Wally Schmader Joins Us On The Steve Jobs Inspired Join Up Dots Podcast
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Introducing Wally Schmader
Wally Schmader is today’s guest joining us on the Steve Jobs inspired Join Up Dots Podcast.
He is a man who has been looking at what makes high performing teams in the corporate world for over 25 years.
Is it the leaders that bring everything together, or is it just the combined sum of all the parts that make a team that hums like a well tuned engine?
Can we build teams that go off like a rocket from the start, or is it a slowly, slowly approach that builds the effectiveness that companies are looking for the world over?
Well through his on hands study through working for Transworld Systems for nearly 30 years.
How The Dots Joined Up For Wally
He has built up ideas of the right way to go about it, which he has presented to the world in his well received books “Full Contact Leadership” and “”What Exceptional Leaders Know” co-authored with Tracy Spears.
The books are littered with practical advice and real life examples of the way to go to be seen as a leader that people will want to work for.
So did he start his studies into leadership early, or did he like many of us realise that certain people he was working under were simply not up to the job?
And can he see a change in the way that leadership is seen and taught now compared to when he started his career back in the mid eighties?
Well lets find out as we bring onto the show to start joining up dots, with the one and only Wally Schmader.
During the show we discussed such weighty topics with Wally Schmader such as:
How we can all make ourselves perform to a higher standard if we are only willing to ask some hard questions about ourselves.
Why he believes that whatever we think about is what we become in life….so start thinking people.
Why he feels that the “born leader” concept is a myth and should be viewed as something that just isn’t there!
Why the words of Joe Strummer from the Clash are so important “The way to improve the world is not to accept sub-standards of anything”
Why it is so important to understand the levels that we communicate at to become the leaders that we should all aim to be.
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Audio Transcription Of Wally Schmader Interview
When we’re young, we have an amazing positive outlook about how great life is going to be. But somewhere along the line we forget to dream and end up settling. Join Up Dots features amazing people who refuse to give up and chose to go after their dreams. This is your blueprint for greatness. So here’s your host live from the back of his garden in the UK, David Ralph.
David Ralph [0:26]
Yes, hello there. Hello, world. How are we ready for another episode of Join Up Dots at Coursera? Well, this is Episode 236. And it’s a totally different vibe. today. If you listen to yesterday’s one, you would have heard me talking to will Hudson who is cycling around the planet dressed as Superman. And today is a totally different storey because it’s not an entrepreneurial leap. as such. It’s actually a man who loves being a nice job loves the corporate world, but is willing to try and do different things. He a man who has been looking at what makes high performing teams in the corporate world for over 25 years. Is it the leaders that bring everything together? Or is it just the combined sum of all the parts that make a team that hums like a well tuned engine? Can we build teams that go off like a rocket from the start, or is it slowly slowly, slowly approach the building effectiveness, but companies are looking for the world over? Well, through his hands on study for working for trans world system has been nearly 30 years. He’s built up ideas of the right way to go about it, which he has presented to the world. And he’s well received books all contact leadership, and what exceptional leaders no co authored with Tracy Spears, the books are littered with practical advice and real life examples of the way to go to be seen as a leader that people will want to work for. So did he start his studies into leadership early? Or did he like many of us just realise that certain people he was working under was simply not up to the job? And can you see a change in the way that leadership is seen and taught now, compared to when he started his career back in the mid 80s? Well, let’s find out as we bring on to the show to start Join Up Dots, but one and only Wally Schmader, how are you Wally?
Wally Schmader [2:10]
I’m very well. Good morning, David, how are you?
David Ralph [2:13]
I’m extremely well, extremely wrong. But I feel I feel very up today, I’ve been recording, three or four really powerhouse shows. And it is nice to get a different vibe. We were talking just before we were recording about the the angle of the show that we’re going to present today. And it is in many ways, it’s a different angle, because you are somebody that holds your hands up and says, I love my job. And there’s not an awful lot of people out in the world or it doesn’t seem to be that can actually make that bold statement. So how much do you love your job bully?
Wally Schmader [2:46]
Well, I love my job because it’s given me an opportunity to learn about about leadership and my role. I work with teams inside my company and work with teams outside my company, and over the last many years have worked with hundreds of different companies and in that have been exposed. There’s so many different leaders and so many types of leadership. And it’s amazing that the what can happen when a good leader is leading an organisation and what can happen in a bad leader leading an organisation. And I’ll ask you a question, David think try to think of a try to think of a profession where the variation between the best and the worst practitioners is so wide as management and leadership.
David Ralph [3:22]
Football, it’s football, football management. What about
Wally Schmader [3:26]
there’s one, yeah, and there’s no such thing as leadership malpractice, right? We never talk about that if someone’s a very poor leader, their team just doesn’t perform, the people just don’t have the kinds of careers they can and should have. But a lot of people think of a leader or a manager is just their title, that it’s not a set of skills or something to be worked on or something to be developed. So it’s really interesting to watch the results based on on that person on that manager on that leader. And I’ve had an opportunity to kind of have a front row seat and watch that over these many years, I’ve very much enjoyed it
David Ralph [3:57]
is fascinating when you say that we had sort of cut to the chase on this conversation, because there are people that you will just literally lay down your life for if I asked you to work an extra three hours at night, you will just do it. If I asked you to do whatever you will do it because you just naturally respect them for what they’re doing. And then many other people that you won’t budge an inch because of the way they operate. And it is the difference, isn’t it between leadership and management, as you say leaders make you want to follow them, and management, almost try to push you into doing stuff?
Wally Schmader [4:33]
Yeah, I think that’s exactly right. And a lot of managers and leaders, they resort to manipulative tactics like that they come to believe that because they have the title, because have been given this responsibility and some authority that they can dictate performance. And so they end up in this motivational role where they’re just trying to cajole people or, or even manipulate people, rather than actually leading which which has been, there’s a lot more weight on on leadership, because it asks you to it’s privilege to start, but it also asked you to work on yourself. And there’s a lot of cynical leaders where they they believe that the people they work with must keep improving, must add new skills, I’m sure you’ve seen this. And yet they themselves keep showing up as the same person, you know, every single day.
David Ralph [5:16]
So somehow, have you got to a point where you quite simply love your job? Well, you’re lucky 30 years ago, you started working for this company? Was it just a naturally good fit? Or have you changed as the company’s changed?
