Welcome to the Join Up Dots business coaching podcast interview with Jonathan Bamber
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Introducing Jonathan Bamber
Todays guest, joining us on the Join Up Dots free podcast interview is Jonathan Bamber a professor in physical geography.
He then spent eight years in the Department of Space and Climate Physics, University College London before returning to Bristol in 1996.
So we can say that he is more than a bit clever to say the least.
But if you think that today’s show is simply about a supremely educated man who is living a life without struggle then think again.
A few years back he was in a position that is nothing short of horrific.
How The Dots Joined Up For Jonathan
After a mountaineering accident, our guest found himself laying for days on a tiny shelf high above the safety of the ground, with his leg literally hanging on by a thread.
A rock that bounced down the mountain and ricocheted off a ledge, had crushed his lower leg halfway between ankle and knee.
The impact sheared through both bones and removed a big chunk of his leg.
For days Jonathan Bamber lay and watched it loosely flap around, afraid it might just drop off. Powerless to stop gangrene set in, and all the while his leg moving closer and closer to being lost forever.
And if that is where you might think his story finishes then think again, as with so many tales on Join Up Dots, the worst moments in someone’s life can actually be the starting point to something remarkable, and that is certainly the case today.
So lets bring onto the show to start joining up dots, the one and only Mr Jonathan Bamber.
During the show we discussed such weighty topics with Jonathan Bamber such as:
How as a child he was fascinated with the natural world and has never lost the thrill of gaining more knowledge of what is around us all.
How he can see why the ancients were so fascinated by the night sky, when you see the stars and galaxies from the higher atmospheres of a mountain.
How he loves to find his limits and then push past to see what is possible.
Why be responds to the words of Helen Keller who said “Life is even a daring adventure or nothing”
Why he feels that the words of Steve Jobs do not do justice to how you create the dream life. It is far more powerful in his view to create stepping stones forward instead of connecting dots in the past.
How To Connect With Jonathan Bamber
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Audio Transcription Of Jonathan Bamber Interview
When we’re young, we have an amazing positive outlook about how great life is going to be. But somewhere along the line we forget to dream and end up settling. Join Up Dots features amazing people who refuse to give up and chose to go after their dreams. This is your blueprint for greatness. So here’s your host live from the back of his garden in the UK. David Ralph.
David Ralph [0:26]
Yes, hello there. Good morning, everybody. This is David Ralph coming from the back of his garden and it’s Episode 202 of the Join Up Dots. We have got a English guy on the phone today, which is which is great, puts a different spin on it. And he is a man who is a professor in physical geography. He graduated from Bristol University with a degree in physics in 1983 and went on to complete a PhD at the Scott Polar Research Institute, University of Cambridge, in glassy ology and remote sensing, I have to ask him what that is because I’ve got no idea when spent eight years in the department of space and climate physics University College London, before returning to Bristol in 1996. So we can say that he’s more been a bit clever, to say the least. But if you think that today’s show is simply about supremely educated man who’s living a life without struggle and think again, as a few years back, he was in a position that is nothing short of horrific. After a mountaineering accident. Our guest found himself laying for days on a tiny shelf high about the safety of the ground, with his leg literally hanging on by a thread, a rock that bounced down the mountain and ricocheted off a ledge and crushed his lower leg halfway between ankle and knee. It makes me feel bad just reading it. The impact shared through both bones and removed a big chunk of his leg. But days he lay and watched it loosely flap around afraid it might just drop off powerless to stop gangrene set in an order while his leg moving closer and closer to being lost forever. And a fat is where you might think the storey finishes think again. As we’ve so many towels and Join Up Dots, the worst moments someone’s life can actually be the starting point to something remarkable. And that is certainly the case today. So let’s bring on to the show to start Join Up Dots, the one and only Mr. Jonathan Bamber, how are you, Jonathan?
Jonathan Bamber [2:11]
Pretty good. Thank you.
David Ralph [2:13]
That was a very low key response. I said that before we record as English we live in low key bits, don’t we? We just kind of go Yes, I’m okay. Thank you very much.
Jonathan Bamber [2:23]
Well, no, I’m good. I’m good. I’ve been, I’ve been worse, I’ve been better. Well, you have been worse. I
David Ralph [2:29]
mean, you I’m gonna counter that later that he actually when I was reading it, it made me cringe. So I’m gonna have to sort of come into her. But um, you are a guy,
Jonathan Bamber [2:39]
dude, I’ll send you some of the photos if you like,
David Ralph [2:42]
I’m going to do that. And I’m going to my my wife wants to lose weight. So if I put them around the kitchen table, that would be a good thing. She can just glance and just push her pork chops away from herself? Because I think
Jonathan Bamber [2:52]
it would be a very effective deterrent to eating.
David Ralph [2:55]
Yeah, I think so as well. So you are you know, cut to the chase. You’re very clever guy. You you’ve done some really clever stuff. And clever stuff. I have no idea what it is. So in Join Up Dots fashion, when you as a kid, did you want to be you know, a glass ecologist? If that’s the word for it? Did you want to
Jonathan Bamber [3:13]
know what David? I mean? A lot of people asked me that question. Because for many, many, many people who, let’s say, aren’t scientists or don’t work in the field? They’ve never met a glaciologist before, it’s it’s quite an unusual sort of profession thing to study. And so this is quite a common question, you know, well, did you dream of being glaciologist? Of course, when I was a kid, I didn’t even know what glaciologist was. So the answer to that is no. But what I would say is, I and I do remember this from from my childhood, I’d always been fascinated by the natural environment. And it was just an innate interest. I, the world around me, always amazed me, I found it kind of exciting, beautiful, sometimes scary, but just really wonderous. And I guess that that was always there in the background and and at school, I I did well in scientists, I was good at Sciences. I enjoyed them. And so that’s what I pursued as a degree because, you know, the tender age of 17. You know, does anybody really know where they want to go with their lives? Probably not. Maybe some do. But I I didn’t, I enjoyed physics, it was a great subject. I mean, the thing I love I loved about physics was that it encompasses the whole universe, everything from subatomic particles to that the size of the cosmos, and, you know, the the origins of the universe, it’s, it’s pretty grand. So I did the physics degree. But I guess I, you know, at the background, there was still this this love and interest and natural environment, and I found a way of combining the two through soo glaciology,
David Ralph [5:06]
you are fortunate that you have managed to do that. Because time and time again, we here on the show that people’s passions when I was a kid just get lost along the way. And so for the fact that you were fascinated as a child about what was going on in the world around you, and you managed to find a segue into Well, not a segue, you worked very hard, and you had to study and you had to sort of get to where you are. But that is quite lucky, isn’t it? Don’t you think? I don’t
Jonathan Bamber [5:34]
I’m not sure I call it luck. But it’s, I feel very fortunate,
David Ralph [5:39]
fortunate, very fortunate a better word Yeah,
Jonathan Bamber [5:41]
to be to be able to do something that I find fascinating, that I’m passionate about and that I enjoy. And that I mean, by and large every day, you know, is different. I think the other thing I’d say is that I I’m inherently an inquisitive person. I think that’s where the mountaineering comes from, because the mountaineering was, was kind of designed for exploration, exploring the planet, exploring the mountains, exploring yourself and the limits of your own capability as well. And
as an academic in this field,
David Ralph [6:17]
it’s, it’s, it’s all about discovery,
Jonathan Bamber [6:18]
and learning new things. And, you know, I would say pretty much every day, I learned something new about the world around me, which, which is wonderful. I mean, I know, I know, you you sort of ask the kind of aphorisms that people have, and but when I when I quite like, and this isn’t necessarily my favourite one I quite like is that, you know, if you do something, you love you, you never need to work again, that that is a utopia, isn’t it? And in sort of thing, and, you know, look, or I, I, you know, there are, there are things in my job, which are, like, you know, pretty much any job, you know, kind of tedious at times, and,
you know, doll law, repetitive, whatever. But by and large,
you know, the, the, the, the research that I do is, is really fascinating and exciting. And it’s all related to climate change research. And so I feel it’s something that’s really pretty critical for the health of the planet as well.
