Kristin Addis Joins Us On The Steve Jobs Inspired Join Up Dots Podcast
To subscribe to the podcast, please use the links below:
Introducing Kristin Addis
Kristin Addis is todays guest joining us on the Steve Jobs inspired Join Up Dots free podcast interview.
She is an entrepreneur, traveller, blogger and quite simply one of those ladies, who will inspire so many people out there that would love to leave the safety of their positions and travel the world feeling inspired.
Your sitting at your work and you start wondering where you could go if you weren’t chained to the desk.
Your mind wanders.
You love the image.
But then you shake it off and get back to living in the real world. Complete freedom.
How The Dots Started Joining Up For Kristin
Well our guest today had those same feelings but instead of staying in the office environment, she made a living in the real world.
She wrote all about travelling new paths, experiencing adventure on every corner and having a kick ass life.
She became a global nomad, and blogging entrepreneurial, and a lady that couldn’t stop smiling.
She was an investment banker in California and worked in the stressful environment until she realised that it was burn out time.
She realised that she had travelled a path that was not for her, and as Duran Duran once sang “I’m on a ride and I wanna get off, but they won’t slow down the roundabout”
So she jumped off the roundabout herself…bought a one way ticket to Thailand, sold her belongings and left everything she knew behind on September 27, 2012, with nothing but a carry-on backpack.
She had never done this before, and certainly had never travelled on her own, but she still did it.
Was she scared to say goodbye to everything ?
Was she able to plan enough to make sure that she wasn’t literally going into the unknown?
And of course the key question that everyone will want to know is how has she managed to fund the travelling lifestyle?
Well let’s bring onto the show to start joining up dots, as we discuss the words of Steve Jobs in todays Free podcast, with the one and only Kristin Addis.
During the show we discussed such weighty topics with Kristin Addis such as:
How she landed in Berlin and fell in love with the city, and its multi levels. She had no idea that it was so cool.
How she knew very quickly that the corporate job that she was in wasn’t for her, but still hung around for a while before deciding to leap into her travel career.
How it took her over two years to turn her financial situation into a full-time income through her blog, starting with travelling on just her savings.
Why it is so important to build community into a travel blog, to gain interaction from your audience.
Why it is so important in life to work towards a goal that is bigger than yourself. Look to provide more to the world and it will pay you back big-time.
How To Connect With Kristin Addis
If you enjoyed this episode with Kristin Addis then why not listen to some of our favourite podcast episodes such as Thom Singer, Joe De Sena, Sean Swarner or the amazing Alfie Best
Or if you prefer just pop over to our podcast archive for thousands of amazing episodes to choose from.
Audio Transcription Of Kristin Addis Interview
When we’re young, we have an amazing positive outlook about how great life is going to be. But somewhere along the line we forget to dream and end up settling. Join Up Dots features amazing people who refuse to give up and chose to go after their dreams. This is your blueprint for greatness. So here’s your host live from the back of his garden in the UK, David Ralph.
David Ralph [0:26]
Yes, hello there. Good morning, everybody. And welcome to Episode 215 of Join Up Dots. This is a show that I’ve been looking forward to for quite a while, because it’s the kind of storey that actually don’t tell the wife but I’d quite like to be doing myself. She is one of those ladies who will inspire so many people out there that would love to leave the safety of their positions, and travel the world feeling inspired. Now. We’ve all been there, you’re sitting at work and you start wondering where you could go if you weren’t chained to the desk, your mind wanders, you love the image, but when you shake it off and get back to living in the real world well our guest today had those same feelings but instead of staying in the office environment, she made living in the real world all about travelling new paths, experiencing adventure on every corner, and having a kick ass life. She was an investment banker in California and worked in a stressful environment until she realised that it was burnout time, she realised that she travelled a path that was not for her and as Duran Duran once sang, and I want to ride on a merry go round, but I want to slow down the round about that that’s a reference for the youngsters. So she jumped off the merry go round herself bought a one way ticket to Thailand, sold her belongings and left everything she knew behind on September the 27th 2012. With nothing but a carry on a backpack. She’d never done this before, and certainly had never travelled on her own. But still she did it. Was she scared to say goodbye to everything? Was she able to plan enough to make sure that she wasn’t literally going into the unknown? And of course, the key question that everyone will want to know is how much he managed to find travelling lifestyle when it’s find out as we bring onto the show to start Join Up Dots, the one and only Kristin Addis. How are you Kristin?
Kristin Addis [2:08]
I’m doing well. David, how are you?
David Ralph [2:10]
I’m extremely well although I did feel slightly embarrassed bringing in a Duran Duran reference thinking. I bet you have no idea what I’m talking about.
Kristin Addis [2:20]
I’ve heard Yeah, not really,
David Ralph [2:22]
you’re just being kind to me, you’re just being kind to me. So whereabouts are you at the moment because you are literally one of those people that the world is your home. Now you can sort of put yourself down wherever you are,
Kristin Addis [2:35]
more or less. I’m in Germany, right now I’m in Berlin. And I have this is my third month here. Not consecutively. But it’s just such a great city. And I’m really looking forward to spending more time here. Easy for because I’ve
David Ralph [2:49]
never been to Germany. But I know a lot of people that I speak to when they go to Berlin, they say this is a city, this is a proper city that you’d like to spend time really getting to know the sort of began the coming of it all, did it take you by surprise when you first went there,
Kristin Addis [3:06]
I had no idea that it was going to be this cool. I mean, you have kind of expectations about places, and I just didn’t really have any for Berlin, and I arrived, and I just fell in love instantly. Because it’s like an onion. And there’s so many layers to continuously pull back and you’re still going to find new things, and be, you know, shocked all the time. And there’s so many discoveries to be made here, and so many artists, and that’s a big contribution to how cool the city’s become now,
David Ralph [3:36]
what we’re going to do, we’re obviously going to take you back in time and look at your journey through. But it hasn’t been that long as it’s September the 27th 2012. You You left? Does it seem a lot longer? Now we’re talking to our nearly two Well, just over two years.
Kristin Addis [3:53]
Yeah, I have that time hop application on my phone, which is really fun. And so I’m seeing now exactly two years ago, the very beginnings of my trip, like a daily reminder. And it’s really cool to see because it does feel like wow, that was a long time ago. And if I go back and read my earlier blogs, I feel like wow, it’s
it’s really interesting to see how my perspective is shifted.