Wally Schmader [5:31]
Well, the company is an I think of it kind of like a canvas, right. And if you’re, if you’re in a role that you like, where you enjoy the people you’re working with, and you’re doing good work, usually you can raise your hand and find your way into different projects. And I’ve been fortunate in that respect, I’ve had a bunch of different jobs under the same corporate flag. And it’s, it’s gives me an opportunity to, to really polish my own skill set. And I’ve listened to a lot of the, the other people you’ve interviewed David on the show, and you can hear them, all of them going through that same process, or one way or another saying, Okay, what what situation will allow me to become more of myself, or what situation is closer to how I’d like to live my life or how I see myself going forward in a career or the lifestyle or what, whatever it is. And I think that’s what I’ve found, but I also think that almost everybody and we were discussing this a moment ago, can I can do this, right, they can find a way to raise their hand or work their way into a different project, or volunteer for something different inside or outside of their company. All of those things lead us to, to where we want to go professionally. And there’s so many opportunities without necessarily bailing out and saying, you know, I can’t be here anymore, or I’m leaving or, you know, acting in a way that doesn’t get you any new responsibilities doesn’t force you to learn any new skills. So I think everybody has that flexibility. David, I’m not sure if everybody acts on it. But I think they have it. And I certainly do.
David Ralph [6:52]
I think we’ve corporate gigs. And I’ve been in many corporate roles over the over the years, I find that people are very pleased, obviously, when they get the job, because the commute might be perfect for them, the office, the values of the company, everything is great. And within the first quarter of the year or something, it might start changing direction. And I used to say to them, it’s not the company, it’s you, you’ve lost your spark, there’s that you’re not the same as the person who walked through the door many sort of months ago. So how have you managed to remain that way that you are willing to move on in that company? And you’re not looking at the door going? Right? I’m gonna try myself over veil fat looks better the grass is greener?
Wally Schmader [7:39]
That’s a great question. I mean, I think that’s that’s the big question is, is how no matter what your situation is how you make the best of it, how you continue to develop yourself within that role. And of course, when a person thinks they can’t continue to develop themselves in the role, that is a time to think about leading or changing, but most of us can develop ourselves. And in my case, and I work, I’m in front of clients all the time, you know, I have different projects, my wife and I have other businesses, I consult with other businesses outside of the one that I work for. And all these things were decisions that were made to get me out in the world, in situations where I can learn more, same thing you’ve done, David over your life is changing your situation, changes that the point of view, and all of a sudden, you start to learn different things. So what you end up with, if you’re someone like me is sort of being a an aggregator of best practices, you really get to see a lot, in my case, a lot of leadership, a lot of management. And you you see so much of what works and so much of what doesn’t. And the differences that are so fascinating. And I just can’t think of an area, I guess, because I haven’t studied an area as deeply as I have this one where there’s such a wide variation, like I was saying between people that do and don’t know how to do the job. And I think that these leaders were architects or attorneys or doctors, everybody would know that they can’t do the job. But because it is management and leadership, and they’re not held to a very high standard in many cases, it they don’t change, they don’t get better over time. And I think that that would be the worst thing, right to not to be in a role for a long time. And not get better, you know, not not improve yourself, not not blossom and develop into something better and different over time.
David Ralph [9:09]
Is it easier though, if you are that kind of spirit, you obviously are somebody who is studious, who likes to see what makes people tick and sort of the angles back people come up. If you are somebody who is a paper pusher, and I’ve worked with them that they will come in and they’re just quite happy to do the paperwork, work through an intro, go to lunch, get another intro work to that and then I go home? Is that harder to development? and self? Do you need to be more like you, Ben, those other people? Or can anyone develop themselves?
Wally Schmader [9:43]
Well, I think that that’s that’s the big question that you have in a careers is why am I going to work and for many people, they go to work so that they can enjoy their their time off so that when they do punch the clock at the end of the day, they’re actually done, that they’re not like, like, like you probably aren’t David and I know I am where they continue to think and ponder and wake up the middle of night write something down. So for some people, those would be excellent goals, right? Just Just that’s what they want to do. For others. I think this is the majority for sure. There are opportunities to get a lot more fulfilment and a lot more self development out of whatever role you’re in. Let’s say it is that an administrative role like that, I’ve been in so many situations, David, where there’s someone who is in administrative role in a company that never called himself a paper pusher, but they they are. And in volunteering for something new there or saying, hey, this, this can be improved. Or, again, going back to a leadership, a leader who knows their job, that leader would would notice that Doris who happens to be answering the phone, who is a receptionist, also has really good advertising ideas. But she also seems to be the first one in every day, that she seems to be super positive when people around her they’re in better moods. But she’s great in front of clients somehow, like what she’s got all these additional talents. And leader that’s not looking out for that person to see where they may be able to develop and blossom. That’s where again, the leader can make such a big difference to see that person see these other ways they may develop and, you know, leverage that somehow,
David Ralph [11:07]
then well, that that is the interesting point. Because once again, in corporate land, we all see people that have got a natural talent. And if you give them a task, they will just flourish. But they’re also good at the the bulk that the paper pushing. And we’re not allowed to do the creative stuff. Because it’s easier for the management team to get a lot of work done by keeping these people in there. They’re almost too talented in many different areas. So how do they sort of branch out? How do they sort of say to people, yes, I know that I’m really good at this job. But quite frankly, I’ve had enough of it, I want to sort of move on?
Wally Schmader [11:42]
Well, what I see, and I see it a lot is people that are enrols, they don’t like in many cases, they think those roles are far below their capability. Right? I think most of us would think that that what we’re doing at work, wherever we work is somehow less than what we could be doing, we should be writing a book we should be acting, we should be doing something else. I think in a lot of cases, unfortunately, that conversation about I could be doing more I could be much more responsible, I could be much more successful. I think that conversation takes place in their heads with their friends with their spouses, I am afraid that that conversation doesn’t take place very often with people that can influence their situation, they’re not setting that appointment with their manager, they’re not sitting down with that leader to say, you know, I can do a lot more I can bring a lot more value. And a lot of cases, David, people just they ask for raises, they ask for more responsibility without without making the case, right without making the sale to say, you know, I’ve been watching this happen, let’s say you’re you are that administrative person. And it’s been being done poorly for this long. I’ve got these four ideas on how it can improve. Would you give me an opportunity to do that? And I can’t imagine a sensitive, you know, smart leader that wouldn’t go? Heck yeah, you can try that. If you see anything else around here that you think we can improve? You know, you’ve got a great view for I don’t know how often those conversations are happening. Do you think they happen a lot?
