Hans Finzel Joins Us On The Steve Jobs Inspired Join Up Dots Podcast

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Introducing Hans Finzel

Hans Finzel is today’s guest joining us on the Steve Jobs inspired  Join Up Dots business podcast interview.

He is a successful author, speaker and trusted authority in the field of leadership.

For 20 years he led international non-profit World Venture.

Serving in over 65 countries and now spends much of his time speaking and writing on practical leadership principles from the real world—not the classroom.

The kind of stuff that corporations across the world are crying out for as the demand for top, productive and efficient leaders become more and more desirable.

Hans Finzel has written nine books, including his bestseller “The Top Ten Mistakes Leaders Make”

How The Dots Joined Up For Hans

As we said this information is a global concern, which has led to them being translated into over twenty foreign languages.

If that doesn’t sound like he has enough on his plate already then how about this.

He also serves President of HD Leaders, and is chief leadership guru on“The Leadership Answer Man” podcast doing well in ITunes and other platforms.

So did his desire to tackle leadership issues come from working with people who just wasn’t up to the job, even though they were in prime positions?

Or like most things that become our lifework, did it simply creep up on him and till he couldn’t resist it anymore?

Well let’s bring onto the show to start todays Join Up Dots free podcast interview, as we discuss the words of Steve Jobs with the one and only  Hans Finzel

Show Highlights

During the show we discussed such weighty topics with Hanz Finzel such as:

How he remembers working under a terrible boss as a young man, who gave him all the content for his first book based on Leadership.

Why he spends a lot of time listening intently to peoples problems.

Holding peoples hands, giving them the courage to lead from the front.

Why it is so strange that so many people try to self sabotage their own chance of success and dream fulfilment.

Why the hardest part of a terrible job is that it can take away your own self-belief.

Making it very difficult to shake things up an create your future.

And lastly….

How he remembers rebelling against his parents who never thought that he matched up against his siblings…..although he now has a different perspective.

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Full Transcription Of Hans Finzel Interview

David Ralph [0:00]
Today’s show is brought to you by podcast is mastery.com. The premier online community teaching you to podcast like a pro check us out now. podcasters mastery.com

Intro [0:12]
when we’re young, we have an amazing positive outlook about how great life is going to be. But somewhere along the line we forget to dream and end up settling. Join Up Dots features amazing people who refuse to give up and chose to go after their dreams. This is your blueprint for greatness. So here’s your host live from the back of his garden in the UK. David Ralph.

David Ralph [0:37]
Yes, hello, everybody and welcome to Join Up Dots. Yes, it’s David Ralph. Of course it is. And this is Episode 391. I’m coming out to 400 episodes now and I’m just starting to really enjoy every single episode, I think is is exactly what I wanted right at the beginning and it proves really to all you listeners out there, but it’s takes a while to find your footing. It really does. So don’t expect it to happen overnight. Don’t expect it to happen over a couple of weeks. If you want something go after it. And certainly our guest is somebody that has gone after it. Because he is someone who is a successful first speaker, and trusted authority in the field of leadership for 20 years, he led international nonprofit world venture, serving in over 65 countries, and now spends much of his time speaking and writing on practical leadership principles from the real world, not the classroom. the kind of stuff that corporations across the world are crying out for as the demand for top productive and efficient leaders become more and more desirable. He’s written nine books, including his best seller but top 10 mistakes leaders make. And as we said this, in this information is truly a global concern which has led them being translated into over 20 foreign languages. That doesn’t sound like he’s got enough on his plate already, when he also serves as president of HD leaders and the chief leadership guru The leadership Answer Man podcast doing well in iTunes and other platforms. Everyone’s got a podcast nowadays, I don’t know how it’s happened. So did his desire to tackle leadership issues come from working with people who just wasn’t up to the job, even though they were in prime positions, or like most things that become our life work, did it simply creep up on him until he couldn’t resist it anymore? Well, let’s find out as we bring on the show to start joining up dots with the one and only Hans Finzel. How are you, Hans?

Hans Finzel [2:27]
Great. Wonderful to be with you today. Thank you so much for having me.

David Ralph [2:31]
Now. It’s absolutely a delight to have you on. So as we were talking beforehand, and regionally, you were from Germany, but now you are in sunny Colorado America. Was that was that by choice? Or was that the work taking you over there?

Hans Finzel [2:44]
Well, actually, I I am first generation American grew up in a German home. But I was actually born here in the US, but was brought up speaking German, very much a German culture. I’ve very much a trans cultural person feel very at home, in, in Germany as well as the US. And it doesn’t give you an outsider’s point

David Ralph [3:10]
of view. Can you see the way that America operates differently from maybe somebody who hasn’t got that sort of generational

Hans Finzel [3:17]
difference? Totally. I really do. I think we’re not going to get into politics today. But sometime anyway, we want leaders with no I wish leaders with international leaders need to spend more time and other cultures, appreciating that different cultures have very different worldviews and points of view. I apply that in the world of leadership because leadership is very different in Uganda than it is in Taiwan than it is in the United States. So yeah, I’m a very transcultural person, I love travelling the world, the foods the smells, the tastes of the world, just excite me. You sounded

David Ralph [3:56]
exciting when when you were saying that I thought this is a man who kind of lb DS thing and he still in love with these things, even though you’ve been doing it for so many years and stuff, it’s still something that he keeps you going every day.

