Welcome to the Join Up Dots Podcast with David Ralph
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Introducing David Ralph
Hi there, you maybe wondering why today I have dropped my English accent and sound more like Elvis Presley on steroids, but I’m Dwain Scott the host of the Shifting Work podcast and todays episode is a little different.
In fact there is a fair chance that this will never occur again, but todays guest a year ago was sitting nervously waiting to start a new adventure.
He was ready to press launch and bring to you the show that is Join Up Dots with David Ralph.
He had never hosted his own show, didn’t know one end of a microphone to another, and as for interviewing the mover and shakers of the world was a complete novice.
But the one thing that he did know was that he had a dream to build a platform that would inspire the world to leave their cubicles, forget about the daily commute, and go for their dreams.
And now over 365 episodes later, we thought it was time to share with you the journey that he has been on.
To show you how you can quite simply do anything you want, if you are willing to take risks, flex your hustle muscle and step into the unknown.
And with a history working in London and finance, and being a trainer and a coach within offices in the UK, becoming the host of an online show was certainly a step into the unknown.
So what was it about creating a show that so appealed to him over a year ago?
And has it been plain sailing, or tougher than he could have possibly known?
Well lets find out as we bring onto the show to start joining up dots with the one and only David Ralph.
During the show we discussed such weighty topics with David Ralph such as:
How you can often find that in a corporate environment you can struggle for respect from others who don’t understand the experience you have gained, and how you can do things so easily.
How the Solopreneur Hour podcast with Michael O’Neal allowed David to build powerful connections really quickly, and easily, which cannot be underestimated.
How he can now see that the guests he had on his earlier shows were not poor guests, they were simply unfortunately being directed by a poor and inexperienced host.
How he can now see that the true dark dots of his first years work, have now become the knowledge base that he shares with the world on Podcasters Mastery.Com
How the world does not quite see that they have no one they need to ask permission from other themselves. It’s down to all of us to go and get the life that we deserve.
You can also check our extensive podcast archive by clicking here – enjoy
Full Transcription Of David Ralph Interview
David Ralph [0:00]
Today’s show is brought to you by podcast is mastery.com. The premier online community teaching you to podcast like a pro. Check us out now at podcasters mastery.com.
When we’re young, we have an amazing positive outlook about how great life is going to be. But somewhere along the line we forget to dream and end up settling. Join Up Dots features amazing people who refuse to give up and chose to go after their dreams. This is your blueprint for greatness. So here’s your host live from the back of his garden in the UK, David Ralph.
Dwain Scott [0:38]
Hi there everybody. You may be wondering why to day I have dropped my English accent and sound more like Elvis Presley on steroids. But this is the Wayne Scott. I’m the host of shifting work podcast. And today’s episode is going to be just a little bit different. In fact, there is a chance that this will never occur again. But today’s guest ago today was setting nervously waiting to start a new adventure. He was ready to push launch and bring to you the show that is Join Up Dots with David Ralph. He had never hosted his own show, didn’t know one end of the microphone to the other. And as for interviewing the movers and shakers of the world, he was a complete novice. But the one thing that he didn’t know was that he had a dream to build a platform that would inspire the world to leave their cubicle, forget about their daily commute, and go for their dreams. And now over 365 episodes later, we thought it was time to share with you the journey that he has been on are to show how you can quite simply do anything you want. And if you are willing to take the risk, flex your hustle muscle and step into the unknown and with history working in London, and Finance and being a trainer and coach within offices across the UK, becoming the host of an online show was certainly a step into the unknown. So what was it about creating a show that was so appealing to him over a year ago? And has it been playing selling are tougher than he thought it could ever be possible? Well, now’s the time everybody to find out. Let’s bring to the show the one and only Mr. Join Up Dots himself. David, Ralph. David, welcome to your own show.
David Ralph [2:31]
Well, I’ll tell you what, this is a little bit surreal and listening to that introduction. I realise I sound like a girl I need to I need to be on steroids myself. You you’ve got that manly voice that just puts me to shame he really does.
Dwain Scott [2:46]
Well, yes. See I have the manly voice but you have the elegance in your voice that I think that that’s why ever you have so many listeners everybody loves the David Ralph voice. And you know for me it’s just I’m it is I am Elvis on Sunday. road
David Ralph [3:00]
it’s a great thing to have Verizon boys you know you when when you start a show and as we’re going to talk about the journey that I’ve been on you don’t quite realise but the the voice is the key thing it’s it’s how you internet is how you raise it up and get passionate and you bring it down and you get conspiracy ational conspiracy station or don’t know if I’ve just made up a word but it sounds good
Dwain Scott [3:23]
I’m actually running out Can you spell it for me conspiratorial I’m going to add that to my dictionary and I will use that more than once this week. But I think you’re dead on with the factor that your voice and and how you enunciate things and how you pronounce things and just how you how you, you bring in that, that extra hype and then you take it down a little bit lower. And that’s what you do so well. So for the listeners out there, let’s kind of go back to the starting journey. Before Join Up Dots before everything. Let’s take it back as far as we can. And you know in previous episodes, you’ve talked about it interviewing people when you were a kid. And that’s kind of where you found these tapes in your mom’s attic. And let’s kind of go back that far in the dot section, and kind of bring it forward to where you are today.
David Ralph [4:12]
Yeah, he’s that, well, if anyone’s listened to that, it was as much a surprise to me as anyone else. But I did. I used to have this fascination about interviewing people and creating these little radio shows. And I used to go around interviewing the banker and the the bookmaker and the candlestick maker and whoever would actually sort of open their doors. And these were proper people. You know, these were adults doing a day’s work. So I look back on it, I think, why did I allow some kids to knock on their door and say, could I take up your time I’m making these little interview programmes, but it’s all demonstrates the sort of early hustle, I suppose. And I think looking back on it, I think the hustle was always there was always somebody that was willing to knock on the door, or did you want your car washed Mr. mow your lawn or walk your dog and all that kind of stuff. Now, I mean, this land, it’s exactly the same thing. But it’s kind of like virtual doors you’re knocking on and it’s virtual doors that you’re trying to sort of break down to sort of bring people on the show. So it does, it does tie all the way back to that. And I do find it fascinating on my own show, as it is normally, where we talk to the guests and their whole life links back but it’s the middle Bitcoin, isn’t it? It’s the middle because we keep talking about that you kind of forget yourself somehow.
