Welcome to the Steve Jobs based Join Up Dots with Isabel Foxen Duke
To subscribe to the podcast, please use the links below:
Introducing Isabel Foxen Duke
Starting her career in the Corporate world, our guest started her working life as far away from being the kick ass slayer of weight issues that you could possibly hope to be.
Working at first for Citibank, she moved through a series of banking positions at a rate of knots.
Many of them not lasting more than a few months in total.
A lady trying to find herself, whilst earning a living.
Not understanding the true passions that she had for helping others.
But all the while building the hustle muscle to explode from the gates when the opportunity appeared to her.
How The Dots Joined Up For Isabel
And that opportunity looks as if it appeared when she started working for the New York Institute for Integrative Nutrition that the dots began to join up and the path began to show itself to her.
But perhaps it didn’t and she was always interested in what caused weight issues and how to resolve them.
I suppose we will find out during the conversation, but what is true is as she says in her own words “My goal is to empower women around the issue of weight management and body image, so they can start living their lives like the badasses they really are.
Your weight dramas are scared of me – I slay them all day. ”
So was she a lady that has struggled with weight in the past, or was she someone surrounded by people that she realised that she could help?
And what was it about the corporate world that for an outsiders point of view didn’t really fit her?
Well let’s find out as we bring onto the show to start joining up dots with the one and only, Isabel Foxen Duke
During the episode we discussed such weighty topics with Isabel Foxen Duke such as:
Why so many women play a timid role and do not think that they can show outward confidence to the world. But they can and should!
Why she feels that growing up in New York gave her an urgency to hustle more and take action quickly whenever required.
Why she is focused on really drilling down to the 20% of the core values that will bring about the 80% results and rewards from her business.
How she was primed to work in finance as a young woman but never really felt that it was fitting her overly well.
How she had a willingness to have a different option to everyone else in her life, which has been a huge benefit going forwards to success.
How To Connect With Isabel Foxen Duke
You can also check our extensive podcast archive by clicking here– enjoy
Interview Transcription Of Isabel Foxen Duke
When we’re young, we have an amazing positive outlook about how great life is going to be. But somewhere along the line we forget to dream and end up settling. Join Up Dots features amazing people who refuse to give up and chose to go after their dreams. This is your blueprint for greatness. So here’s your host live from the back of his garden in the UK, David Ralph.
David Ralph [0:26]
Yes, hello, everybody and welcome to Join Up Dots. This is Episode 254. And it’s gonna be good cause it’s gonna be good because I tell you that every single time every day, I pretty much say exactly the same. It’s gonna be a powerhouse. And I’ve already been speaking to the lady and I know that she’s going to deliver because she’s got a varied career. She started her career in the corporate world and started really her working life as far away from being the kick-ass layer of white issues that you could possibly hope to be and that she is today, working at first for Citibank. She Through a series of banking positions at a rate of knots, many of them not lasting more than a few months in total, a lady trying to find herself whilst earning a living, not understanding the true passions that she had for helping others. But all the while building the hustle muscle to explode from the gates when the opportunity appeared to her. And that opportunity looks as if it appeared when she started working for the New York Institute for integrative nutrition. But the dots began to join up and the path began to show itself to her. But perhaps it didn’t. And she was always interested in what caused weight issues and how to resolve them, I suppose we’ll find out during the conversation. But what is true is as she says, in other words, my goal is to empower women around the world on the issue of weight management and body image so they can start living their lives like the badasses, they really are. Your weight dramas are scared of me I slay them all day. So what she a lady that has struggled with weight in the past or she’s someone surrounded people, but she realised that she could help and what Was it about the corporate world that from an outsider’s point of view just didn’t really fit? Well let’s find out as we bring onto the show to start joining up dots with the one and only Isabel Foxen Duke. How are you Isabel?
Isabel Foxen Duke [2:11]
I’m good thanks David How are you?
David Ralph [2:13]
I am very very well although as I said before the recording I was slightly freaked out but I was speaking to the young lady because your picture looks dramatically different from the one that I’ve been staring at all week. Are you are you a lady that likes to change your image with the wind or do you sort of stay for a season in a certain colour and then move on later on?
Isabel Foxen Duke [2:33]
Well, you know, I’ve really only had one major physical transformation since I you know, kind of went public on the internet with my business and my my personhood really, and that was you know, this going from sort of, you know, your, your next door blonde haired girl to a little bit more of a, you know, fierce brunette. So I made I had the one major transition really and I feel this is this is much more true to who I am and so I I’ve had I’ve had that been a brunette now for a little while it’s just you know, it’s overwhelming to change every image on the internet and of course my own my own Skype account where I’m recording this from was the last to go I guess
David Ralph [3:16]
he’s some ladies fingery isn’t it changing? Because it seems the image that I’m looking at with the theist brunette is a total is not just an image change is almost a personality change as well. I take what you said totally from the sort of Girl Next Door look to this, this business woman who’s out there to to kick booty.
Isabel Foxen Duke [3:39]
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Which is, you know, how I feel. I feel like that really does mirror a shift that I had in Me, personally, you know, I and I think that that that also mirrors a little bit the experiences of my clients and the experiences of the women that I work with and who read my blog and such. You know, it’s um, I think that there’s many of us who are I kind of feel like we have to be a little bit sorry feel like we have to be a little timid, particularly women. And there’s sort of a desire to, to break out of that and really sort of own our worth and our power and, you know, feel a little fierce, you know, feel a little confidence
David Ralph [4:19]
is a good thing, though, isn’t it? competence because if you think about all the really successful ladies out there across the world, they’ve all got a very strong image. And it’s the image that breeds the competence or is it the competence that breeds the image?
Isabel Foxen Duke [4:34]
It’s really the chicken or the egg, I think that they think they kind of feed each other. You know, I mean, on the one hand, there is my friends and my personal life will tell me that they see a stark difference between Isabelle Fox and Duke, you know, the sort of internet personality and Isabel Duke I don’t actually usually go by my middle name in my personal life. I don’t you know, really use it that often Isabelle Duke Sort of, you know, the girl they grew up with and, and, and I, it’s funny I feel like I can’t tell the difference anymore I feel like I’m kind of morphing into one and they’re kind of they’re, they’re, they’re hard for me to separate now I think I’m not sure what I’m not even sure what came first the desire to be a certain to to create a certain image on the internet which then obviously led to photography and and you know sort of visual representations of that or or just was the desire to become that really part of who I was. It’s hard to know. But a strong
David Ralph [5:37]
image PR branding is so important, isn’t it, but anyone out there who’s listening to this conversation, and they are thinking of doing something online and for for many of us, it’s the easy way of doing it because you don’t have to pay rent and overheads and stuff. You can create a business on a shoestring having that sort of identifiable image that people will relate to that is Uber powerful. Isn’t it?