Hans Finzel [4:10]
Yeah, and I kind of gravitated toward the field of leadership because history is a story of leaders, great leaders and terrible leaders who did wonderful good and terrible harm. And I see a lot of people really miserable in leadership. I was miserable under a boss when I was a young man. And for some reason, I gravitated toward this field and eventually got my PhD in this arena of leadership because, you know, I just think my passion is to help leaders do a better job so that don’t frustrate followers so much.

David Ralph [4:43]
Because there is a distinct difference isn’t a lot of people out there and I’ve come from the corporate background, will consider a leader to be a manager but he’s a totally different beast, isn’t it?

Hans Finzel [4:55]
Yeah, leaders and managers are very different. I always say a leader, you know, figures out where we We should go and helps people get there. I mean, it gives them the vision and the dream to go. I think the manager sort of builds the bridge to get us there very different managers and more mechanical and leaders and more visionary in my mind. And I want to ask audiences, how many of you have worked for a terrible boss? Generally 90 95% of people will raise their hand. So that’s been one of my quests is to figure out, you know, what are the signs of a miserable boss, and how can we fix that? So people empower instead of frustrate,

David Ralph [5:33]
so I actually jumped into doing this field because of terrible boss. So yeah, we’ve all encountered them. So well, what was the one when he was a young man? Why are you still you’ve got that image of that person in your in your head? What will they like?

Hans Finzel [5:49]
The terrible boss? Yeah, that’s right. Yeah, well, I think that fact that’s where my book the top 10 mistakes leaders make was born as I began to Figure out what are the big mistakes that frustrated me so much. The first one is the top down attitude. I won’t go through all 10 but it’s the the person who thinks they’re on the top of the mountain, everybody should serve them. They’re the smartest, they are dictators, they don’t know how to delegate properly. You know, control freaks don’t know how to delegate and empower and give, you know, authority with responsibility. And so those are some of the big characteristics that really frustrate followers when you know, I’m just controlled I have no say in the future. I don’t get to make any decisions. I’m just treated like, you know, like a machine or like just a cog in a big machine.

David Ralph [6:45]
So this this really bad boss has he got a sort of a thank you and in the front pages of your book, did you thank him for being so rubbish? Oh, it might be

Hans Finzel [6:54]
a hurt. It was it wasn’t him and I did thank him. I didn’t mention said to him, you know, I mean, I, of course did not mention his name but I, I said this book was born out of the frustration of your, your leadership and lack thereof. You’re controlling I eventually I was living in Europe at the time I eventually quit that job. Because this person stood in the way of my dreams. And it got so frustrating and so dysfunctional, I just quit. I just said, I cannot work under this kind of leadership. If you can’t respect the people that you work for, you’re going to be in a miserable place. Now a lot of people are in that place, sadly, because their options maybe aren’t all that they could be. Yeah,

David Ralph [7:39]
but you say that and one of the things that we we talked about time and time again, is that you are the creator of your own destiny when you start deciding to take decisions and making the choices that can actually take you in a direction that you want, whether it’s the wrong direction, and that’s the key point what a lot of people think they’ve got to go From a crappy position to utopia instantly, and it generally doesn’t work that way. But once you start making those decisions, you realise that you have got choices and you don’t have to be trapped and you don’t have to be unhappy. And you don’t actually have to be working for terrible bosses, even if they’re giving you all the content for your book many years later.

Hans Finzel [8:20]
Yeah, I do find a lot of people don’t realise that a career is like, stepping stones are like a level in the shopping mall where you have different floors that you go up the escalator to the next floor. Some people want to get to the top floor immediately. They don’t they don’t realise you can’t get from the bottom floor to the top floor with one escalator. So I just encourage people to take risks and I’m a big fan of the principle he was faithful and little things will be put in charge of much things many things. But you have to pay your dues. You have to demonstrate your willingness to be a team player to be loyal to be better. Well to be a good worker, and I’d be Thank you be rewarded. But sometimes people get into it, my oldest son is in a very toxic situation in his job right now. He’s been trying for a year to find a different job. And he’s just punching the clock, as we say, here in the US going to work every day, but he’s miserable. And the reason he’s miserable is because the leadership and ownership of the company has lost direction and vision, but they won’t listen to the younger people. But I you know, I keep encouraging him, you know, you’ve got to leave you just can’t stay in this toxic environment. And he’s working at it, but I find a lot of people are stuck in that situation.

David Ralph [9:39]
I was speaking to a gentleman this morning who was telling me about his daughter was saying to him, dad, I’d really love to work in San Francisco and and be out in America and she she was born and raised in in Ireland. So it was it was moving to a different country. And he said to her, Well, why don’t you do it when it’s not as easy as but she kept on coming up with all these So have excuses. And so every time I sat down on the sofa, she’d mentioned it. And so finally he went, look, I’m not talking about this anymore unless you resign and do something about it. Don’t ever mention it again, because he never taken my advice, end of story. And so she got a bee in her bonnet and quit her job. And two weeks later, got another job in San Francisco exactly what she wanted to do, because once she did actually take control, she realised she could do something about it. And it wasn’t the scary fact of waiting for somebody to hand it to her on a play. She actually just went and grabbed the plate and found the job.

Hans Finzel [10:36]
I love that story. That’s so true. You have to take risks. And the younger you are, I think the more you can take risks and it’s easier because when you get older, a lot of times you have more obligations and you just don’t have maybe the spirit of risk taking that you had when you were younger. So I bet this great story and I applaud her father for having the Courage to really confront her and say, you know, quit talking about something and not willing to do anything about I love. That’s a great story.