Dwain Scott [5:25]
Yeah. And it’s, it’s amazing that you had kind of forgotten about that. And you gone back and you found those and you realise that, you know, you talked about on the show many times I’ve talked about on my show many times, how when you look back at your childhood, you’ll find which were really meant to do. And I think that has kind of worked for you in that way. And you’ve done so much in between. And I know everybody’s probably heard because most everybody listening to today’s episode is is a subscriber a listener to every episode, but kind of share your journey. Any getting into this because I’m, I’m at all every time I hear how you got into deciding what you were going to do, being in a podcast now but at the time not knowing what you were going to do, why you left where you were you doing the training, and in the corporate world kind of take everybody back on that, that journey with you?
David Ralph [6:22]
Yeah, I simply got to a point where I, I played the same cards time and time again, I was in my comfort zone. I was a corporate trainer. And literally people could say to me, could you do this training course and I’d go, yes, I could do that. And by nicking a bit of this course and a bit of that course and frying a bit of experience in I could just sort of bang these things out. And by was very successful and people enjoyed them. But looking back on it, I think one of the things that sort of held me back and started me moving to where I wanted to prove myself was when you get to a point of being able to do stuff very quickly, but still make it very good. People think it’s very easy to do that. And I don’t look at the experience it’s taken to get to that point to be able to do that and throw things together quite quickly, and still create a performance. And I remember thinking to myself, I should get more respect for this. But they shouldn’t just be throwing this at me and then thinking I can do anything, I should get some kind of credit. And I didn’t, it was almost I’ll give it to David. He can do but I’ll just yeah, that’s fine. I get that done in a couple of days. Oh, we don’t even have to try. And I was a trainer. And I got to a point where I almost felt like I was a spokesman, if somebody had something that they wanted to say, but they didn’t have the time I’ll throw it to him and and do it. And I used to do that. And I think that’s one of the ways that you you develop your voice when you are communicating information, but you don’t actually believe yourself. You You have to put that extra oomph into it. You actually have to get the people at the other end. To buy into that message, even if you don’t. And when I started Join Up Dots, I was very aware of that, if I could do that when I didn’t feel it, when I did Bill and I feel hugely passionate about it, it’s going to be a powerful statement to me. And it sort of led me on to podcasting. But I knew I had something that I needed to share. And I didn’t want other people’s words given to me, it was all going to be my own words and I would live and die by what I needed to say on a daily basis. And that’s how the show kind of come about. And I’ve never shared that before Dwayne, but it really is the case that when you feel like you’ve become a puppet, you might as well stop putting on your own strings and make things move.
Dwain Scott [8:42]
I think you’re dead on with that i i think that it’s nice to see you being able to open up and I kind of like being on this side of the mic with you so that the listeners can really get to know you. You know and more about David as a day to day guy that’s that’s really got a family and Went through stuff in the past. But let’s step back to where we came together. It was during this same part of your journey. And we actually met through Michael O’Neill show the solopreneur hour. And we were in a comment or on his episodes, and you would beat me every single episode. And I feel like since that day, that I’ve been following your journey more and definitely, and we have a personal relationship that nobody else has actually been able to see. So kind of talk about, not only we all know that, from listening to past episodes, you sent in a voice comment mail to Michael O’Neill and and it aired on his show and that kind of opened your eyes that Yeah, I can do this. But kind of talk about the early stages when you were getting going the struggles that people didn’t know about.
David Ralph [9:59]
Yeah, he It’s amazing that we have got such a close friendship now. And I’ve never actually personally met you to shake your hand. It’s always been virtual. But we did Connect over this podcast. And it was it was a show and it’s a good show. And it’s still a great show. And I it’s one of those ones, I go back to it. But there’s no reason for me to go so passionately involved in a podcast like I did, but it felt like a kind of a rebirth somehow. And the fact that you started commenting, and I wanted to always get there earlier than you. And then there was that battle, as you say. And when Michael O’Neill started chipping in a kind of made you feel that connections can be made very, very quickly. And that’s what podcasting is all about. And that’s what I’ve realised, having a voice and having it put into people’s ears. They be they trust you after a while if you do it the right way and you provide the right information. They trust you and you can build very quick powerful connections and When I decided to do Join Up Dots, one of the things that I remember thinking was that the moniker of Join Up Dots is a course based around the Steve Jobs speech, but I wanted it as almost like joining up the well joining up the dots. So we’re all dots where you’re a dog, I’m a dog, and we’re all part of other people’s lives. And by connecting enough of them, we can build a network that can really shake the core of, I don’t know, the welds, fabric, whatever. And that was my sort of big dream at the beginning. And of course, it takes a while to to get there, but I’ve seen that time and time again, but it doesn’t take a lot of connections and you start moving in the right direction and that that first connection with yourself all the way back, there was no reason for it to take me to creating a show you creating a show, getting to this point now having 400 shows in the Can you know coming out to our first year and all that kind of stuff. But it’s um it’s amazing to look back and it actually quite makes me emotional when I think back on the year that I’ve been On linking all the way back to you and me just banging away on the those those comment forms just basically just to annoy you really drain so I could get there first. It’s amazing how little things change your life it really does change your life
Dwain Scott [12:15]
well and I agree and it’s it’s amazing you brought up the fact that we’ve never met face to face and and how many guests you’ve had on the show to this point plus what you’ve gotten the can you’re talking over 400 people that how many of those have you actually been able to meet face to face the people I interview? I haven’t had the opportunity but one person to meet face to face and that’s it. And it’s amazing how technology has been able to give us this global ability to meet people make new friends and and I honestly could say that I consider David Ralph, a very good friend who I trust dearly and and can’t thank you enough for having the faith in me to host this episode because I know how special it is to you. This is one year this goes out on Your birthday. And you know, it’s like, amazing to me that just some comments brought us together. But it like you said it’s the way podcasting is. It’s the way the world is today, you know, with the global universe, being able to reach out and connect via Skype, no matter where you are in the world, you can sit down and have a conversation with someone and learn about them, and then put it out for other people to listen to. And a year ago, actually, I’d say probably about a year and three months ago, when you really decided to do this, you know, it’s things have changed the way you do things have changed. If you go back and you listen to David Ralph on episode one, versus Episode 359. It’s a totally different sounding person, and the confidence level is there. So kind of take us into that journey, where when you first started and you decided I’m recording a show, I’m going to record my first episode, I’m going to introduce David Ralph to the world my second episode. is going to be with interviewing someone. How did that work in your head and and what were the stresses and struggles that came with that?