David Ralph [4:19]
So you’ve actually changed as a person and have you.
Kristin Addis [4:23]
I think that’s the biggest change is realising that having a lifestyle that is more like what I’ve wanted to live as possible. I just think I’m so much less stressed. And well, I know that I am and that I have easier relationships with people, you know, with friends, it’s just easier to make them and keep them. So
David Ralph [4:43]
did you do set do to sort of look at your friends, I imagine that you’ve still got mates and stuff who are still in the investment bank world in California?
Kristin Addis [4:53]
A lot of Yeah, a lot of people who are in the corporate world for sure.
David Ralph [4:57]
And do you look at them and kind of go up don’t know what you can have. You can have your cake and eat it in this life. Because I I’ve certainly fallen into that. That mentality now of thinking, you don’t have to be stressed, you can actually make a series of decisions that can give you the dream life and make every day and adventure did you do you look at them and kind of knowingly not him being one day you’ll realise the same thing.
Kristin Addis [5:24]
I think a lot of people never will. But I think a lot of people also really liked that lifestyle, and they feel secure with it. And that’s cool, too. But yeah, for a few people who do say things like, Oh, I wish I could do that. It’s like, well, there’s no great secret you actually can do you do it all
David Ralph [5:42]
the time. And you totally totally believe it. There’s no great secret to it, it’s just you deciding to want something,
Unknown Speaker [5:50]
I totally believe that.
David Ralph [5:52]
That’s a beautiful thing, isn’t it Really?
Kristin Addis [5:55]
Well, I just seen it to be true so many times for other people. And you know me, myself, me too, when I go after something full steam, probably going to eventually get there. That’s how it tends to work, I think
David Ralph [6:08]
I think he does as well. And it’s taken me years to realise there’s that kind of acronym, focus, follow one course until success. And I was always somebody that would focus really hard on something for maybe a year, and then something would grab my attention. And I think that’s not quite working, I go on to bat. And I look back on it now. And I think I was probably six months away of making a success on all these different things. But the shiny object came to me and I sort of moved on. So is that one of the things that we really need to sort of teach the people out there listening. But if I have a decision, if I have a passion, I have a focus, and I carry on working towards it, there’s a good chance that they’re going to get what they want.
Kristin Addis [6:52]
Well, I feel like that’s the best way to achieve success in anything is to be really passionate about it. And so I think that just kind of makes sense. If you’re really passionate about what you do that is usually passed on to the people who work with you. Or, you know, if you work solo, and you’re really passionate about it, it won’t feel like work so much. And it’ll be worth all of the time and effort it takes if you really, really care for something and want to want to do it.
David Ralph [7:19]
Are you a passionate lady by sort of nature, when you was a little girl? Were you very sort of focused? Or is that has that sort of developed over the years?
Kristin Addis [7:27]
I don’t know. I mean, probably I didn’t feel like I was back then I feel like I’ve become more focused now. So I think that took some effort. But I think that having the investment banking background has helped with at least the business acumen part of things. So don’t begrudge that experience. It’s just not one on one again.
David Ralph [7:50]
So that wasn’t your path. I know. You fell into something bad was bad, looked good on paper, it was a career. When did you actually realised it wasn’t for you?
Kristin Addis [8:02]
You know it pretty soon into it. And I stuck around anyway, the economy was really bad. And I was doing well at it. I just knew that I didn’t really like it. But you know, just to have a job at all. And around 2008 2009 was a blessing. So I just held on to it because it was a good job at least and I was able to support myself on it.
David Ralph [8:26]
So what was it a job that you you really didn’t want a toy? It was just a job? Or did you? Were you pleased when you first got it? But once you were in it for a while you’re earning on this? This isn’t really for me?
Unknown Speaker [8:35]
Yeah, the ladder?
David Ralph [8:37]
That’s that’s like so many people, isn’t it? I had that for 13 years. So you did quite well, to get out of it quite quickly.
Kristin Addis [8:45]
Yeah, I mean, I think that I think that a lot of people are kind of running into that, because my friends are just turning 30 most of them. And so they’re at the point in life where they’re like really evaluating what they want to do with their careers and making the necessary changes as well. I think that’s a time when you kind of have been in something for a few years and are starting to think maybe this isn’t right.
David Ralph [9:07]
Was that your first job? Kristin?
Kristin Addis [9:10]
Well, my first full time job, I had jobs all through university in high school as well. But that was my first full time job. Yes.
David Ralph [9:19]
And you you you’re just not a corporate person? Or was it bad environment You didn’t? Like? Could you imagine yourself now working in an office somewhere?
Kristin Addis [9:27]
You know, I think that with the right company and the right circumstances, and maybe one that kind of tries to make work more of like a fun environment where you feel very appreciated. I think that could be okay. Where you really feel like you’re part of a team. And a lot of companies like in Silicon Valley, for example, in California, I like that. And I think that would be okay, but it would still be restrictive. And that’s the difficulty for me.
David Ralph [9:54]
He’s difficult, isn’t it to do these things when you know, it’s not naturally you as I say it, 13 years of, of something that wasn’t quite me. And then another 10 years of something that was kind of more me, but still, I couldn’t find my my path, my passion. So give us an understanding of where you were, obviously you was in the investment bank, we know that sort of location, but mentally, you’re doing the job, you don’t really like it. You stuck it out for a while before you decided on this was Was this your first choice? Or did you think I just get another job? I go to somewhere else that will be better? Or did you think No, I really need to start travelling and seeing the world.
Kristin Addis [10:36]
I quit with the objective to travel. I just it’s always appealed to me. And I started to read some blogs, and I discovered people who were you know, just like me out travelling and I was just like, so this is actually possible and affordable. And people do this. It was really shocking to me, which of course, is laughable now, but I had no idea that was possible well without a trust fund. And it totally is. So that’s, that’s really what pushed me to try it for myself as well.
David Ralph [11:08]
How is it possible because I, I had that same mentality, I think if I was going to start travelling, I’ve got to have X amount of thousand pounds to sort of cover me for hotels and expenses and stuff. What’s the minimum, but somebody out there that’s listening to this? And thinking, yeah, I really want to do this. And to be honest, I know quite a few people that really want to do this. Was this kind of minimum? Do you need to be able to do this comfortably?