David Ralph [11:09]
Now you you go into corporations obviously. Are you invited in or is it part of a wider programme? How do you actually develop your relationships with your clients?

Hans Finzel [11:22]
I would say that I don’t have an actual programme I basically I’m an author who write books, I write books about leadership and most of the contacts that I get invitations to speak, I’m more of a mentor and a coach. I don’t have a programme where I say go through my programme and you’ll be an amazing leader. I think leadership is very complicated, and I don’t know that there is a secret to being a great manager or leader. But I like more the approach of just mentoring and coaching people and I have a lot of CEOs that I work with one on one, helping them understand their blind Spot speaking with wisdom into their leadership. And then of course, my books are the biggest things that kind of opens the door for me into these opportunities. Do you have to go back to

David Ralph [12:13]
the floor? Or do you actually have to go back into corporations to keep your knowledge current? Could Could you be speaking even though you’re an established speaker and an author, could you be speaking about a time and a place that’s not there anymore? Or is it always going to be coming?

Hans Finzel [12:30]
I spent a lot of time with leaders and in their actual environment, talking to them and listening. I do a lot of listening. And so I know I’m current because I’m listening to current problems and current issues that they’re facing recently. I was with one executive who just didn’t have the courage to fire a very dysfunctional woman on the team, who was holding the entire team back. It was so obvious to me as an outsider, and you know my role with this person was to hold his hand and to give him the courage to do what had to be done. He did eventually see to it that this woman was off the bus as we like to say in you got to get the right people on the bus and the wrong people off the bus of leadership. It when she finally left, he said, Thank you for helping me because it’s like a breath of fresh air. All of a sudden, everything is different. And everybody feels better about the team and the meetings, because and thank you for giving me the courage to do what had to be done. So I would say it’s very relevant because I spend time inside the organisations

David Ralph [13:39]
in America can you just literally say to somebody, they lost their job then because in the United Kingdom, you actually have to manage them out with performance reports. It takes forever in a day. You hire someone and then you realise you made a terrible mistake, but you can’t just get rid of them. It takes it takes ages to get with them.

Hans Finzel [13:57]
It depends on the industry. in government and in education in America, it’s very, it’s very difficult to get rid of somebody almost impossible. But in private industry, it’s, you do have to cover your tracks document, yes through performance reviews. But most, I think we have a lot of freedom in America because we have what we call at will employment. Where and and that’s the kind of company I ran, which means there’s no contract with the person, we hire them at will which means we can let them go it will at any time that we feel there are no longer useful. So we don’t have the cumbersome situation that I know you have there. But there are protected classes, meaning minorities, women and older people, and those are the ones you have to be the most careful about because they are what’s called here in America protected class so they can come back and sue you for this missile and say it’s because I’m a minority because I’m a woman or because I’m over 60.

David Ralph [15:07]
So if we take you back in time hands, which we love to do on Join Up Dots, what’s your path? link to where you are now? Is it a surprise to you that you’re doing what you’re doing now, even though you love it? What did the little homes fancy doing?

Hans Finzel [15:22]
You know, I, I had no idea what I was going to do. When I was growing up. I’m not like one of these kids, young people who said, I’m going to be a doctor, I’m going to be an airline pilot. I’m going to be a business owner. I sort of drifted in my young adult years. But I am surprised that I’m doing what I’m doing now. And it’s because of some decisions I made along the way. One thing I’ve learned very keenly is we’re very different at every decade of our lives. And what motivates us in our 20s perhaps bores us in our 40s and of course, we hopefully are growing In developing but yeah, I’m, I’m happy I’m doing what I’m doing now. And in a few moments, I’ll tell you some of the steps that I took to get there. But I did not see myself as an author. And now I’ve written nine books I never would have thought I’d write a book. I mean, I was terrible in high school, I barely graduated high school, you know, I was a terrible student, because I was totally not motivated. And that’s a real key. You know, once you find your passion and something you love, then you get motivated. And now I love writing and I’ve learned how to be a good writer. But it’s all around following your heart. That’s what I like to say. Do what you love, love what you do. And it took me a while to get there, but I really feel I’m there now.

David Ralph [16:45]
Well, of course, we want to hear about steps that led you to where you are today. But before that, I’m going to play some words about a hugely inspirational I learned to play him almost on every show, and I’m gonna play him again. Now. These are the words from Jim Carrey.

Jim Carrey [16:57]
My father could have been a great comedian, but he He didn’t believe that that was possible for him. And so he made a conservative choice. Instead, he got a safe job as an accountant. And when I was 12 years old, he was let go from that safe job. And our family had to do whatever we could to survive. I learned many great lessons from my father, not the least of which was that you can fail at what you don’t want. So you might as well take a chance on doing what you love.

David Ralph [17:24]
is a good words to get out there on a daily basis.

Hans Finzel [17:29]
Yes, it reminds me of my mentor when I was in graduate school. It’s exactly he said, Men and women, my greatest fear for you is not that you will fail but that you will succeed at the wrong thing. I love that quote, because it’s the same principle. Sometimes people get to the top of the ladder of success, only to find out it’s leaning against the wrong wall. And that was his caution to us. Don’t become successful. Something that you don’t have your heart in. And that’s not what you’re meant to be.