Isabel Foxen Duke [6:01]
Yeah, absolutely. It’s, it’s, you know, I really I remember talking to my, my photographer because that’s really what I think is driving my branding. I have really really special photography and my photography really as an as a more editorial look rather than what a lot of sort of life coaches and a lot of internet people have, which is a little bit I think, especially in the nutrition world in the health world and the women’s coaching world, they’re 10 that when I was getting into this business, there tended to be more of a focus on the girl next door look. And everyone kept saying to me, differentiate yourself, differentiate yourself, differentiate yourself, like How are you different than every other female life coach that exists and this was three years ago, so you know, times have changed, but three years ago, it was like all about like pink and kale and girl next door, kind of, you know, I’ll be your best friend kind of have a feeling. And I remember thinking to myself, well, you know, in reality, you know, I grew up in New York City. I you know, there are I do have a little bit of an edge, I kind of want to appeal, I had an understanding that the the target market that I was going after was either a woman who had that, you know, young, professional urban sensibility, or a woman who aspired to that in some capacity, right, like a woman who’s watching Lena Dunham show girls, or a woman who it were Sex in the City or that kind of thing. And so one or the other, whether whether a person actually identifies as such or aspires to that kind of personality and fierceness, I knew that that was, that was the woman that I wanted to relate to in my business, and that was the woman that I wanted to ultimately work for. So I think that really influenced how I ended up creating my brand visually. So So currently growing
David Ralph [7:53]
up in New York City that does it give you an age I’ve been there many times as a tourist, but other than a Seven week burst I had to live there. Well, I was working. Growing up fair. Does it make you more edgy even somebody growing up in say San Diego or sort of California?
Isabel Foxen Duke [8:12]
That’s funny that you mentioned San Diego in California because I think in some ways, Cal Well, I’ll say yes. If by edgy you mean literally like on edge. I think New York is particularly fast paced. It’s particularly driven, it’s particularly focused on ambition and getting things done. It’s a really action oriented city. I don’t find that as much in California. Not that I haven’t actually Well, I’ve lived in California for you know, at most, a few months at a time, but I, you know, visited and travelled there pretty frequently. And California is definitely seems a lot more relaxed and laid back. Chill out, man, you know, and that’s sort of the vibe in California. Now, California is I would say think of themselves as being edgy in quotes in a different way. Right, like they have, there’s a uniqueness to California. There is a style and a fashion statement attached to California that I think could even be separated into northern versus Southern California and maybe even parts in the middle. So it’s it’s, I don’t, there’s California is certainly not boring. But it’s definitely, in my opinion, based on the experiences I’ve had with it a more relaxed, more calm environment a little bit more live to live work to work, which is very different than New York, New York is like you come here to get it done. You come here to achieve that is what New York is about. And if you are not playing that game, it’s very sink or swim right? Like you, you know, you either won’t survive or you’ll be miserable.
David Ralph [9:48]
so on this show, we talk about hustle muscle and getting out there and flexing the old hustle muscle, but growing up in New York at the pace of it and it’s a very fast city. Does it kind of are you Blame, urgency. Did you do feel that when you go into a different city, you’re actually working at a different pace, Ben Ben, and you are flexing your muscle more often?
Isabel Foxen Duke [10:10]
Oh, 100%. I mean, I mean, the energy in New York is palpable. I’m actually I have to say, getting a little sick of it. I am like on the verge of I’ve been trying to leave New York for about a year and a half. It’s very hard to escape, especially for those of us who grew up here because it’s almost like where I don’t even know where else I would go. But at the same time, I feel it wearing on me. It’s wonderful for people who are in a place in either their careers or their lives where they are ready and bursting to create and to be action oriented and to sort of flex that hustle muscle, you know, in the periods of my life when I’ve been really ready to flex that hustle muscle like when I was first starting my business, the energy of New York, fueled me so much and fed me so much But I will say, after a while you got to be I have to be aware of burnout and be conscious of sort of just, you know, managing and monitoring how that energy in my life. It was somebody
David Ralph [11:17]
who’s got so much energy and you have because you’ve created this, this great platform, which we’re going to talk about later on on the show. What Why has it taken you a year to escape New York? You seem to me, somebody would go, right, I’m going to do this. Bang, let’s get it sorted. Why Why do you feel that that’s holding? You bet someone?
Isabel Foxen Duke [11:37]
It’s a really good question. I am. Well, so I’m very clear on what I’ve overcome and what I’ve sort of achieved in my life. I’m also very clear on where I have areas of my life that I probably need to work on. One of them is fear of isolation, or maybe this is maybe this isn’t even fear. Maybe I’m self deprecating. I mean, I may be putting myself down right now for no reason. I mean, I think that there is something to be said for. One of the reasons I’m afraid of leaving New York is because New York is so filled with people, and so filled with professionals in my life. And my friend, you know, my friends, like I said, I grew up here, my whole family’s in New York, I’m a little bit nervous about reestablishing community in a new place, which, you know, everyone says, to me is so easy, you know, you’d be able to make friends anywhere, but for some reason that really makes me nervous. It makes me nervous to reestablish community in a new place where I, you know, would barely know anyone I feel I’m spoiled in New York in that way. I’m really spoiled by community in New York. So even though the energy is a little bit intense, and sometimes I just like want to bust out and escape. You know, I have to admit, there’s a lot of benefits to me and living in New York, both professionally and personally. And I think that those are those are hard to let go of for perhaps, you know, good credible reason,
David Ralph [13:01]
I think, really, if you went to the nuts and bolts of it, the fear that your fear feeling for leaving New York isn’t about what you said, it seems to me, it’s more likely that you realise when there’s a new focus to your life, you’re quite happy where it is at the moment, you’ve got a business, it’s rocking and rolling, you’re taking it away from the comfort zone and putting into an environment where you’ve got to establish yourself again. And if you look at all the successful people that have moved through roles and careers, by reestablish themselves don’t know they move on to the next part, and they go to the next part, and they keep on going, they trying out. I think that you are and this isn’t not me coaching you in any shape or form. But I think that you’re slightly reluctant to shake or upset the status quo of what you constructed because you’ve done it so well, where you are.