Kristin Addis [11:34]
Um, well, I think what my formula was, anyway, what worked for me is I didn’t want to be working anymore, I wanted a break. So you could go with very little money and start teaching English. If you’re a native speaker, which I’m sure a lot of your listeners are. And you have a university degree, you can go get an English teaching job in almost any Asian country. You can work at hospitals, there’s always work you can pick up even if you don’t have much at all. However, I personally saved 20,000 US dollars before leaving. I definitely didn’t spend anywhere near that much. I spent about half that. But I think it’s always good to have the rainy day fun to just for when you do come home if you do.
David Ralph [12:16]
And a lot of people do, where do they sort of set off and then six months down the line go now actually, this isn’t for me, because you’re on a never ending path on you. That’s what’s fascinating about you, it seems like this is your life now you’re just going to be travelling constantly.
Kristin Addis [12:30]
Yeah, well, I turned my blog and my freelance writing into a new career basically. And it actually took me almost two years for it to be enough to live on. And so I was really using my savings a lot. So now I’m at a point where it’s good, because I am able to live off of it. But it wasn’t an immediate money making thing. And I think that’s a big misconception is like whole become a travel writer, I’ll travel for free all the time. Not really, you have to prove yourself first and have a portfolio 2.2. So it’s all about I think having a passion for the writing, if you wanted to do it the way that I did, or whatever your medium might be, if you do YouTube videos, or if you’re a photographer, whatever you want to do with it. I think if you have the passion to put in the time to develop it without payment, at first might be the way it goes for you.
David Ralph [13:26]
Well, that’s the same with everything, isn’t it, you’ve got to put the work in which unfortunately, I suppose is where people fail, they they feel that they can do something for a few days, and they’re going to be crushing it. But it takes a long time. And you’ve got to be aware. But for a while, no one’s going to notice you No one’s going to be interested in you. So financially is going to be just you doing it for the sake of doing it.
Kristin Addis [13:50]
Yeah, you can’t get disappointed easily or compare yourself too much to others. Because in the beginning, it’s just no one knows you exist yet. And you have to get the word out
David Ralph [14:00]
how to not do that, though. Because you’re you’re looking at these blogs in the office. And you’re going this is amazing. This is what I want to do, you’re instantly sort of setting up with what you’ve got as what you want. How do you sort of hold back from that? And think No, actually, I’m Kristin. That is it’s going to take me a while I’m on my own path. And I know that these people are doing x y Zed, and I’ve had quite a few sort of travelling people on the show, doing a sort of amazing things, how to use sort of benchmark yourself for where you are at that time and not look at the the highlights.
Kristin Addis [14:35]
What I remember is that the people who are really big now have been at it for a while and it took them time to get there. It’s not really an overnight success type of industry. So you know, for where I am, after two years, I’m really, really happy with it. And I would measure success based on for me personally, the engagement I get from my audience, the emails that people are sending, saying that I’ve inspired them in some way, which is awesome. And then just the amount of you know, sharing and comments go into it. It feels more like a community for me than like a travel website. But everyone’s got a different method. That’s the thing.
David Ralph [15:14]
I was spending some time looking at your site. And it is it’s very much like a community, these people aren’t commenting about the places you’ve been as such, they’re commenting almost like their friends, somehow it was like personal chitchat on your comments as that growing up over a period of time.
Kristin Addis [15:32]
And people read it and they feel like we’re having a conversation. That’s what I’ve been told about the writing. So that’s really great. I think that’s what you want with a blog because you want people to engage with you. That’s why you’re writing on that kind of medium. So that was really something great to see that the writing was appreciated. And that that’s the reaction.
David Ralph [15:53]
Did it surprise you go? Or did you think that you were just going to be wandering the world on your own really taking photos, sticking them an album, or a virtual album as it is now? Did it surprise you that there were so many people out there living through you? Or did you kind of think, because you’d seen the other blogs, that was going to happen anyway?
Kristin Addis [16:13]
I you know, of course, I hoped it would get that way. But I had no, I try not to you know, put these big expectations on things and just try to let it happen organically. And I think that that’s the better thing to do. Because otherwise it’s stressful. And either way it’s going to take its time. So, but getting those emails now it’s weird. It’s really, really cool. But at the same time, I’m just like, still blown away by each and every one. So I think that that’s a really cool part of it. And the other people have that too. And will they inspired me. So it’s it’s just part of it. I think once you have that kind of community
David Ralph [16:50]
improperly is slightly different with yours. Because you write your words with myself, I speak my words. So a lot of time, your brain is kind of working quicker than your mouth isn’t been appetisers Your mouth is working quicker than your brain is. But I get quite a lot of emails from people that say, Oh, you said face on a certain show. And I’ll be honest, I don’t even remember saying the things. And they sort of say yes, in Episode 138, you quoted face you quoted back, and it kind of sounds like me. So it has to be me. Do you? Are you surprised at what base or dig into and the kind of things that they pick up on on your site?
Kristin Addis [17:30]
Yeah, and especially I write for now I write a solo female column also on nomadic Matt calm, which is he’s one of the biggest travel blogs out there. And so what’s really interesting is what those comments turned into and what people pick out of that, because he’s got just a bigger audience. And so you’ve got a lot of different kinds of people reading it and leaving their opinions.
David Ralph [17:55]
Well, what kind of strange stuff do you get? and Kristen?
Kristin Addis [17:59]
Well, people’s just referencing things that don’t make any, you know, the typical hate comments. But I mean, when it’s your blog, you can allow them or not allow them. And if it’s not productive to the conversation, I don’t feel like it needs to show up. So
David Ralph [18:12]
how do you deal with the comments when you first got them? Because that’s a benchmark of success, isn’t it? when when when you’re starting to get out there and be noticed, is when you’re starting to get sort of nasty comments, because people are seeing you and kind of want to knock you back for doing stuff that they would like to do, but they haven’t got the gumption to do it. Can you remember the first one that you’ve gotten sober? How it made you feel?
Kristin Addis [18:39]
Yeah, I do remember. And it was regarding the SEC can’t tattoo that I have that I got from a monk in Thailand. And a lot of people have opinions about it. And so I just remember that first one saying that he thought I was disrespectful. And I was just really offended because I’ve, you know, I really feel the opposite with that. I’ve, you know, felt about the culture and the religion there. So I took it to heart, but now at this point, it’s just so pointless, because people just say whatever they want. It’s a lot of energy, but love it or hate it. They’re still reading it. So it’s fine. Shake it off.
David Ralph [19:17]
Absolutely. Yeah. It’s good publicity. bad publicity, isn’t it? As long as they’re noticing you then ultimately, there’s a financial reward coming your way? I suppose.