David Ralph [7:16]
So if we went back in time, and we looked at your love of physics, was it the subject matter? Or was it a teacher who was a very good because I went through physics, and now as an adult, I think, yes, I would find it very interesting. But I remember my teacher, and I say he’s named, he’s probably still not alive, Mr. Pope Wayne, he was he was half lunatic, that we’re just kind of abuse people for the sake of abusing it. And in my days, and you’re probably How old are you, gentlemen?
Jonathan Bamber [7:48]
Well, you’re going to edit this out
David Ralph [7:51]
now keep it live, keep it alive.
Unknown Speaker [7:53]
David Ralph [7:54]
I’m 44. So in school terms, we were Blackboard, this this, this guy used to have this Blackboard rubber. And if anyone was talking, this lump of wood would fly across the classroom, more often than not hitting a child that had nothing to do with it. With a big cloud of chalk coming up, you know, you couldn’t operate in today’s life doing those kind of things. So you were kind of half on edge, half fearful of this blow. So the content never came across? Did you have a teacher who inspired you in physics?
Jonathan Bamber [8:27]
does sound like your teacher needed to improve his aim a bit?
David Ralph [8:32]
He went, Wow, wow.
Jonathan Bamber [8:37]
Yeah, it’s a good question. I do I you know, it’s one of those things. I think we you know, we all remember our teachers, don’t we, they, they do leave a very important marked impression on us. Because you know, you it’s formative years, and you spend a lot of time with them.
I think, I think I’m not sure. It was it was really either, actually, I think it was possibly both that my physics teacher was he was he must have been a good teacher, because, you know, I did well in physics. So I think he was he was a good teacher, and Dave’s enthusiastic about the subject. But I had other teachers that were equally, you know, good and enthusiastic. In fact, I remember. So back in my day, it was old levels is that you used to do when you were 16? Not Not Not GCSE, since they are now. And I, I love them. Almost all the subjects actually, you know, is this natural inquisitiveness. And, and I loved economics and history as well and did quite well in those and I had great, great economics teacher, and, you know, he was really keen for me to carry on with that. And, you know, you, you know, you could have, you could have gone in a completely different direction. But I think I had had a lover of physics, the, the subject, I think one of the things that attracted to me, it to me was astronomy, actually. And I still have a telescope now, which I didn’t get out. So off, but I still find aspects of astronomy. Fascinating, you know, so. So, if I get my telescope out, I the closest galaxy to arrow, this this galaxy, the galaxy we’re in, is Andromeda, and you get your telescope out, and you look at it, and it’s just this tiny, tiny, faint blur. And that tiny, faint blow contains millions and millions of stars, millions of solar systems, just like solar system that were in here. And you know, and that galaxy is one of 10s of thousands of galaxies. And so you just realise when you look through your telescope, look at that, how utterly insignificant this solar system is this planet is we are in it comparison to the enormity of the universe. And it’s quite a humbling sort of thing. I think.
David Ralph [11:04]
I remember being down in Australia, and I grew up in the United Kingdom. So basically, he’s a bit different now, because I turned the street lights out at 12 o’clock. So the stars seem brighter. But there was always street lights all the time. So you didn’t get those those crystal clear stars. And I remember being left in the field in Australia, and you literally couldn’t see the hand in front of your face. I’ve never experienced blackness like that before. And I looked up and I suddenly thought, wow, the stars are different. And it took me a while to realise that of course, I was in the southern hemisphere. So I was seeing different stars. But I remember feeling so tiny at that point, because it was just like I was the centre of the Earth, not even a centre of the Earth I was the centre of the universe and beyond and beyond and beyond. And it is a kind of is mind blowing when you have those moments in your life. And I’ve only ever had that once. Because most of the time as I say you’re driving along this car is going past you and you just don’t get that feeling all of loneliness I think
Jonathan Bamber [12:04]
so. I don’t know if you’ve if you’ve been in the mountains, much remote mountains, but one of the one of the absolutely incredible things about being in high altitude mountains away from any civilization, you know, some remote areas, say the Himalayas or something is the night skies because there’s there’s no light pollution and the atmosphere is a bit thinner. If you’re three or 4000 metres, you’ve moved quite a lot of the what’s called the troposphere. And that you can see why impressed dark times. People worshipped you know, the aspects of the sky because it is it is incredible. It’s absolutely incredible. Just looking out there at you know, just just with your eyes, 10s of thousands of stars, you know, when when you’ve got a really good clear night sky, you can see the Milky Way quite clearly high altitude, and it is a it is really humbling and or inspiring at the same time.
David Ralph [13:04]
So do the things just look brighter? Do they look bigger?
Jonathan Bamber [13:08]
You just see more of it much, much more of it.