David Ralph [14:09]
Yeah, I’m when I decided to do the show at the very beginning. I really didn’t have a clue. But you have to start somewhere. So you think to yourself, okay, well, what what did I want the show to be about? And if I listened back to my early shows, now, there’s certain things that make me slightly cringe. I didn’t really know that there has to be an integrity to your work. So I think I was a lot more flippant and slightly tongue in cheek in certain areas. That didn’t quite work. It was me trying to force humour into the mix. And I remember listening to Episode Four August chilliwack. It was a lovely, lovely offer. And he made a book called I’m working with a Buddhist monks or whatever. So I had these monks chanting at the beginning and I’d be going Can you cut it down? It can can you bring it down, bring it down, please. I’m about to record a show. I’m going to record the show. And I listened back to those kind of things. And I think it just wasn’t right. It was just me playing around trying to find my my, my area, Episode 37. And we’re talking a big block of work there. And Ben, I realised that the humour that people like in the show was me actually reacting to the guests. And it wasn’t me coming up with a joke three weeks prior and thinking I’m going to throw that into the mix. It was something that was spontaneous, and the spontaneity of the show and the depth lead on from that point, and I went through certain moments. 37 was a big one. Episode 80 was a big one. I remember Episode 100 with Michael O’Neill. That was a big one having the guy on it. They inspired me in the first place to do a show. I was terrified, really terrified at the beginning of that and I tried to pull out all the stops to make the show And I would say actually, for anyone listening out there who wants to do a podcast, I really think you’ve got to go about 150 shows, to really find the thing that you want really come out blazing. And that’s when it all starts to come together and you learn from your mistakes. You learn from how to use the microphone, you learn how to make the guests seem better, as well. Well, I used to have some guests and I don’t like to say names but I used to think afterwards. They weren’t very good. Now I look back on it and it was because I wasn’t very good. I didn’t allow them to grow in the show and to flourish. They needed me to take control and I just wasn’t there if I if that kind of makes sense to you.
Dwain Scott [16:41]
Absolutely as a as a podcast or I can understand that. You know you do get guest on that that you have some issues with you could say and and I’ve been there and I understand now greater after the fact just like you’re saying that whenever you’re recording with somebody, it’s you’re responsible ability as the host to take the lead and and help keep them in a flow and in a direction. And I’ve had many episodes where I made the mistake of not keeping the flow and keeping them in a direction and it’s not nearly as exciting of a show and you don’t get as much out of them. They’re real monotone. They don’t really respond, but with a couple of quick Yes, nose and simple stuff like that to your questions. And it it does it forces you to improve your interview skills and that’s one thing that you’re really known for in the podcasting realm is two things. There are the classic David Ralph introductions. And the classic David Ralph interview skills that I hear numerous numerous fellow podcasters talking about. So let’s let’s look at the the one that always pops up and everybody that you’ve ever interviewed is always amazed at the introduction How do you come up with those?
David Ralph [18:02]
I think it ties back to my training. I’m always aware if you run a training course, that people remember the beginning, by remember the end, but the bit in the middle, they drift off and I look out the window and I scratched themselves. And so I was very structured in the way that I built my show and which way it always leads to the Sermon on the mic the end bit. Now, some people might switch off at that part, but you know what, where you’re going to go, that’s the end. And after that, it’s goodbye. And away we go. Now, the intro was something that I felt so many podcasters fell on. And certainly I’ve been on some shows where people will pretty much say to me, can you write the introduction and I think, okay, and I want a few words and I throw it over to them. But I think that is your opportunity to allow you to take control of the show like no others because the guests will have been on multiple shows beforehand and they would have told the same old stories. So I just basically thought, after about Episode Five, I think it was, oh my god, I keep on hearing the same stories that I’ve heard previously, what I need to do is get rid of these stories by actually bringing them into the introduction. So they’ve got nothing to hide behind. So that’s what I did. And if the early shows, it used to take me God, it used to take me a good two hours per show to write the introduction. And I used to sort of Delve around page eight and 10 of Google and really go into it deep in their LinkedIn profiles. Now, there’s a sort of similarity with the introductions, if you listen to most of the shows, you will pretty much get the flavour. It always starts with a bit of the sort of motivation or what they’re up to. And it leads up to two very quick questions. And then, well, let’s find out more as we bring onto the show, blah, blah, blah, and we go into it. But now the guests are getting used to that they realised that they can’t hide behind their keynote stories. They know that we’re going to go Well, and I think the shows have become better because of that. They’re aware of the work now. And they’re aware that they can’t just go right in my book page 82, as I’ve said on 100 other shows I want to talk about, but but they’ve got nowhere to hide. And that’s why a lot of times we have guests burst into tears, which really shocked me when it first started happening. But now, it’s a kind of badge of honour that I take people to such a point, but they’re so raw and open, that they they literally have to just let themselves go and become emotional. I find it amazing really, how many podcasters still do the same old routine that that most other people do, because you’ve got an opportunity in the first three minutes to really create something powerful if you spend a bit of time on it.
Dwain Scott [20:45]
And I couldn’t agree more with your intros. One of the things you do is you take that advantage away from your guests. And when I say that, what I’m saying is, you basically lay out everything they’ve done or they’re doing right there on the table. So that takes away that ammo that they were prepared to talk about these things, but you’ve just shared them. Now we’re going to talk about them a little bit in the episode. But now let’s get down to the dirt. Let’s get down to the nitty gritty of what you’re doing, why you’re doing and how you’re doing or what kind of things in life have affected and changed you. And you take that ability away from them early on, and not in a bad way in a good way because it forces them to have to open up and actually think instead of doing those interviews, where it’s like a set question and you respond, and then there’s a set question and you respond, and you know, you’re you’re doing this seven days a week, and interviewing, you know, numerous numerous people and I as somebody that has a two time a week, bi weekly episode. I don’t know how you do it. It is amazing to me that you’re able to do and batch the number of interviews you get, and get them edited and and get everything done and still pull off these awesome internet. And these awesome interviews, I would be completely exhausted. And I know personally that there’s been times where you’ve hit that. And it’s kind of hidden from your listeners. And I wish you would kind of share with them that everything’s not hunky dory and roses all the time and kind of share some of those, those black dots per se that have kind of stepped in, as you proceeded with the show.