Kristin Addis [19:27]
I suppose. Yeah. Ideally,
David Ralph [19:30]
he can. Can you see a point when you? Are you big enough that you’ve got a kind of team because of some of the travel bloggers out there? I was speaking to a chat the other day, and I’ll be honest, I thought he was just a kind of travel blogger. And during the conversation, he said, Yeah, when I started out, it was just me and my wife, and we were sleeping in cars, and on bus stops and being you know, really roughing it. And now we’ve got 20 people working for us. And I thought, Wow, I didn’t realise it was that big. Can you see see sort of a path going forward? In that regard, where something will sort of branch into something bigger? Are you quite happy as you are at the moment doing your thing?
Kristin Addis [20:11]
I have Actually, no, I’m definitely branching out, I’ve got a lot of ideas that I want to execute in the next year or two. And I think now is kind of that critical mass time. And so I have brought on a little bit of extra help, not much at all, just a little bit of extra paid help with a few things administrative Lee, but it would be great actually, to have a full time salaried employee who could help with just a lot of the things that are hard to do now. And that person would get all of the insight experience on how to build a blog to if he or she wanted to do the same. So eventually, I’d like to offer that kind of thing.
David Ralph [20:48]
And what kind of things are hard. So uploading and stuff with dodgy Wi Fi, because you’re off the beaten track and stuff.
Kristin Addis [20:54]
Um, yeah, that was hard for a long time. But actually, it’s gotten better even over the last year years in a lot of places in Southeast Asia. So I would assume it’s kind of improving around the world, I don’t know. But the difficulty is now you know, in the beginning, it was just about travelling, I didn’t really want to work. As I said, I wanted to break so I prioritise the travelling, and just writing storeys basically. And but now there’s a lot more that goes into it. So it’s, you know, a lot of social media management, which takes a lot of time it’s a, it’s a full time job for a lot of people in a lot of companies on its own. And then if you freelance right like I do, which makes up a lot of my income, you have to find those opportunities, you have to, you know, do the things required of you to get the writing done. So there’s just a lot more things to do.
David Ralph [21:47]
So so if you were just a freelance writer, and all the social media, all the uploading, all that kind of stuff was taken away by a virtual assistant or somebody that you were paying. Would that be? Would that be the dream I thought you sent me when you were just being your travel Muse you was writing whatever come into your heart and into your head,
Kristin Addis [22:07]
I still think that I’m very much a businesswoman. And I’ve seen a lot of opportunities now that I’ve been travelling and really kind of developing some ideas, actually. So I know, I don’t think that that’s the end all for me, I want to be, I want to have a business that I’ve started apart from this blog, which is of course of business. But I want another kind of business as well.
David Ralph [22:28]
It’s interesting that there isn’t a yo yo, you in a business, you’re in a sole corporate environment, but you didn’t like. And I imagine the dream, first of all was freedom, time, freedom. And so total liberation, you could go wherever you are. But it gets a point where you need something bigger, don’t you you need to have something to work on. I see this time and time again, where people almost have the dream life and then somehow backtrack, but it’s a better life. Because when they’ve got structure, and they’re working towards something as well.
Kristin Addis [23:01]
Yeah, I mean, you said it pretty well, the whole idea was to I mean, I don’t know if the five hour workweek exists for as much of anyone. But I think you could get close to it, you know, by doing things online. So to go back and then start working so much that you’re doing more work than you used to is kind of counterproductive, I guess, in the whole taking a break mentality. But I also think that at some point, you got to be able to support yourself, and it’s better to work for yourself, then for others.
Unknown Speaker [23:34]
And you love it. I prefer that.
Unknown Speaker [23:35]
David Ralph [23:36]
You so love it, I can hear you almost like a coiled spring I can I can see that you’ve got all these ideas, and I’m not gonna I’m not gonna ask you what those ideas are in case somebody listens and, and takes them off you. But you’re ready, you’re ready to go to the next day, Johnny.
Kristin Addis [23:54]
Definitely, I’ve just been having a really just brainstorming like crazy this October. And it’s been really good.
David Ralph [24:00]
I’m going to play some words that really sort of resonate where we are at the moment in the conversation, but it kind of works now. And it also works back in the investment bank time. This is Jim Carrey.
Unknown Speaker [24:12]
My father could have been a great comedian, but he didn’t believe that that was possible for him. So he made a conservative choice. Instead, he got a safe job as an accountant. And when I was 12 years old, he was let go from that safe job. And our family had to do whatever we could to survive. I learned many great lessons from my father, not the least of which was that you can fail at what you don’t want. So you might as well take a chance on doing what you love.
David Ralph [24:39]
That was kind of written for you really wasn’t it?
Kristin Addis [24:42]
Oh, those words resonate with me so much. I really liked that speech.
David Ralph [24:46]
Did you? Do you remember when you first heard it, because I remember sitting there and it was on YouTube, and I just clicked on it. And I didn’t expect it to affect me as much as it has. So much so but I now play every day really on the show, because I think it’s so vitally important because it’s so true. Can you remember when you first heard that?
Kristin Addis [25:05]
I think I think it was the summertime. And I remember just watching it and things like nodding along with the whole thing. Like, wow, I completely agree. So right, you should just do what you want. Because I mean, you cannot you only get one shot at life. And you don’t want to spend it doing something you don’t like, right? What you what you do for work is what you spend pretty much your time on. So it should be something that is enjoyable to spend your time on.
David Ralph [25:34]
Shouldn’t it but so many people, um, and so many people are quite accepting of the fact that the job that they’re in, or the relationship that they’re in, is just crappy, and they just don’t like it. I it always amazes me when I speak to people, and I go, How’s work, and I go, Oh, it’s a job. And I think God, you’re spending eight hours a day doing something, but it’s just a job, that there’s got to be more to life, isn’t it?
Kristin Addis [26:01]
Yeah, I think it’s really scary, though. Because I have all these failure scenarios, in my mind, of course. And so those are really hard to get away from you’re just like, Oh, no, what if this goes wrong, and I end up living in a cardboard box. But I just kind of recently realised like, you have to trust yourself enough to know that you’re not going to put yourself in that situation. I mean, I don’t know anyone personally, who has really gone hard after something and just failed so miserably, that they couldn’t rebuild again. I mean, it obviously comes with some responsibility. But I think realising that just made me think well, then I should just try things and see how they go. Because it’s not a huge failure. It’s just kind of learning steps.