David Ralph [13:01]
I don’t think they happen at all, to be honest, not in the corporate land I worked in. I think so many people have that internal dialogue that you’re saying where they kind of go, what’s the point? What are just is not going to happen anyway. And they like to convince them but that the situation that the rain is the situation that they’re they’re stuck in. And I know that’s not true. And you can change being I am I’m the poster boy of changing things. I took a dramatic leap of faith. And it was the best thing I ever did. Now I look back on it. And I think yeah, it was a series of dots that led up to that, but made me jump back. Right. Once you take that action, things happen. If you don’t take the action, nothing’s going to happen. But I don’t think the minimum point is the conversations are happening.
Wally Schmader [13:47]
Right now. That’s a great, you said it exactly right there. And I think let’s say that the person who’s having that that conversation with themselves, how much they hate their work, how much they hate their their boss, how much they, you know, despise the alarm clock going off in the morning, all those things that so many people live with, the only way to know if you can influence it is to have those conversations say okay, I would like to set up an appointment, I like to talk to you, Mr. Manager, Mr. Boss, about additional value I can bring to the company that’ll make me feel better about my role. And myself, let’s say you, if you never have that conversation, that that discontent really, you can’t really own that, right. It’s kind of a work of fiction in your head that just allows you to think that you’re bigger than your situation. But if you sit down, have a conversation, make your case have specific things that you believe you can, these are what we call crucial conversations, we write about them in the book, David, just sit down and say, here’s the four things, here’s the seven things I can do that will allow me to influence this business influence this entity, whatever it is, if you do that, and you’re still stuck in the same situation, then you know something real about your situation, you know, something that’s not fictional. And maybe there’s something you’d want to act on. Maybe that’s, that would be that impetus we talked about to to make a significant change your life, but you can’t I don’t think you we can’t tell people what they can and cannot do. But it’s, I think it’s a bad situation to have an internal dialogue or come home and complain to your spouse or your friends. And never never even take a small step in the direction of something else.
David Ralph [15:08]
So so let’s detail because this is this is a fascinating point of the conversation, let’s detail those points that you talk about in the book, those seven points, because I’m sure there’s gonna be so many listeners out there, that as we say, they’re in a job and I used to like it, they’ve just kind of lost their way somehow. So what are the things that you would say that they should be asking?
Wally Schmader [15:29]
Well, okay, let’s start with a quote. And this is this is Earl Nightingale. And his famous quote is, you become what you think about. Okay, so let we start there. If that if that’s the this the germ of an eventual action, you say, okay, become what you think about what’s in my head? What’s going through my head? Is it? Is it dread? Is it this, this disdain for the situation I’m in, if you start there, everything’s going to grow out of that thought. So I think that from the leaders and are the book is written from a leaders perspective, what we’re thinking about as leaders, is how can I influence people to be better, and the best way to do that is very easy, it’s to work on yourself, right to actually add additional skills, add additional value, surprise, people with new things that you’ve learned, you know, imagine that that same administrative person, let’s say that he is a receptionist, or, you know, some kind of administrative role paper pusher, if you will, that shows up knowing something brand new, who shows up having read two or three books about how to develop something new, you know, actually becoming a bigger person, and a lot of ways, at least as regards, you know, their skill set that they’re bringing to work, no one could ignore that. And so I would think from a, you know, from the person standpoint, to be working on yourself. And it’s exactly the same from the leader standpoint, if I’m working on myself, that allows me to find more value surface more value, and in my people to see them, you know, if you’re working on yourself, David, you start to see upsides, and everybody, you know, you start to see opportunities, and what’s the difference between my team that’s bad and my team, that’s good. It’s the performance of the People’s my ability to see them getting better performing at a higher level, whatever, the businesses. That’s where it all starts. And I think that’s the beginning and the first answer to the question for sure.
David Ralph [17:11]
So you really have to think about what you want in life and start working towards it, the more you think about it, and I agree with that, and you know, we look back at the the classic Napoleon Hill book, Think and Grow Rich. And that’s really the concept. And I am a total advocate on, I think over time, and to be honest, Wally, I wish I could turn it off, because sometimes I just want to watch the TV or watch a film and not be thinking about what I’m doing. But it’s those moments, isn’t it in the shower, boom, just burst into you. And you suddenly think, Oh, yeah, that’s the way forward, because you’re getting your brain work for you. And it’s, well, as I say, it’s the most powerful computer that the Earth has ever seen. And we’ve got one between our ears.
Wally Schmader [17:51]
Yeah, that’s a great, and you’re showing me that I think I’ve become a fan over the last week preparing for this conversation with you and listening to different shows one of the amazing tools mean, if I’m on my way to work, or listening to the podcast, I’m different when I get there. If I’ve heard these messages that people are saying I mentioned to you, I think of it as that you’re crowdsourcing encouragement, right? you’re reaching out, finding friends and experts to help you crowdsource encouragement for your listeners. And there’s no way that I’m not thinking more about my capabilities and my value at work. If I’ve listened to your show that if I haven’t, it’s a, it’s a very big deal. And that might be the day because of one of these messages, that they go in and have this conversation, right, that they that they sit down. If you flip it around to the leader side, I think there are certain things that we think about as leaders and managers, and one of them is when I’m dealing with a person that that I think could be performing at a higher level, it starts with a question of can’t and won’t, you know, is this person not doing better? Because they can’t, they just don’t know, how is that a training issue? That kind of thing? Or is it won’t? And that would be Is it a motivational issue? Or are they just refusing to do any better. And a good leader understands that on a on a very important level, because if you treat can’t, like a won’t, you’re never going to get results, right? This is a motivational issue, this person is rejecting the idea of what you think they should be doing, where this other person that can’t, hasn’t been trained, they don’t actually know how to do this job any better. They need new skills. And that falls to you as a leader to get them that kind of coaching or that kind of development opportunity. But imagine going through your career not knowing the difference, treating one like the other, what your team would look like just that one thing, that’s one of the hundred ideas that you could get out of any leadership book. You don’t I mean, that that would accrue to something it would crew to a bad business or a poor, a poorly performing organisation. And it’s just one person at a time, one conversation at a time.
David Ralph [19:36]
But a leader doesn’t allow it to get that way anyway, does it all the people that I’ve worked with, and I always used to say to people, am I a leader or a manager, and I was always a leader, I used to believe that if I focus in on the people, then the work will get done anyway. And I’d work with managers who would focus in on the targets. And it didn’t matter about the people doing it, it was just the targets. And I always thought that was the wrong way. So if you if you target an individual by making them feel bigger and more productive, and just, you know, building up their self esteem, magic occurs, but how do leaders get back? Is it a natural thing that you’ve either got or you haven’t? Or is it something that you can start developing yourself?
