Welcome to the Steve Jobs based Join Up Dots Free Podcast Interview with Jonathan Van Keulen
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Introducing Jonathan Van Keulen
Todays guest joining us on the Join Up Dots free podcast interview is Mr Jonathan Van Keulen, a man who is driven to make a difference to the world.
A difference to all the people, and families that during their lives get touched by the illness cancer.
Leading up to 2014, our guest was leading a very different life to the one that he leads today.
Working for Wells Fargo as a private banker, his day was very much like most men in the world.
Wake up with the alarm clock, shave, put on a shirt and tie, kiss the family goodbye and go to work.
But what do you do when suddenly that routine is taken away from you?
What do you do when you end up wishing with all your heart, that you can just kiss your family again and again, as you might be losing the chance to do it for much longer.
Well Jonathan Van Keulen faced that prospect head on, as in 2014 he was diagnosed with a rare and serious form of cancer that is seen mostly in children.
How The Dots Joined Up For Jonathan
He was told that he had Osteosarcoma, and began with the support and love of his family to fight against it, by undertaking the necessary treatment needed.
But this is where, we get to on the Join Up Dots ideal time and time again.
When our guests are at the lowest point in their lives, the thing that they should be doing with their lives so often appear.
And whilst laying on the hospital bed, making a list of ways that he could make himself more comfortable during his extended stay, he thought “If these things would make me comfortable then what about all the other cancer victims?”
He had so many ideas about things he could do to make his stay more comfortable, along with his lovely wife he started a non profit, Cancer Can’t, with the mission to attempt to give these same comforts to as many people as we can.
So does he look back at his pre diagnosis life as one that needed a shake up to make him become truly alive?
And although terrible, and arduous, has the treatment and the cancer been a good thing that he is now glad that he went through?
Well let’s find out, as we bring onto the show to start joining up dots, as we discuss the words of Steve Jobs in today’s free podcast, with the one and only Jonathan Van Keulen
During the show we discussed such weighty topics with Jonathan such as:
How he now looks at every moment of his life, as if it is the most precious thing in the world, and treasures the moments he can spend with his family like never before.
Why he now feels that we should all go to the Doctors as soon as possible. Stop being tough men and go and get our concerns dealt with quickly.
Why he totally believes that the first thing you have to do is find a passion for the task, before you even start contemplating the first step to make that task become real.
How he can now see that his life changed when his Father first delivered a chowder to his hotel room……strange but true!
How starting a business or venture, is like stumbling around a strange hotel room with no light switch….you will bang into things, but still find your way to the door.
How To Connect With Jonathan Van Keulen
You can also check our extensive podcast archive by clicking here – enjoy
Full Transcription Of Jonathan Van Keulen Interview
David Ralph [0:00]
Today’s show is brought to you by podcasters mastery calm the premier online community teaching you to podcast like a pro. Check us out now. podcasters mastery.com
when we’re young, we have an amazing positive outlook about how great life is going to be. But somewhere along the line we forget to dream and end up settling. Join Up Dots features amazing people who refuse to give up and chose to go after their dreams. This is your blueprint for greatness. So here’s your host live from the back of his garden in the UK, David Ralph.
David Ralph [0:38]
Yes, hello, everybody. And how are we all how are we all in Join Up Dots land. I hope you’re right, because we have got a good show today. This is a guy who has got a real backstory and it’s gonna be one of those ones. Sometimes I start recording a show and I kind of know where it’s gonna go, you get a flavour of where the conversation is going to go. Today’s I really don’t know and I’ll be honest with you. It’s one of these ones that even when I was researching Introduction because I’m a family man, it kind of got me a little bit upset. So if I get a bit blobby, then Believe me, I’m still a real man anyway. Now he is a guest that is a man who is quite simply driven to make a difference to the world a difference to all the people and families, but during their lives get touched by the Jonas cancer. Now leading up to 2014. Our guest was leading a very different life to the one that he leads today. He was working for Wells Fargo as a private banker. And his day was, I imagine very much like most men in the world, wake up with the alarm clock, shave, put on a shirt and tie, kiss the family goodbye and go to work. But what do you do when suddenly that routine is taken away from you? What do you do when you will end up wishing with all your heart, but you can just kiss your family again and again as you might be losing the chance to do it for much longer? Well, our guests face that prospect head on as in 2014. He was diagnosed with a rare and serious form of cancer, but it’s seen mostly in children and with the support and love of his family, too. Fight against it, he undertook but necessary treatment needed. But this is where we get onto the Join Up Dots sort of ideal time and time again. When our guests have at the lowest point in their lives, the thing that they should be doing with their lives kind of magically appears somehow and whilst laying on the hospital bed, making a list of ways that he could make himself more comfortable during his extended study. He thought, if these things would make me comfortable, then what about all the other cancer victims, he had so many ideas about things he could do to make his day more comfortable? along with his lovely wife, he started a nonprofit, cancer calm with the mission to attempt to give the same comforts to as many people as he can. So does he look back at his pre diagnosis life as one that needed a shake up to make him become truly alive and although terrible and arduous as the treatment and the cancer being a good thing, but he’s now glad that he went through? Well, let’s find out as we bring onto the show to start Join Up Dots with the one and only Jonathan van keulen. How are you Jonathan?
Jonathan Van Keulen [2:59]
Great. Thank you, David.
David Ralph [3:00]
Oh, come on, Jonathan. That was the that was the most powerful motivational start. I’ve done. Come on, Mate. Okay. So how are you, Jonathan?
Jonathan Van Keulen [3:08]
I’m doing great. David, that was a great introduction. Thank you very much. It’s, it’s exciting to be on your show. I’ve listened to it listened to several of them. And it’s exciting to be on here. Say that that’s a bit more
David Ralph [3:17]
American. We like the whoop whoop, and all that kind of stuff that you Americans do. I’ve just had an afternoon of America. I’m not gonna talk about this. But I’ve just watched a film with Kevin Costner called draft day. Have you seen that?
Jonathan Van Keulen [3:28]
It’s on my DVR. It’s been on there for a couple months now. I’ve, since I’ve been out of the hospital bed. I’ve kind of stopped watching movies, but it’s in my it’s in my satellite recordings on meaning to watch it. I’ve heard great stuff about it. It’s a great film and I understood
David Ralph [3:41]
nothing coffee for two hours. I had not an idea what was going on. It seemed like a bunch of children bartering cards. I just couldn’t understand. That’s how you run your spool out over there. It was shocking.