David Ralph [26:46]
Well, what has been in your view of, well, you’re not quoting it as a failure, you’re just quoting it as steps. But on the journey that you’ve been on what was sort of the moments that really almost knocked you out up because he didn’t go as you expected?
Kristin Addis [27:03]
Well, actually, in the spring of this year, I was in China, and a lot of these ideas actually came to me around these time, this time, I think out of necessity of these, you know, kind of future things I want to pursue. But I was not making anything. I mean, it was really getting to the point where I was thinking, Okay, I I have to get a job at some point. And then things really turned around for me, right when I needed them to, I got a few freelance writing contracts that were really good and started to get a little bit more noticed. USA Today picked me as one of their top 10 vagabonding bloggers, that was really cool. And so a lot of things just started happening all around the same time, that really just helped a lot with making it to the point where I can live off of it, which happened in about a month’s time. Everything kind of went from bleak to Oh as possible.
David Ralph [28:01]
But it’s funny, isn’t it? Because I hear that time and time again, you’re almost at the point where you’re knocked out. And all the efforts you’ve been putting in somehow start coming together. Did you think that is? Because you had put so much effort in? Or do you think that’s just a fluke, that these things have happened? What was your what’s your personal belief on that?
Kristin Addis [28:22]
I think it’s a combination of obviously things just kind of going my way. But I think that’s a small part of it. I think the biggest part of it is not getting discouraged when what you’re creating is not quite what you want it to be, and you’re not getting quite the attention you want. Because everyone does have to put in time and work to get it to where it goes and to get to know their audience to and what they want. So I think that it’s just it’s not really a fluke. I mean, a lot of things came together to make it happen. And I also think networking is one of the most important things you can do in any industry and travel writing is definitely one of them. That’s super important.
David Ralph [29:01]
So is that a sort of golden nugget for anyone out there who’s about to start something? Should they start reaching out and and connecting with like minded individuals?
Kristin Addis [29:13]
Yes, definitely. And help each other out as I mean, I got to I forgotten a lot of my opportunities, because someone helps me out. And then I turn around and do the same, because it will come back to and helping does not harm you.
David Ralph [29:25]
Helping doesn’t does it. I was having a chat with somebody earlier, just before you. And he was saying the moment that his life changed was when he decides to change his focus more on giving to people than trying to get himself. And he said it was a mindset shift, that he just put himself into a corner that he couldn’t see where he was going to get out. So he kind of just got out by helping other people. And he said his life has never looked better since.
Kristin Addis [29:57]
Well, I think that there’s a lot to be said about kind of getting back what you put out there. So that makes a lot of sense.
David Ralph [30:04]
When when you set your mom and dad that I’m fed up with me job, I’m going to quit especially I’ve got daughters, and especially as a lady when I a bit freaked out or when a really supportive Did you have that conversation? Or do you just
Kristin Addis [30:20]
Well, what I’ve said before, like in my blog and kind of other podcasts is that I actually held it in and didn’t tell anyone what I wanted to do until I was really sure I was going to do it because I didn’t want anyone to be able to talk me out of it. And it turned out that everyone was so supportive. So I didn’t even need to do that I could have trusted them and let them in a little sooner. My mom was incredibly supportive. She still is she’s really happy for me and excited for me and just thinks that it’s great that I’m out pursuing what I want. So it’s really nice to have that kind of support. But I’ve kind of come from a line of like, independent with and my family. So I think that’s really helped me to have the support from them and the faith in myself to do that kind of thing.
David Ralph [31:08]
So so in your heart pause you felt that people were going to be the naysayers. They were going to try to hold you back. So you kept it totally in until you were ready to go. And even if they said what the hell you doing, you would have still done it.
Kristin Addis [31:24]
Yeah, I guess I guess that I was afraid of naysayers. And you know, it’s hard to hear just people completely putting down something you really want to do constructive criticism is one thing, but I had to be ready for a tough blow to come from any direction. So I just wanted to know that I was ready. And that by the time I announced what I was doing, I would I would mean it and I wouldn’t go back on it.
David Ralph [31:46]
And so when we should find you in California, where where was the first place you went to.
Kristin Addis [31:51]
I flew into Bangkok, where I remained for only four or five days. And then I really say my first country was Cambodia, because that was my first right afterwards, Bangkok and I spent my first month of travelling in Cambodia.
David Ralph [32:04]
Tell us about the experience. You flying there. Obviously, it’s a world apart, but you are a lady travelling on your own for the first time, which a lot of our listeners would like to do. Is it something that you become comfortable with very quickly? Was it daunting?
Kristin Addis [32:22]
Honestly, No, it wasn’t. And I think it was daunting, right? until I found myself in a dorm and got into a conversation almost immediately with the girl next to me. And then I had people to eat dinner with that night. Then there was another blogger in town and he’s he’s lovely. He’s shown me around three cities now that when when we’ve been there at the same time, James from nomadic notes, and nomadic notes calm and he’s really good with food. So I ate really well. And it went, it just went smoothly, pretty much from the beginning. And so I figured, okay, I’ll just try my luck in Cambodia. That’s quite a border crossing between Thailand and Cambodia. There were a lot of like schemes and tricks, but I managed to get through it without having to pay for anything. And I was there for anything, I
David Ralph [33:12]
believe in stuff is that a lot of
Kristin Addis [33:13]
a lot of stupid stuff like that. Yeah. And scams. So once I did that, I was just like, I can do this for sure. Like I figured that out, the rest of this is going to be fine.
David Ralph [33:25]
And so will you literally smiling at that point, you get through the border, and you think yes, this is for me, I’ve done the first bit. I’ve overcome the scary bit of setting off on my own. And it’s all right. It’s okay, I can do this. What was it a big smile, or were you then going? Blimey, I’ve got a lot of travel here. That was the favourite of mine is what I’m trying to sort of ask.
Kristin Addis [33:51]
For me it didn’t at all I had that beautiful moment of oh my gosh, life is amazing. I can’t believe I’m doing this. I feel so free. In Angkor Wat which is which was still within my first week of travelling, and I had just met some really cool people in my dorm. And for a lot of them, they were just starting their trips as well. And so we were all in this euphoric state, and just really bouncing off each other and like just building up the momentum of the feeling so much. So I was just so in love with Cambodia. And I kind of wonder now if I went back to how it would be.