Wally Schmader [20:21]
I think that that’s another great question.
The the idea of the born leader is is one of the worst ideas, I think that’s ever happened to business, I can see it in other and other situations. But as when you’re talking about businesses, the idea of the born leader is a very bad idea. Because what it does is it takes away the the idea that we’re all developing, you know, we’re all we’re all works in progress, right. And the best leaders, they start with humility, and that that is the most influential leadership asset you could possibly have is humility. And the reason why it’s the number one leadership asset is that it means you’re more influential, right? You’re meeting people where they are, you’re more human, it allows you to improve upon time, you know, a leader who was not humble isn’t going to get better, because I’ve never see any upside opportunity or how they could get better. And and all that humility allows people to see their teams with lots of opportunities to get better, too. I get that question a lot. And my co author Tracy Spears, is is excellent at understanding temperaments. And her her area of expertise is how if you don’t understand different temperaments and people that you’re really only going to be able to work effectively with someone like yourself, because you understand their motivations, you understand why they come to work, you understand their modes, you understand what drives them, what what gives and takes away their energy. And that’s lazy leadership that doesn’t take the time to become a student of different personality types and temperaments is never going to be able to develop a broad team. And so when you see it, and I think your example of a of a athletic coach is a good one, where they have to understand what drives everybody, you know, why does this person want to perform? Why does that person want to perform? Do they have to be a superstar that can can they be a role player what’s in their personality? Imagine if you didn’t take the time to try to figure out any of that. You’re not going to go very far, right? And a lot of executives, for some reason show up to work believing that they can not learn or understand anything about their teams and still get a high level of performance, like you said, just thinking about the targets, thinking about the metrics, and imagining that that’s going to somehow pull people towards them. Not only is that not going to happen, that can’t happen, right? It just doesn’t work.
David Ralph [22:23]
You know, I was watching a TV programme, you’ve got it over there, the American office, we had the UK office. And the very first time I saw the UK office, I actually honestly thought it was a documentary about where I used to work, it just seemed so like where I was. And me and my wife who both came from that environment both felt the same. It was where we were. You look at that now, and obviously it’s a caricature. But all character shows are brilliant, because they’re based on truth. And a lot of those managers that you see in the Steve corral, and Ricky Gervais, these characters are based on people that are out there and today doing doing that kind of routine.
Wally Schmader [23:03]
There’s no doubt about it. Yeah.
David Ralph [23:04]
Did you send that those kind of people?
Wally Schmader [23:07]
For sure. And I think way, and we cover this a lot in the book, there’s a whole chapter about it is just a lack of self awareness, right? Both both of those manager characters and all the real manager characters that are out there who are so much worse, right? Because we’re actually paying them to do the job. It’s a lack of self awareness. They don’t they don’t understand how they’re influencing people. They don’t understand that they may not be influencing people, they don’t see that the whatever example they’re setting is leading to poor performance of different types. And I think those shows, yeah, it could be both of them a case study on how the emperor has no clothes, right? That there’s, there’s a person there who thinks they’re doing a certain job, but they’re actually not influencing anybody’s performance at all. They’re just kind of putting up with them. And it takes a self aware leader to to see how they’re influencing people. And if they’re influencing people, and everything starts that right that I understand how I’m perceived, I understand the words I’m saying matter, all of that, but it’s, I agree with you, it could have been a documentary, there’s a lot of shows like that.
David Ralph [24:07]
When when you go into corporate land, and you talk to individuals, and all they once again, trapped in that that kind of theology that leaders are not them, their employees and leaders are some kind of mythical creature, did you find that there was a VM and us kind of vibe that runs through corporate land?
Wally Schmader [24:29]
There is something like that. And it’s, it’s definitely attached to the word leader, for some reasons, more so than manager even though leadership has less to do with a title than manager does. Right. And it’s, it’s an interesting point you make and I don’t know why I think a leader feels aspirational, right? That you you have to work on yourself to become a leader. And really, you can’t promote someone to be a leader in a lot of ways people, the followers, if you will, they decide who’s leading, and who’s not. And that’s what I think is so important about the word is anybody can be a leader, you, you can sit there at your company, wherever you’re sitting, and lead some aspect of that business, right, you can lead some specialty or something that you’re uniquely sensitive to. It’s a very powerful idea. And leadership, I think is so much more powerful than management, because it doesn’t it’s not task oriented. Right? It’s really more about about influence.
David Ralph [25:17]
So when you started writing your book, was it something that you just scribbled down notes over a period of time and it became a book? Or was it something that you really took a risk on and for, I’m going to put my head above the parapet here, I’m going to put my 25 years of experience into this. I don’t know if it’s gonna work. But it needs to be said, or was it something that you just ended up with 360 pages or whatever in your hand, and you thought, okay, might as well make it into a book.
Wally Schmader [25:47]
Luckily, it wasn’t that the latter, it’s, I’m on a mission. And I believe that leaders can be better and that leaders should be working on their craft the way anybody else would, any other profession. That is, and there’s only a few Jobs that we use the word profession for. And, and one of them is leadership and management. And so I think that, you know, having, as I said, look down on so many different businesses consulted with so many different businesses and worked in one, you know, large business with lots of leaders and lots of managers over a long period of time, I’ve had this front row seat, and I’ve gotten to see how much leader can influence the the daily work lives that people that show up there. And so Gosh, if I, if a book could be written with posted some notes, and pack some napkins and stuff, I would have written 1010 books, I’ve got stacks of those things. But it seems like it has to come together. And I’m sure this is the same way your show works, David with a mission like commitment to making something happen. And so in our case with Tracy Spears, and myself, and we had multiple meetings every week, you know, early and late again, working another job doesn’t make writing a book and easier. Back and forth. She lives in Oklahoma backs back and forth trips on the weekends again. So a huge commitment and two years of work. And the other book that I had had previously was written more in that style, which talking about had accumulated these lessons, let’s stack these up and put them out there for people got a good response for that. But it’s not nearly as as this one is organised in a way that is actionable. And the title, what exceptional leaders know. That’s what it is. But this is what exceptional leaders know. And so there’s people out there that that haven’t had great results as a leader that haven’t had great results influencing people. They’re going to learn things in there that’ll change that for them.