Jonathan Van Keulen [3:56]
Yes, yeah. The NFL Draft Day is a little confusing, but it is Got a fun to watch and see everybody scrambling around to take players and they have no idea if they’re gonna be any talent at all.
David Ralph [4:05]
Yeah, it seems a bizarre way of operating. But yeah, but you know, that seems to be something that I suppose is the perfect segue has got a structure that can’t be denied now it’s not like draft day but I make it up as I go along. You seem to be really rocking and rolling with your, your nonprofit which we’re going to talk about and then obviously build up to it again. So cancer can’t How is it doing? Good, give us a flavour of the sort of the message it’s giving out to the world at the moment.
Jonathan Van Keulen [4:36]
Yeah, cancer cats doing great. We’re we’ve been around for about three or four months now we kind of kicked it off after the first of the new year and went through all of the paperwork and all that good stuff with our lovely IRS here. You know, a couple hundred page application and, and then wait, they cashed your check really quickly and then they make you wait as long as humanly possible to try and make you forget about it. So no, that’s good. Really great. We’re sending out the message that, you know, there’s a lot of terrible stuff that goes along with cancer. And if one of those things that we can help alleviate is having a little bit greater environment, a little bit more comforting environment, in the hospital or at home, or wherever that might be, that it can really help alleviate some of those terrible side effects of emo of cancer of the depression that goes along with that. And so that’s the message we’re sending out there. We’re raising money, we’re trying to remodel some hospital rooms. It’s been a great success so far for short of a lifespan has had so we’re just working hard to continue the success and that’s that’s where we’re at right now.
David Ralph [5:41]
And is it something as I touched on in the introduction, that you actually think to yourself is your life path is this something now but is more than a hobby? It’s more than a message to the world? It’s, it’s you and it is what you was put on this earth to do?
Jonathan Van Keulen [5:58]
Yeah, absolutely. It’s It’s kind of a two fold answer. Yes, I think that that’s really what we were putting my wife and I have always kind of said, you know, our life was so blessed before we had a really outstanding life. We got married young, we can talk about all that. But you were kind of always felt like there was there was something more there was something more that we’re supposed to do. We didn’t know what that was. And, and we tried different volunteer opportunities at churches and schools and, and it did nothing, nothing never felt like that was it. And then this cancer camp came along, or the cancer came along, and then that led into cancer cancer. So that’s kind of definitely we kind of feel like that’s both of our passion. Unfortunately, working in the nonprofit world doesn’t pay the bills really well. And so. So it’s one of those where cancer cancer is definitely our passion. We’re putting a lot of time and energy into it, but it also has to be it has to be both the primary project and a side project at the same time sometimes because we do have to also earn money to turn the lights on every day.
David Ralph [7:02]
So well. Yeah. So how’d you do that? Because obviously on Join Up Dots, we talk about a lot of businessmen, that struggle to make the first dollar when it is a business that is there to make profit. And what you’re doing is something in many ways is a lot more difficult. So how do you do that? How do you balance it all? so that it doesn’t take over your life? And you end up in a cardboard box under a bridge somewhere, providing race help for everyone, but ultimately letting yourselves down?
Jonathan Van Keulen [7:29]
Yeah, yeah. So the cancer can’t we’re not taking any money from it right now. Eventually, we could pay ourselves a little salary but But really, the IRS kind of frowns on making a whole lot of money on on raising money and taking donations and so So eventually, we can we can have some administrative income from that, but I’ll be going back to my job as a private mortgage banker, eventually, probably before the end of summer, and that’s here at a small bank called Washington Trust Bank here in Spokane. I was was at Wells Fargo for a long time and and now I’ll go back and do mortgages and now it’s kind of one of those you’ve got two passions or the nonprofit side of your life and the profit side of your life balancing the two of those is is going to be a challenge. But right now I don’t have to I’ve got a few more months of being able to just focus on cancer can’t and and also really focused on my family I lost a lot of time with them from from all the hospital time that I did, but but it’s it’s fun being at home with my boys and fun being at home with my wife and a lot of fun doing the cancer can’t and, and, and really rewarding. So,
David Ralph [8:34]
so So before we start taking you back on the journey, Are you clear with it now? Are you still battling
Jonathan Van Keulen [8:42]
at this point today? I’m clear. So back in March of this year, in March of 2015, I finished chemo and I did my last PET scan and CT scans of my entire body and they found no traces of cancer. So that was the great news then that’s obviously a big celebration, finished chemo big party at the hospital on our last day. And then and then enjoying life. But this type of cancer is called osteo sarcoma. And depending on who you ask and what the study is, it’s got a 30 to 50% chance of reoccurrence. And so we’ve got a lot of scans a lot of tests and a lot of years left before we’re really in the clear completely and never never really know if you’re all the way in the clear but but we’ve got another scan in June and every three months after that, so we’ll just keep hoping and praying that it never comes back to us
David Ralph [9:33]
that does that. Really spunk you up to move forward knowing knowing that ultimately you are going to keep on having those tests. Does that break you free from where most people are, but life is just gonna be indefinite in front of them and they can float along and they can just have their two weeks holiday and they’re really sort of limbo land. Do you sort of look at every moment as precious now which perhaps you may not have done beforehand?
Jonathan Van Keulen [9:59]
I Completely agree with what you’re saying? Yeah, it’s I gained a lot of perspective from, from the journey that we took through the cancer battle. I was a young businessman, I was fairly successful and, and now I kind of have to live three months at a time. You know, I was very much a planner. Everything I did was I want to retire early. So I’d save save every little bit that I could and you know, when we wouldn’t, we’d go on vacations, but we often wouldn’t bring the kids because we want to just kind of have a relaxing vacation and sometimes bringing a three and a five year old on vacation isn’t super relaxing. But we’ve, I’ve changed my perspective a lot. We went to Hawaii, brought my boys with us to Hawaii last month and just had such a great time just seeing them playing the waves and and you know, that was one of those things. That wasn’t a guaranteed thing to me. A year ago when I was told that I had cancer. I didn’t know if I’d have a leg didn’t know if I’d have a next year didn’t know if I’d have any of those things so and then scans every three months. If the cancer comes back, I don’t know if I had those again. So It really adds a lot of perspective makes you really cherish the days that you do have.