Isabel Foxen Duke [13:52]
Well, I think there’s certainly some validity to that. I mean, I will say so about a year ago, I almost moved to Washington DC for a love interest. And like I was so ready to go and wasn’t really I mean, I was ready to go regardless of the relationship but I was, I was like planning to go I had made the decision like I am moving to Washington DC This is my chance I have this opportunity. The community part’s going to be easy and going for a man he already has his friends he already has, it’s going to be so like for some reason I had rationalised that this was going to work and at the last second I pulled the plug because it really for I was I was a little exactly what you said I was nervous about somehow it impacting my career somehow, like, you know, things professionally, I think are going really well for me and I feel almost like I don’t want to disrupt my environment or disrupt the balance of that in any way. So I do think that there’s some there’s definitely something to be said for that and I am also somewhat aware of that, as long as I I think I don’t want to put energy into moving or into developing a new community or going through the emotional hassle that would be involved in moving. When I feel like right now, I really should be focusing my energy on just building my business.
David Ralph [15:17]
I think in life, there’s the 8020 principle isn’t 20% of your efforts bring about 80% of your rewards. And I think in all our lives, when we actually analyse what we are spending our energies on, more often than not, is not actually on that 20% is all the other stuff. And it’s a key thing when when businesses exploded to the next level is when they’ve realised that concept, and I realised that all the the sort of eight hours a day event, they’re doing this and back on whatever, actually isn’t their core function. It’s not bringing the results
Isabel Foxen Duke [15:52]
way. Yes, that’s a hard it is really it’s a little it’s challenging to will to do two things and this Something I actually think about a lot, right is as I’m growing and you know, hiring new people to do stuff, you know, to help me that maybe I don’t need to be doing that kind of thing as we think about delegating work and stuff. It. I’m not exactly First of all, I feel like it’s difficult, I find that a lot of the busy work that I do that I know isn’t important, is it just is somehow like a procrastinates like a way of procrastinating or distracting myself from doing what’s really important. And I think that I have to be conscious of not falling into doing busy work that really isn’t my core function. And also, of course, there’s like figuring out exactly what your core function really is identifying what the 20% really is, which I think is also a you know, a challenge and can be a struggle. At this point. I’m becoming very clear what that 20% is, but I am finding myself sort of easily distracted by these like, you know, almost like these, you know, emails and tweets and little shiny objects on my computer screen and that are you know, really about The 80% that I don’t need to be wasting my time on, but they they suck. They, they’re, you know, it’s like the internet as a black hole. I just I get it’s very easy to be distracted by that 80% I think
David Ralph [17:10]
so. So let’s frame it for the listeners, what is your 20%? What is your core business? We’ve sort of talked around it and we know it’s to do we wait issues, but to give us sort of an explanation of what you’re all about?
Isabel Foxen Duke [17:24]
Yeah, so well, so the 20% is really anything that’s directly related to my creating either informational content or actually doing Covino coaching direct coaching for women to help them change the relationship with food in their body. Ultimately, help women stop feeling crazy around food in their body, which is something that too many women and men to a certain extent, but women more so for very specific cultural and social reasons, are just feeling this insanity around food and body in general. epidemic proportions. And it is creating a lot of problems for women, you know, on a and men like I said, to a slightly lesser extent, on the physical level on a psychological level, emotional, spiritual, I mean on ins if social, economic and so many different ways. And my real core if I’m very clear that my core function in the world is to provide a solution to this problem that, in my opinion, isn’t really being effectively solved. Because it’s the different groups that are trying to solve it are not really working together. They’re kind of split off into factions, right. So there’s people talking about body image from a social perspective, and talking about problems in the media talking about weight as a social issue kind of over here on the left, and then on the right, there’s therapists and people in the clinical world who are really talking about we as it relates to Okay, how are we going to fix your food? How are we going to fix your food, food, food, food, food, food, food, food, and There’s not a lot of sort of crossover and seeing where the social meets the psychological where eating behaviours meet this meet the social and psychological. And so there’s just it’s a very complex topic. And I my real goal is to be sort of a synthesis of that information in a way that’s digestible for women.
David Ralph [19:19]
Because I’ve travelled America extensively, and I’m not a great eater. I just really haven’t got a love for food. Give me a little tablet, and I’ll take it first thing in the morning. It doesn’t mean for the whole day, that’d be perfect. But when you in America, it’s just food everywhere, isn’t it that they’re sitting on the corner sending it in the shops are setting it in the cinemas wherever you go, you can basically eat a meal. And I remember actually being in a cinema in was in Dallas, where you could actually press a button during the film and these like black ninja people would bring you a proper dinner while you were sitting watching a film. And I thought this is amazing. You can’t even go through a film for two hours without eating mill. So how do you overcome those issues when the world and especially the sort of American media are blasting the people that have got the issues with the thing that is causing the issues all the time? How do you overcome that? That’s that’s huge, isn’t it?
Isabel Foxen Duke [20:15]
Yeah. Well, I think I think we have to start with education. One is people sort of realising that they are, you know, for lack of a better word really being manipulated by what a friend of mine woman named Alex Jamison was also very successful. Coach and sort of nutrition guru esque type person calls the diet industrial complex, right? When you basically have a situation particularly the United States, where this is being exploited, these ideas are being exploited all over the world. We’re basically let’s just make a tonne of money off of pretty much just feeding people essentially, like make money on making people fat. And then we can make money on making them thin and then make them money on making them fat again, and then make money on making them thin by selling Diet products and you know, it’s just it’s like this, it’s this never ending perfect Yo, yo, that just goes on and on and on and on and on. So I think there is I think step one is really people understanding what exactly is going on here. I think a lot of people intellectually understand it, but don’t necessarily emotionally connect to it or don’t know how to escape it. Right? Like there’s a lot of people who understand diets don’t work in quotes, and that, you know, 90 some odd percent of diets end up failing, but then simultaneously, even though these people intellectually understand it, they keep participating in them, right? Women keep participating in dieting over and over and over and over and over again, knowing full well that they quote, don’t work, because they don’t feel they have any other options. Right. So we have to we have to understand sort of the system that’s sort of really oppressing us, in order in a deeper way in order to escape at what you think that they
David Ralph [21:59]
haven’t got all So the ladies why they’re doing the diets because they don’t want people thinking that they’re just letting themselves go. They’ve got to the point they’re putting some effort in.