David Ralph [34:26]
Because it was your first time it was magical. It was all fresh.
Kristin Addis [34:30]
Mm hmm. Yeah, exactly. I have returned to some places, and I really enjoyed most of them. I think you just have to be prepared for it not to be the same and to expect that it will change.
David Ralph [34:40]
Would Cambodia be a best place?
Kristin Addis [34:44]
I think you know, when people ask best I have to ask best for what? Because some places have better scuba diving, which is huge. To me. Some places are better if you just want like a cultural adventure and experience. What the
David Ralph [34:56]
way made you feel been? Well, I
Kristin Addis [35:00]
don’t know. I can’t pick a favourite. It’s impossible.
David Ralph [35:04]
So you love aspects of them all.
Kristin Addis [35:07]
Pretty much. There’s very few places I wouldn’t return to.
Kristin Addis [35:18]
Oh, yeah. No, I yeah, she’s great.
David Ralph [35:20]
Yeah, she’s she’s lovely. She was back in the day about Episode 63 or something. So it was a long while ago. And she was saying that she went to China. And she said it was dreadful. She She really disliked it. It was it was just not her. And I said to her, Well, you won’t go back there again. And she went, Oh, no, I’ll probably go back there again. And I went, well, why would you do that if it was so dreadful? And she said, because next time I’m more experienced in dealing with stuff I’ve been around, I’ve seen things and so maybe I just wasn’t right for that place at that time. Is that how sort of most travel bloggers feel that even if they go to somewhere and at that moment, it’s not nice a bad experience by can grow into it, they become more rounded?
Kristin Addis [36:05]
Well, I really agree with what she said. And I really think China is a super hard place to start. It’s even I can speak Mandarin. And I was just like, exhausted all the time there. Because it is so so different culturally. And I had intentionally put myself in very remote places, because that’s my method of travel. Really, I like that kind of thing. And so I had no choice but to speak with them in Mandarin. And that was hard for me, because I’m not quite fluent. And just trying to understand and learn everything. It was overwhelming. And I can see it being really hard for a lot of people. People either love it or hate it. And there
David Ralph [36:42]
was amazing, you can speak Mandarin.
Kristin Addis [36:45]
Yeah, I actually did live in Taiwan. When I was 21. I had just finished university. And so I wasn’t travelling solo, but I did move there solo. And that was kind of my first experience. And that is why I speak Chinese.
David Ralph [37:01]
You and Mark Zuckerberg, I believe,
Unknown Speaker [37:03]
David Ralph [37:05]
Yeah, it was it was already in the press this week, he did a 30 minute speech or an interview. And he spoke fluent Chinese.
Kristin Addis [37:14]
He’s probably better than I am. But I really feel like I’m on the cusp. And I would like to spend some more time there very soon to get to the point of fluency because I feel like I can and I would love to be flowing a second language
David Ralph [37:25]
is that is that the newest one, you’ve got to a second language there.
Kristin Addis [37:28]
By far, now that I’m wanting to spend so much time in Germany, Germans going to become a priority as well. But otherwise, I know very little Spanish and French, I would say and then I’ve picked up maybe 10 or 12 words and other countries, I’ve spent a lot of time and
David Ralph [37:44]
I hope to people integrate themselves into the community. Because I when I started talking to you guys, I really thought that you would just be moving on over time. But more often than not people seem to be telling me Oh, no, I’m going to be here for three months. And they really do so of integrate themselves into the community really get to know the place before then they move on. with somebody who was doing that, is it best best for them to look for a hostel? First of all, or a flat or a hotel? Is Is there sort of best practices for finding yourself in a new city that you’re going to be there for a while and settling in somehow?
Kristin Addis [38:23]
Well, this is really new for me. I was completely nomadic for two years. And I finally decided I need to stay longer in places because I got tired of it. And I was like, Well, why am I continuing to do something I’m tired of, why don’t I find somewhere I like stay there for a while and then start moving again. When I feel it’s time, which the time has come Actually, I’m getting itchy feet again. It’s just hilarious after three months, but I think that if you’re already sure that you want to move to the city, you could start in a hostel or something like that, I think is I’m not a big hostile fan in Europe, I definitely am in South stage. So it depends on what part of the world you’re moving to what’s the difference within Christian, I just feel that you know, at a hotel or something like that, in Southeast Asia, you’re going to be pretty isolated from meeting anyone, a hostel will have like common rooms where everyone hangs out. And you can still get your own room and one of those, and there are still nice ones. And I just think it’s it doesn’t have to be the dreaded dorm experience. But in Europe, I really like renting an apartment. And usually I stay with a friend until I’m able to find one or I’ll do an apartment rental website type of thing. Because I feel more integrated into the life and culture. doing it that way. and Europe, so depends on where I am.
David Ralph [39:41]
And so so that’s what you would recommend you would recommend if you was in Europe, to go onto a website and look for a cheap apartment or hotel for a period of time.
Kristin Addis [39:52]
Yeah, I think it I mean, like in Germany, it’s really hard to find, I’m sorry, in Berlin, it’s really hard to find a a shared flat for whatever reason, it’s ridiculously hard. I think a lot of cities are kind of getting that way, maybe in part because of apartment rental websites. So it’s kind of a vicious cycle. But you might want to get something like that at least short term while you’re looking for something more long term. Whereas in Southeast Asia, like in Chiang Mai, or in human city, you can just walk right up and read something the day you arrive, it will be available.
Unknown Speaker [40:25]
So once you
David Ralph [40:26]
do it for three months, because I can’t I live just down the road from London. And I can’t imagine if I went up there and sort of lived in London, but I would really know what to do every morning I’d wake up and kind of thing. What should I do today? Oh, I don’t know. Did you have a plan for it? Do you sort of know every day what you’re doing? Or do you get up and just watch daytime TV? And what do you do?