David Ralph [18:05]
So did you see the principle because it’s taken me by surprise doing this show, but more often than not, people are scared of the success they’re getting as not getting it in the first place. Have you ever seen that in your life in real example?

Hans Finzel [18:22]
I hear it a lot. Yes, I think some people are afraid of success. The greatest fear that they have we way down deep as their dreams might actually come true. Now, that’s never been my problem. But I have seen that and quite a few other people where they, they get tripped up because their dream is becoming realised and it kind of scares them and maybe overwhelms them.

David Ralph [18:47]
A strange, isn’t it because you would as a small child, you kind of think Yeah, I want to be successful. I want to be a princess. I want to be a king. I want to be a scientist or whatever any of these big dreams. And when you get older and you get a chance to actually go for it and you get close to it. You You can almost self sabotage you can stop it from happening because deep down you kind of feel that you’re not worthy somehow. Could that be why it happens?

Hans Finzel [19:10]
Yeah, I do think it’s, it’s a feeling I’m not worthy. Yeah, I think a lot of people struggle with feelings of lack of worthiness. I’ve struggled with that my whole life because like Jim Carrey, is it what a grand love that guy and my father, you know, gave me the message that I didn’t measure up to my brother and sister were older. Because I was a maverick. I was very different than my brother and sister and I. I’ve always been an extreme nonconformist. And so my father sort of gave me this message. You’re no good, you don’t measure up and I’ve been plagued with that my whole life and had to push through it.

David Ralph [19:51]
I’ve been told all the way through my professional life. David, you’re a maverick. You’re a maverick, like it’s a bad thing. And I now look at it as a badge of honour. Now I look at it as a kind of a spirit that has taken me into areas that perhaps I wouldn’t have done if I was just going for the status quo. So do you look back on it now and think to yourself, yeah, I was a maverick, but thank God I was,

Hans Finzel [20:13]
yes, I I wear it as a badge of honour as well. In fact, one of my chapters in the top 10 mistakes leaders make is no room for Mavericks. That’s a mistake that leaders make when they don’t let people like us flourish in a company or an organisation or a setting. Mavericks bring us the future because they are idea people in there, they colour outside the lines. Now when I was a kid and a teenager, I was this was in the 60s, it was the the era of hippies and I became a hippie and I was on drugs. I was part of the counterculture here in America that was anti war during Vietnam. But all that actually I look back with great satisfaction. I was playing Hang out my Maverick spirit I did not want to conform with society we desperately need nonconformists because the world changes so dramatically. At one of my favourite quotes is from Robin cook. In the book abduction in the book abduction, it’s a fiction. He said in times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with the world that no longer exists. That’s the kind of world we live in a world of dramatic change. So Mavericks like you and me, David, we bring people into the future.

David Ralph [21:39]
I think you’re right. I think it’s people like us, but are the ones that go this is possible. And if it’s not possible, why the hell isn’t it because I kind of now think but anything’s possible. It blows my mind what people are doing, and it blows my mind. I have these conversations with people and they tell me what they’re doing. I can’t even understand how their brain is. even started thinking that it was possible to do but but by kind of by doing that, I’m interested with you as as a younger man when you were going through that stage and it was the sort of the hippie and the sort of anti war stance and all that kind of stuff. He was that you playing a part was that you joining in with a nonconformist? Did you really believe in what you was marching against and sort of going against?

Hans Finzel [22:26]
It was mainly a reaction against my parents. You know, I was a rebellious child. I told you it began with my parents saying you don’t measure up to your brother and sister. They were good at school. I wasn’t they were total conformance. I wasn’t I grew my hair long. And I think I was reacting against my parents lives and this was going what was going on in America in the 1960s is after the World War Two was over and the abundance came to America when the war was over in the 50s and 60s. Everybody got very materialistic. And I think I was reacting against materialism of my parents. We’ve got this war going on, we got all these problems in the world and all they care about is their wall to wall carpet in the house and their furniture in their cars. So I think I was rebelling against my parents that but as I look back years later, I don’t think I had the answer. I just knew they didn’t have the answer. And so I was trying something different.

David Ralph [23:33]
So who’s closer to your parents now, but the person that you was earlier on Now, can you continue? See what they were like? Are you closer to them now?

Hans Finzel [23:44]
Well, they’re both gone. They’re not living anymore. But but in spirit,

but in spirit, I’m much closer to them now. And in the last years of their life, we got very close because I grew. I grew to appreciate their story. they immigrated to America. America after world war two from Germany that had been destroyed in the war. Finally, they could have a nice house after all those years of suffering. And so when I got older, I realised, oh my gosh, I love my parents and, and now I embrace their story. And you know, they weren’t so wrong, and I wasn’t so right. So yeah, it’s amazing how time changes your perspective. And that’s the beauty of life. And

David Ralph [24:25]
that’s the beauty of a show like Join Up Dots because you look back over your timeline. And you can see that the black dots are the good dots and the good dots that are bad dots, and it all kind of mixes up but is it’s only when you look back and you join up your doors. You can actually see those steps that got you here. And of course, we’re going to touch on that now. Because you mentioned earlier you were going to share those steps of how you move from that child, or that young adolescent who wasn’t really sure of his path to actually working towards something. How did you do a

Hans Finzel [24:55]
couple of things I did. First of all, you have to figure out who you are at every stage of life. I’m older. I’m a baby boomer. And you have I figured out who I was through taking, you know a lot of these test instruments like strengths finders and the disc test and the Myers Briggs but I really tried to figure out who am I at this stage of my life. I asked for trusted advice from people who knew me well. And I began to ask myself the question, why am I on this planet? And what is my ultimate contribution that I uniquely can give people that nobody else can, you know, what is my unique message? And so that led me to create some what I call necessary endings I had to stop doing. I actually gave up my career as a CEO after 20 years. When when I got older because I realised I no longer had the heart for it. So I had to bring that that era to conclusion and sometimes We have to go through necessary endings and stop doing things. So we can start doing our passionate things we love. So I resigned from that job started my new business that I’m doing now I took a lot of risk. And I did a lot of experimentation. And I have to say, David, I’m still in the experimentation stage. Because when you create your own job and your own business and your own thing, you don’t have a crystal ball that tells you exactly what’s going to work and what’s not going to work. So you have to experiment with a lot of different things.