David Ralph [11:04]
And how did you get over that, Jonathan? And obviously, when you get that first news, and I suppose Actually, I’m gonna hold that question, when we think back a little bit, how did you make sure know that you weren’t well and started having the tests before they confirmed it?
Jonathan Van Keulen [11:20]
Yeah, I was at that I was not a gym rat, but I was at the gym just about every day. Usually on lunch breaks, I worked pretty close to the gym. So I’d walk over there and do some do some workouts. They just kind of started a new regimen and in involved a lot of leg exercises, and my knee just kind of stopped working at full capacity. I mean, it was it worked, but it just minor aches and pains in the knee all the time. And it wouldn’t bend all the way or not even close, maybe about halfway and that just kind of came on really suddenly. And so I thought maybe this is a side effect of the workouts I’ve added maybe I’m doing a little bit too much. And so I took about a month off from doing that. And it wasn’t getting a lot better. And at that time I was 29 years old. And I was thinking, Well, I’m a little too young for a knee not to get better. I didn’t, I’ve never had any major sports injury in the knee. So it’s not a recurring injury that’s happened and, and so I just just finally went to the doctor, and I thought about just going to physical therapy, and I thought, well, let’s just go to the orthopaedic doctor and, and let’s, let’s let them take a look at it and they took an X ray, and that X ray immediately showed you just a real dark shadow above my knee and and that kind of started the, the spiral of doctors appointments.
David Ralph [12:33]
And do you look back on it? Because as men, we are prone to not going to the doctors. And we will Yes. And I’ve got things going on with me that my wife keeps on saying you’ve got to go to the doctor, you can’t be bothered, I can’t be bothered. And do you look back on it now and think I should have gone a month earlier. I should have steam straight down now. Is your viewpoint different on that compared to most men now?
Jonathan Van Keulen [12:55]
Absolutely. Yeah. No and I wish I would have gone earlier but a month. From the stories I’ve heard from other people have had this cancer. It’s often a young man’s cancer, it’s, you know, 16 to 18 years old night. And I’ve heard stories of these kids waiting a year to go because their football players were wrestlers, or whatever it is. And so they’re just used to those pains all over their body. And so they, they kind of ignore them. And I did ignore it for a month and and I’m glad I didn’t ignore it any longer than I did. But But you also say I wish I would have gone sooner. So but it’s it is what it is. And it’s it’s we went when we did and we caught it really pretty early. And so it we just started a lot of heavy heavy treatments and surgery and all that kind of stuff at that time as soon as we could.
David Ralph [13:38]
So so you get the diagnosis. And I imagine you’re on your own now at the doctor’s surgery, and you’ve got to drive yourself home or did your wife go with you? How did you break the news to your wife and the family?
Jonathan Van Keulen [13:52]
Yeah, that was that was a tough day. The first appointments was was the dark shadow. You know, they they just saw that they said it’s probably A bone bruise or a bone cyst, it’s probably nothing 99.9% it’s not gonna be anything. And so I didn’t have the immense fear that we get later. But there was still that that chance and the doctors still, you know, they’re still that point one or whatever that percentage chance was that it was it might have been something. And so I was definitely scared at that point. And so yeah, I had to drive home and say, well, they couldn’t find anything in my knee, but they did find something on my femur, and that’s that we have more appointments. And he said, we’re going to order an MRI, and that MRI was another week or two later, and at when they called back about that MRI. They said, you’re going to want to bring your wife with you to the next appointment. And so it was
David Ralph [14:46]
more scary when they said yes,
Jonathan Van Keulen [14:49]
yes. And it was also scary just because the MRI here at the appointment at the doctor’s office, we did the MRI, they actually will let you take a CD home of the images. So I took that CD home and my wife and I opted in the computer and scrolled through the images, that MRI and it did not take a doctor, surgeon or radiologists to look at that and say this is not good. You could really see that that tumour, ultimately what became that tumour was really working throughout the femur and the femur was very much damaged already, and not medically trained at all. And I could tell that that was that was bad news. And then they said, you’re gonna want to bring your wife to the next appointment. And then it was a very scary time at that point. That was That was a tough road to go at that point.
David Ralph [15:34]
No, I can imagine. So how did you overcome but that tough road you were still going to work? You were doing the due you were being the dad, just with this sort of lingering in the background somehow.
Jonathan Van Keulen [15:46]
Yeah, that constant lingering that constant constant fear of cancer. We knew that it was probably cancer. We know it was a tumour at the very least we didn’t know if it was cancer or what it was but it was a tumour in my leg. And yeah, I had to keep going to work had to keep paying the bills I had to continue to do mortgages and, and work with my employees and partners and some of them knew what was going on. Some of them didn’t I kind of held it close to chest at that point because we didn’t know what it was. But it was very much it was a day to day battle to, to just put on a smile face and continue to go through the daily routines until we until we knew better what it was and what our road was what our ultimate year would bring what that what that all meant to us. And so so that was that was a month and a half of a lot of doctor’s appointments and and not knowing completely. And I don’t know if not knowing completely or when we did find out was worse because neither was good news. But finding out that it was a very bad cancer was also adding even more fear to the puzzle.
David Ralph [16:50]
And did you Well, I can imagine you You must have done there must have been a lot of thoughts going this is it. You know why me? I’m going early. I’ve got all my life ahead of me. Oh, god, this is this is bad news. What was Yeah, much of the victim mentality because you sound a very positive chap. And it sounds like if if anybody was going to get this cancer, you’re the chap together because you seem like you you you’ve got your faith and you’ve got your family and you got a positive outlook. Did you go into dark side where it was a woman?
Jonathan Van Keulen [17:24]
I didn’t go into a dark side right away. I mean, we were we were scared and we were sad. I would say that but but we never I don’t think either my wife or I ever went to the Why me? Or, or why does God do this or those kind of questions that often get a good question.
I don’t think we ever went to that I’m wanting to especially not
David Ralph [17:44]
right away because that’s normal, isn’t it to do that?