David Ralph [13:11]
When like, this is a question, I wasn’t gonna pose it to you, but you are an educated man, and you have got an interest, they say you are an educated man, I got me out levels as well. And that was as bad as good as he went. So you went further than I did? Do you believe that there’s life out there?
Jonathan Bamber [13:37]
That’s it’s a tricky question to answer. I mean, I think if you look at look at it from a probabilistic perspective, purely in terms of the number of solar system so, so a burgeoning or kind of a growing area of research in astronomy now is exploration of what are called exoplanets. These are planets in other solar systems that are outside of our own solar system, our solar system is you know, it comprises the sun and the planets that surround it. And with some of the sophisticated satellite and ground based telescope technology we’ve got now you can actually did not directly see planets in in other solar systems, but you can detect their signature from changes in the amount of light being emitted by stars from from, you know, from many, many light years away from here. And scientists have detected a number of these exoplanets that are at a distance from their sun, which means that they, they wouldn’t be too hot, they wouldn’t be too cold, they would be about the right kind of temperature to sustain life. And so I think from a probabilistic point of view, it seems extremely likely that there is life elsewhere, having the universe whether there is intelligent life elsewhere in the universe is a different question
David Ralph [15:06]
altogether. I don’t believe there is, I believe, I believe there is probably some kind of little lie plant life out there somewhere. It’s got to be as in there, but actually, you know, the classic et I suppose. It’s not gonna happen. So we would know already. Surely?
Jonathan Bamber [15:23]
I’m not at all. Not at all. I mean,
David Ralph [15:26]
you know, Jonathan, is my show in a certain amount of agreeing that I like?
Jonathan Bamber [15:33]
Well, you shouldn’t have people like me.
Yeah, no, I mean, universe is big place. And, you know, how, how much of it? Have we explored ourselves? directly? None? None. We have we have one satellite called Voyager that has, and it’s an incredible feat of human endeavour. But it has actually left the solar system now. It’s gone beyond the limit of our own solar system. But that that’s it, it’s you know, it’s it’s, it’s it’s in, in terms of the size of the universe, it’s still very close to our own Sun. It’s nowhere near another star. So, um, you know, we we haven’t explored anything at the university yet.
David Ralph [16:25]
But we haven’t explored a great date on earth halfway. There’s there’s vast proportions of this, that we’re actually on that are still especially under the sea, we just had no idea. So what’s going down there? Does that surprise you with your, your kind of scientists head on? Do you think that we should spend more time focusing in on what’s here more than what’s up there?
Jonathan Bamber [16:47]
I think that’s a very good point, actually. Because, you know, so I’m a glaciologist, and most of my research is focused on greens and Antarctica. And there were parts of the Antarctic continent, it’s, it’s bigger, it’s one and a half times the size of Australia, it’s bigger than the terminus USA, it’s a huge continent. Most of it, almost all of it is covered with ice. And there are parts of the bedrock of Antarctica that are less well mapped than the far side of the Moon.
David Ralph [17:19]
That’s astonishing, isn’t it?
Jonathan Bamber [17:23]
So it is, it’s, it’s a very good point that, you know, there are, we don’t know, we like to think we know quite a lot about our own planet. But there’s an awful lot We still don’t understand we haven’t explored in the age of I mean, actually, this, this goes back to some work research that we published a year ago, where we discovered the longest canyon in the world that was underneath the Greenland ice sheet. And, you know, in and we did, it had only just been discovered, it’s over 750 kilometres long. And it, you know, was discovered in 2013. And in the age, when you have things like Google Street View, where you can access from virtually every street in pretty much, you know, every city around the world, you know, almost people people think
David Ralph [18:19]
Jonathan Bamber [18:21]
you know, the planet is incredibly well mapped, and that we do know, know what’s there. But we don’t in a lot of places. And I think that’s, that’s that’s one point. But more important, particularly related to, you know, what’s going to happen to the planet in the future is that that the interaction between different components to the atmosphere, the ocean, the ice, the biosphere, and humans, is a very complex one. And we don’t really understand how that works very well.
David Ralph [18:46]
So So where do you get your biggest thrill? In your professional life? Obviously, you’re interested in sort of mountaineering and stuff, because we are going to talk about your accident a little bit later. But what gives you the biggest thrill is it discovered bring something new?
Jonathan Bamber [19:04]
And so so, so I often get asked, you know, glaciology, did you, you know, dream? You can be that, but yeah, don’t often get asked that question. And I think, I mean, the most exciting thing for a scientist is to make if you like, a new discovery, and it doesn’t, by discovery, that that’s a very broad term for just some new understanding about the system that they’re interested in. So you know, if you’re a biochemist, it might be some new new, you know, reaction between cell and some chemical. You know, medicine, there’s all sorts of examples, you know, and in my field, it might be some new interaction, or, you know, like the example I just said about this, the green and Canyon. In fact, if your listeners want to, to find out about it, someone’s written Wikipedia page on it, and I think it’s called, well, if you look up Greenland Canyon, I think they it’s the Grand Canyon,
David Ralph [20:05]
Greenland, I’ll link to the show notes.
Jonathan Bamber [20:07]
Yeah. Um, and so, you know, that was that was incredible, you know, just to find something so big, it’s 750, you know, 450 miles long, and nobody knew it was there. Things like that are amazing. I mean, that’s a kind of something like that. It’s a bit of a once in a lifetime sort of discovery. But, you know,
finding out something new about
how our planet works is a great experience. It’s, it’s, it’s really,
David Ralph [20:36]
Do you think we will run out of something new? Do you think there’ll be a point where we kind of go? Well, actually, I think we’ve done it time to move on?
Jonathan Bamber [20:46]
No, no. So I think I think I, you know, a good analogy there is mountaineering.