Isabel Foxen Duke [22:10]
Exactly, exactly. It’s a cultural expectation that women and I’m just going to speak just from now on just so everyone knows, I’m going to speak about women not to say that this doesn’t affect men. But just for the sake of simplicity, I’m going to speak about women because that’s really the core group that I work with. So for women, basically, there is a social and cultural expectation that women participate in this diet, industrial complex, right? They’re getting it from every angle, they’re getting it from their friends and family, they’re getting it from the media, they’re getting it from men, they’re getting it from everywhere, like you cannot walk outside without seeing an image either of food or dieting or extreme fitness. The beauty standards are obviously like, highly impacted by this which are completely propelled by the media also affects men. But um, you know, so it’s it’s countercultural role to step outside of this, this cycle right? Like refusing to diet and refusing to participate in this like, Yo yo back and forth is, is a radical idea. Really, it’s, it’s incredibly scary for women, it goes against everything they’re taught, their self worth is based in you know, and women are really taught that their happiness and how people will view them and how they’ll be treated by men by employers by the women around them pretty much their entire social life, both on a professional and personal level is determined by the way their body looks, you know, I think women definitely again get that in the message in a different way than men do. And it’s like as long as you believe that How could you not try to do what you can to sort of manipulate your body it’s it’s just you know, I always say it’s not food we’re addicted to really it’s dieting. We’re addicted to a lot of us because the the social status attacks thinness is so compelling and so seductive be
Unknown Speaker [24:03]
easy is it and
David Ralph [24:05]
as I say, I’m just speaking off the top of my head because I’ve never had any issues with weight. I’ve never been on a diet in my life. I’ve just been a naturally skinny guy. So a lot of times my wife is battling weight issues. And I say to her, you know, oh, you look fine. Don’t worry about it. Don’t Don’t tell me that. Don’t tell me that is how I feel. And I say to her, Well, if you feel happier about yourself, then you’d be all right. Is that a kind of simplistic view, because I always remember people go, she’s lost a lot of weight. She must be in love. And it’s that kind of chemical happiness kind of things. When when things go on in your body and your appetite dies away somewhat and you do lose weight. Is it about a mindset shift? Is that how people could ultimately lose weight instead of dieting?
Isabel Foxen Duke [24:50]
Well, so there’s two. There’s two things going on here. So one is kind of I think what what your wife is experiencing is when you say Oh, Don’t worry about your weight, just be happy. in her mind, she’s thinking how naive, like, What are you talking about? Like I know there is. So how can you deny that there’s social privileges attached to fitness? And that I would, you know, my life would be better if I were thin, right? Like, again, women constantly are getting this message that their life would be better if they were thin and that just most women don’t want to talk about body image. They don’t want to talk about just loving themselves the way they are, because they see the rewards of fitness as being incredibly concrete and real, which has validity to it. Right. Like, I mean, really, like, like I said, their social status attached to thinness in our in, in, you know, in the United States, certainly. And increasingly throughout the world. There’s a lot of social status attached to thinness. And that becomes that’s, that’s all women want. You know, women just want in women, humans, not just women, humans, they just want respect and love and, you know, being sort of addicted in quotes to wanting to be thin or wanting to to Your body can be as concrete can sort of be as seductive as like wanting money, or wanting just respect, you know, any, any sort of material object that we associate with status, basically, it really is an issue of it becomes an issue of social status, right? So there’s, there’s that reality that we’re dealing with. But then to come back to your point, which is about so where does this connect with women psychologically and emotionally? Right? When social status is attached to something so firmly? What ends up happening is that anytime you’re upset with your life, right for a lot of women, anytime you’re unhappy with your life, anytime work isn’t going so well. Or your relationship is suffering or you feel unloved in some capacity or, you know, maybe it’s just like you had a bad day. You know, it doesn’t have to be super dramatic. It doesn’t need to mean that there’s like some crazy thing that’s going wrong in your life. Your life could be great. But just like as a human being, you could have just had a rough day and you know, maybe things didn’t go quite the way you planned for whatever reason, you know, kind of, we’re not so in control of the world all the time. And I think when we’re dealing with those kinds of emotions, it’s very easy to think, Okay, well, what’s the fastest, easiest way for me to improve my life? Right? And, and we really, I think, for women seems to be the easiest, fastest solution to that. And, and a solution which they perceive to be in their control. It’s like a diet. It’s like, Oh, yeah, I’ll just go on a diet and I’ll lose 10 pounds and will be easy. And we really rationalise and we really convince ourselves that this is an easy solution to just making our lives feel better when we’re not feeling so hot. So So
David Ralph [27:45]
linked always to food, or was I right, in the introduction, it seemed to me you was in a corporate path. And just the fact that you were on your LinkedIn profile. This is where I was getting this, you moved through a series of banking roles very, very quickly. But once you got to the New York Institute, I was the first place that I thought that’s foodie. That’s that’s the first thing that I could see that there was a connection to where you are now. Is that a naive view? Have you always been interested since a small girl?
Isabel Foxen Duke [28:15]
I have always been interested since I was a small group when I was in high school, actually, I published a book of pi edited and published. While I wasn’t, I wasn’t self published, I actually had a publisher published me when I was in high school, which was very unusual. I was a little bit of an overachiever in high school, as you can imagine. And, you know, a book about body image and you know, I was always fascinated by this issue, because I struggled with it. You know, like, I think that we become obsessed with what we really feel impacts us personally. I will I struggled with food and weight my entire life from a very, very young age. So I was always fascinated by this. I was always doing work around this. But ultimately, it didn’t occur to me that I could actually make a career out of it. Because I didn’t have the answer for a really long time for a really long time I was struggling with no answer. Right. And so, you know, I was I was taking these banking jobs and you know, I, my entire family works in finance, I was primed to work in finance my entire life, like I was set up from birth to work in finance, everyone in my family, they’re all just, you know, business people specifically on Wall Street. You know, they run hedge funds and, you know, work at big corporations. And that was that was sort of like my birthright. And so I was just following the path that was laid out for me because, you know, I didn’t, there was no, it didn’t it didn’t it didn’t even though I was passionately obsessed in sometimes very unhelpful way with food and with weight. I didn’t it didn’t even occur to me that there was that that could ever turn into a career. It didn’t even occur to me that I could get over that I could actually have something positive mainly because I didn’t realise I had something positive to bring to the table took me A long time to overcome these issues and figure this stuff out.