Jonathan Van Keulen [17:47]
I think so. Yeah, you definitely you question Why me? Why does this happen? Why do such terrible things happen to good people? You know, we’re, we’re good people. We give money to charity. You know, we didn’t go through any of that. kind of stuff. We just we knew what cancer was, we knew it’s a terrible thing. And we know it’s completely bad luck. There’s nothing we could have done to prevent it. There’s nothing we could have done differently in our lives to, to not have it happen. But there was that fear certainly, of of my life is could be much shorter. And it still could be even even to this day. I still don’t know that. But none of us know that. I mean, we all get in a car every day, we all go to work every day. We it is when none of us know how much time we have. And so the cancer has added that perspective for me, I guess I you certainly have immortal thoughts when you’re what you don’t have any mortality thoughts? I guess when you’re when you’re that age, when you’re 2930 years. 30 years old. You don’t even ever think about being mortal. You probably I don’t even know when you start thinking about that. But I would think 60s or 70s Oh, no,
David Ralph [18:50]
sir. I’m often 45 and I’m all right. And I’ll be honest with you, a lot of me. Thanks, God. I might have had more than I’ve got left and actually on my 45th Birthday my son came in in the morning, anyone Happy Birthday Dad? Do you know you probably had more than you’ve got left, which isn’t a great thing to say on your birthday, but he’s correct. It’s kind of true as well. So even at my 45, I’m very aware of a bloody arrow, I’ve got to get going that, you know, I’ve got to start moving. I can’t float along like I did in my 20s and my 30s It’s now or never kind of thing. So I think yes, I think it’s a good message to have though, isn’t it? And I suppose that’s what the show is all about. Every day we talk to people who have made a decision to get off that sofa and go and do something and yes, it’s kind of being forced on you. But you were already looking for it when you you were already looking for that thing that was going to fulfil you away from work.
Jonathan Van Keulen [19:47]
Yes, yeah. We definitely were looking for whatever that was in our life. And and the cancer certainly out of that perspective and it certainly made us appreciate our family, our life. Our Everything that we have a lot more, and it made us appreciate the gift we’re able to give back to people a lot more via cancer can’t. And so you feel it’s
Unknown Speaker [20:08]
a gift to you?
Jonathan Van Keulen [20:10]
At times, yeah. You know, at times when when I’ve got 30 inches of titanium in my leg that aches and I’ve got a leg that’s an inch shorter than it supposed to be and the other side hurts Now, sometimes you you want to give the gift back, but you can’t. And so that gift, though was perspective for us. And so we do appreciate the everyday so much more. And at least
David Ralph [20:33]
only a leg shorter. It could be a lot worse for a man couldn’t it?
Jonathan Van Keulen [20:37]
Yeah, absolutely. I still have a leg I’ve still got all the way down to the foot. So it’s just it’s just a bit shorter than it used to be. So I’m a little lopsided now but that’s okay, we can do things about that and and it’s just an everyday Battle of getting through the walking and all that kind of stuff.
David Ralph [20:50]
But standing on the side of mountains I imagine you are now
Jonathan Van Keulen [20:53]
it’s very good for the beaches and mountains and then that kind of stuff for flat grounds like your house. It’s not very good yet. Oh well.
David Ralph [21:00]
So So when you’re in hospital, obviously you were in there for quite a time. And the thing that I’m interested in is that you’ve got the added stress of sort of medical bills and all that kind of stuff in the United Kingdom is pretty much done for free. We have the National Health Service and if anything’s really bad, you get wisdom and it’s all free for you. In America, it’s very different. Yeah, did that add to your stress where there are bills to be paid and medical issues and all that kind of stuff which quite frankly, when you’re ill is the last thing that you want.
Jonathan Van Keulen [21:32]
It is the last thing that you want to think about. We didn’t have to think too much about it. We we’ve been successful financially. So we had we had some savings we had we had a lot of family that was helping us out and and in America, we have the out of pocket maximum. So you know, we met that basically with the first appointment 4000 $5,000 whatever that is, and so, so you know, you just immediately have to write that check and and move on with that. We had to go nine days. With no income, which which was probably the scarier part, or the harder part, and again, we had a lot of people helping us. We had some savings we had, we were able to make it through that 90 days. And then we had Long Term Disability Insurance kick in. So we’ve we’ve had income since then. And so that income was enough to supplement what I was making. And so we didn’t have, we didn’t have to stress but I’ve talked to a lot of people in the hospitals, people I’ve met my age, elder that have no income, and they didn’t have the money to pay that maximum out of pocket. And they didn’t have the financial resources. And so they’ve got to go through this battle. They can’t be denied care. So they’ll continue to get the care but at the end of this thing, they’ve got hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical bills. My mind was probably over a million dollars in medical bills total. And so luckily, I had the insurance to pay all that but not everybody did. And not everybody does have the finances to pay some of that.
David Ralph [22:53]
So it’s not something in the long term that you would think that cancer can’t might be out to sort out For these people or is that
Jonathan Van Keulen [23:01]
yeah is something that would ya know, that is something that we’re considering adding to the cancer camp that’s that’s a huge bite to take on though is paying that people’s medical bills and and how that all works and how much money do you need to raise to be able to pay people’s medical bills I mean millions of dollars a year needs to be raised to pay a couple people’s medical bills and so that’ll kind of be a last step for cancer can’t but but it is something that we’re trying to figure out and maybe it’s just help people with the medical side of getting wheelchairs or getting walkers or pumps for their home and, you know, some of those can be done at relatively inexpensive cost and those medical supplies or the prescription services and stuff like that it can be can be a feasible goal for cancer can’t right away but but the overall medical bill is it’s such a mess over here anyways, that I don’t know. I don’t know how we’re going to tackle that problem.
David Ralph [23:52]
Well, let’s play some words now that will seamlessly move us into the next stage of the creation of cancer calm and The deep the journey that you went through while she was in hospital, which I can imagine a lot of it would be you on your own in a room, your family’s gone home, and it’s just you and your faults. So this is Jim Carrey.
Jim Carrey [24:12]
My father could have been a great comedian, but he didn’t believe that that was possible for him. And so he made a conservative choice. Instead, he got a safe job as an accountant. And when I was 12 years old, he was let go from that safe job. And our family had to do whatever we could to survive. I learned many great lessons from my father, not the least of which was that you can fail at what you don’t want. So you might as well take a chance on doing what you love.
David Ralph [24:39]
Now, obviously, you have taken a chance because you are building this organisation but isn’t going to provide profit to you but it takes an awful lot of your time. So do you buy into the words that Jim says is that how you’ve got to go about just giving it a go?