David Ralph [26:36]
And does it feel like play to you more of an experimenting?

Unknown Speaker [26:40]
Yes, yes.

David Ralph [26:42]
It does that excite you the fact that your your work becomes play and play becomes work, because that’s one of the themes that runs through the show everyone who’s nailed it literally says, I don’t work anymore. And I will come back to him and say, Well, you did 14 hours yesterday. Now. That wasn’t voting hours work that was 14 hours play that was me enjoying myself very different state of mind to the listeners who are probably glued to this conversation who are going to spend eight or nine hours in a job but I don’t even want to be there in the first place. So did you feel blessed but your your life is hitting the playground?

Hans Finzel [27:21]
I love it. I’m doing what I love and I’m loving what I’m doing. So I don’t view it as work anymore. I view it as you know, it’s I’d like to talk to people I asked people the lottery question. You have lottery there and I say if you won the lottery, what would you do you know you first you’d buy stuff that you’ve been wanting to buy, but after a few months that would wear out? What would you do with your time and whatever that list is is your passion list. And I’m doing the things I love and I’m loving what I’m doing and you know what I’m so thankful for? I don’t have to go back to that j o b anymore. was the CEO, I was the President, I was well compensated at a lot of power and prestige. But my heart wasn’t in it anymore. And I’m so thankful. I don’t have to go to that place anymore because it became just drudgery and work. Does that make sense? Yeah,

David Ralph [28:17]
he does. But that’s a brave decision. And funnily enough, the first chap I interviewed this morning was the CEO of his own company. And he remembers being in a boardroom and looking around and thinking, Oh, my God, this is boring. Why? Why am I putting myself into that? So he quit his job. Now, at that stage, people thought he was made, he got to the top of the ladder. But as he said, and you sort of alluded to earlier, he found himself on the wrong ladder. So did you have people saying to you at that time, hands, hands, just take two weeks off, just go and have a break and rest and then you’ll come back and you’ll be refreshed? You’re mad to be throwing away?

Hans Finzel [28:56]
Yes, I did. And it wasn’t my company. It was a big internet. national nonprofit company that I was hired to be the CEO and I ran it for 20 years, but I had the exact same experience. I would go through budget meetings or I would go through board meetings and I realised everything I love doing I do after work around the edges of my life. And the core of my job is just boring me. My heart’s not in anymore. But yes, when I quit, people said, You’re crazy. And and I said to myself, I’m crazy. I was, I’m making now about a third of what I used to make financially, because I’m still in that land between building my new dream. And I always say, you know, if you follow your heart, the money will come afterwards. But I think just alone financially, people said, You’re crazy to give up that amazing, the perks, the position, the prestige, and I said, You know what, I would rather I’d rather make a lot less money. I love what I do. And that’s what I’m gonna do,

David Ralph [30:04]
I think credit to you and we’ve got similar paths because when I quit my job, I literally went from having a very nice lifestyle with holidays and different things like that to just being able to pay my bills each month and nothing more. And I’m still working towards regaining that salary I had, but on my own terms, and it doesn’t matter how long it takes because I know in my heart of hearts, it will get there because the passion and the enjoyment just makes me spring out of bed every day. I’m happy to do 15 hours a day doing this where before I would have said, this is slave labour. You got to pay me more and all that kind of stuff goes out the window, doesn’t it when you find your thing. It is a key thing for the listeners out there to really focus in on what they could do for our upon hour upon hour. And Ben try to find a way of building income into it.

Hans Finzel [31:01]
Absolutely. You know, I think you learn in life as you grow older that, you know, money is not what it’s all about. And that doesn’t matter how much you’re compensated it to me it became a hollow existence. And I hated Monday mornings, I did not want to go into work. And if you don’t want to go into work, no matter how much you’re getting compensated, it just it’s obvious you’re not living in your passion zone. That’s what I call it. The passion zone is when who you are lines up with what you’re doing. And the more the overlap is, the more you’re living your dream and your passion. So, absolutely. And I, I’m, I’m on the same journey you’re on and I made the decision. The money is not the most important thing. The most important thing is to follow your passion and follow your heart and and the money will come eventually, and you don’t need as much money. You know, how many millionaires are out there that are absolutely miserable, huh?

David Ralph [32:02]
Yeah, it’s true I think to myself as long as I can have a few pints every now and again, and, and happy Netflix that’s about it really very humble existence. So I’m going to play some more words, we’re gonna throw them all into the mix today because these are words that really sort of emphasise that point where you’ve done the Jim Carrey bit, you’ve taken the risk, you’re going for something you love, but then you think, well, how the hell do I do this? I’ve got no idea. It’s all new to me. This is Oprah.