David Ralph [30:04]
Because that’s what so many people struggle with too, isn’t it? They, they, they have a passion. They have an enthusiasm for something, maybe not even a passion, and they can’t quite grasp the fact that they can get paid for it.
Isabel Foxen Duke [30:17]
Yeah. Well, yeah, that was certainly me. I mean, if you told me that I would be doing I mean, I could not have dreamed up this job in my fantasy five years ago. You know, like six, I’ll say six or seven years ago, six or seven years ago, I could not have dreamed up in my wildest fantasy, that this would be my job. I mean, it’s like, literally like I you know, I you know, as a kid, I wanted to be a rock star. And doing what I do now is actually more exciting to me than being a rock star. Like somehow my life actually became even more wildly fantastical than my dreams of when I was a child of being a rock star. So you know, it’s it’s crazy. I couldn’t This I am also and this is a little whoo, whoo of me. But I feel like this job happened to me. You know, I feel like I didn’t really have a choice. I feel like I in some ways, when opportunities were presented to me and all I had to do was have the courage to take them.
David Ralph [31:18]
But that’s not where we were at all I buy into that totally. I’m doing this job now. And yes, I created it. But if you ask me how I created it, I look back and it almost kind of formed itself around me somehow I haven’t got a definitive answer, how I put bits together. And people say why Why did you call it Join Up Dots? Oh, I vaguely heard this speech by Steve Jobs. Did you know you’re going to know I didn’t really, but it’s now Val, and it’s living and breathing and it’s running away with me. So I don’t think that’s woowoo at all. I think what that is, is you found something that you love, and you took a chance on it and I’m gonna play some words that really saved that. Now. That was a perfect segue into this. This is Jim Carrey
Jim Carrey [32:00]
My father could have been a great comedian, but he didn’t believe that that was possible for him. And so he made a conservative choice. Instead, he got a safe job as an accountant. And when I was 12 years old, he was let go from that safe job. And our family had to do whatever we could to survive. I learned many great lessons from my father, not the least of which was that you can fail at what you don’t want. So you might as well take a chance on doing what you love.
Isabel Foxen Duke [32:27]
Wow, wow. Wow, Jim Carrey nailed it.
David Ralph [32:33]
It’s spot on, isn’t it? And for somebody like you, who was in the safe job, you was in corporate land, you was in a safe job that not only your family understood, but you understood as well. But you got to a point where you needed more, as Jim was saying,
Isabel Foxen Duke [32:50]
I remember So specifically, and this is not too dissimilar, but like a slightly different twist on this kind of theme. I remember really the moment that I decided The courage to quit my last job and finance and pursue whatever it was that I was going to pursue that I wasn’t really even sure what I was going to do and I left a job in finance I was getting paid incredibly well to go literally, you know, nanny and and study at the Institute for integrative nutrition, having no idea how that would work out. And ultimately, I remember the, the, what I how I rationalised it to myself was I said, I’m not sure what my life is going to look like, if I leave, right if I leave and go pursue nutrition and go pursue this like whole very different radical sort of creative, self employed style type of life. I have no idea what’s going to happen to me, but I know exactly what’s going to happen to me if I stay. I know exactly what my life’s going to look like in 510 and 15 years if I never leave, and I am not willing to live that life. I don’t want that. And that was ultimately I think what really kind of gave me the courage to quit my job, though was realising that, you know, there was a tonne of risk on, you know, involved in leaving there was a tonne of unknown there was a tonne of uncertainty and sort of taking a leap of faith and moving towards, you know, my passions in quotes. But the there was certainty in what my life would look like if I didn’t take the opportunity if I didn’t take the chance. And that certainty was very bleak.
David Ralph [34:27]
It’s terrifying, isn’t it? when that moment occurs, I kind of wish that I had that moment I didn’t, I just suddenly realised I couldn’t work with somebody. And it was about I just bought our but I’ve had enough of this. And when I left my corporate gig, I just felt like this is my chance. I’ve got to do something about I need to do. But when you realise that you’re going to age 30 years in that same job and you’re going to look back in your 60 year old lady and you’ve suddenly spent 35 years commuting to an office but you never liked in the first place. terrifies me, but for and I know so many people across the world that are doing that on a daily basis.
Isabel Foxen Duke [35:06]
Yeah, yeah, that was that was definitely the moment of realisation I had that moment of realisation where where I thought to myself, you know, if I stay on this path, what my life will look like as wasted, basically,
David Ralph [35:23]
what what did the anchors around you they did the people were rude to you because they unsure of their own path in life. And when we see it all the time, you’re sitting there and you go to the person next year, this is what I’m planning to do, and they go, you’re mad, you’ve got a good job here, you’re being paid all this and so you go back and you maybe speak to your mom and dad and they don’t understand it either. Why do you want to throw in a career you’ve got a career for life? How did you overcome that?
Isabel Foxen Duke [35:50]
Um, I you know, and I talked about this a lot in my work actually, this even relates to my work with body image and you know, sort of an anti diet, lifestyle and really working down to having the willingness to have a different opinion from other people. You know, like being willing to be different, I think is really important. Being willing to do something countercultural. It is countercultural to not work and for sort of, you know, Jet bait, you know, classically defined industry, it is countercultural to carve your own cap, you know, carve your own path, it is its counter call, it is radical to a certain extent, and what that what that really means at its core root is just different, just different, it’s, you’re going to be different than the rest of the world, right? And you have to be willing to be different. You have to be willing to not, to not be like everyone else, basically. And I think that that’s, that’s something that I’ve really embraced in many different areas of my life. I think it’s very, very scary. You know, as human, we’re pack animals, you know, we really, we want nothing more than to fit in and it takes a little bit takes a certain level of courage to to do things that are different and countercultural and involve risk. And, you know, basically I had to be comfortable with the fact that my family might not agree with me and have that and really be okay with that. My family didn’t agree with me. I mean, I remember I have an uncle who you know works in finance and he he definitely, I’m sure thought I was crazy. Now of course he’s proud of me. But at the time he thought I was nuts and my you know, my my parents I think we’re the same and I yeah, I just I remember feeling like before I even told them I anticipated us just having a different opinion and and kind of made peace with that.