Jonathan Van Keulen [24:57]
Absolutely. Yeah, it’s we knew that We wanted this, which means other people wanted this. A lot of people want this, a lot of people need help going through this cancer battle. And if it’s something that we can do, we can put energy and effort into and, and pay it back to other people that have to go through this cancer battle. We were helped a lot by a lot of fam family and friends Excuse me. And so if we can raise some money and help other people’s lives be a little bit better, even if it’s just a little bit of money and just help a few people or if it’s a lot of money and help a lot of people, whatever we can do, it’s it’s going to be positive, and it’s going to be rewarding for us and, and it’s going to help people and that’s ultimately what it is about is just helping people.
David Ralph [25:39]
So how do you stop basic? Yep, you get this idea. And you’re sitting there with your wife, and you said, well, I’ve been in bed for 70 days I’ve had this idea for and obviously, you’ve got to get the URL, you’ve got to get the website, you’ve got to get sponsorship. And I’ve seen that your bank is sponsoring you which is which is remarkable and very good of them. So how do you get about it for somebody who is looking to take the entrepreneurial route, whether it’s for nonprofit or profit, what’s the first thing you need to do to start moving these things forward?
Jonathan Van Keulen [26:11]
Find it find a passion is the first thing you need to do, you have to find something that you really care about. Because if you don’t, if you’re just looking for an entrepreneurial idea, but you’re not passionate about it, it’s kind of you’re not gonna put any energy and effort into it. And so this was something that we the first step was was finding a need finding a passion and, and that came because I was in the hospital for at the time when it came around, I think 60 or 70 days, not in a row, but it was it was five days in and then about two or three days at home, and then another four or five days in and then two or three days at home. And it was months of that and along with the surgery was 10 days in the hospital from the surgery. And so the idea came about for me was I was sitting in there and my dad had brought me some clam chowder, and my dad, it was 10 o’clock in the morning way too early for clam chowder, so I asked them nurses to hold on to it for me. And they were nice enough to do that, put my name on it and I was hungry around lunchtime. And I called the nurse and said, Hey, can you bring that clam chowder? warm it up a little bit for me. And she was more than happy to do that. But it took two hours. And well,
David Ralph [27:17]
I wouldn’t complain, I would have complained.
Jonathan Van Keulen [27:21]
Yeah, if it was a restaurant, you certainly do complain because they’re waitresses and waiters and cooks and that’s their job, but she’s a nurse. She has people that she’s administering medicine for and she has people that she’s taken care of that are sick and and I’m Ill also because I’m getting chemotherapy medicines, but my food was not at the top of her priority list and I don’t and I don’t fault her at all for that. How do you
David Ralph [27:41]
know that she didn’t do that classic waiter thing and thinking oh my god, this this this patient is driving me mad and, and, and spitting in your child or something?
Jonathan Van Keulen [27:49]
Yeah, she certainly could have been and but but I I saw that and I said, Well, there’s a really simple solution. These rooms are plenty big enough to put a mini fridge and it Tiny microwave in, and then I can do it myself when I’m hungry. And I can also eat in the middle of the night if I’m hungry. And I can keep some cheese and crackers in the room and keep it fresh and fruit, or whatever it is that that sounds good to you. And when you’re on chemotherapy, and when you’re a cancer patient, you don’t know what’s gonna sound good, and you don’t know when it’s gonna sound good. And so having a small arsenal of some snacks and some food in your own room that you don’t have to wait an hour or two for a nurse to get. That’s a really simple solution. There was 2020 oncology rooms and I said, Well, fridge and a microwave in each room is two or 300 bucks we’re looking at isn’t a Hal $5,000 you know, having a
David Ralph [28:37]
cop come they say no, you know, doing that having a barbecue in your room? Yeah,
Jonathan Van Keulen [28:43]
yeah. So we probably shouldn’t put, you know, propane gas tanks and barbecues in the rooms. But, but a simple solution is a fridge and a microwave. Just let me warm up my own clam chowder, so I don’t have to wait for it. So that’s where the idea was born. So
David Ralph [28:58]
that was actually the first step that it wasn’t my that was the step cushions or anything? It was that?
Jonathan Van Keulen [29:03]
Yeah, yeah, that was the first step is fridges and microwaves I’m hungry. I want I want pepperoni and cheese for a snack. I don’t want to go down to the cafeteria and get a day old omelette. So it was just a really simple solution. I said, Well, well, let’s put fridges and microwaves in there. It’s $5,000 I can find $5,000 from donate donors in a week. That’s no big deal. Oh, I could
David Ralph [29:25]
do it for much less than that. $5,000
Jonathan Van Keulen [29:29]
Well, 2020 fridges and 20 microwaves is $200 you know 250 Oh,
David Ralph [29:34]
no one each. I thought you were saying Whoa, not one. Not even one three was $5,000 I was shocked. No,
Jonathan Van Keulen [29:41]
no, no, we’re not we’re not that marked up over here. But you want to scam here. There’s a scam going yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so so that was a simple solution. And and then my designer wife, who you know, we built a house together a few years ago and and I just needed some walls and a roof and it turned into more than that and So and so did the cancer can so to the rooms, it turned into much more than frigerators and a microwave it turned into, she’s the one having to sit in these awful, awful chairs that are in the room for spouses and for company. They’re the straight up wood chairs. And so she’s sitting there for all these days, she was there every day with me for seven or eight or nine hours while the kids were at home or at school and, and so she, she said, Well, there needs to be chairs for people to sit. And these rooms are horribly ugly. They’re they’re brown on Brown. And so she’s you know, the designer in her said, well, let’s make them fun. Let’s make them colourful. There’s a children’s hospital across the walkway and it’s got bright blue. Well let’s put some colour in these rooms. This is this is silly to have everything be brown with an accent and brown. And so so she said let’s get paint. And the artwork in the rooms was at least 20 years old. And they were tiny little pictures and it was you know, a Finch on a on a pine cone or something. It was just horrible artwork. Just Nothing was uplifting at all. And so she you know, again we said well, how much how much would it be to put some artwork in these rooms and so so that’s where this this idea just kind of continued to steamroll and and it went beyond fridges and microwaves and it went beyond just just a room or to it. We said well let’s help everybody let’s let’s do this in all the rooms on this whole floor there’s plenty oncology rooms. There’s patients that come through there two or three days they serve almost 3000 patients a year in this in this hospital and those 20 rooms and so let’s let’s help all of them let’s let’s do something that we can we can really look back on and put our name on and be proud of and, and and everybody can be more comfortable.
David Ralph [31:38]
And do you think that idea actually helped you sort of battle through because you suddenly have a focus and a drive for something didn’t help with your treatment?