Oprah Winfrey [32:32]
The way through the challenge is to get still an ask yourself, what is the next right move? not think about, Oh, I got all of this stuff. What is the next right move? And then from that space, make the next right move, and the next right move and not to be overwhelmed by it because you know, your life is bigger than that one moment. You know, you’re not defined by what somebody says is a failure. Failure for you, because failure is just there to point you in a different direction.

David Ralph [33:04]
So is that how you’ve done it? You You left your job? You went home, you might have had a couple of days off and then you thought, What are better start to it? Well, I don’t know what to do. I’ll just do something and Bane keep on doing something and meant something more.

Hans Finzel [33:20]
Absolutely. It’s a lot of experimentation, and a lot of risk taking. And I like her analogy. It’s my analogy of the shopping mall. You and I know you have big shopping malls in England that we do in America. I’ve been to China and seen some of the biggest shopping malls on planet Earth. But imagine the mall and you have all these different levels of floors and you have escalators taking you from one to the next. And what she was saying I agree with you can only take the escalator to the next floor you there is no escalator to take you from the bottom to the top. And like it or not when you launch out on your own. You have to start again at the Bottom bottom of a new industry, you know, I had, for example, social media. I had to learn social media, the whole industry, I had to learn podcasting, you can’t start on the top floor. So yes, and I just think the escalator lead you. And guess what, David, you know this too, there’s more than one escalator to us. So your first task is to take that step. Take that escalator to the next level, and then figure out where you’re at and choose your next one after that. That’s really the process of experimentation and risk taking that will eventually lead you to a good place. I’ve been into this thing now about three years since I left my day job that I had. And I feel like it’s taken me three years to begin to really get a handle on what’s working and what’s not working. And how I can be the most productive with my day is an interesting

David Ralph [34:57]
thing, isn’t it? Because when you look back on it, you think God could have done it quicker. Because of that experience is built up. Now we have a child’s game over here. And it’s probably named something different, but we call it Snakes and Ladders where you go up the ladders. And when you sleep, slip down the snakes and you sort of go back up and down. I feel that’s how my life has been over the last year and a half where I’m making great progress. And then for some reason, I throw a six and I go down about four or five layers. But that’s that’s all experience built up, isn’t it?

Hans Finzel [35:27]
Absolutely. Unfortunately, there are steps back. Absolutely. And I have discouraging days. I’m sure you do, too. We’re where I think this is not working or what did I do to give up that comfortable life? There are times you do have setbacks, there are things you will do an attempt to do. If you’re an entrepreneur, and if you’re working for yourself. You’ll do things that don’t work. They’ll be failures, and you have to embrace the fact that yes, two steps forward one step back to that last year. Have more steps for then you have steps back. But yes, going out and following your dreams is rock with danger and disappointment. And that’s why, at the end of the day, you have to believe in what you’re doing. And you really, here’s one of the scariest parts for me, David, I learned I had to really believe in myself. And that’s something that a lot of us struggle with. If you’re just stuck in a job somewhere and you punch the clock, you go into work. You don’t have to believe in yourself, you can get a paycheck no matter what you believe. But when you go out on your own, you are really selling yourself. And you have to believe in yourself and that can be a huge struggle.

David Ralph [36:40]
But what you find is the when you start Well actually, I give you my own experience. When I started this, I kind of played a role for a while, and then people started believing in me before I believed in myself. And that was my sort of fuel to keep on pushing forward pushing Forward. Now I feel naturally comfortable. And now I feel that I can do these things and I believe in myself. But when you make that leap, I think a lot of the time most people have will have got to a point where the bad boss has forced them out. And the bad bosses made them feel bad about themselves, or they just that their competence dwindles away somehow, and I think this is just rubbish. So it’s difficult to get that belief again, isn’t it? Is that difficult is that make that leap and actually do a running leap instead of just stumbling out of a window?

Hans Finzel [37:35]
Absolutely. My oldest son who’s 33, I believe are 34 and married. Dad,

David Ralph [37:43]
you don’t know he’s

Hans Finzel [37:44]
easy. I know, really. But he’s the one stuck in this very miserable job. And you know, he’s been telling me lately that I don’t believe in myself anymore. I have been so crushed by the leadership’s lack of belief in me and Don’t listen to me. I used to think I had a lot to offer. But now I just have no self confidence. Yes, a terrible job can crush your spirit. And that’s another reason I keep telling him you’ve got to get out of there because you have so much to offer the world and you’re so gifted, but absolutely, it’s, it can be can be just so miserable to be stuck in a miserable job.

David Ralph [38:23]
Well, um, but what if you said to him, other than just get yourself out there because there is many different ways to get that belief back isn’t it and what we call it this the slide of faith, start working on things whilst you’re at that job, so that you can rediscover your mojo and you can feel inspired and passionate about something. So what what have you actually sort of advised other than getting the hell out of there?

Hans Finzel [38:45]
Well, I used to advise a lot of other techniques and things to try to make the Mojo work because I have another book I wrote recently called the power of passion and leadership. And in that book, I talked about the fact that if you’re not in your passion, shinzon you’ve got two choices. One is to get your groove back, you know, get your mojo back by there’s a lot of suggestions I give them without changing your job, reconfiguring it doing something to get your groove back. But the other option is to leave and with him, it’s come to the place where son, you have got to leave. Because there there are no options. It’s a very small company. There’s no opportunity to change the environment. So for him, my advice is become Get the hell out of there as quickly as you can.