David Ralph [37:51]
It’s amazing how quickly the nice i is and the crabs there’s that old analogy about crabs won’t let another crab climb out of the bucket, they’re gonna keep pulling you back in over time. And when you make that leap and you start to do stuff, the first of all, when you get that decision, first of all, and you say to people, this is what I’m going to do, and you get probably 90% of those comments that we were speaking about, why the hell are you doing this? Wait till Christmas? You got bonus at Christmas? Oh, you’re just having a moment. Why don’t you take a few days off? When you get through it? And there’s a kind of she’s come. She’s, she’s, she’s really doing it. Yeah, I just can’t understand it. But then once they start seeing it turned into a success. You’re suddenly surrounded by champions on you. And then I always knew Isabel was going to do great for her. Yeah, I remember when she was five, she was building a business in the back garden, and the whole vibe changes and you become like a, a success vacuum, you start attracting people that believe in you, which then fosters your belief. And it’s, it’s a fire that starts burning and it’s almost uncontrollable once it gets going.
Isabel Foxen Duke [39:00]
Well, you become a hero. You know, you become an example of somebody who I guess transcended what people think is just the way things are in quotes.
David Ralph [39:13]
Do to live that, that that that feeling of hero, because I’ll be honest and no one’s listening here, Isabel, I like it. I like
Isabel Foxen Duke [39:23]
um, well, I mean, you know, in, in my greatest attempt at humility, I don’t often think of myself as a hero. But I certainly I certainly understand and I do quite like that I have done something different. And I have succeeded against what other people thought were the odds. I don’t think I succeeded at actual odds. You know, I don’t think the odds were actually stacked against me. I actually think I made pretty smart entrepreneurial decision. Like I think every risk I took was actually a pretty intelligent risk. And you know, I, I’m my mother was risk management in Wall Street. So I really grew up understanding what risk is really about and understanding weighing risks and making smart risk, which was why I realised oh my gosh, the smart risk is to leave finance. That’s a really I have a 2% chance of happiness advice day. And, and, ultimately, I think, I think that there’s definitely something to be said for.
It feels it feels good to just be a model of a of a different cultural understanding around work.
David Ralph [40:45]
Did you ever go back to your old office where you used to work? Do you ever have some reunions and drinks with people? I’m
Isabel Foxen Duke [40:53]
not really I have a couple colleagues. I have a couple colleagues that I’ve stayed in touch with the ones who you Know the ones who I stay in touch with actually are people who have now come out of the woodwork because they themselves have left
David Ralph [41:06]
that see themselves and they see you as somebody that almost proves that it’s doable.
Isabel Foxen Duke [41:12]
Yeah, I’ve had a couple people I’ve had a few people both at in finance and also an integrative nutrition is integrative nutrition, I think, is a company that attracts a lot of entrepreneurs and that’s kind of the whole function of the school is for people to go into more self employed style of work. But certainly both in my job at finance and finance my jobs, multiple jobs in finance and at integrated nutrition, which was my only office job in the sort of nutrition and health world before I went out on my own. Every single person really that I’m still in touch with to this day or not even people that I stayed in touch with I kind of lost touch with most people when I left, but people have come back, you know, I’ve people have I’ve gotten Facebook messages and emails and people coming out of the Woodworks since I’ve become More quote successful and, you know, asking me for their opinion or for help or wanting to, you know, brainstorm and PowerShell because they themselves also either want to leave their jobs to start a company or start their own venture or already have made that decision and have taken the leap forward. So, you know, I, to be honest, I didn’t stay super close, especially with my peers in finance, I don’t have a tonne of close friends from my finance days. But some there’s a couple people from my finance days who have since left the corporate world to start their own companies, and they have certainly gotten back in touch with me, which is, you know, it’s not it’s not actually that surprising.
David Ralph [42:43]
When your business becomes successful, what has separated it because I think so many people when they are getting this entrepreneurial spirit, they feel that they’ve got to create the new Apple or they’ve got to create the new Facebook or some global monolith for the company, but you’ve created something that is very successful. And you’re doing very well for me, which is great to hear. But what was it that made yours successful against all the competition in the white arena?
Isabel Foxen Duke [43:16]
Oh, I think for starters, my, my ideas are pretty different and new and fresh. There’s not a lot of people saying what I’m saying. In fact, I can’t even really think of anyone else who’s really saying exactly what I’m saying. And the way I’m doing it. I mean, there are people sort of like peripherally saying similar related things. And there’s quite a number of them. But I think that my, my actual product is very differentiated. And it serves a very specific need. I’m very clear about the problem that I’m solving in the world, right? I didn’t create a company just to create a company so that I could be an entrepreneur. I was actually Pretty happy working in integrative nutrition. I mean, finance was miserable. integrative nutrition was actually pretty happy there. You know, I had a lot of autonomy, it was not wasn’t a bad gig, I created a company, because there was a desperate need in the market for something that I could provide. And no one else was providing that service. No one else was providing a solution to that very specific problem. And I think that’s why I’m successful because I’m solving a real problem in the world. I didn’t create a company just for myself.
David Ralph [44:28]
Is that a key thing that people have to think about? Who are they going to help? If they going into business instead of having this dream to sell poodle hair or whatever, just because I love it. Dude, I have to look at who is going to be helped by what I’m providing?
Isabel Foxen Duke [44:45]
I think so. I think so. Yeah. I mean, like that is what market economy is right is like supply and demand without demand. It doesn’t matter what you supply and demand is coming. Created by urgent need, right demand is created by and that goes even for like, quote unquote luxury products or, you know, products and services that are considered extraneous, you know, maybe what you’re selling is just a need for relaxation or a need for luxury and meet you know, maybe the person that you’re selling to ultimately, like if somebody buys a Louis Vuitton bag, let’s just say for example, no one needs a Louis Vuitton bag, but the person buying a Louis Vuitton bag might be buying that because what they really need is they need something that makes them feel like respect social status, they have a need for you know, a desire to be looked at, in a certain way, a desire to feel like they are powerful in a certain way, whether that be financially or some other way. Right. So there’s still an urgent need behind the purchase of a Louis Vuitton bag even though a Louis Vuitton bag is is you know, objectively an extraneous purchase.
David Ralph [45:56]
So easy. It’s just about how things make us feel
Isabel Foxen Duke [46:00]
Yeah, well feel it well, emotional needs are one kind of urgent need, right? So an emotional need for something that could be what’s driving the purchase for something seemingly extraneous like a luxury product is those are needs, those are emotional. Then there’s also physical needs like food, resources, you know, oil, things that like people are going to buy no matter what. There’s a lot of different kinds of needs, but I don’t I personally really ascribe to the philosophy you know, and I don’t really believe after having worked in sales and finance and you know, running my own business. I’m not sure people don’t buy anything unless they have either a physical or emotional need for whatever that product is going to give them.