Jonathan Van Keulen [31:47]
Very much. Yeah. When that’s when that before that I was getting very depressed. As you can imagine I’d spent 6070 days in the hospital and, and I was sick all the time and depression started. To set it was the first time that depression really set in for me was back in November. And then this idea came about and we kind of we kind of had something to do, we had something to look forward to. We stopped watching the TV all the time and watching so many episodes of logging in the swamp logging and Duck Dynasty and all those shows that you just start turning on. And and it just starts, you watch rerun after rerun of daytime television, which is just not good. And so, so we finally had something to look forward to we had we had a goal we had something to do. And so we started to do the research and we started to talk to our friend who was an attorney and said, Well, how do we go about this? How do we how do we start a nonprofit started to read all the IRS requirements, we just we had something to do I had something to make my brain work again had been months of not working. I had been off work for six months at that point or so and, and I finally had something to focus on. That was in my qualifications and, and so it was good. It helped us get through that. Next that last three or four months of the battle, that was that was the hardest part of the battle. But it gave us a focus that gave us a positive experience, I
David Ralph [33:08]
guess. And to emphasise it for the listeners out there when you had this idea, you literally didn’t have a clue how to do it. You started from scratch?
Jonathan Van Keulen [33:18]
None. None. I I could have probably opened a small business because I have a business degree. But the nonprofit world was totally outside my expertise totally outside my realm of understanding. I don’t have any customers that had them. I didn’t I, in my job. I see a lot of tax returns. I talked to a lot of attorneys. But the nonprofit world was totally totally new to me. We knew we needed to raise money, but how do you go about that? How do how does somebody give you money and it be tax deductible? How does? How does? What do you do if you have money left over and you get to keep it? No, because it’s a nonprofit. So you’ve got to give it away. How do you Who do you give it to? That was all information we had to learn. We had to find that. It’s all out there. All the information is out there. The internet’s on one wonderful thing. And we had a we had a friend who was an attorney that helped us a lot also. But you have to doesn’t matter if you know it or not the information is out there. You have to go find it if it’s something you’re passionate about, find the information. And there
David Ralph [34:13]
literally is no stumbling blocks for people, isn’t it when people listen to these shows, and they go, Oh, it’s all right for Jonathan. Oh, it’s all at the David. Oh, it’s all right. The whoever, literally when we make that decision to do something, we are the biggest bunch of idiots known to man because more often than not, we go into an area that we’ve got no idea about. And you stumble around, don’t you and you ask questions and you read and you find things out and you just keep on learning and learning. And that passion becomes a by ease inside of you. But it still takes you back to the very first decision when you think how do I do this? I’ve got no idea. I just know I want to try something.
Jonathan Van Keulen [34:51]
Yes. Oh, the frustration level I’m sure you know, it reaches reaches incredible heights. The frustration does because you go to one website or you talk to one person They tell you, you got to do this first and then you go to them and they said, No, you have to do this first and, and so there’s lots of stumbles, there’s lots of things you have to learn. There’s lots of information out there. And, and the sometimes the frustration gets so high, you just are so determined to beat the system, that you just continue to stumble until you find the starting point. And the starting point, whatever it is, for whatever the project is, can be found. It’s just a matter of finding it stumbling around and finding it into and asking the question until you get the answers, and then moving forward that passion because that passion is what started it. And the frustration with whatever it is, is sometimes what continues it. It’s like, isn’t it I suppose you’re in a strange hotel room and you wake up in the middle of night and you want to go toilet, and you can’t find the light switch. And so you stumble around the room until you find the
David Ralph [35:47]
toilet and you you make it happen. You get there and you sort it all out. And I think that’s very much true in the entrepreneurial room. It’s a strange analogy. I know but that’s how my brain is perfect,
Jonathan Van Keulen [35:56]
actually. But um,
David Ralph [35:58]
that’s it isn’t it useful. And you just put your hands out and you touch walls and you touch whatever and some things feel good and some things don’t. And then little by little as the light comes up, you realise that you’ve learned the geography of the room for the first point. And then you have to sort of find the next room and start moving away into other areas. And I look back on it now and I don’t know if you find these gentlemen, but certainly with what I’m doing, because I’ve now done it I look back on it and go God, I could have done it so much quicker. But of course you can’t because you don’t know these things. And that’s why it takes you so long and that’s what stops them so many people in their tracks. They’re not willing to find the toilet.
Jonathan Van Keulen [36:37]
You Yes, absolutely. Yeah. People I think people quit on on their project or on their dream far before they even got started. Because the first step is so hard. It’s so hard to find that light switch. It’s so far so hard to find that that room that you’re looking for that person that can give you that answer. But but they’re out there that answers out there, the light switches on the wall, you just have to find it stumble around and find it because it’s there. It’s just it’s hard not nothing’s gonna be easy but nothing worth doing is easy. So
David Ralph [37:06]
anything myself what’s the worst that can happen I
Jonathan Van Keulen [37:09]
write you’ve got a suitcase, new clothes, try again.
David Ralph [37:12]
Absolutely, you can just change clothes and away you go. I’m gonna play some words now that really sort of move us to the, to the last quarter of the conversation and we are going to go back and actually talk about your treatment because I know we’ve sold a breezed over it somewhat, but it is something that’s worthwhile bringing up into the conversation. But this is Oprah Winfrey,
Unknown Speaker [37:31]
the way through the challenge is to get still and ask yourself, what is the next right move? not think about, Oh, I got all of this too. But what is the next right move? And then from that space, make the next right move and the next right move and not to be overwhelmed by it because you know, your life is bigger than that one moment. You know, you’re not defined by what somebody says is a failure for you because Failure is just there to point you in a different direction.
David Ralph [38:03]
So how do you decide the first right move? I suppose How do you decide what you need to do when you really haven’t got a clue right at the very beginning?
Jonathan Van Keulen [38:13]
You just that’s a great question. Um, I think you just, you just have to look back at what the what the reason was why did you start this so what’s what’s the best move first? Is it is it to just start telling people about it, just be excited about it. And that’s what we were we were just excited about cancer camp and about the nonprofit and and generating that excitement for us was the first move and and then people were excited for us and people started to lend to their assistance, lend their expertise, and we had a lot of information coming in and then that that next move for us was was get the IRS involved and get get the paperwork for the business involved and, and now and now we’re kind of at a crossroads. What’s the next move for us? We’ve started to raise money we’ve raised about $50,000. Our goal is 100,000 And we have a great big event coming up and we know that we’re going to hit that goal but we know what all that money is going to but now the question that we’re starting to get is well what’s next? what’s what’s next for cancer can’t and and that’s a great question and we kind of had to kick the can around a little bit and look at our toes and say, Well, what is next?