So, leading mountain is, you know, what, what the new equivalent of the discovery is to have math and science and mountaineering is a new route or to climb and I’m climbed peak. And that’s what we were doing in the Himalayas, it was an unplanned peak. So it’s a virgin territory, it’s a discovery, it’s a it’s a new mountain, nobody’s been ever been to the top of it. You know, that? That’s, that’s quite exciting. But of course, you know, as as more and more people get into mountaineering, and as time passes, techniques and equipment improve, an awful lot of these mountains have become climbed and the roots have been done. But we are we are an imaginative and ingenious species. And we find new challenges and new forms of exploration in mountaineering. So, you know, there are different types of challenging mountaineering, that that that now exist like, very, what we’re called Alpine a sense of the biggest peaks. That’s so back in the 1960s, When, when, when we were trying to summit the highest mountains in the world, we use what we call siege tactics, where you’d have hundreds and hundreds of borders, and you have this massive, almost military style operation to get the top of mountain now, the challenge is to try and do it as a pair, two people moving very fast, very light. And that’s quite high risk, because there is no no opportunity for a mistake, because you are very dependent, you know, there’s no backup there. But there are advantages, you know, you, you, you, if you’re moving quickly, for example, you’re less likely to get caught in a storm, which is one of the biggest risks high mountains. So I don’t think we’ll ever run out of things to explore in science or in our lives. You know,
David Ralph [22:54]
I’m gonna play some words of a gentleman called Jim Carrey that talks about taking risk on the you love a man, I’m gonna talk about the mountaineering because as you were talking about that, so many questions with popping into my head, based around risk, and I’d be interested to see whether you buy into what this guy is saying, This is Jim Carrey.
Jim Carrey [23:11]
My father could have been a great comedian, but he didn’t believe that that was possible for him. And so he made a conservative choice. Instead, he got a safe job as an accountant. And when I was 12 years old, he was let go from that safe job. And our family had to do whatever we could to survive. I learned many great lessons from my father, not the least of which was that you can fail at what you don’t want. So you might as well take a chance on doing what you love.
David Ralph [23:38]
So he talks about doing what you love. And obviously mountaineering is something that you love. And as he was talking about it going, right, the risky thing is going up in twos and trying to get there as quickly as possible. I was sitting there thinking, why, why would you want to put yourself into that? That kind of risky element is obviously not part of my character, I, I wouldn’t gain anything from the other than the feeling of I could potentially die. Why do it? Are you somebody who is not risk averse? But are you somebody that sees the end product? We’re going for, like Jim Carrey, we say?
Jonathan Bamber [24:15]
No, I think there’s a number of different things there. And actually, I’ll give you a quote, which I I really like it, which is, which was it comes from Helen Keller, and its life is either a daring adventure or nothing.
And what I like about that is, the adventure is whatever you make it, David, you know, for me, mountaineering was one of the adventures that that I used to enjoy. But it doesn’t have to be that. And, you know, what, we’re all we’re all very different people. And I think actually, we’re all the same species. And I think, the vast majority of needs, it needs some sort of adventure, some kind of something to light up far in our lives to keep us alive. And it can be anything, and it doesn’t have to have anything to do with a physical risk or risk life or anything like that. It could be just doing something different. So for example, it could be joining a choir, you know, oh, no, I can’t possibly sing in front of the audience. You know, there is no risk of death or serious injury there. But you know, it might be something that you just think, well, I like singing, give it a go. It, it. It the challenge, the risk, the adventure it, it can take many different forms. And, you know, mountaineering is considered or seen as something that has a high risk associated with it, but it everything has a risk, you know, the
David Ralph [25:49]
you’re not going to die in acquired by that that’s the that’s the difference.
Jonathan Bamber [25:53]
You can die inside, you could die of embarrassment. You know, it’s a different sort of thing. And get over that, Jonathan,
David Ralph [26:00]
you wouldn’t you mean, you wouldn’t, you wouldn’t get over dying. He wouldn’t get over dying, falling off a mountain pretty much Nice job done. But yeah, standing up and not hitting a note or two in a choir, I think is different. Yeah.
Jonathan Bamber [26:12]
Yeah, it is. Yes. And no, David, because, you know what? Nobody, nobody goes mountaineering, with the purpose of dying with the purpose of injuring themselves. The risk is, is part of the excitement, part of the adventure. And I think if you took away any sense of risk, it would, it would lose its attraction to a lot of people, but not not entirely. So. So I used to do, there were plenty of mountaineering boots or experiences I had, where the risk was close to zero, you know, there was really no risk, but it was still beautiful, it was still fantastic, just to be there to be in that incredibly serene environment, maybe on your own or just with a couple of friends. So so. I mean, you know, when you when you do the sort of more remote the more serious kind of mountaineering challenges, then then, yeah, the risks go up a bit. But, but that’s not that’s not necessarily the reason you’re doing it.
David Ralph [27:19]
But we had Kathy O’Dowd on episode 88. And it was a fascinating discussion, because I started it. And literally every show, I start with a way of thinking, and from talking to the guests for an hour, my thinking changes, and I think that’s the way life should be, you know, and I just generally thought that the thrill of getting to the top of Everest was standing at the top and looking around and going well, I’m at the top of the world. And she was quite clear. And she was saying, No, it’s not about that. For her. It was about the process, it was about the actual challenge of seeing whether she could do it
Jonathan Bamber [27:55]
absolutely. completely, completely. Every, every challenge in my life, it’s been the process. So we may come on to this, but you know, and for me, that’s it, I like I like to see where my limits are. That’s, that’s, that’s and, you know, it doesn’t have to be a mountain, it can be anything. So. So I, one of the things about my job, which we, you know, we talked about earlier, is is I quite like really challenging problems, because it just it tests you it just sees, you know, how how far can you go? How, how far can you push yourself to understand, perhaps some really difficult problem. So that’s a mental thing. But then there are physical ones. So in the last couple of years, I’ve I’ve will maybe come on to this, but you know, I’ve started doing ultra marathons and, and, you know, one of the things that maybe we talk about is that people tend to create their own limits for themselves, they don’t realise where you know, that they create these invisible boundaries all the time. And I think I’d done that for myself after my contacts, then I thought, well, you know, I, I can’t do you know that much, but but I accidentally ended up entering an ultramarathon with a friend who’s going to visit him a climbing friend, actually, and the only weekend that he was free said, Well, I’m doing this, I’m doing this trail marathon 30 mile off road run. And so I’ll be out most of the day on Sunday. And I said, Oh, well, I’ll come up anyway, in an acid reflux, I might as well give it a go with you, you know, keep the company and I just thought I’d go around for a bit. But anyway, I finished the thing. And and I’ve been doing some longer and harder ultramarathons night, what I love about those is that, you know, it doesn’t, it doesn’t matter where you come, you know, first or last, or in the middle? It is it’s an internal kind of battle in it. And you’ve got a lot of people time to think about whether you can do it. And, you know, the challenge that is ahead of you, because some of these races might last, you know, 1213 hours or something. And that’s a long time to be thinking about, you know, the next 30 miles or
David Ralph [30:14]
whatever it is. Have you We aren’t going to talk about the mountaineering accident next. But have you found your limits already? Have you? Or are you still getting to that point and being able to go one step further?