David Ralph [46:47]
So So how did you get your name l Isabel, you you decided that you wanted to create this business. I’m speaking for the listener here because so many of them I know that I speak to struggle with getting their name out in vain, knowing how much to charge when the first clients come their way. Did you have those same issues in your head? Did you think oh, I really don’t know how to sort of phrase my pricing?
Isabel Foxen Duke [47:14]
Well, I hired people to tell me what to do. You know, like I, you know, I invested in business coaches who really gave me an idea as to what sort of market rate was for the sort of services that I was providing. You know, I started on the low end, tested the waters everyone kind of has a different style. You know, I have people in my life and you know, peers and coaches who say, you know, ask for the high price and then you know, see what happens, you know, ask for the price that sounds really scary to ask for and see what happens. That’s one strategy. My strategy has always been to ask for what is what I would ask for the price that basically I legitimately wouldn’t want to accept less like it legitimately would not be worth For me to accept less, so I don’t know which one is better I go back and forth on that in my head a lot. But in the beginning, you know, in the beginning, I, you know, definitely did started with like lower ball prices. And then as the demand for my product grew, the price went up, you know, like classic supply and demand like I, I definitely that’s sort of my, my way of thinking about pricing and also the, you know, you start to think about how much your time is worth.
Unknown Speaker [48:27]
Isabel Foxen Duke [48:30]
I will say, you know, just when I first got started, and I had no idea what market rate was, I also definitely had the benefit of advisors and people giving me I guess, a little bit more confidence. And yes, you’re not crazy. You know, these services really are worth this amount of money and people will pay this amount of services, you know, this amount of money for these services if you deliver and can provide, you know that value to them.
David Ralph [48:56]
Because I was speaking to a chap this morning and he said the way he does He thinks of his price even doubles it, and then doesn’t blink when he says it to them?
Isabel Foxen Duke [49:06]
Yeah, I mean, exactly. And then that’s exactly what I’m saying. I mean, I hear that from business coaches all the time. And it’s funny, I don’t know, I go back and forth on which strategy is better. You know, I mean, I, I always worry about asking for the high vol price, because I’m worried Well, if they say no, then would I like, you know what, I’d be wondering, would it drive me crazy? Would it make me anxious, wondering if maybe they would have said yes, if I would have asked for a lower price that I also would have been very happy with.
David Ralph [49:38]
But there’s always a moment, isn’t it when you get the mount and they go, yes. Straight away. Oh, my God, I could have gone higher. Well, why did I go? Well, yeah.
Isabel Foxen Duke [49:46]
That happened to me recently, actually. And that’s and I think that’s why pricing is crazy. I am not an expert in but yeah, there is that there. There is definitely that. I think it really depends on your personality. Right like because you’re no matter what there’s like an opportunity cost of some kind, right? Like if you go for the high ball price and they say no there’s a moment of like oh crap maybe if I had asked for less they would have said yes maybe I just missed out on a sale because I was you know, like who she like shooting higher than is actually my needs are what I would have been willing to take and then there is the you know, the flip side of that which is well what if I asked for what I’d be happy with but just there is of course the possibility that that person would have paid more and I have that opportunity cost there so there’s an opportunity costs on both sides and it really just I my personal opinion depends on like you as a person like which kind of anxiety Are you more comfortable with? Right? I happen and this is again controversial because I know that it’s very popular business coaches very popularly say like, always go for the highest price, you know, always ask for what’s scary. Ask for the scary high price. See what happens. For me, I, you know, I almost feel more comfortable taking a lower price that’s still worth my time. And that still feels legitimately worth my worth providing services for. It just it makes me feel slightly. I don’t know, less nervous. But again, I think I think that might be a personality thing. And or again, it will and or maybe I’m yeah, I think I’m and or maybe I’m just completely missing something. But yeah, but I, you know, I guess I’m a little bit conservative in that way. In other words,
David Ralph [51:38]
I don’t think you’re missing anything at all, based upon a show, but I’m gonna play the actual theme of the whole thing. And this is the speech of Steve Jobs made back in 2005. When he talks quite eloquently about only being able to see your path when you look back and you connect the dots. This is Steve Jobs.
Steve Jobs [51:56]
Of course, it was impossible to connect the dots looking forward when I was in college. But it was very, very clear looking backwards 10 years later. Again, you can’t connect the dots looking forward, you can only connect them looking backwards. So you have to trust that the dots will somehow connect in your future. You have to trust in something, your gut, destiny, life, karma, whatever. Because believing that the dots will connect down the road will give you the confidence to follow your heart, even when it leads you off the well worn path. And that will make all the difference.
Unknown Speaker [52:31]
What do you mean by those words?
Isabel Foxen Duke [52:33]
I love that speech. I have heard that speech before. And it’s um, I find it to be incredibly true. Certainly in line with my experience, kind of like what we were talking about earlier in the show, about this idea that like I couldn’t have even dreamed where my life ended up. If you asked me to, you know, as like a 17 year old or even a 22 year old or 23 year old, there’s no way I could have even Imagine what my life would end up becoming. And in retrospect, I see how this whole path lined up for me. And it’s, I couldn’t have built it, I couldn’t have designed it any better than I then it actually happened, then what actually happened? What I will say about that speech that I think is really sort of this spiritual challenge for myself and for most people is being willing to trust the unknown, right, like being willing to trust the inherent uncertainty and not knowing what dots you’re creating as you walk forward. And I think that that’s really sort of the the practice is being able to sort of work through fear and being able to take risks in the face of uncertainty as to where those dots are, are leading you to
David Ralph [53:51]
do do you find the risks and the uncertainty easier to deal with now because you’ve got a certain track record?
Isabel Foxen Duke [53:58]
Yes. 100% I absolutely think that’s true. I mean, I’ve been practising facing my fears of uncertainty for a very long time, and I’m still standing. And so as you know, I always say like, the only way, the way that we build courage, or the way that we built deal with fear is by facing it, staring it in the face, and kind of seeing what happens, right, like actually taking the action that we think is scary and seeing if we survive it. The more we do that, the more we face something we think is scary and practice surviving it the less scary it becomes.