David Ralph [27:27]
But let’s play some words now by Jim Carrey, and I generally play around about this moment. Because at this point, although you’re in corporate land, you’re taking a leap of faith, you’re putting your efforts out there, you’re doing two years of hard slog where ultimately you don’t know if it’s going to pan out to anything. So this is Jim Carrey,
Jim Carrey [27:47]
my father could have been a great comedian, but he didn’t believe that that was possible for him. And so he made a conservative choice. Instead, he got a safe job as an accountant. And when I was 12 years old, he was let go from that stuff job. And our family had to do whatever we could to survive. I learned many great lessons from my father, not the least of which was that you can fail at what you don’t want. So you might as well take a chance on doing what you love.
David Ralph [28:14]
But you’ve said a few times that you’re on a mission, you’ve found the thing that you love, you want to change leaders across the world. How did you know that it was the right thing to do? What made you want to take the risk on it, as he was saying?
Wally Schmader [28:30]
I guess everybody notices things right as they go go through their lives that that they can be influenced, they can get better. And there’s a you know, Joe Strummer, from the clash has always been one of my favourite favourite bands, favourite guys. And one of his quotes David was the way you improve the world is to not put up with substandard anything. Okay, so obviously, you can’t affect everything. But here’s an area I’ve gotten good at this. I’m a good leadership coach, I know, specific things that good leaders can do and learn to get better. And so that that was it, just the feeling that that was mounting up in me. And I got to work directly with many leaders who had good results and great results with some of this coaching. And so I felt like it was almost a job in itself, like, you’ve got to get serious about this. And I think about everybody’s situation, right, they’ve got this particular thing they can see. And that thing can be improved with, with what they know. And you can sit there and have that thought through years and decades and never share it. Or you can you can get up one day and say, Okay, this is something that I do believe I’m going to act on, either inside the company I’m in now, or I’m gonna act on it out in the world. And that doesn’t matter where you’re sitting, you’ve got some great idea, you got some way that you think you can influence many times, it’s just something that you think could be done better, doesn’t even have to be a very big thing. But that starts, right and you’ve done that. So you’ve seen it. And it’s an amazing thing that happens when you’re a different person after you make that decision than you were before.
David Ralph [29:51]
But But the problem with that Wally, and I agree with you totally. But when people can do something easily, and I can do something naturally, you don’t see that there’s a value to it. So everyone out there has got a talent, everybody’s out there is got a unique, authentic self, they’ve got something in them that they can do better than potentially anyone else on Earth. But they can’t see how they can take it from that idea, that passion, that vibe into actually creating income or creating a product. Because why would people buy it? It’s just something I do is just something that’s easy. It’s a mindset, isn’t it?
Wally Schmader [30:28]
It is and that’s where it’s interesting, how many different ways just regular self esteem influences our decisions, like just the idea of the way you described that there is someone whose idea might be great, because they don’t see themselves as being great. How could the idea be? And a lot of that comes back from that that whole working on yourself thing? There’s not hope I haven’t given the impression that anything I know, came naturally to me, I naturally don’t know anything. But if we were on video now, you’d see a wall of books with probably 600 titles, leadership titles, management titles, that have all been read in or somewhere in my head somewhere good book somewhere not. But I think it’s all working on yourself thing, that idea we are working progress. Every day, we’re doing something right, we’re moving towards something, it’s accumulating somehow good or bad. And that that’s that’s what we take out there. That’s what we decided that we’re gonna we’re going to leverage or pivot off of to somehow improve things.
David Ralph [31:22]
But But he do you actually have to know anything. This is a good point that you made, you’ve got the 600 books around there. If you are a conduit that is transferring that information for you to somebody else who’s not going to read those 600 books. That’s good enough, isn’t it?
Wally Schmader [31:39]
That would be good enough. Yeah. It’s interesting, though, that I don’t think even as a conduit, let’s say that that’s all that happened. That was I was aggregating the best lessons I learned in these other books by Tom Peters. And Peter Drucker and you know, all these people, that would be the experts in my area, you know, there’s, we all have our own areas, that wouldn’t be enough. And it could never actually happen that way. Because you put that stuff in, and then you, you mix it up with my unique perspective and my experiences, right, my biases, and you end up with something different. That’s what makes all these works come out as original thoughts when you when you put them to work in your own life. And that’s why I love the idea of self improvement, again, your work on yourself, because you’re unique, wholly unique individual, it’s going to come out differently. And you’re going to end up with a different perspective, or maybe just end up being able to say things in a way that that will hit people differently, that have they just read read it out of a book, my book or somebody else’s book,
David Ralph [32:29]
who I ask you, every time you open your mouth, I agree with what you’re saying. Because you know what I do on a daily basis, I provide a show, which in many ways is very similar to other people shows. But if you’re primed for that message, and I get emails, where people will say I listened to Episode 92, or whatever. And it may not have been an episode that I thought was particularly astonishing, but right right for them. And they email me go, Oh, it was like you were speaking directly to me, because that message just matched up. But we’re cooking on gas. I’ll wait.
Wally Schmader [33:02]
Right? Yeah, that’s great. And that’s someone who just has their antenna up for that. Or maybe it’s that day that they heard it. And that’s the experience people have with books to where they’ll just say, okay, that I don’t know, that’s the best book, but I was in the right mindset to hear that information. And it changed me I’m going to take that forward and change something else, you know, with it. I’m sure that happens all the time with people on your show, because you have so many different types of people with so many different types of messages. I imagine you get that feedback all the time.
David Ralph [33:27]
Well, yeah. And I get it literally every day. I mean, therapy, I really am I have these conversations. And there’s not one that hasn’t resonated with me in certain ways, some all the way through others, just one or two comments that are persons made. And you think to yourself, yeah, there’s a different way of doing it. And that’s why these shows are so powerful, that if you’re not a reader, then you can listen to these on the in the car, you can listen to these on the train going to work, you can listen to these lunchtime, and you can pick up content, which is readily avail the bone is free. But literally, when you’ve got your Aereo up as you say when you’ve got your antenna up, it can be life changing.
Wally Schmader [34:08]
Yep. Yeah, there’s no doubt about that. And there’s, it’s interesting, the whole the audio to that there’s there’s a lot of studies, I’m sure you’ve seen him that talk about how getting information that way somehow makes it stickier, makes it makes it resonate more. And then we’ll remember where we heard it. And you’ll it’s more likely to pop up as something we can use actively. It’s very interesting. And I think you’re in a in the right medium for your message for sure.