David Ralph [22:23]
Yeah, and it certainly hasn’t been rosy and hunky dory and whatever, because I have had times but I’ve literally been close to tears myself that the work to actually get it going out like I’ve been doing is been too much for one man. And I got to a point where I think the show was just starting to get successful and I didn’t want to lose the momentum that I built up on. So I just worked through illness, I work through tiredness, I work through everything and you can’t hear them on the shows and I can pinpoint certain shows Laughing to myself, my God, I was close to breaking point. And in fact, cause a fact that guests had come back at me with anything critical, I think I would have just broken down because I was really at that moment. Just Just not myself. And I’ve got a chap that I hang around with a lot. And I go out for drinks with him called Danny Montgomery. And he was very aware that I was as close to breaking point as he’s ever seen me. And he was very good at just giving me that sort of that push, go on, you know, it’s been so good. And just keep going, keep going. And I sort of got through it. But I look back on it now. And a lot of those dark times was just by me trying to do too much he was trying to set the ball going to such a height that no one could really do it without a team behind them. But the beauty of it as we talk in my show time and time again is through those dark dots. Move I was times you find light. And I found so much skill and knowledge that I’m taking on to future work. But we’re doing that we advertise at the beginning of the show called podcasters mastery, where I can show everyone out there, how to do a show how to produce it and edit it and get it up up live and all that kind of stuff. And right up not because I had to because literally the show was going down. And I got to a point where I had two shows. And it’s a daily show and I had two shows. And then that was it. And there was no other show to go live. And that was nearly 200 shows ago now. And now we’re back up and running and everything’s good in the garden. So it has been terrible at times. It’s been beyond terrible. And I’ve been very lucky that I’ve got you Dwayne on one side and I’ve got Danny on the other side that I can go oh my god, guys, oh my god, what can I do and Dwayne more often not you just say well suck it up and you’re not the most comforting in the world. But you kicked me into shape it?
Dwain Scott [25:03]
Well, you know, I’m not I am a hugger, I will admit that but when I can only virtually talk to somebody I like to get to the point and that’s one thing that I’ve seen you go through those struggles and we’ve talked about them and and you’ve helped me was stuff I’ve helped you with stuff and I think that’s, that’s the big bonus of what we have. And I think everybody needs that in life you have to have some kind of support, whether it be across the pond or whether it be your next door neighbour that you’re going out and having a Shandy with. You know, that’s that’s the important part is having the don’t
David Ralph [25:35]
don’t miss anybody doing
Dwain Scott [25:36]
I’m knocking your shandi I I am going to have a Shandy. When you get here at the cross, you are going to share one. But, you know you’re talking about what we’ve got going on with the podcasters mastery and all that and I think it’s an excellent learning experience that you’ve had over 365 shows. That’s one year’s worth the show. shows for you. For some people, that’s five, maybe 10 years worth of shows, and you have crammed all that in to one year of your life. And I know there’s people out there that gotta be wondering, you’re married, you have kids, how how do you handle all that, along with doing the show
David Ralph [26:21]
is not easy. It really isn’t easy. But when you actually share your dreams and your passions with your family, more often than not, they will buy into it and they will support you. And I’ve been very lucky that my family have done that. And by you know, when dad’s recording, and I tried to do all my shows on a Thursday and and some on Friday morning. And that has made it easier when I first started. I didn’t really know about batching and keeping it all together. So I literally just went to anyone. Would you be on the show? And they’d say, Yes, I can do 10 o’clock on a Monday morning yet that’s fine by me and I would just do it and I realised But you’ve got to take control on that. So now I literally say, and I don’t care who it is, it can be Barack Obama. I will say to him now unless you can’t do it on a first day, it’s not going to happen. And funnily enough, more often than not, I would say, 99.9% of the time, but you go, Oh, okay. It’d be three weeks time, but I can still do on the first day. So that’s been better. So that’s freed me up for a lot of time. Yes, the introductions used to take me a long time. So that was a killer. So now I do most of those very early on a Sunday morning when all the family are in bed. So that’s good. And I just kind of moved through to realising what’s important to me. And what is important to me now isn’t the show. It’s my family. But there was a time when it was totally the show. And that’s all I could think about. And that’s all I can do. And since then, funnily enough, I think the show’s become better. Because I’m not so involved with it. I’m not so married to it. I come with an enjoyment of doing it. More than actually got, oh my god, I got seven shows to do. I’ve got the introductions to do. I’ve got to do this. I’ve got a booking the guests next week, we’re going to do all that kind of stuff. And I think there was a tightness to some of the ones around about, I don’t know, hundred and 20 onwards, I can actually hear it, where I’m not enjoying it. There’s not a lot of laughter coming from me. It was just a conveyor belt. So long answer, but yes, it has been a struggle, I do have to balance it with a family. But after a while you realise what’s most important, and then you work accordingly and you work backwards. But I do think it’s a process. I think that everyone has to go through that To start with, I don’t think anyone can quit their job and go, Okay, I’m just going to do two days a week now because I want to spend all my time with my family. I think you’ve got to do the seven days a week and then get it to six days a week and then five days and Ben sort of chip down, Chip down, Chip down and then get to a point where the balance is white somehow.
Dwain Scott [28:57]
I think you’re dead on and one of the things that What I love about it is, there’s a lot of guys that are very successful in podcasting. And you hear about them all the time. They’re the top cream of the crop, whatever you want to call them. But most of those guys are single, or they’re married, have no kids. They don’t have all that extra life outside of podcasting and business that you and myself have. And they don’t see the struggles and when they’re telling people Oh, you can go to this you can go to that you can go to this. Nobody is they don’t have to go change a diaper are in my case, you know, get kids to bed at a certain time so you can work and they don’t understand those struggles. Were your struggle. I believe it was just just not too long ago, your struggle became how many of the Indiana Jones films Can I watch with my daughter back to back and spend that time with her versus business business business, because you do have that family that you have to be there for? And I absolutely love it and I’ve seen the change and I’ve probably given you a little grief every once in a while saying take some time off go spend some time with the wife or the kids. And I think it’s so important and I think that’s forgotten by many of these people that are preaching. Do this do this do this, but they don’t have that. Wife and 345 What do you got? 10 kids now David
David Ralph [30:17]
Oh got more than that and free rides.
Dwain Scott [30:19]
Oh, I forgot about the third wife. I won’t tell the first one about the other two though.