Unknown Speaker [39:35]
He’s it

David Ralph [39:36]
hard to be an entrepreneur like yourself, that left a very stable position by your own choice. Is it easier when you haven’t got a choice? But literally, something goes so badly wrong, but you can just step away with liberation? Did you ever have any half regrets? Yeah, sitting there and you think, Oh, I could have afforded this four years ago, but now I can’t

Hans Finzel [40:01]
I have never regretted taking the leap out of that job into being an entrepreneur, but you ask, Is it hard to be an entrepreneur? And I’d say, yes, it’s very hard to step out. Because, again, you have to rely on yourself. And I, I spent 32 years in that company that I was in the last 20 years the CEO so I had been in the, in the bosom of a very, you know, for 32 years, I got a paycheck twice a month from the same company. I know it’s kind of unheard of nowadays, but and that was very comfortable in and of itself. As I always knew, every two weeks I was going to get a paycheck regardless of what I did and how much I showed up or didn’t show up. When you leave all that the security of a guaranteed paycheck. That’s very hard. I think it’s very hard to become an entrepreneur and even if a person is and actually they I think if you’re forced out, it can be be more difficult because I know a lot of people have been fired or forced out or the company closed and shut down. But if they’re forced out or they’re fired, then they also go through the self doubt of why did I get fired? Why am I the one I must not be any good, you know, I lost my job. You have to go home to your spouse and tell them hey, I lost my job today. And I think that that’s a whole other dynamic. You’d have to get over because it wasn’t your choice.

David Ralph [41:35]
Well, where does the choice become your own event? You’ve been sacked. You’re sitting there on the sofa? You haven’t shaved for five days? And you think to yourself, enough is enough. what what what’s a good thing for people to do? Is it just anything about point or is there sit down and create a plan or find your passion what you think is the best thing to do?

Hans Finzel [42:00]
Well, I think you have two choices fundamentally, am I going to go out look for another job? Or am I going to create my own job? You know, my own company, my own thing. And I think those are two fundamental choices you have, and for many people, so I’m going to go out and look for another job so I can get another paycheck. Other people are going to say, Hey, I’m going to take this opportunity to create my dream. My best advice for that person says, I’m going to create My dream is to go out and get a part time job or a full time job. That’s not very demanding, because I find people have to have some income while they’re building their dream. If you have a family, you have obligations. Like my son, he says, I Dad, I don’t have any savings. I have three children. My wife doesn’t work. I have to keep working till I find something else. So for many entrepreneurs, David and you know this in the whole podcasting world, we always tell people You know, try to keep your day job as long as your you can while you’re building your dream job. And so sometimes if you’re sacked, you need to find something temporary, to bring in the money while you’re building your dream job.

David Ralph [43:13]
Yeah, that’s why we call it this slide of faith. You work on something until that moment when you go, yeah, I’ve got enough here, I’ve got enough to cover me for a period of time, or at least pay the bills. And then you’ve got choices. Now we’re going to be bringing the show to an end soon. But it’s always wise to listen to the words of the late Steve Jobs who, who created the whole theme of this show. I’m not sure that he was aware, but he was going to do that when he spoke these words, but they’re hugely powerful. So we’re going to listen to him again, Steve Jobs.

Steve Jobs [43:44]
Of course, it was impossible to connect the dots looking forward when I was in college, but it was very, very clear looking backwards. 10 years later. Again, you can’t connect the dots looking forward, you can only connect them looking backwards. So you have to trust that that the dots will somehow connect in your future. You have to trust in something, your gut, destiny, life, karma, whatever. Because believing that the dots will connect down the road will give you the confidence to follow your heart, even when it leads you off the well worn path. And that will make all the difference.

David Ralph [44:19]
Does it make all the difference hands?

Hans Finzel [44:21]
Absolutely. I’m a huge, huge fan of Steven jobs and some of the things he said because he he was so big on talking about passion, you know, and following following your heart. And here’s a quote that I have in one of my newest books, from Steve Jobs that where he talked about don’t settle he said, Your work is going to fill a large part of your life. And the only way to be truly satisfied is to do the work you believe is great work. And the only way to do great work is to learn love what you do. If you haven’t found it yet, keep looking. Don’t settle. Love that.

David Ralph [45:08]
Yeah, it’s very profound, isn’t it? I wonder if he because he said a lot of things very quotable man, he was, I wonder if he spent time writing these things or he just sort of threw it out and he was just somebody that couldn’t actually say profound stuff.

Hans Finzel [45:22]
You know, I think he just naturally said profound things because that quote is from the book, you know, Steven jobs that which is I highly recommend that everybody the white book, and it seems like people quoted him, you know, he would just throw these things out and he was recorded a lot or, and, and in his speeches and things like that. I just think, gosh, he was a very exceptional person, by the way, a very tough person to work for, in many ways. A miserable boss, you know, he was very controlling. He didn’t have a lot of affirmation for people. He was brutal if you read his The story of his company and how he led it. However, people followed him and love working for him because of this passion factor.

David Ralph [46:10]
So So how would you class him on the the true leaders? Is he more a manager or leader? Is he a visionary? How would you sort of grasp Steve Jobs?