David Ralph [34:29]
I remember literally everything that people have said to me, but I can’t remember who said it to me. And that’s, that’s one of the drawbacks. I say, Oh, I was having this conversation with someone, and it’s the nuggets that they give me is amazing. And I will share in other episodes, but for the life of me I can never remember who actually said it to me because there’s just so many. But yeah, it’s it’s brilliant that you have got that stickability as you say that that one conversation that one comment can go in, and may not even come out for a while. But when it’s ready, bang and comes out if I remember. And that can be the first key that can be the first quest to the key to the door. And then you’ve just got to find more twists, and then the door opens. And what you do after that is totally up to you. But everyone out there listening, listening to you talking, listen to me talking, listening to the show before the show tomorrow, whatever, is basically the same message, isn’t it. But we’re on this planet once and we can do amazing things. But you’ve got to want to find that door and start opening it.
Wally Schmader [35:32]
Yep, this is your shot. And you’re going to be writing this life storey page by page decision by decision. And you get to decide what comes next. And I think that there’s different thing and we try hard to give proper attribution when we learn something from somebody. But like you said, it all ends up as a mix in your mind that that affects the choices you make. And you know, we try to do that a lot with the book to put in things that were just said differently, maybe something that you’d learn before he reminds you of something else, but because it was phrased in this way, that it’s stickier. And one of the ways I get asked a lot about the difference between leadership and management, you brought that up earlier, David, and one of the ways that I’ve found easy to describe it is it’s a difference between a thermostat and a thermometer. That a manager is a simple thermometer, they can measure they can evaluate, they understand the atmosphere they’re in, they understand the current state, and they’re measuring it, you know, like a thermometer was and the leader is a thermostat. They’re influencing that environment. They’re setting the stage they’re directly affecting people and action. And it changes things right where you can change things as a thermostat as it as a thermometer, you can only measure your your thermostat and in your your show is influencing the way people are processing what’s happening to them influencing the decisions they make. It’s very important.
David Ralph [36:47]
Who influences you’ve been in this sort of name of famous leaders who inspire you, when you look at them, you think, yeah, they’ve got it this this man or lady has absolutely nailed it.
Wally Schmader [37:00]
I’ve got a lot of great influences that I think of I’m kind of like a personal board of directors that influenced the way that I think about my job and and also, I know that certain personality types are going to learn more from a certain kind of message. So I’ll think about if I’m working with a certain kind of manager, that the Tom Peters type approach would work better or this other person would go for, like you said a Norman Vincent PL kind of kind of approach. My biggest influences have been these these great management writers and leaders over these many years that have put out such great stuff. And I mentioned a few of their names already. But Max Dupree is another one of strong leadership author and thinker. Robert Greenleaf wrote this book called servant leadership, which influenced me in a lot of ways. A lot of the classic motivational guys like Jim Rowan and Brian Tracy, even Ziegler affected the way that I deliver the message that I’ve got, gosh, I could give you dozens, my head is full of people that have given me great advice, some living some dead. But I consider myself full of everybody’s up great ideas. And some of it comes from fiction, right? There’s things in movies, I’ve heard that in some of your broadcast people influenced by movies and songs, and it all goes in the mix.
David Ralph [38:09]
When you ready for it, it jumps out at you done it, I remember when I was about to leave my job. And I went to the movies or the pictures, as we say over here. And literally every 10 minutes, something in that film was like a personal message to me because I was just ready. And my mind was tuned to the possibilities. And I can’t even remember what the film was now. But I was ready. I was ready. And those messages were were mine to take and do what I wanted with. I was talking to Tom Ziegler, who Zika son, and he was a fascinating character. Well, he is a fascinating character, because he’s still alive. But his leadership style was very quietly spoken, it was very, he was very articulate, he was very measured with what he was saying. But everything engulfing he, he said, really hit home with me. Is that something that we’ve got to be aware of as well, that leaders aren’t the ones that scream and shout and rally the troops, and, you know, and high fives and all that kind of business. They’re just somebody that has a quiet, a shortness, but will, people will want to follow quite simply.
Wally Schmader [39:21]
Yeah, and that’s so perceptive. Because there’s, that’s one of the stereotypes right of managers and leaders and the born leader, and all that stuff. And really, those people have a very short shelf life. You know, once you’ve, I’ve worked with people that tried to lead that way. And it’s like a, you’d see their people and you just see this glass of cynicism, when they show up with their latest big speech. And it’s because they haven’t done the work right there. They’re going for leadership shorthand, to say, I’m going to raise my voice, or I’m going to, you know, make a threat, or I’m going to do this very motivational thing. That’s a very short term approach. And that person better be moving along pretty quickly, because they’re not going to influence people very long that way. Usually, the great leaders are actually introverted. They deliver their message in a way that people would hear any other message and they deliver it in a way that’s reliable. So they’re not surprising people with how they approach things. They, they know that they can repeat the same message again and again, if they need to, because it wasn’t born out of some kind of passionate mood that they’re in that day. Now, I’m a big believer in what you’re saying, David, that to deliver it in a measured, premeditated style, because that’s how people talk. That’s the way people accept things, especially coaching.
David Ralph [40:28]
So if we took it into sort of the political arena, say, Barack Obama, and this, this show will probably be listened to in 20 years time, but as we are in 2014, is he a classic leader? Is he a manager? Is he a president? Does he have all those sort of elements? What do you think about him?
Wally Schmader [40:47]
I think that he is I think he’s a very sensitive communicator, you know, whether you agree, politically and already has had their opinions, but I don’t think anybody would disagree, that he is a very reasonable speaker. In other words, he lays down things in a certain way. He has a way of communicating where he always asks little tie down questions. You know, he says, right, you know, or I’m sure you would agree, you know, he’s trying to build consensus, even though this is always nearly always one way communication, we hear it right. He’s always behind the lectern. It’s not necessarily a conversation, but he does a good job making it feel conversational, I think a lot of the great leaders have that whether you feel like you’re in conversation with a person, even though they’re the only ones talking, he appears to be someone who’d be a good listener, even though that’s hard to see, you know, at a distance with someone like that. But um, yeah, I would say he’s a very effective leader, like in a situation to be challenging. And I think a lot of managers are in a situation where not everybody wants you to succeed, not everybody wants to follow what you’re trying to get them to do. So it’s challenging politics, right, very challenging situation for any
David Ralph [41:46]
leader. Because I, in my previous life, I was a trainer. And I used to train on one of the courses I used to do with building rapport. And we used to talk about how people can find the common ground. And we use Barack Obama, because obviously, he’s the president of America, so a lot of time, and he had to look very serious, and you know, do two big speeches and all that kind of stuff. But then we showed him on The Tonight Show, when he was talking about a storey that everyone could relate to when he went for get fried chicken, and he got some grease on these tires. And he he played it perfectly. Is that another thing that leaders do extremely well, they can tailor the conversation to the listener?