David Ralph [30:24]
But it is true when you hear that work life balance. It’s thrown at you and there are a lot of podcast is out there that are doing amazingly well but they’ve got teams behind them. Now I’ve never had anyone I’ve recently actually had a VA that I hired and it didn’t quite pan out. I was spending more time trying to get him going to the speed that I was working at beforehand. I’ve been went back to dispatching it wisely in doing it and I think that’s kind of worked for me because I can keep control. But one of the things I would say to the listeners out there but if you listen to like Join Up Dots or shifting work podcast, All these kind of things when we talk about going after your goals and really going for the dream, I really would spend a good week two weeks whatever working out your why what is your why why do you actually want to do that? Why do you want to quit your job? Is it just money is it whatever because more often than not, it’s not money and I realised that my Why is control. I want something that I can do when I do it. So I want to be able to do it on a Thursday and I don’t want to be doing on a Monday or Tuesday on Wednesday. I want to do it on a Thursday because my whole life has been built upon people telling me you’re going to be at your desk at eight o’clock you got to be metal seven o’clock at night, you’ve got to be you’ve got to be you’ve got to be so my whole thing is control. And I think you do I think you’re very similar because I know we’re on this journey together. That you want to get to a point where you work when the kids are in bed and you work on you know before they get up And all that kind of stuff. So you get that balance, right. But you keep control of it. And I think that’s a key thing to the listeners don’t know because I don’t want them to set it this show to sound like I’m just having a mon fast. But it’s been hard. It’s been hard. It’s been hard because it hasn’t. It’s been amazingly brilliant all the way through. But I do think that when you start off with it if you don’t set out your story about why you’re doing it in the first place, when you do get to those really hard points which you will get to it’s going to be doubly difficult.
Dwain Scott [32:32]
I couldn’t agree more. Because your why is the most important thing. I don’t care if it’s if you want to stay doing your day job. You need to know why. No matter what you’re doing in your existence, the importance of understanding your wise is the key to pretty much everything we do on a daily basis as humans. You know, for me, my Y is almost the same as I want control. But I want the control that will Give me the ability to spend that time with my family who I consider my why my wife and kids, why do I want control because I want to spend more time with my family. If I can work on a Wednesday, Thursday and Friday, and have the rest of the week, or be able to travel when I want with my kids, then I’m fulfilling my why. And that is why it is so important. And I hope I’m not making this a poor David Ralph fest here because I am the one leading the interview. But I want to I want to talk about some of the great moments, some of the people that that have inspired you, David, as you go forward, you know, connecting your dots from the past and moving forward. You’ve had some great guest on here, but you are inspired by one speech. That’s where Join Up Dots came from. And if you can play the Steve Jobs speech for me and listen to it, and then give your response like your guests have Givens for 360 some odd episodes.
David Ralph [33:59]
Well, this is the Speech and this is the Steve Jobs speech. But he said back in 2005, and it quite simply was one of those, those bits of written material that gets given to you that shouldn’t change your life, but it has. And for me, there’s no other speech that has done that there. The speeches that I like their speeches, I gained something from it, but not something that has just changed my life from this. And every time I play this, I kind of try to decipher why it has done that to me, why did I want to create a show called Join Up Dots based on this, but this is the words of Steve Jobs.
Steve Jobs [34:35]
Of course, it was impossible to connect the dots looking forward when I was in college, but it was very, very clear looking backwards. 10 years later. Again, you can’t connect the dots looking forward, you can only connect them looking backwards. So you have to trust that the dots will somehow connect in your future. You have to trust in something, your gut, destiny life, karma, whatever because Believing that the dots will connect down the road will give you the confidence to follow your heart, even when it leads you off the well worn path. And that will make all the difference.
David Ralph [35:12]
So it does, it makes all the difference. And it makes such a big difference for me. And I think the key thing for it, and I think what really hit home for me was you got to trust in something. And I think that for quite a period of time, I wasn’t trusting in myself. I was able to talk the talk, and I was able to walk the walk, but I never had the trust, but I could do it myself. So I’d be the guy explained to people, you can do better than this. You can go off and do a job, you could get more money, I help you write your resume and that person would go off and get a really good job based on what I’ve kind of told him to do. And I kept on doing that. I kept doing that all the time. And more often than not people would go off to bit better jobs because of the way that I created the rest. Whatever. And when I listened to that, I think really it was saying, David, you don’t trust yourself. So shut up. Why are you saying this to all these people, if you’re not doing it yourself, shut up, just sit in that corner, play small. And I got angry. And actually, as I’m saying that now I feel angry because the many years I played small, I played small in a small poll, where now on the show, and when you get the emails from people across the globe, and they feel empowered by what you’re saying on a daily basis, I know that there’s no reason to feel small or play small, because people need you to go out and do your thing. And it may not be a podcast, it may be whatever is your talent, whatever inspires you. But you’ve got to trust in yourself. And if you trust in yourself and you go out and you do stuff because you feel the passion towards it. As Steve Jobs is saying that Adults will join up. I totally believe that and I see it and my guests see it and Dwayne sees it and everyone that I speak to. And I have a lot of conversations about this show in pubs. And people now kind of say to me, oh, yeah, you know, I never thought of it before, but it joins up. But what we’re joining up is our trust in our ability to move forward. And that is the big part of that speech. And as I say, I listened to every day, it never bores me. Sometimes I don’t sort of totally focusing on it, because I’m doing other stuff and I’m pressing buttons ready for the next question, whatever. But there’s moments just like them when I really concentrated it, on concentrated on it. And I realised that hit me at the right time. And he could have said, David, you’re letting yourself down. And that was the moment I started making my moves.
Dwain Scott [37:51]
And I think it’s it’s very profound that many people that I’ve listened to on all your episodes I’ve only heard I think one person that really Not like that speech. But Episode 98. That was Sarah, I remember it. Yeah. Because I kind of threw me off that he didn’t like it. But I think it was more of a personal hate for Steve Jobs than it was what he was saying. But I think it’s amazing that you were able to listen to that entirety of a speech and hear that one section, that one thing stood out in your mind. And what’s amazing about it is now you are behind a microphone, you were talking, you were sharing, you’re interviewing people on a day to day basis. And there are people out there, they’re going to hear these interviews, and they’re going to pull something as simple as the connect the dots speech from Steve Jobs, and they’re going to be inspired to do something great. And it’s all because you listen to one speech, and who knows how long of a line these dots are going to be. 20 years from now, those dots could be spread out over the entire country or the world globally. Because you decided at one point to listen to a speech, and that has inspired people and I know that as inspire many, many people with you creating the show, all based around that one talk, and what does it What does it do to you when you get an email? Or you get a get somebody that sends you a message on how they were inspired? How does it really make you feel about this journey you’re on so far?