Jonathan Bamber [30:30]
In what sense physically,
David Ralph [30:32]
yeah, and physically, when when you are in a situation I imagine up in this or North Pole area, and it’s freezing cold and maybe a storms coming through? And you’re having to push yourself further than most people have to push themselves in their employment? Do you naturally have that? No, I can go because I’ve already done it. Or have you ever got to a point you thought now this is enough? This is Tony enough.
Jonathan Bamber [30:58]
There’s a you know, there’s there’s a difference between being reckless, and, you know, exploring your limits, or, and it’s really important to know where your limits are because you know, it, they’re not limitless. I I couldn’t I couldn’t wander around in a T shirt in, you know, minus 30 degrees and be okay, after now, you know, that that’s just stupid. And so that, that the will we you know, there are all things there are things that are beyond our capability. And that that’s that’s, that’s clear, you know, that’s obvious. And there were plenty of people, you know, I if I said to you, right, let’s go and climb this extremely difficult mountain, you know, it would be insane because you haven’t got the skills and you haven’t experienced do it, it just wouldn’t be an option. But I still think that we have a tendency as a kind of species to to create boundaries for ourselves, which these illusionary boundaries, which are ones that we’ve developed through experience, you know, perhaps because we failed at something and we didn’t like that. And we think, Well, you know, that’s it. Obviously, we can’t do it.
David Ralph [32:13]
Is that a key part to life? And do you think if you look across the planet like you do, I people generally holding themselves back? are they keeping themselves small?
Jonathan Bamber [32:26]
Well, it is a gross generalisation.
David Ralph [32:28]
That’s what I do on this show me.
Jonathan Bamber [32:31]
Okay, well, I mean, and I think so. So, generally, I think we have a tendency to do that. But you know, you, when you started, when we started off, you were sort of saying how the English a very reserved Americans, kind of not, you know, perhaps it’s a cultural thing to some extent, you know, maybe maybe there are some cultures like Americans who have a much more go getting sort of attitude, and they know, no limits. And actually, I work very closely with a lot of Americans, American colleagues, and I’ve lived there for a while on study labour and stuff and, and I think they are all Americans I’m, I met No, they are much better at say, changing direction. So I’ve met many who have had quite a few different careers in their life. And that’s a lot less common in in Europe, I think, as a general, they just they, they, they, the boundaries aren’t quite so. So well defined for them. And so you know, maybe a cultural thing.
David Ralph [33:26]
Because I do think that the English once again, sweeping generalisation, but from my experience, the English don’t like to celebrate success. Now, you know, I’ve had successes previous show. And I’ve had to be pushed by my friends in America to promote those successes, where I kind of go, Oh, no, don’t really want to do this. You got to get it out there, get it out there. And they’re very sort of gung ho with the, you know, if you’ve achieved it, celebrate it. But the English are very much like, okay, I’ve done that. Let’s move on to the next thing and don’t celebrate the successes that come into their life. It’s a I’m really, and he’s a fading of mine. Definitely. But no matter how much I achieve on a certain target, when I get there, I kind of almost blink and then go right. Okay, let’s move on to the next thing.
Jonathan Bamber [34:11]
Yeah, I think that’s I think that’s absolutely right. I remember when the, but I think this is this is sometimes a trait of very successful people, but I can’t remember his name, the the jockey who had 4000 wins, which is a record. Who was that?
David Ralph [34:32]
Frankie Dettori? Was it Frankie?
Jonathan Bamber [34:33]
I think it was Frank was was him? I think so. I think it was, and they were interviewing him. And he just, you know, he just had his 4000 win, which is pretty impressive, you know? And it’s, it’s a record, you know, I nobody else has won 17 horse racing events and, and he instead of celebrating it, he’s saying, Yeah, well, yeah, I’ve got a couple of races coming out this week. I’m not sure how they’re going to go. And it was that kind of mindset.
David Ralph [35:06]
I was speaking to a chap the other day, who sat next, he didn’t give me the name. But I imagine it’s a biggie. And he said, he was sitting next to a it kind of legend that we would all know about. So I kind of felt like I think of maybe two or three of them. And he said to him, you know, how did you become a billionaire? How did you achieve what you wanted to do? And the chap sort of said, Well, to be honest, we tried a bit of bass, and we tried a bit of that, and the time was right, I think any Something happened, you know, and there was a very woolly blazer, yeah, very underplayed answer, even though he is somebody that has created something that we all use, apparently, on a daily basis. So you think that there was a big plan, a master plan that he was going to achieve? And he didn’t he just sort of say, Well, it wasn’t quite a lot, because we work really hard. But we just tried stuff and things occasionally worked.
Jonathan Bamber [36:00]
I mean, I think again, and this is another gross generalisation, but very successful people don’t tend to linger on the successes, because they’re always looking forward to the next, the next thing they want to achieve.
David Ralph [36:11]
What What is your next thing? I mean, I hadn’t going to the mountaineering accident, because it is in front of me, and I keep on reading parts of it and think, Oh, this is horrible. But what is your next big thing to achieve in your life?
Jonathan Bamber [36:23]
Well, I think world domination really
David Ralph [36:28]
you could do bad English always good at World domination.