David Ralph [54:33]
He’s never scared when you look over your shoulder it is it
Isabel Foxen Duke [54:36]
and know exactly, it’s not scary when you look back. It’s always scary looking forward. Right. And so, you know, I, you know, the more I’ve practised feeling, you know, they always, I think, I forget who said this, but some I’m quoting someone famous and long dead. But somebody recently This is some famous quote from somebody who now I’m completely butchering his Know courage isn’t about not being afraid. It’s about feeling the fear and doing it anyway. think maybe that was john wayne, I could be wrong with john wayne. So feeling the fear and doing it anyway, the more I practice feeling the fear and doing it anyway, the less fear has power over me. Right, I kind of developed that muscle of resistance to fear as I feel the fear and do the action anyway.
David Ralph [55:27]
So for our listeners out there, should they start with something small, something that is not quite a fear, but breaking a routine. And Ben actually moving forward and moving forward and moving forward?
Isabel Foxen Duke [55:42]
Ah, possible. I mean, yeah. When you said not quite a fear. I wasn’t sure. Not. You know, I think there is something I think breaking routine is a little scary for everyone. So I think no matter what, there’s gonna be a little fear there. Whenever we’re change, change involves Your transitions involve fear no matter what. So yeah, I would say that the that that’s a great way to start. And I think that, that building, that’s what building courage to actually take risks and make changes in life really is all about.
David Ralph [56:18]
Absolutely. And I can tell you it was Susan Jeffers that said that phrase, it wasn’t john wayne, I looked it up as you were talking. Okay.
Isabel Foxen Duke [56:27]
I didn’t know that. Like in some version of that quote, it was about a horse like a man doesn’t get on a horse unless he’s he’s not as scared. I don’t know something about fear. And clearly, she
David Ralph [56:39]
sees a who knows. But yeah, it was Susan Jeffers, build a fear and do it anyway, which is, which is a great phrase, isn’t it? Really?
Isabel Foxen Duke [56:47]
Mm hmm. Yeah. It’s a great phrase. I use that a lot personally and professionally.
David Ralph [56:53]
So So do you think over listeners out there just before we send you back in time to have a one on one with yourself? Do you think that all the listeners out there No matter what situation they’re in, what relationship they’re in, they can have a kick ass life if I truly want it.
Isabel Foxen Duke [57:07]
Absolutely. Having a kick ass life, in my opinion, all just starts with your brain. It’s it’s an internal job, it’s an inner job, right? You know, if you’re willing to deal with those concepts like fear, courage, you know, all of these sort of themes that we’re talking about the we’ve been talking about in the show are all in our head, right? So we do the internal work, the outer, the external work takes care of itself. The external work just happens as a result, right? things start happening to you. As you sort of changed the way you think.
David Ralph [57:42]
Yeah, I agree with that. I’m looking at a quote here that kind of emphasises it, you can become anyone you want to be, it doesn’t matter what happened to you or what you’ve done. What matters is what you do next. And it is mindset, isn’t it?
Unknown Speaker [57:55]
David Ralph [57:57]
totally. Well, let’s send you back into Because this is the end of the show, and this is the bit that we call the Sermon on the mic where we’re going to send you back to have a one on one with your younger self. And if you could go back, what age is about what you choose? And what advice would you give what we’re going to find out because I’m going to play the theme and when it fades you up. This is the Sermon on the mic.
Unknown Speaker [58:23]
We go with the best
Unknown Speaker [58:25]
bit of the show.
Isabel Foxen Duke [58:40]
I think that I’m going to go back to second grade. So I think, you know, I don’t even know how old I must have been that I must have been probably, I don’t know, eight or nine years old. And it was just like right around that time where you’re starting to become really conscious of things like social relationships and You’re trying to be really conscious of things like how people see you how people view you how people think of you shouldn’t really be conscious of things like your own personal achievement. Like you’re just, you know, I learned that I could read the whole book today or, you know, I, you know, you’re starting to be graded in school that is that kind of age. And I wish, you know, like, I mean, if I could go back in time and talk to myself, you know, I’d probably just tell her to be unapologetic. You know, like, throw herself into what she does, and not actually worry so much about the results of your actions so much as experiencing what you’re doing and throwing yourself into what you do wholeheartedly. You know, and then we get we’ve talked so much about fear and courage on the show and I and I think that that’s probably Fear is What kept you little Isabel, who I’m talking to right now, from moving forward with a lot of the things that you, you know, I’ve now accomplished. But, you know, I perhaps would have gotten there a lot faster, the dots would have lined up a lot differently had I not been living with, you know, an enormous amount of self doubt, as a kid as a man and as a young adult, which I think so many people experienced. I don’t think there’s a person on this planet who’s not living with some degree of self doubt, or to whom self doubt does not creep up every once in a while. And I wish that little Isabel could acknowledge when she felt that insecurity, which is I guess, synonymous with that self doubt that insecurity or that fear of the unknown, that fear of uncertainty that we’ve all said talked about in the show, and really know when in a grounded moment in any given moment and any given sort of instance in a day that she is and was and always has been, and always will be fundamentally safe in her choices and safe and being herself. And I think if she, you know, perhaps if I could just use this time to remind her of how safe she is and how okay it is to be herself and to be different, and to take a different path and to be unapologetic and her actions going forward. Maybe she would be a little bit less afraid, and a little bit more willing to change the world and really make her thumbprint on the world
David Ralph [1:01:54]
is about how can our audience connect with you.
Isabel Foxen Duke [1:01:59]
So the best way Connect with me through my website. I, especially for any of you who are interested in the work I’m doing with women and food and weight and body stuff. My website and where I have a blog and lots of other fun goodies and guides and all sorts of stuff is just my name, Isabel Fox and Duke calm. And there’s all sorts of resources and an interesting things to learn there. If anything I’ve said is sparked an interest in you
David Ralph [1:02:26]
will have all the links on the show notes. Isabel, thank you so much for spending time with us today. joining up those dots and please come back again when you have more dots to join up. Because I do believe that by joining up the dots and connecting our past is the best way to build our futures. Isabel Fox and Duke Thank you so much.
Isabel Foxen Duke [1:02:44]
Thanks, David. This is great.
David doesn’t want you to become a faded version of the brilliant self you are wants to become so he’s put together an amazing guide for you called the eight pieces of advice that every successful entrepreneur practices including the two that changed his life. Head over to Join Up dots.com to download this amazing guide for free and we’ll see you tomorrow on Join Up Dots.