David Ralph [39:18]
And for that but but how do you decide that when it’s such a blank canvas, but literally you could go in any direction How do you not just stand there looking around saying all looks good?
Jonathan Van Keulen [39:29]
Yeah, and it all does look good and for us the next move for us was how can we help the most people with the least amount of money and so you know, you can give you can get for us it was we said well we can give a family you know a trip you know some there’s there’s there’s nonprofits out there for cancer patients and stuff that that fulfil a dream for them, you know, send them on a trip and and those are great and there’s a great place for those but we’re seeing we look at that and we say well that’s a lot of money to send one family on one trip. How so are not Extra move was how can we do that? But for a lot of people and not spend a whole bunch of money on one family, how can we spend a whole bunch of money and help a whole bunch of families? And so that’s that’s what ultimately came down to what our next move was. That’s what made our decision for us. And I know that’s different for everybody.
David Ralph [40:17]
And on a real personal level will be the real sort of legacy as opposed is to your two little lads, isn’t it? They’re gonna see Mum and Dad. Yes, doing stuff and getting out there and that’s got a sort of hit home somehow. Maybe they’re too young at the moment, but they will start getting that vibe of I can do anything
Jonathan Van Keulen [40:36]
yeah, that’s that’s what we’re trying to teach them and and we’re trying to convey that message and you know, they’re not they’re not always excited when we have to leave for meetings for cancer Can’t you know my wife and I go together to the hospital for a half a meeting to talk to the hospital about projects that we’re going to help them with and, and they’ve got to go to the nanny’s house and they’re not excited about that. But we you know, we, we remind them well, Mom and Dad and you guys are doing this to help other families, other families that are are sick and other families that are struggling and that’s the message we’re conveying to our two boys and, and, and I and they get it sometimes. And sometimes they just don’t want us to leave. And and I understand that as a three and a five year old, especially when dad was gone so much that they they just want me to be home all the time. But we’re conveying that message that they can do anything. They can help people and it feels good to, to help people and to be successful. It’s a good thing. It’s nothing to be afraid of.
David Ralph [41:24]
So just sort of leading us on to the last part. Yeah, we’ll take you back to that hotel room. how rough was the treatment because I had a lady on the show, called Margaret Cahill and she had leukaemia and I didn’t have a clue that more people die from chemotherapy then actually, you know, get through it. That’s the real rough part of it. I had no idea. I just thought you had chemotherapy and that’s all almost makes it better. So how rough was it for you?
Jonathan Van Keulen [41:55]
Yeah, she’s she’s absolutely right there. We didn’t know this either. We went in variable Blind where, you know, we had no idea about chemotherapy, we thought it caused a little bit of nausea and made you tired. And so, you know, when we went into it, I didn’t know what to expect, but I thought I can I can handle a little bit of nausea and being tired for nine months. That’s not that bad. But But she’s right more people actually die of the side effects of chemo than often the cancer itself. And so, so that when we learned that that was that wasn’t a good statistic to read before getting chemo and so, but going into it, it was scary going through it, it was hard, you’re sick a lot. You have a lot of terrible terrible side effects that I won’t share with the listeners because they’re kind of gruesome, and so they’re awful. There. It truly is. They truly take every part of your body as far down as they can possibly take it without killing you and and beat you up so much that there’s nothing less left live and that’s what kills the cancer. But it kills a lot of other things in your body. I still, I’m two months out of chemo and I still can barely feel my hand my hands and feet just because it damaged the nerves in my hands and feet. So, so it, you don’t realise it but it infects every part of your body it beats you up from the inside out and it’s it’s a very hard thing to go through.
David Ralph [43:11]
But for the for the people out there that maybe have these concerns and they’re frightened to go to the doctor, you would say go and still undertake it, get get through it and get the support. Absolutely. You get the passion, but still go for it, even though it is more than rough.
Jonathan Van Keulen [43:29]
It is more than rough, but it’s it’s worth it. I mean, today I’m cancer free. So that’s how long I’ll be cancer free. I don’t know, maybe maybe forever, maybe not. But today, I’m cancer free. So going through that nine month battle if it bought me four or five months of health. Great. I get four or five outstanding months with my boys and I will appreciate those four or five months, a lot more than I would have if I would have never gone through this and if I wouldn’t have made that battle and been successful through that battle of chemo and cancer. So yeah. It’s worth it. And maybe you get a lifetime, maybe the cancer never comes back. But again, you can look back and say I battled cancer. I went through the chemo. And now I’ve got a lifetime to appreciate every day. And if I didn’t go through that cancer, and I didn’t go through that chemo, I wouldn’t appreciate the healthy days near as much as I do today, which is the whole theme of the show. When you look back in you Join Up Dots, as Steve Jobs said, and you’re going to hear him in a moment. It’s all those moments in your life actually build up to something worthwhile. It’s those choices that you make. It says Oprah says as well there’s there’s no failure. It’s just you making decisions. Some right some wrong, but more often than not, you find the right place you find the place but is right for you. Did you bind to that? Yes, yes, absolutely. Yeah, you just go through it and you find that place and you find whatever makes you comfortable or whatever, whatever gives you passion to live forward and you just have to find that and just choose to find Focus on on that and not focus on all the negative.
David Ralph [45:02]
Well, let’s play the words from the man himself. He is the man who created the whole show. He’s no longer with us. But his words are, these are Steve Jobs.
Steve Jobs [45:11]
Of course, it was impossible to connect the dots looking forward when I was in college. But it was very, very clear looking backwards 10 years later. Again, you can’t connect the dots looking forward, you can only connect them looking backwards. So you have to trust that the dots will somehow connect in your future. You have to trust in something, your gut, destiny, life, karma, whatever. Because believing that the dots will connect down the road will give you the confidence to follow your heart, even when it leads you off the well worn path.
Unknown Speaker [45:43]
And that will make all the difference.
David Ralph [45:46]
So what would you be dotting your life but when you look back on everything you’ve gone through what would be the sort of moment that you go? Yeah, well, that that was really it when Jonathan became who he was supposed to be.