Hans Finzel [46:20]
I would say he was a massive visionary. That was his, he was a leader par excellence. He had a dream. And he changed, you know, seven industries. By his dream, you know, he changed the music. He saved the music industry. You know, people thought the I pod was gonna destroy the music industry. And in fact, it saved the music industry. You know, he changed the computer industry. He changed Of course now watch industry, one industry after another that came by visions, you know, he said My job as a leader is to figure out things that are not yet written on the page. That’s visionary leadership. And that’s what he did. He dreamed up things that were not yet on anybody’s page. And he was smart enough to surround him with the kind of people that can execute his dreams which every visionary needs those kinds of people.

David Ralph [47:26]
So what would your big dog be on that Join Up Dots timeline that he spoke about what what would be the sort of moment when you look back and you go, yeah, that was probably one of the key moments.

Hans Finzel [47:37]
I think is his statement. The only way to do great work is to love what you do. I have this I don’t know if you over in England, you have this company called Life is good. They make t shirts and now have a note of them that we might have. Anyway, it’s a great company here they make t shirts and baseball caps and but the name of the company is life is Good in their company slogan, which I won, I have one of their caps and they have their motto sewn inside the cap. So when you put it on your head, you read it and it says, Do what you like, like what you do. And about five years ago, I was going on a walk, I put that cap on and I looked at those words, and they pierced my heart. Those were the defining moments when the dots were connected. When I said I’m not doing either, I no longer am doing what I like, and I really don’t like what I do. I connected the dots and said I’m going to do something about it. I have to make a change.

David Ralph [48:40]
That’s that is profound, isn’t it? You become like Steve Jobs then you just see an item of clothing and it’s life changing.

Unknown Speaker [48:48]
Yes.

David Ralph [48:50]
is one of those things back when you’re ready for that message that message will come from from anywhere because I before I made the leap here, I used to watch movies and It was like they were just speaking to me, or I’d listen to songs and lines would jump out at me. And I think oh my god, yeah, I can see what they’re saying. Is it isn’t that kind of thing?

Hans Finzel [49:10]
I absolutely believe it is because I love movies. They speak to me lyrics from songs. throwaway comments that a good friend will tell you, in my case, it was a baseball cap and, and a slogan from a company changed my life. So yes, it can come from anywhere. You just have to be listening. And you have to have a heart that’s tuned in to listen to the messages.

David Ralph [49:35]
There you go listeners go out and start shopping at lunchtime, look around and look at older slogans out there and one of them might just be the changing point of your life. Well, this is the end of the show. Now hands and this is the part that we call the Sermon on the mic when I’m going to send you on a journey and this is a journey to take you back and speak one on one with your younger self. And if you could go back and speak to the young hands. What advice would you give them what age would you Choose where we’re gonna find out because I’m going to play the theme tune and when it fades you out. This is the Sermon on the mic.

Hans Finzel [50:31]
You know, I love this part of the show it up. I’ve had fun thinking about talking to my younger self because I haven’t thought about that kind of an idea in a long time. Also that music, actually was the music, the kind of music that I grew up with when I was a teenager. I have four thoughts that I would say to the younger hands. Never underestimate the power of education. Get as much as you can get it on the fly. I did get my master’s degree and my doctorate and I did my doctoral studies in the midst of while we were having four little children at our home, two of them twins. And Hans, I would say one thing that I think you did right is you got an education, and it opened up doors for you later in life that never would have opened up without that education. So you did a good job on that. Secondly, ons I would tell you, follow your heart. Don’t follow after money, follow after your heart. Don’t stay in a dead end job. Keep looking for and following what you’re passionate about. And get in touch with your heart. Sometimes haans your way too much in your head and not enough in your heart. Follow your heart. Another thing I thought about younger self, something else I think you did good and keep doing what you’re doing as it relates to your wife and your children. Spend time With your wives, spend time with your children don’t sacrifice your marriage and your family, for your career and I want you to know younger haans that it worked out great in that regard, years later. And finally haans I would say, take more risks. Don’t play it so safe. The sooner the better. Don’t be hampered by fears. You have a lot of fears, but most of your fears will never be realised because the word fear is really false expectations appearing real real. So take more risks. Those are the things fans I would say to you as a young man.

David Ralph [52:39]
How can our audience connect with you Hans?

Hans Finzel [52:43]
My website is Hans binzel.com. That’s h ans FINZ. El Hunstanton calm. Also, I’m the podcast or the leadership Answer Man on iTunes. So if you look for Han spins or leadership Answer Man on iTunes, you can Check out my podcast, which is just about teaching good principles of leadership, whether you’re a manager or a leader or you want to be I have shows just devoted to how to increase and improve your leadership skills. So consonantal, calm and the leadership answer, man.

David Ralph [53:18]
We will have all the links on the show notes. Thank you so much for spending time with us today, joining those dots. And please come back again, when you have more dots to join up because I do believe that by joining up the dots and connecting our paths is the best way to build our futures. Mr. Hans binzel. Thank you so much.

Hans Finzel [53:35]
I love being on your show. David. Thank you so much.

David Ralph [53:41]
Thanks for listening to today’s episode of Join Up Dots brought to you exclusively by podcast is mastery.com. The only resource that shows you how to create a show, build an income and still have time for the life that you love. Check out podcast is mastery.com now

Outro [54:00]
David doesn’t want you to become a fated version of the brilliant self you or wants to become. So he’s put together an amazing guide for you called the eight pieces of advice that every successful entrepreneur practices, including the two that changed his life. Head over to Join Up dots.com to download this amazing guide for free and we’ll see you tomorrow on Join Up Dots.