David Ralph [39:25]
Well, one of the things it’s made me realise is that I was overly critical on some of the shows Well, when you’re recording shows back to back to back, some of them you feel inspirational, you feel really sort of the power is flooding through you. And others you kind of think God this is like pushing a boulder uphill, this person is really difficult. And at the end of it, I’ve had a couple that I thought to myself, should I release that? I don’t know. I don’t know if that’s really up to scratch. And they’re more often than not the ones that I get emails from from people saying I was listening to that show, and it was like it was speaking to me So that’s one of the things I’ve learned. But it doesn’t matter what the content feels like, to me. It’s what it feels like to be a listener. And so I can’t be critical on what feels good to me. I’ve got to throw it out being open honest and books and oh, and see how it falls, because there is messages to be had in all of them. If you are ready for that message, like I was with the Steve Jobs page. The other thing that I get is, so many people are almost looking for permission to start. And one of the things I’m going to do now with the show, because we’ve actually sent out an email to everyone to say to them old hood, subscribe. What do you want from the show going into the second year? What do you want from Join Up Dots? And I got a tsunami of responses back saying, We want less content, which kind of blew me away I thought, well, surely they want every single day. But it came back time and time again. We don’t have time to listen to every show. We really enjoy the content but we build it We’re just being flooded with it. And so some people are saying, I used to listen to all the time, but I’ve kind of given up on it now because it’s too much. So we now going to Monday, Wednesday, Friday, but I want to do bonus shows. And when I get these emails in from people, I used to just respond by email back to that person. So what I want to do now is actually build them in tonight, small bonus episodes, maybe 1015 minutes, answering people’s questions, asking them answering their problems, because the thing that keeps them coming back time and time again, is people almost want permission to start. They want permission to do things differently from other people. They want permission to feel alive. And it’s a crying shame that we feel that way because I it’s our life, we should go out and do it. And we you know, you’re only gonna be on this planet once didn’t solve everybody else and go out and do what you need to do. Because that’s how greatness is made. But people aren’t they’re frightened to one their mom’s gonna say that That’s gonna say, and hopefully that comes out in the show. So I don’t want to sort of say to everyone, don’t punch your boss in the face and just leap and, and go for it. I want a sensible approach to building your future. But I do want people to realise that it’s your future. It’s totally your future, go for it. And that is what I’ve got most from them from the emails really drain is the fact that people will reach out to me a complete stranger, almost asking for my permission, when that permission is already in them to do.
Dwain Scott [42:32]
So David, I, I, I’m surprised you came out. And you just told us you’re changing. You’re going to make a change. But the reason you did it was because of your listeners. And you’re responding to them. And I think that is absolutely important in anything you’re doing in life. You’re going to have an audience, you’re going to have customers you’re going to have people you work with whatever it is, you know, listen to the people around you and take the advice from them. But how do you think this is going to affect you going forward for you personally by changing up the show,
David Ralph [43:07]
I think all shows change. And I think that the best shows change as well. And they become more fluid. And by really flow to, to the listeners and what the listeners one and I was very focused on the very first episode of what I wanted to deliver for the listener. And I haven’t changed at all. I’ve always wanted to deliver what the listener wants, but I think I got caught up in the conveyor belt of it. And I had a Facebook message from a gentleman and he I won’t say his name, but if he’s listening, he know who he is. And he was a bit harsh. And he said to me, David, congratulations without mount of shows that you’re sort of releasing, but to be honest, I think you’re hiding behind the show. And I responded back to him and go well, thank you very much for that. But what do you mean by this? And he was saying, pretty much that you’ve got more to offer to the listener band just doing what you’re doing. That’s all right, that’s a star, but you need to take it to the next level. And this is your opportunity coming up to the year to actually sort of step back. And there was a little bit of me that thought, you know, what’s, what’s it gonna do with you? It’s my show, just just for a fraction because you get very protective about these things, because you’ve worked so hard to sort of develop it and sort of get it out to the world. And fortunately, I’m one of these people that very quickly, I think, Well, okay, maybe he’s right, maybe I should so like, check. So when I sent that email out to people, I literally thought that they would come back and go, now, just keep it as it is. But when they came back and said, No, go for three days a week. For a moment, I didn’t know what to do, and I realised vain but I had trapped myself. Yes, I was on that conveyor belt, that thing was running and I’ve got so many used to running, when it suddenly slowed down, my legs felt funny, and I didn’t know what to do next. Now I see multiple opportunities, I want to get the listeners more involved, I want to get them part of the show, I want to really make it a community, which I had never had the time before. So it’s going to become stronger. I know I can feel it, it’s going to become stronger, and it’s not going to become stronger just because of me talking into the mic is going to become stronger because we are starting to join up those dots, we are going to connect those dots of both people across the world. And if you are out there listening what you know, join up, just email us. And we’ve never been asked for this. But we get a private Facebook group, we get all those kind of things that other people do. And we start to connect. And we start to sort of build a support network for you and I don’t know how we’re going to do it. But hey, your listeners you tell me and we will develop it because that’s what it’s all about.
Dwain Scott [45:57]
And I think i think that’s that’s an amazing opportunity. Not just for your listeners, but for you to grow in a different direction. And I think that that’s something that your previous dots and being able to actually listen to somebody because anybody could have taken that guy’s Facebook message and when I piss off, go somewhere else, I don’t want to. I don’t want to talk to you about this. You don’t know nothing. I’m the one running the show, like you said, but you took his advice. You took it to heart. And I know we had conversations. The day you sent that email out about, you know, what was my opinion? And I think I said, Well, you know, I think you had to go down to the five days a week. And then when you came back and you told me, what your listeners were telling you, in response to this email that you sent a question out and of how how do you think I should do this? I was honestly surprised myself. And it may be because I’m a podcast or and I’m thinking, Well, you know, five is easier than seven and not thinking from the listeners perspective of, yeah, we’ve got to keep up with an hour long episode on a regular basis. Now not only are you giving yourself an opportunity to grow this community to grow Facebook group and, and to listen more and get get your listeners more active, but you’re freeing up their time as well, because they’re not going to have as many episodes to listen to on a day and day out basis. And and I think this is going to cause you such massive growth. But I hope you’re ready for Mr. Ralph.