Jonathan Van Keulen [46:01]
For me, it was it was it was way before cancer actually it was when I was just finishing college, I was working as a banker at Wells Fargo, just just a new accounts banker doing checking and savings accounts. And and I got moved to the downtown branch. And so I was not real happy about that, because now I had to pay for parking at 20 bucks a day or whatever it was, and not happy about having to, you know, a different commute because my other branch I was out was two blocks away and, and so I wasn’t real happy. But in the first couple of weeks I met what would become my partner at work and, and, and the and the the dot that was connected there. Eventually as I look back at it was it’s important to meet the important people and everybody’s important, but whatever your goal is, find those people seek them out and meet them and network with them and talk to them. And eventually that became a partnership for me and eventually that became being very successful because of his mentors. And his friendship. And now we’re partners. We’ve been working together for seven years as a mortgage team, and we’re very successful. And so that was the dot that was that that was the event that really meeting him and moving to that downtown branch and and just accepting what it was ultimately became the reason I was very successful. And the reason that I was able to make it through the cancer battle because I because I had great friends and I had and I had that now that knowledge and that expertise and in the finance world and so I, I knew it was possible to open cancer can because it’s possible to open businesses. So it was it was that event it was that person it was that that job, and that promotion eventually is what ultimately came to
really, really be the the event I would say.
David Ralph [47:48]
So at the end of the show, we will ask how our audience can connect with you on social media, but I think it’s right at this moment to ask a question. For the listeners out there. How can they help you More than just connecting Well, what would be a good thing for them to do for cancer calm?
Jonathan Van Keulen [48:06]
Yeah, we’re always accepting donations. So if you if your listeners want to donate we’re we’re certainly looking for donations but
David Ralph [48:13]
not what would be a good donation.
Jonathan Van Keulen [48:16]
Yeah, right now, we’re doing an event in September and we’re in Spokane, Washington. So for anybody that’s even remotely local to that come support the event. If you can be there in person, great if you can’t be we’re looking for auction items. We’re looking for rounds of golf or condos in Hawaii. If somebody wants to donate a vacation condo for a week that we can put in an auction package. All those auction packages, all those items would would raise a lot of money for cancer, cancer and cancer can’t we’ll pass that money on to the hospital and help remodel rooms and we’ll pass it on to oncology patients. And we’re not taking a nickel out of cancer cancer you can if you donate $1 $1 is going right back out and going into the into the oncology world. And so we’re not we’re not taking any money from it we have almost no administrative costs. So this is a great charity to donate to. It’s a great event it’s a great foundation. We’re we’re hoping to be very successful we’re working very hard at raising as much money as we can so that we can support people for years to come. We’ve got this one project this year of the doing the oncology rooms But beyond that, we want to start helping individual oncology patients with with medical supplies with whatever transportation they need to doctor’s appointments A lot of people don’t have that I wasn’t able to drive for six months so there are people out there that need they just need a ride to the doctor and so they’re where they need people to pick up medicine for him so there’s so much we can do and we’re serving almost the entire state of Washington is our goal and so so that’s what we need is we need donations and you can find us online at cancer can’t dot info www Cancer Cancer dot info. You can find us on Facebook cancer can’t and and feel free to connect with us or my cell phone numbers on our website. So our phone numbers or emails, you can call us. And if you want to talk to us, or if you just want to talk and find out what the battle is all about, I’m more than happy to communicate via email, or however people want to talk if they want to understand more than I’m more than happy to share more of
David Ralph [50:16]
the story. Brilliant stuff, brilliant stuff. Well, this leads us to the end of the show, Jonathan, and this is the part when I’m gonna send you on a journey. And this is the bit that we call a sermon on the mic when I send you back in time to have a one on one with your younger self. And if you could go back in time and speak to the young Jonathan, what age would you choose and what advice would you give? Well, we’re going to find out because I’m going to play the theme tune and when it fade, you’re up. This is the Sermon on the mic
Unknown Speaker [50:48]
with the best bit of the show,
Unknown Speaker [50:55]
Jonathan Van Keulen [51:03]
Hey, little Jonathan. It’s big Jonathan, you’re 11 years old now you’re getting ready to change schools from a small Catholic school to a public school and a still a very small town. But, but it’s gonna be challenging. And what I’d like to tell you now looking back at those years and those elementary years, those middle years and all the way through college is don’t be afraid to connect with people find friends. Don’t be afraid to meet people and and stay connected with them. That’s something that you still trust still still battle with Jonathan is, is you need to be connected. You need to meet people. That’s what caused your success later in life and will hopefully continue to help you be successful today is is networking meeting people. Don’t be afraid of public situations. Don’t be afraid of starting conversations. Just be out there be you and and know that greatness isn’t to come and continue to meet people and continue to help people, there’s no better feeling than helping people.
David Ralph [52:04]
Jonathan, just before we let you go, I know you’ve already done it. But get your social media out there again. So just make it clear to all the listeners how they can connect with you.
Jonathan Van Keulen [52:14]
Yeah, www dot cancer can’t that’s ca n, CR er, can’t see a NT dot info I nfo that’s our website, or on Facebook cancer can’t on Facebook. Please connect with us. Go find us like our page, send us a message, send us an email, anything you want to connect with us. We appreciate the connections. It’s it’s great to know that there are people out there that are willing to support the cancer cause it’s cancer, something that ends up touching everybody in their life, whether it’s young old cancer is something that everybody will run into. And it’s such a terrible disease, that we just want to make it comfortable for people. So connect with us send us a message, even if it’s just a message wanting to help us with Anything I mean, it’s just kind words, send us a message. We appreciate everything that people do out there.
David Ralph [53:05]
Jonathan, thank you so much for spending time with us today, joining up those dots. And please come back again when you have more dots to join up because I do believe that by joining up the dots and connecting our pasts is the best way to build our futures. Jonathan, thank you so much.
Jonathan Van Keulen [53:19]
Thank you, David.
David Ralph [53:22]
Thanks for listening to today’s episode of Join Up Dots brought to you exclusively by podcasters mastery.com. The only resource that shows you how to create a show, build an income and still have time for the life that you love. Check out podcasters mastery.com. Now,
David doesn’t want you to become a faded version of the brilliant self you or wants to become. So he’s put together an amazing guide for you called the eight pieces of advice that every successful entrepreneur practices, including the two that changed his life, head over to Join Up dots.com to download this amazing guide for free and will See you tomorrow on Join Up Dots.