Jonathan Bamber [36:30]
Well, they were a couple of hundred years ago, David and stuff and I think we’ve always been the things in films, I think it’s sort of moving east isn’t it really that that sort of thing. So Asia is going to become increasingly powerful force in in global economics and global politics but
David Ralph [36:53]
there are I did this
Jonathan Bamber [36:54]
there’s not a thing that I want to achieve. I you know, I don’t have any, the project that I must do, but there are many things that I I’m trying to achieve. Work wise, there are some real big challenges in my field research line, I’m tackling at the minute which I sort of quite not technical, but you know, some involved with the work that we do. And then there’s challenges that I I’ve got in my private life you’ve like that that that I’m going for as well you know, big races and continuing to sort of stretch myself in terms of what I can do and achieve
David Ralph [37:43]
the astonishing thing about what you are aiming for Bo is when you was on that cliff with your leg hanging off the thought of doing ultra marathons obviously you didn’t even occur the default of just getting off the mountain was the forefront of your mind but you have a become so much in that period of time take us back to how actually happened because he was on there for several days when you just hanging out
Jonathan Bamber [38:11]
so um, are there was it there were 10 on expedition in or but but there I think six six climbers and fault trackers and and but I but there were just two of us on this unclimbed peak in a quite remote part of the Himalayas called the Kisha, which is quite close to the Indian Pakistan border is no disputed territory now and can’t easily access it. But this was back in 1992. And we were we had been on the mountain for about four days I think and a storm had blown through and we were on a what’s called a bevvy bivouac ledge, a small lead, and we sat out the storm and we, we sort after it had gone, we carried on and we were quite close to the summit. It’s about a 6000 metre peak roughly. And we were about I think, two rope lengths below the summit and my climbing partner was, above me, leading a pitch, that kind of rope length pitch of the climb. And because it’s snowed, there was a lot of quite a lot of snow on all the rocks and stuff. It’s called spindrift, you know, all this dusting of snow. And he was he was kind of pulling up on these rocks and one of them came away. And I wasn’t in the fall I’m but it hit a ledge on the way down and ricocheted off the ledge and then just sort of went into my leg and almost sort of severed my lower leg it went through, like you said, been it went through both bones and took quite a big chunk of the front of my Lego. And so, you know, I’ve thought about this a lot on it. I it’s a truism. But it is it is incredible how in a split second, your life can change completely, you know, from from one state to another state. So, you know, seconds before the impact. I was kind of fit healthy, strong, enthusiastic, and, and, and, like excited mountain a couple of seconds, you know, a second afterwards, I was someone in like, you know, mortal danger, fighting for his life. And, and I wasn’t big, I you know, I lost a lot of blood and the pain was fairly severe. And so I wasn’t able to do anything for myself, you know, I was I was in pretty bad shape. And so my climbing partner, basically you have to kind of getting down back down to the ledge where we pivot. And he couldn’t get me down on his own. I was you know, I wouldn’t wouldn’t have survived. So he he had to leave me there and abseiled down the route. And to to go to back down to base camp where the other climbers were, so that they could call out the rescue. And so that they could then come back up to me with some meds and like some strong painkillers, antibiotics, bandages, splint and stuff like that to get me off the mountain. And so yeah, he had off. And, you know, I guess Honestly, I thought that was the last I’ll see if anyone. Because Yeah, it was a pretty dire, pretty dire situation.
David Ralph [41:52]
They did. Well, it’s more than dire. But But when you’re laying there, and you think this is it, this is the end? Do you feel kind of content? Or do you go? God, there’s so much more I want to do? How, what sort of, how’s your spirit at that time?
Jonathan Bamber [42:10]
Yeah, that that is someone that is something that a lot of people have asked me they face. So so I was on the online honest lead for about 15 hours. And they say, Well, what were you thinking about? And, you know, it’s quite long time ago, and I suppose a lot of it was a lot of the time, you know, you you went into a sort of survival mode.
So yeah, I, you know, I did go through my mind that I wouldn’t, wouldn’t get off the mountain, but but I was also quite preoccupied with trying to think about how, how I might get off, and you know, how I might survive and, and so I constantly going through my mind was a calculation of how long it would take a climbing partner to get down to base camp. And for someone at base camp to go down to the head of the Valley, where there was a kind of small village, which is about two days walk with a sack or something, and, and to call out where they had a radio to call up the Indian Army, who would then get a chopper up. And so I kept thinking, you know, how long would it take before I see a chocolatier? And it was really, you know, I was hanging on to this idea that somehow this chocolate would come and pluck me off the mountain. And a lot of it a lot. So it was, I guess that’s quite mundane, but you know, I was just sort of thinking, Well, you know, long as it takes taken. And I wonder if Angus got down. Okay, and because because in in mountaineering, that the most more accidents happen on the way down then at any other time, because it’s the only time when you’re completely reliant on the road, because you’re sailing off the road. And if an anchor fails, you’re dead. You know, if you are off the end of the road, which does happen, you know, you go on, and you
David Ralph [44:01]
see tiredness, as well.
Jonathan Bamber [44:03]
And, and you’re, you’re, you’ve been on the go for day, so you’re tired, you’ve probably run out of food, you may have run out of water. And yeah, so you’re pretty much you know, you sort of your limits, really.
So it was that it was that kind of thing that I guess I was thinking about a lot of the time, and then, you know, after after about 50 hours when I kind of thought, Well, you know, they should have been a helicopter by now. Surely, you know, I, I guess I guess the thoughts became a little bit more kind of desperate. And you might say, like, Well, yeah, this is it something. But, you know, you’ve got to remember that I was I was laid out. I was in a sleeping bag in a baby bag. Like up this huge face, though. There was nothing I can do. There was no way I could go. So. So all I could do is just sort of thing really.
David Ralph [44:56]
So so what what was harder? The actual Cliff bear? Or the recuperation mentally what challenged you most?
Jonathan Bamber [45:06]
Oh, well, no, I mean, that’s, that’s, that’s, that’s, that’s a that’s a kind of easy one. And because I had no idea how long it would you know how tough the coming back from that would be because I, I got pretty bad gangrene, I got quite a lot of frostbite damaged because of the lack of circulation to my lower legs. I got frostbite damage all of my foot. And, you know, I lost a lot of blood. So, you know, obviously, obviously, as I’m talking to you, I did get down. But, you know, I was on crutches for three and a half years. And you know, I mean, obviously, people have had much worse accidents, you know, the vendor, paraplegics or in wheelchairs or whatever it is, but, but for me, it was it was pretty tough, not being able to walk. I had an infection in the bone, that’s called osteomyelitis. And so I was pretty unwell for several years, really. And that was that was, you know, pretty hard going. I was it was a bit like having flu for three and a half years, you know, you felt pretty grotty. And I was on injuries antibiotics off and on for that whole time.
David Ralph [46:26]
In and out of hospital, I had nine operations on the leg and a lot of plastic surgery to to place all the missing muscle and skin. And so they took it took a muscle out of my shoulder blade, and they stitched it in vain by vein on the front of my leg is called a free flap.
And that doesn’t look normal. Now I use the word normal, but does it look not the same as you ever one?
Jonathan Bamber [46:52]
No, no, not at all. No, no, no, cuz, cuz? No, because I you know, I lost quite quite a lot of legs. So there was a big and so the whole has been covered up. Now this would put your wife off, right? If she saw the photos of this, I mean, they what they put on the front of my leg, which came out of my shoulder, it looked a bit like a piece of steak. I mean, it literally did look like piece of sirloin. And effectively, that’s what it was is you know for the muscle, and then they took their skin graft off my thigh and put that on the front and on the back of my leg word loss of skin. And so all of that you can see. And it’s not, it’s not the same shape as my leg as the other bits of my leg it sort of sticks out to me because because it’s a muscle, you know, rather than just skin and, and my, my legs two centimetres shorter, I can’t bend my ankle, and I’ve got a lot of frostbite damage on the foot. So it doesn’t look anything like my other leg.