Kristin Addis [40:49]
I don’t ever watch TV actually, actually frustrate some of my friends that I won’t watch movies or tv because I just I can’t I can’t get through them. So I if I’m not travelling like out doing outdoorsy, like adventure, three types of things. I’m glued to my computer working. Sometimes I’ll wake up in the morning, and I’ll work all the way until it’s like, literally the entire waking time of my day I’ll be working. But that’s to make up for when I go and have a trip where I’m barely working for, you know, three weeks or so. So I don’t actually have any time for like relaxation, but I don’t really want it anyway, I kind of want to be like out exploring. And it’s kind of different. When I’m nomadic, I have to just set aside a few days every now and then to work now that I’m in Berlin, I’m putting a lot more work in. And I think that’s why I’m making more money now. And so there’s a direct correlation for sure. And it’s becoming apparent to me that the whole nomadic lifestyle might just not be possible. If I really want to be making a livable income. Can you get to a point where a certain amount is passive income that comes to you? Is it something that you’ve got to create all the time, that’s definitely happening, I’m definitely developing passive income streams. But in order to do that, there’s a lot of front end work. So that’s why it takes time to develop all those income streams. And I think with any business at all, isn’t it just tonnes and tonnes of work for the entrepreneur in the beginning, it’s just how it goes.
David Ralph [42:29]
I almost destroyed myself doing this show, I did not realise the amount of work it took to get it off the ground. And I went from doing a job where pretty much I could go in on my time and leave on my time. So I’d be home at a decent time to doing close on 20 hours a day work. Day after day after day for like eight 910 weeks, I was absolutely slugging it, it’s got a lot easier and easier now. But yeah, in the early days, you cannot believe how much work it takes. But friends is you want to do it, don’t you? You you love doing it. So it’s kind of that hybrid of, of hobby and work you every opportunity you get your laptop open and you start chipping away at stuff. Do you have that you actually have to force yourself sometimes to go? No, actually, I need to go to bed.
Kristin Addis [43:19]
Oh, all the time. And like today, I was just like, you know what, I’m not going to be on social media today. And I still broke that. But it’s just that can take so much time and be so draining because it as a blogger, you you have to be a social media strategist. That’s so essential. And that’s the that’s probably the biggest part of it. So I just told myself today like, No, I just need a break from that. I just don’t want to do that right now. So I’ll just read a book instead.
David Ralph [43:48]
Yeah, as your mindset totally change to the fact. But waking up in the morning is now a great thing, because you’ve got excitement, but going to bed is a bad thing. Because there’s things to do, which is like a totally different pre 62 when you’re in a job that you don’t like.
Kristin Addis [44:05]
Yeah, definitely. And I found that it has really helped to just get as organised as possible and to make a list of the things that need to get done. And then when I’m kind of feeling flustered, like I don’t know what I should do. Now I look at the list, and it’s much more efficient. So I think that you can kind of, if you can give yourself the satisfaction of removing something from the list or putting a check next to it, it makes it a little bit more doable and less stressful.
David Ralph [44:30]
When I’m going to play the words of Steve Jobs, and this is the theme of the show, this is why we called it Join Up Dots because you have been on a hell of a journey. And it’s a journey that really sounds like has been the making of you you are you are going to be a businesswoman of huge success. I can just hear it with your your dreams and your your work ethic. And I would love that I would love that. But you get everything that you want. Because at the bottom of it like Jim Carrey said, You took the risk, you took the risk, and you went for something. So I’d really like to see that happen. But I’m going to play the words of Steve Jobs now. And we’re going to see if these have resonance to you. This is Steve Jobs.
Steve Jobs [45:09]
Of course, it was impossible to connect the dots looking forward when I was in college. But it was very, very clear looking backwards 10 years later. Again, you can’t connect the dots looking forward, you can only connect them looking backwards. So you have to trust that the dots will somehow connect in your future. You have to trust in something, your gut, destiny, life, karma, whatever. Because believing that the dots will connect down the road will give you the confidence to follow your heart, even when it leaves you off the well worn path. And that will make all the difference. Well, you’ve really created your own path. But did those words tie up in your mind? Can you see but they have truth to you?
Kristin Addis [45:52]
Absolutely. For every step of the journey, I can see where certain things were good idea. And certain things were a minority setback. But honestly, they have all come together to go the way that I wanted them to. And I think it’s going to be that way for anyone who really guns after something they want to do. I think he will get there you if you really have the passion and you put the work in.
David Ralph [46:14]
So So is it easy passion? Is it faith? Is it commitment? When do you think that these things will naturally come true? If you can for it, as you say?
Kristin Addis [46:25]
Well, I wish I could think of who’s who said this now. But there’s the 10,000 hour rule. And it’s basically the argument that if you’re going to be a master at anything, you can bet you can plan on putting in at least 10,000 hours of work to get there. And then they point out how many people who achieved greatness, you know, took a lot of time to practice and they weren’t big right away. And the Beatles was an example was it. Malcolm Gladwell might have been yet
David Ralph [46:53]
in the outliers book, I think, wasn’t it?
Kristin Addis [46:55]
That’s right. That’s right. Yeah. And it’s, I think that was really helpful for me, it made me realise, oh, okay, it’s alright, if I’m still working towards, I’m not supposed to be there yet. I’m still improving.
David Ralph [47:07]
So you really love the fact that you have got many, many, many, many more hours to do. But you’re okay with putting that effort in?
Kristin Addis [47:17]
Well, I hope it’ll just, like helped me towards growth, I think it’s necessary. And I don’t feel so bad about not being you know, amazing yet, because I feel like I’m getting there. And I’m really happy with where things are. But there’s still more than I can do. And so just to know that kind of everyone is in that boat, and everyone’s always growing, especially if you do something artistic is a little it helps.
David Ralph [47:42]
Did you look back in your early blog pages compared to what you do now? And the content that you produce now? And did you look back on it ever? Because I I listened back to a lot of my early shows, and I can hear the improvement, can you see the improvement in your work?
Kristin Addis [47:59]
I think that my writing style has been pretty uniform. And I think even in the very beginning, I really like going back and reading those blogs because they were well written too. And so I don’t know if there’s been a big change, like sort of in my writing style, but having like actually having people who read it and getting feedback from them and starting to realise, okay, like this is what the reader wants. This is how this becomes a business that’s been really essential.
David Ralph [48:28]
is virtual world a big support for you, we were talking about passive income and the name it jumped into my head is Pat Flynn, who’s got a website smart, passive income and sort of helps with creating income streams, do you do a lot of years of education online virtually, or is it by personal Connexions that you built up over the time of travelling the world that have been most valuable for you?