David Ralph [47:25]
I’m ready for it. One of my problems. I think Dwayne is I care so much about the listeners, and I do, I’ve never met them. But when I think about them, and I get it from their emails, and you sort of project what the listener base is, it almost brings me to tears because it’s once again, it’s who I was. It was that person that didn’t quite trust in my own abilities didn’t quite believe I could go and do these things. And I see it time and time again for the people that I speak to on the show because they used to be those people So I think one of the problems I’ve got is that I do care too much. And I’m not one of these podcasters that just wants it to be a show that’s about me, I really do from the bottom of my heart want to make a difference, I want to make it valuable. So I’ve got to be very aware, but I don’t become some kind of blabbing missionary, but I become a focal point for them to direct their energies in, and almost a conduit so that we can once again we can connect and help them support each other as they push through. Because it doesn’t take a lot does it? You know, you and me supported each other when we didn’t even need to. And that got me I remember saying to you, before I even launched your show. I’m going to do a show. And you kind of went what’s it going to be about and I went, I’ve got no idea. And because you’d already opened into that conversation with me. It got my juices going, you know it wasn’t you come back and went well, what the hell you’re going to talk about, Don’t be an idiot. You just opened up a question, you know, what about and I think a lot of people Having got that they haven’t got these people around them to, to just say yes. How are you going to do it? What are you going to do it? How can I help you? How can I support and I think that’s the beauty of something that Join Up Dots and a lot of the other shows is where it’s quite easy to, to make those connections by using Virtual Media, whatever, so that people aren’t alone. And they’ve got people to talk to really, if that makes sense.
Dwain Scott [49:25]
I think it makes perfect sense mainly for the factor that that you’re going to have the ability within a group it’s not just going to be about David Ralph, it’s like with us, you know, as as listeners to another show, we became a support system, we became kicking the butt per se, you know, kind of like an accountability partners as some people might say, in the fancy terms they use today for you know, all these big groups they have but, you know, I, You held me accountable on things. I held you accountable on things and that’s going to be the awesome part about it when you start a group Get this thing rolling is each other, they’re going to hold each other accountable inside this group. And you’re just going to be there to go. Yep, it’s working. You know and and and throw in your part and help people out. Because if a guy, just south of Memphis, Tennessee, and a guy just outside of London can come together and have successful podcast when we had nothing when we met, and to be where we are today. I think it’s it’s amazing what this group can do and what can come out of it. And again, like I said earlier, 20 years from now, how far are the David Ralph Join Up Dots going to be spread across this country. It’s going to look like a big polka dot bikini around this country because of all the dots thanks to your show.
David Ralph [50:43]
Because I look back to Michael O’Neill showed a solo hour and basically you and me were like the first people to start commenting on his show. And I’ve never asked him this, but I would love to know whether we were he’s, he’s faith. We were his confidence. actually go because we were one of the first people to actually throw anything back to him. And whether without us if it was total silence whether he would have struggled because you don’t need much again, do you you don’t need much to actually really start to work on something. And what what do you reckon on that joint you reckon when we started commenting, do you think he actually thought, Wow, I’ve got a couple of listeners here. This might be all right.
Dwain Scott [51:26]
Well, you know, personally, for my ego, I think he went, Wow, I’ve got a couple of awesome listeners here. They’re actually willing to spot respond to communicate. And today, the show his show is still around because of us. I like to think that, but in all honesty, yes, I know how much that minimal support can be when somebody reviews you on iTunes and you see a nice review. I’ve had bad reviews on our show when we’ve had great reviews. But knowing that somebody is out there listening, you know, I I honestly if if my Voice hits one person’s ears. I’m happy and content that my voice is getting out there with what I’m discussing and what I’m talking about on the shifting more podcast. And it is amazing to me that you get one email in it, or you get one comment on a post and it it is it’s uplifting, and I’m gonna have to send out a little request to Mr. O’Neill and we’re gonna have to find out if we were a little bit of a support, kind of underground support for him to keep hustling and keep moving on.
David Ralph [52:30]
Well, I’ll send him send one as well, we’ll find out where say that we were talking about on the anniversary of Join Up Dots. But it goes out to the listeners again that if you are starting to get an idea about something, finding somebody that’s already doing it and say to them, what do you think? And if you get an email back and more often than not you will or you get a voicemail or something saying some nice stuff every day peva me We day read it. Now very first thing I did, I sent a little voicemail to the solo hour. And he played it on episode eight. And it’s about episode. It’s 16 minutes in or something on episode eight, so you can talk with over there and listen to it. And I played that every single day to myself for maybe three weeks to build up the competence to when I started actually reaching out to people and saying, I’ve got a show because I didn’t, I didn’t have anything. It was just me saying, I want to do a show. But I didn’t say that. I said, I’ve got a show, would you come on to it? But I played that every single day, just because he gave me a little bit of encouragement where it gave me a lot of encouragement, actually, at that time. And so do that reach out to people and try to get that little bit of momentum in your life. And you won’t believe how inspired you’ll feel because that one person believes in you. And I believe in you and Dwayne believes in you because you can go out and you can do it.
Dwain Scott [53:56]
I absolutely believe that anybody that’s within earshot of this podcast can go out and do what they want to do. And I’ll have David put my email address or my Facebook name or my group or whatever we need to, into the show notes and had contact me, you know, contact David, let’s let’s, let’s help these people grow. And I think what you’ve got going, David is awesome, what you’ve been through is awesome. And up to this point, I think you’ve shared more. And you’ve given every listener that subscribes to the show and listens on a regular basis, something that they’ve haven’t had before. They’ve got to see the inside of David Ralph, they’ve got to get a good feeling of it. You know, the guy that they don’t realise is working at the family shop a couple days a week, while he’s still working on this and, and doing all the things you do and supporting your family and being with your family and everything you do. But I think honestly, we’re getting close to that part of the show that i think you know what we’re talking about.
David Ralph [54:56]
I think I know the part you’re talking about. Are you talking about this The mic, sir.
Dwain Scott [55:01]
Yes, sir. Because you’re going to get to be like Marty McFly, you’re going to get to go back in time. This time. It’s David Ralph that gets to do the Sermon on the mic instead of listening to somebody else preach. I want you, David, to be Marty McFly, go back in time. Tell us what age would you go back and talk to before we play that?