David Ralph [47:50]
But but you know very good hanging on the side of mountains I imagine with a shorter leg.
Jonathan Bamber [47:55]
I don’t do much mountaineering anymore.
David Ralph [48:00]
So now now you are a runner. Are you fitter now than you were before the accident?
Jonathan Bamber [48:06]
Where it’s not I’m now I run I used to so so I use doing old names. Now. I used to do a lot of a lot of running. I mean before before my eyes, but short shorter distance. And And so yeah, so I was on crutches for like three and a half, four years. And then I migrated onto a stick and and the consultant the orthopaedic consults, and you know that I think they tend to err on the conservative side when they’re kind of giving you the prognosis, so that anything else is a bonus. And, you know, they were basically saying that I would be, you know, I would be lucky to be able to walk to the end of the street and back to kind of get the paper on Sunday. And so that was my that was the horizon They gave me that was the prognosis, the outlook on few years. In fact, I mean, I’ve skipped over, it’s been it’s been too long to go into gory detail. But for after about three years, I was looking at having a amputation and having a prosthetic. But I cannot come on in. And
David Ralph [49:17]
the doctors were basically putting limits on you when they mentally they were not saying one yeah, achieve?
Jonathan Bamber [49:25]
Yeah, I guess I guess so. I mean, you know, I, you know, we could say they were trying to be realistic. But they Yes, they absolutely did, they said, you know, this is this is kind of your outcome. And in fact, one of the reasons they wanted me to have an amputation was because they felt that my, what I would be able to do would be much more with artificial limb upsetting than with the leg that I had, because because of the fuse tank or damage to the football, but they kind of felt that it was so such poor state that really just that it would be a better option. But as a strange thing about that, and, you know, it’s all about your body image really. And I, I kind of just didn’t see myself as someone with a prosthetic limb. And you know that that wasn’t that wasn’t the image on how to
David Ralph [50:26]
be transition from the clip to now, did that just cement the inner strength that you had in you? Or did he actually help you go to the next level?
Jonathan Bamber [50:42]
I think I’ve, I’ve always kind of had a sense of perseverance. But I know and I know, it’s a terrible kind of truism or, you know, abused, but you know, then my climbing was life changing, you know, in physically and emotionally mentally, you know, it was life changing. It changed all sorts of things. It changed what I couldn’t, couldn’t do. And yeah, so and and I think the process of realising that actually, the boundaries that, you know, maybe have been set by the medical profession were ones that were not artificial, but you know, could be surmounted. Yeah. has some changed my outlook a little bit?
David Ralph [51:35]
Are you ready minded? I Are you have somebody that if somebody says you can’t do it, you are a kind of person?
Jonathan Bamber [51:41]
Yeah, quite possibly. Yeah.
David Ralph [51:43]
Quite possibly. Definitely.
Jonathan Bamber [51:46]
I mean, I like to challenge David, I do like to challenge and, and as I think I said earlier on, you know, I and so these challenges that I set myself, they’re not. And so some people have sometimes described me as very competitive. I don’t think that’s an accurate description, actually, because I like doing competition. But the The only reason I do competition, like let’s say, a running race or an ultramarathon is not because I want to win, but it’s because it’s a great way of pushing, pushing your own limits and your boundaries and seeing where they are, and seeing what you can achieve. And, you know, what if, if, if, if I you know, if I hadn’t entered the ultra marathon with my friends in Yorkshire, you know, I would never have never dreamed of doing one.
David Ralph [52:30]
It’s always about peer group isn’t it really is the people that surround yourself that really can take you to the next level, again,
Jonathan Bamber [52:39]
I think they can show you show you what’s possible sometimes and, you know, show you maybe what you hadn’t thought of yourself. And you can sort of see opportunities elsewhere. And so I think it’s the same in, in, in, in work as well, like, I’m in one of the top, you know, I wherever you want to put but one of the top job departments in the UK, top two or three children. And everybody here is, you know, an exceptional academic, and for me at a very high level. And that’s a great environment, because you you sort of see someone having some great success, and you think it is possible to do that, to try this and go for this and try something that you know, maybe you thought was beyond beyond the realms of the discipline or your your capability, or whatever it was
David Ralph [53:33]
being, I wasn’t gonna ask you this question, but it just occurred to me, you know, when you listen to the radio, and they always have some real weird fact. And it always seems to be that scientists have just discovered that if women don’t eat chocolate, then they will lose weight, that kind of thing. Yeah. Did you listen to that? And actually go, No, scientists wouldn’t do that. They wouldn’t waste their time on that. I’m on a groups of scientists around the world doing these bizarre studies on stuff we hear about, because it seems to be the worthwhile stuff comes up once in a blue moon. And every day, somebody tells me some fact that one minute, you should drink beer next minute, you shouldn’t drink beer. And it’s always scientists, right?
Jonathan Bamber [54:11]
Look, I mean, I’m sure you know, this, but the media, which is what you’re talking about, need a storey. They so if you’re talking about newspaper, they need to sell newspapers, if it’s radio or TV, you know, they need to maximise their then viewers or listeners or whatever it is. And so, the the, the the actual, the actual results, the scientific research is turned into a soundbite. And in the process, you can lose the true meaning and why the research was done and, and perhaps the the the other aspects of the research, which will possibly more useful to science. And so is these kind of one liners sound bites are not really what the science is all about. It’s just kind of a storey really. And sometimes they’re sometimes they’re never accurate. And they somewhat sum up exactly what what the research is about. And other times, it’s just kind of plucking something out, you know, and it may be out of context, or it may not.
David Ralph [55:12]
So you don’t think I should pay too much attention to it, Jonathan.
Jonathan Bamber [55:16]
I don’t think you should think that scientists are just all doing a load of nonsense, because you hear a storey about someone who realises that you know, you don’t eat chocolate, you won’t get fat, or whatever it is.