Wally Schmader [42:28]
Yes, yeah, he’s a great example of that. And Bill Clinton before him was also very good at seeming to be just one of the folks when he needed to be at a very high power world leader when you needed to be. And that’s, um, yeah, I would completely agree with that. I didn’t see that show. But I’ve seen him and other other situations where he was able to do that immediately and engage whoever the audience was. And somehow, even though we probably have very little in common with brock obama, give us the impression that we have much more.
David Ralph [42:54]
I love that about him when he did bad, as I say, because you do you do see people who missed the point, I’ve had a couple of people on this show who had missed the point totally. And they felt that it was their hour to make their mission statement. And the emotion is being open and honest. And having a conversation and finding those those angles that maybe you haven’t said in any other interview before. But these guys, a couple of them just went for it. And I thought you’re just you’re totally missing what the audience is going to resonate with. They were managers and they weren’t leaders.
Wally Schmader [43:36]
Yeah, I think they probably prepared right. And they had an agenda. And they thought this was their big opportunity to, to make a show of what they know. And yeah, they forgot the format. They forgot there. They’re dealing with someone who does understand things in you. And who actually would probably get the guest to say more meaningful things at the end of your questions, and they would just working down a list. So I heard a couple of those. Actually, I think I know what you’re talking about.
David Ralph [44:01]
Yes, I’m sure you do as well. So what what is Tracy Spears in you? I’m interested, I’m looking at her name and her picture on my screen here. Yeah. Why would she would greatest respect Why did she agree to co author with you? Was it about your talents were a natural match? Did she know you from years gone by? How did that work?
Wally Schmader [44:23]
Right? Well, she just knew how talented I definitely see she is a an old friend. And she is a specialist in a very particular way. She knows as I mentioned all about coaching and learning temperaments. introverts, extroverts, how to get the best results, how to understand yourself, and temperaments of people in businesses. So I like that level of expertise. She has very few other people on the planet knows much about that as she does. The second thing she brings to our partnership is she loves to do public speaking, she travels all the time. She’s always in support of the book. You know, we’re doing a webinar series under the exceptional leaders lab. And she’s helping with that. And frankly, that’s not my favourite thing. I’d rather organise thoughts and organise words and put things down and try to figure out the messaging that’s going to stick to the most different kinds of people, where she just graded the broadcast, David, she’s great at going up and selling the ideas to an enthusiastic group and hearing the laughter and hearing the clapping. That’s Tracy, so she would be with the joke we always talk about is, I’m sure you know, elton john, and Bernie top and you know those two? Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So I always say, when people ask, you know, how is your partnership work? I say, Well, you know, Bernie topping, and everybody says no, and I say exactly. He wrote the songs, right. And Elton is out there, performing them being himself, Tracy’s the elton john and our relationship.
David Ralph [45:45]
And did you seek that kind of personality out? Did you know you needed that to become more successful?
Wally Schmader [45:52]
Yeah, because we wanted to take the book on the road. And we wanted to make sure that we had and she’s probably done already 30, big, big, you know, speeches and supported the book, I’m covering different things. And these all work into coaching opportunities where we get to work with individuals and businesses, you know, as a result of getting out there. So yeah, it was very premeditated. She knows my strengths, and I understand hers and yeah, very deliberate.
David Ralph [46:14]
So So what is on your radar? Now Ben Wally, you you’ve released the books, you say that you’re very happy in your company. And I don’t disagree with that at all. You seem extremely company, happy in your company. Do you see a time when what you’re doing now your your art spin activities will take a bigger, bigger priority. And ultimately, you will end up being entrepreneur you own take a leap or do to see it working hand in hand?
Wally Schmader [46:40]
Well, I hope that you know, everything’s going very well with the book, I appreciate you saying nice things about it, we ended up number one on the Amazon sellers for business books, which is a big deal made us feel very proud of that. And people getting some really good feedback on the book, which makes us happy. We’re starting this series of webinars that I mentioned, called the exceptional leaders lab. And that’s that I can, we’ll start up in January, actually, there’s a series of talks where Tracy’s going all over the place in support of the book, as I mentioned. So all these things can be done, you know, with what I’m doing now, and it ends up making me a busy person, which I like. I don’t see a time where I’d have to commit either way, one of the other because they don’t overlap very much. I get a lot of creative time. I’m an early riser up at five o’clock every morning working on something. So I will almost think of it like a part time job, David and one that hopefully will be as fruitful as my full time job.
David Ralph [47:33]
Well, let’s take the words to another job and that Steve Jobs see what they want a that was that was a Segway and wow,
Wally Schmader [47:40]
that was impressive. Your pro that was good when that.
David Ralph [47:42]
And this is the theme of the whole show. This is what Join Up Dots is all about. And I like to play it because I like to really delve into whether you can see your path to where we are now. Was it something that was stumbles and falls was it planned all the way through? This is Steve Jobs.
Steve Jobs [47:59]
Of course, it was impossible to connect the dots looking forward when I was in college. But it was very, very clear looking backwards. 10 years later. Again, you can’t connect the dots looking forward, you can only connect them looking backwards. So you have to trust that the dots will somehow connect in your future. You have to trust in something, your gut, destiny, life, karma, whatever. Because believing that the dots will connect down the road will give you the confidence to follow your heart, even when it leaves you off the well worn path. And that will make all the difference.
David Ralph [48:34]
So can you look back at your path and go Yes, it was planned or was it exactly as he says about he was just life took over. And you can only connect the dots by looking back.
Wally Schmader [48:46]
I love that, that quote and that whole speech actually. And he’s a he’s an amazing guy. What I really appreciate about Steve Jobs, although I know it wasn’t your exact question. But what I appreciate is, he seems you know, our generation of leaders is so amazing, right? They were living in an age where you expect business leaders to be principled and innovative and responsible. Even philanthropic, right? And the generation before us did not expect that of their leaders. But these guys Jobs, Jeff Bezos, Mark Zuckerberg, Bill Gates, who are the surge, a brand and Larry Page that Google guys Richard Branson, all these guys. They’re amazing, right? They’re working on themselves. They’re bringing these crazy, positive messages into the world. And they’re eccentric, right? Like, like he was when Jobs was originally dropped out of college, but keeps going to classes experiments with acid, a practising Buddhist spends extended periods of time in India, fired from the company that he that he founded, right. So for me, I think from my dots, he’s just a great role model to remind us that we’re all writing the storey of our lives, right, the storey of our careers, whatever it is, and that these decisions we make, and you think about all of his decisions, and you look at your own life and think about the decisions you make. And it just are they taking you Where do you want to go? It isn’t obvious going forward usually is more obvious, looking backward, as he says. But it’s it. There’s only one you right? So these are your thoughts. They’re not anybody else’s, and make sure that you’re making decisions that are leading you to the place you want to go. And even though it may not be obvious and Jobs is we’re not obvious, it will be in hindsight.