David Ralph [55:20]
I think I would go back to probably six months before the show launch. So I would be 43 years old,
Dwain Scott [55:29]
already three years old. And for everybody that doesn’t know the day this show releases is also your birthday. So you will be 4545 and
David Ralph [55:39]
not a grey hair in my head.
Dwain Scott [55:41]
Not a grey hair and still looking like a rock star and saying I’m like one two. I know because you signed on my show.
David Ralph [55:47]
I did didn’t know. Yeah, sir. You dragged me?
Dwain Scott [55:52]
I sure did. I’ll do it again next time too. So let’s go ahead and let’s hit that sermon on the mic. You go back in time, David, and Share with your couple year ago younger self on how things can be. We go
Unknown Speaker [56:13]
with the best bit of the show.
David Ralph [56:29]
Wow, this is me going back to my 43 year old version, who hadn’t got his first microphone didn’t know a mixer from a cat and had no idea how to do a show, but just knew that he wanted to do something in his life. He wanted to do something bigger then he possibly done before. And what I would say to you my younger version is you are a lot better than you think you are. You can do a lot more venue. gave yourself a chance to do. You were playing the big game in a small pole for a long time. And you should have left that company five years previously, you could have done so much up to that point, but you didn’t because you were making excuses. And you were saying, oh, when the kids are at certain age, or when I get that bonus, or I’ve got a chance at that job of all those things. Now, looking back on it now I’m sure that you say you don’t actually want those jobs. You didn’t even want that bonus. He didn’t want all those things you wanted to build inspired on a daily basis. You wanted to love what you’re doing. You wanted to enjoy yourself. You want to get emails from people and you just want him to feel good. You wanted to feel proud that you were doing something and for a long time you didn’t feel proud. You just felt like you were going through the motions. And I remember you being in a pub one day, and you sat there waiting for your friend to turn up and you bought a pint for him and a pint for you and you were just thinking where had the I’ve gone wrong. And I will tell you, but life doesn’t go wrong. It only goes to places that you’ve taken it to. And you can bang, get up and you can join up that dot and go to somewhere that feels better. And the more better places that you go to, by your own efforts, even better things will occur. So I will say to you 43 year old, you can go on and you can do whatever you want. But don’t ever go back to that state of feeling sorry for yourself because you were purely letting yourself down. And nobody else. You got yourself into that state. You can get yourself out of it. Go and buy a microphone, start talking rubbish on a daily basis, create a show, and whatever comes out of it will come out of it. But it will be so much better than you’ve ever done before. Enjoy yourself. And hey, I’m actually proud of you. Cheers, mate.
Dwain Scott [58:54]
Wow, absolutely wonderful. And I actually sit here and I close my eyes. While you were talking, David and I could almost picture me having that same conversation with myself a year and a half, two years ago, and really very inspiring. And I hope the listeners really take time to listen to your personal sermon on the mic, something they’ve waited a year for. And I think it’s about time that that you were able to share and I can’t I can’t thank you enough for you inviting me to interview the David Ralph, the king of the interviews, and I hope I’ve lived up to your expectations today.
David Ralph [59:32]
You have been a beyond anything you put me to shame as I say with my girly voice. But honestly, may I say this, and this isn’t on the show. This is just me talking to a friend. But you were the only person that I would allow to host Join Up Dots. There’s been people that have been close to it over the years, or if it was years, it’s only a year, but you’re the only only person that I know that would understand and understand me and and get The real me out and when I was doing that sermon on the mic, I could feel the tears coming, I could feel it. I could feel those wasted opportunities. I could feel all those kind of stuff so it’s not surprising now, but so many of my guests do cry because you can just see that we’re only here once and I’m proud to say that you’re my mate and you were here on the Anniversary Show.
Dwain Scott [1:00:23]
Well, it makes me very proud of myself and it has been quite emotional for me and more on the happy side. But our friendship we’ve we’ve gone through the good we’ve gone through the bad and everybody out there that’s listening to this. I am so happy that I was able to take part of the one year anniversary of the show the 360 fifth show, but also David’s birthday. So everybody wish David a happy birthday. When you listen to this and you realise Not only is it show on ease, one I mean, 45 years old to when I
David Ralph [1:01:02]
screwed you over actually because we’ve gone three days a week. Now you see, so my birthday was yesterday. It was
Dwain Scott [1:01:09]
your birthday yesterday. This is the 360 fifth show. 367367789
David Ralph [1:01:15]
Yeah, whatever it is, it’s the Anniversary Show.
Dwain Scott [1:01:19]
It’s the Anniversary Show and David’s birthday was within the last couple of days. Boom. How about that? But anyway, so David, are you going to close out anything on this wonderful episode about what you got going your future and where those dots are leading.
David Ralph [1:01:35]
The only thing I will say to all the listeners out there thank you so much for making the show a success. Thank you so much for leaving iTunes reviews. I don’t generally ever ask about that. If you’ve got a moment or two to pop over. It really is the Rocket Power that pushes the shows up higher. And and thanks for the emails. And believe me, you have got a host here that isn’t just a hose. He’s a friend and he’s somebody that cares and I so much want to see you really get alive, even, you know, part of as good as I’m feeling at the moment because you can and fingers crossed, you can do even better than I’ve done and even better than you could possibly believe. And that goes out from my heart to all of you without sounding cheesy. That’s how I feel.
Dwain Scott [1:02:17]
Awesome, David. Well, you know, normally you end up telling your guests that, you know, as they get more dots, and they start joining up more dots that you’d love to have him back on the show. And I would love for you to come back on the next episode of your own show.
David Ralph [1:02:29]
I’m going to do that. And so I’m going to finish off myself, actually. So I’m going to say thank you so much for spending time with us today joining those dots. And please come back again tomorrow when you have more dots to join up because I do believe that by joining up the dots and connecting our past is the best way to build our futures. Mr. David, Ralph, thank you so much. Thanks for listening to today’s episode of Join Up Dots brought to you exclusively by podcast is mastery.com. The only resource that shows you how to create A show, build an income and still have time for the life that you love. Check out podcast is mastery.com.
Now, David doesn’t want you to become a faded version of the brilliant self you or wants to become. So he’s put together an amazing guide for you called the eight pieces of advice that every successful entrepreneur practices, including the two that changed his life. Head over to Join Up dots.com to download this amazing guide for free and we’ll see you tomorrow on Join Up Dots.