David Ralph [55:26]
There you go, I’m gonna I’m gonna learn from that I’m gonna switch. I’m only gonna listen to podcast from now. And that’s it. It’s only got factual content. This is part of the show. But I want to play the theme. And this is the words of Steve Jobs. And this really links closely to the journeys that we all have in our life. And whether you can actually choose your big die is there a moment in your life that actually was when Jonathan barber become the gentleman that we he is today and the one that we’re hearing. So I’m going to play the words. And when it fades out, we’re going to ask whether they have any relevance to you. This is Steve Jobs.
Steve Jobs [55:57]
Of course, it was impossible to connect the dots looking for when I was in college. But it was very, very clear looking backwards. 10 years later. Again, you can’t connect the dots looking forward, you can only connect them looking backwards. So you have to trust that the dots will somehow connect in your future. You have to trust in something, your gut, destiny, life, karma, whatever. Because believing that the dots will connect down the road will give you the confidence to follow your heart, even when it leaves you off the well worn path. And that will make all the difference.
David Ralph [56:32]
So do you have a big.in your life? Or is it just a series of small dots that led you to where you are?
Jonathan Bamber [56:37]
Well, I’d like to comment on that. on that. That clip. Actually, he’s misquoting Robert graves there as a poem, I think, is it the road less travelled or something like that which he misquotes? But, and I’m not sure I I really, I really, you know, I know what your your podcasts are called. But I’m not sure I totally agree with that. Because I think i think i think there’s this, it depends how you interpret what he’s saying. I mean, another, and I’m not a massive fan of the sound bites, because I think they can be really misleading. But another another kind of aphorism is that, you know, if you don’t know where you want to go, you’re never going to get there. And the point about that is that, you know, it is useful to forward plan. And, you know, joining up the dots, only backwards, while the forwards sort of suggests that there’s no grand plan. And that actually, you’re just kind of feeling your way through to where you want to be, instead of thinking, all right, I know I can do this, I can be this thing. And to be this thing, I have to do this, this and this. And if you if you if you read biographies, or you listen to interviews with some very successful people, that’s exactly what they’ve done.
David Ralph [57:56]
So So you think it’s more about making the dots go in stepping stones forward? More than back?
Jonathan Bamber [58:03]
I think it can be both? I think that’s absolutely right. Yes, if you really, you really, you really have a conviction about where you want to be. I want my life to look like this. So you know, life planning type, you know, life coaching type stuff. If you if I want to be this thing in 10 years time, well, it’s not going to happen if you just sort of drift around and let let let life take control of you. And, and circumstances just happen and you react to them. You’re totally reactive. Instead of proactive. If you say, Okay, I want to be this in 10 years time, what do I need to do to get there? And then you you find ways to do them? That’s, that’s, that’s more the kind of stepping stones, the path the the life plan of forward planning. But, but but, but also, I mean, if I look at my own life, you ask the question, you know, when I was six, seven, did I think I’d be ugly? So I’ll just Well, no, no. And I look, I look back now. And I think Well, yeah, that there was there was some joining up in the dots in the past in that, you know, I didn’t take necessarily the old vs route to where I am now. But I’ve got to somewhere that seemed, you know, it’s very much in keeping with who I am.
David Ralph [59:20]
So you, you truly feel that you found your authentic self in the authentic location that the two come together?
Jonathan Bamber [59:26]
Yeah, something like that.
David Ralph [59:29]
That’s a good place to be, isn’t it?
It’s better than not being there. Oh, we’ve we’ve gone full circle, you’ve become very English again. So this is the end of the show, Jonathan. And this is the part when we we play the theme tune and we transport you back in time to have a one on one with your younger self. And if you could go back in time and speak to the younger Jonathan, what advice would you give? And what age would you choose? Well, we’re going to find out, because I’m going to play the tune and when it Yo, this is the Sermon on the mic
Unknown Speaker [1:00:11]
with the best of the show.
Jonathan Bamber [1:00:29]
So I think when I was a little bit younger, maybe perhaps in my early 20s, I lacked quite a lot of confidence. I don’t know why. It was that kind of growing up thing or something. And quite in the show. So far, we’ve talked quite a lot about you know, what’s possible, and pushing your limits and seeing where your limits are. And I think I, when I was younger, I didn’t realise realised last night, I gave myself internal bandwidth limits, which I think I, I’m happy with what I’ve achieved and where I am. But I think that those limits held me back in many parts of my life and the sorts of things I did and the ways I I kind of conducted myself and I think if I could give myself any advice when I was younger, it was really to to think that there there are no limits, the limits are internal. You know, you should explore everything and all the possibilities. And don’t hold yourself back in anything that you try or want to be or where you think you can go in your life. That would be the key message I would give my younger self.
David Ralph [1:01:45]
I think that is the key message that everybody should have. There’s no limits, and the only limits are the ones that you’re putting on yourself more often than not. Jonathan, how can our audience connect with you, sir?
Jonathan Bamber [1:01:57]
So, um, I. So I am on Facebook, but I’ll be honest with you, I never use it. I’m, I’m not a massive fan of kind of social media. Well, it’s not that I’m not a fan. It’s just kind of a timing thing. To be honest. I just like um, yeah, you know, if I could cut myself up into 1000 pieces, I’d probably you know, I’d be on Twitter, Instagram, LinkedIn, Facebook, and everything else, you know, I do have I do have a LinkedIn page. And I think I sent you a link to that. That’s kind of more my professional life. And then I guess for some private life is Facebook and I have a Twitter account, but I’ll be honest with you, I have never sent a single
David Ralph [1:02:46]
I love it. I love it. So our audience really struggle to connect with you. But
well, we’re not not totally David. I mean, you know, I am very very contactable, you know, all you have to do is look me up and Jonathan Bamber, Bristol or anything like that. And, you know, you’ll get lots of links to who I am and my email addresses on the web and all of that. So if people want to get in touch and and have any questions or want to know any more than I’m pretty, pretty contactable.
There we go. We’ll have all the links on our show notes. We also have the Wikipedia page about the Greenland Canyon. That’s going to be fascinating. Jonathan, thank you so much for spending time with us today, joining those dots of your life. And please come back again when you have more dots to join up. Because I do believe that by joining the dots and connecting our past is the best way to build our futures. Jonathan Bamber, thank you so much.
Jonathan Bamber [1:03:35]
David doesn’t want you to become a faded version of the brilliant self you are wants to become. So he’s put together an amazing guide for you called the eight pieces of advice that every successful entrepreneur practices, including the two that changed his life, head over to Join Up Dots.com to download this amazing guide for free and we’ll see you tomorrow on Join Up Dots.