David Ralph [50:15]
And do you have a big adult, but you look back on and go, yeah, that was when it really started to come together. For me.
Wally Schmader [50:22]
Something happened to me where I was a very serious person, as a young, professional, you know, I went into the corporate world almost out of momentum, almost just out of lack of deciding anything else, David, so I ended up on a on a track. That was a very conventional track, but something and I don’t even I can’t point to a day. But along the way, I somehow realised that the decisions that I was making were not permanent, I don’t have to think I’m with with quite the weight that I was thinking of them with, I was thinking that everything was this big, you know, non revocable decision. And so I learned at some point gradually, in my early 20s, that you that you’re going to be making adjustments and refinements in the direction of who you want to be how you want to live. You don’t I mean, and once I understood that there’s a series of adjustments and refinements as long as you’re living very deliberately, that you’re going to have this great life that did, you’re going to get to do interesting things meet interesting people have amazing experiences. And I don’t know what it was. But just the idea that these are not permanent decisions I’m making, I can make adjustments and changes as I go along.
David Ralph [51:22]
It’s as simple as that, isn’t it. But that’s the astonishing thing. Once you do make that conscious mind, switch, but it’s a series of decisions that you can make. And they don’t have to be the be all and end all. They don’t have to be the you’re going to jump ship, and then suddenly your big success, you’re going to work at it and work at it work at it. That’s what everyone’s done. No one ever becomes a millionaire unless their mom and dad give them a million pound or whatever. They all work towards it Don’t be and not every decision is right. Not every decision is wrong. But if you make enough decisions, hopefully it will pan out for you about your you’ve got have a chance to make a life that you won’t.
Wally Schmader [52:03]
Exactly, yeah, you’re writing the storey of your life. It goes page by page decision by decision. And you can start the next chapter whenever you want. You can start it today, you can start it tomorrow, and you’re in charge. And that’s a powerful message. Right. And some people they’re not they don’t always want that kind of authorship of their own lives, and they prefer to complain about their situation. But that’s not your audience, your audience, I think is is wanting to live this deliberate, examined life and understanding what those decisions are adding up to something is crucially important. I agree with you.
David Ralph [52:33]
When I started this job, it was the first time I think, really I took active decision making to the highest level I possibly could. I think before then I’d always done stuff that was convenient, or it was near me or paid the most money. This was the first time that I’ve had something but I have made those decisions. I’ve worked harder than I’ve ever done before. And I’ve had focus I haven’t changed direction I’m just working towards Yeah, you might sort of tweak it slightly here or there. But pretty much you know what direction you’re going in. And I will tell you, and I will tell all the listeners out there, man, once you start doing that, it’s amazing how quickly you get to your destination or a destination. It just it’s astonishing. And it makes me wonder why I didn’t do it many, many years before.
Wally Schmader [53:22]
That that kind of what you’re saying that deliberate choice and it can hear it I can hear the passion enthusiasm in your voice. And imagine had you not done it and and I know what you’re talking about when you talk about decisions that are kind of made accidentally or passively and you end up in a place you never intended to go and it goes back to your Jim Carrey. quote you play that you did, you can fail at something you didn’t even want to do. At least reach right at least try and make that live that examine life that that we all want to live and make those decisions that take us where we want to go not some place that we just end up.
David Ralph [53:53]
That’s the whole message isn’t it, you take away everything. If you take away the the 48 minutes around that we could just play about one speech, find something you love and take a risk on it. Because you might as well you could find something you don’t love.
Wally Schmader [54:10]
David Ralph [54:12]
Well, this is the end of the show Wally. And this is the part that we like to call VM but joining up hope your dots This is the Sermon on the mic. And we’re going to send you back in time to have a one on one with your younger self. And if you could go back in time and speak to the young Wally, what age would you choose? And what advice would you give? Well, we’re going to find out because I’m going to play the theme tune and when it fades, you’re up Mrs. The sermon on the mic.
Here we go. With the best beer of the show.
Wally Schmader [54:57]
I would start by meeting myself when I was just moving into adulthood in my 19 2021 years old. And I told myself that the decisions I was making that felt so important at the time, work decisions, I could change later that I wasn’t deciding who I was going to be for the rest of my life, I was just deciding who I was going to be at that age. And that all these experiences that I would have going forward in business, as a leader as a person, as a husband, as a father would influence the person I was going to turn out to be, I would tell myself that I’m writing a storey and it’s a long storey with these decisions I make. And I want to make sure that it goes where I want it to go. And to to give myself the space to breathe, and pay attention to the decisions I’m making to make sure that I get to live the life and be the person that I want to be as an adult. And it continues right now I’m 50 years old and the same same messages keep resonating where you want to be deliberate with the choices and you want to land as a person that you set out to be and then that’s happening for me and it can happen for for everybody.
David Ralph [55:57]
Wally, how can our audience connect with you sir?
Wally Schmader [56:00]
Well, I would like to connect with people on LinkedIn. I’ve got a great group of followers there for those of you in the business world. I have a Twitter feed called leaders notes. That’s that’s there on Twitter. I’ve got you can find the book at Amazon. It’s what exceptional leaders now and I’m put a lot of great messages in there. I’d love for people to to hear and to give me some feedback on
David Ralph [56:22]
those are probably the best places, David, we will have all the links on the show notes. Wally, thank you so much for spending time with us today. joining up those dots. Please come back again when you have more dots to join up because I do believe that by joining up those dots and connecting our past is the best way to build our futures. Wally, thank you so much.
Wally Schmader [56:40]
Thank you so much David.
David doesn’t want you to become a faded version of the brilliant self you are wants to become so he’s put together an amazing guide for you called the eight pieces of advice that every successful entrepreneur practices, including the two that changed his life. Head over to Join Up dots.com to download this amazing guide for free and we’ll see you tomorrow on Join Up Dots.