Kristin Addis [48:55]
It’s a combination. And I’m always reading something, always something that will help me learn, I’ve always got one book that is more for pleasure, and one that is really like for teaching me something in a way to grow in the next level with business, or writing or whatever social media might be. So I think the constant education even when I’m not connected to computer like in a book that’s really important to and it’s kind of the investment in the growth of your, your, whatever your business is going to be to always keep learning and asking questions and forming the important relationships with people who can help you get there,
David Ralph [49:33]
I was talking to a gentleman who interviewed 50 of the world’s richest people. And then Wow, he looked at the 50 poorest people as well, are all the sort of Gen Gen habits of the rich and the poor. And one of the ones that the rich do is they watch very little TV. So you can take that one off. Another one that is that are always looking at how to educate, they’re always looking at building connexion. So even soldiers before going to bed, they might be sending an email to somebody to sort of contact or just say hello, it’s all that kind of constant improvement, physically and mentally, but really does sharpen your tools and takes you to the end product. And he saw that the poor people would come home and they would just flop in front of the telly and watch I was a Telly before they went to bed, and then get up and do it again. So you’re you’re certainly on the path you’re on the path to be which according to this guy.
Unknown Speaker [50:34]
I just want to be comfortable, you know,
David Ralph [50:37]
come on, do you want to be rich as well, Kristen, don’t you?
Kristin Addis [50:39]
Well, I think that you know, at first with the investment banking job, that was the objective, that’s what I wanted. But I’m starting to realise, okay, if you’re going to have kind of the work life balance that you’ve been seeking by starting this starting this travel lifestyle, then you should at least honour that. And if something gets to the point where it’s taking it from that, maybe you don’t need to be making quite as much if you still want to be able to take the breaks now and maybe there’s just a new way to approach it. How can you look at this and make it work?
Unknown Speaker [51:10]
No, I agree.
David Ralph [51:12]
Yeah, I agree with you totally. Actually, I think if somebody said to me, you’ve got to work 100 hours a week, 400,000 pounds or 10 hours a week for just a nice living. I’d go for the 10 hours a week, every single day. I mean,
Kristin Addis [51:27]
yeah, exactly. So bridge sounds great. But you know what, it’s just not it’s just not everything that it’s thought it’s going to be it’s not the problem solver that people think it will be nothing is so I don’t know if that’s really my goal, honestly.
David Ralph [51:41]
So So where’s the next country or you’re getting you itchy feet. And just before we send you back in time to have a one on one with yourself a? Where where’s where’s the plan? Now you’re in Germany? Is it going to be somewhere in Europe? Or you can jump on a plane and go further afield?
Kristin Addis [51:57]
Okay, so this is the thing, it’s funny that you asked, because this is a new thing I’m going to try. I asked all of my newsletter subscribers, where do you want to read about like, Where do you want me to go, like, show you and do guides for you? And all the normal stuff? I do like what country would you pick? And so I’m going to put together from their suggestions, a poll and share it on my social media and put it on my blog. So all of the readers who have any interest or they you know, want to send me in a certain place they can read about that. have an opportunity to vote. So the four choices. I might expand it to five. Nicaragua was one, Burma, Myanmar.
David Ralph [52:37]
So he was the second one. I didn’t Burma, Obama, right. Yes. Okay.
Kristin Addis [52:41]
And then New Zealand, South Africa, and Sheila. So all of those sounds pretty cool to me. So if any of those get voted in, I’ll just I’ll go there. And then I will write about it. And if people really liked that, maybe that’s something I can do more often. That sounds great.
David Ralph [52:57]
I like that. Yeah. Really interactive, isn’t it?
Kristin Addis [53:02]
Yeah. And I think it’s, I think it’s the best thing for both of us, because I you know, if they’re taking the time to like out of their days to read what I have to say that’s really pretty precious. And so whatever I can do to make it more relevant to the people who are reading it, the better I think,
David Ralph [53:18]
and when you in the place Ben bacon vote for you to do the weirdest things they could like, they can do that I could talk to you from afar, they can get you bungee jumping wells drunk and doing amazing things. That that’s what I would like.
Kristin Addis [53:33]
Okay, well, if I mean, I’ll see how this goes. But the, the responses to the email newsletter have been really great. And just just nice, long responses with people kind of telling me what they think of my blog and how it’s, you know, helps them plan things. And so I’m really hoping that it’ll have kind of that kind of reaction from people that they really feel like, Okay, great. This girl is doing what I want to read about. I want to follow this because it’ll be helpful for me at some point.
David Ralph [54:02]
Well, I think they should because it is a really good blog is is a really professional one, isn’t it? It’s obviously I didn’t see it when it first started. But you look at it now. And it looks like a company is done it.
Kristin Addis [54:15]
Thank you very much. I have a really helpful web designer named Chris Richardson. He’s been great.
David Ralph [54:21]
Yeah, no, he’s extremely good. And you should be very proud on that. Because it is a good one be my travel Muse if anyone’s sitting at work, and they want to sort of follow the path of less taken as it says, Go to be my travel muse.com. And you can contact Kristen straight away. Right? This is the end of the show. I don’t really want the show to finish, but I’m going to send you back in time. So this is a journey that I’m actually going to choose for us, I voted to send you back in time. And this is the part that we call the Sermon on the mic. And if you can go back in time to speak to your younger self, what age would you choose? And what advice would you give what we’re going to find out? Because I’m going to play the theme tune and when it fades you up? This is the Sermon on the mic.
Unknown Speaker [55:06]
Here we go with the best beer of the show.
Kristin Addis [55:25]
Alright, well, dear five year old Kristen, I just want you to know that everything that seems like it’s uncertain or scary and the changes that will inevitably come through life at you, I think that you should have more faith in yourself that you can get through it and that you’re really stronger than you think. So fear less and grow more.
David Ralph [55:49]
Absolutely. How can our audience connect with you, Christian,
Kristin Addis [55:52]
and you’re welcome to send me a message on Facebook if you want facebook.com slash be my travel muse, or you can email me at is Kristin at gmail. com and I’m also on Twitter. And I think that’s a great way to talk to people as well. So if you want to have a conversation on there, my handle is be my travel news.
David Ralph [56:12]
We will have over links on the show notes. Kristin, thank you so much for spending time with us today joining those dots. And please come back again when you have more dots to join up. Because I do believe that by joining up the dots and connecting our past is the best way to build our futures. Kristen added spank you so much.
Kristin Addis [56:28]
Thanks, David. It was a pleasure.
David doesn’t want you to become a faded version of the brilliant self you are wants to become so he’s put together an amazing guide for you called the eight pieces of advice that every successful entrepreneur practices, including the two that changed his life. Head over to Join Up Dots.com to download this amazing guide for free and we’ll see you tomorrow on Join Up Dots.