Candace Rose Rardon Joins Us On the Steve Jobs Inspired Join Up Dots Podcast
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Introducing Candace Rose Rardon
Candace Rose Rardon is todays guest joining us on the Steve Jobs inspired Join Up Dots podcast.
It’s with great delight that I get to speak to her as she was first introduced me to a guest who appeared way back on episode 15 of the show Mike Sowden.
After the show without hesitation he told me, you have to get this lady on the show “as she is having an affair!”
Well actually, I don’t know if he did say that, but they are the first words that you see on her website “The Great Affair”
But what does this mean?
Well let’s tell you more about her, as you will see this lady is seriously in love with life, travel and her art, and experiencing life not just living it.
She is an writer, sketch artist, and illustrator, and now calls the world her muse.
How The Dots Joined Up For Candace
She travels with a passion to capture not just the images, and architecture of the world, but also the flavour and emotions too.
This makes her unique in my view.
She is someone that shows us through her words and also her amazing sketches how she sees the world.
Her character and personality shines out through her work, like no photograph can ever capture.
So how did this all start, well we find out during the show.
But like my own life has been changed by the Steve Jobs “Join Up Dots” speech, it there to see that hers was changed by the words of Joseph Campbell who once said “We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us.”
And now in her own words, “Seven years ago, I hesitantly took Campbell’s advice.
I let go of the life I had planned and opened myself to the myriad possibilities the world has to offer.
While stepping off the edge of my safe existence into the unknown was a terrifying prospect, I also had a feeling that something incredible awaited me if I could take that initial leap of faith.
Life has been a crazy adventure ever since.”
So what is it about travel that lights her up, and is it all plain sailing or are their times that she longs for a cubicle in a grey office somewhere?
Well lets find out as we bring onto the show to start joining up dots with the one and only Candace Rose Rardon
During the show we discussed such weighty topics with Candace Rose Rardon such as:
How she will never lose the appeal of having movement in her life, but realises that now its the movement of energy and passion that is the most important.
How she had to build up her confidence levels to travel the world by first travelling to England and New Zealand…close enough to America but different enough to appeal.
The moment when her big dot appeared and a single conversation changed her life forever.
How she finds it so surreal that she has found a thing in her life that people will pay for, and will never lose that wonderment each time income is earned.
You will find out what she misses most during her travel in her life – the pillow or the bed….and that is a deep question.
How To Connect With Candace Rose Rardon
Or if you prefer just pop over to our podcast archive for thousands of amazing episodes to choose from.
Full Transcription Of Candace Rose Rardon Interview
David Ralph [0:00]
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When we’re young, we have an amazing positive outlook about how great life is going to be but somewhere along the line we forget to dream and end up settling and Join Up Dots features amazing people who refuse to give up and chose to go after their dreams. This is your blueprint for greatness. So here’s your host live from the back of his garden in the UK. David Ralph.
David Ralph [0:49]
Yes, hello everybody and welcome to Join Up Dots is one of those shows it’s at 450 seems like a round number, but it’s not quite where we want to go. We’ve got things planned. For the 500 and to be honest, I didn’t even think I was going to get this show. I’ve been recording shows all day to day. And this just sort of puts it in a domestic setting. I looked outside of the recording studio and I realised it started raining on my wife’s washing Well, that’s not a good thing. So I rushed out to actually get the washing in because I’m a good husband at core and locked myself out of the recording studio so couldn’t get back in so it was fortunately but I managed to climb through the window and I was here in place for today’s guests because it seems that I’ve been waiting for her. right from the very beginning of Join Up Dots. She was first introduced to me as a guest, who appeared way back on episode 15 of the show, which was read Mike Selden. And after the show without hesitation, he told me you got to get this lady on the show. She’s having an affair. Well, actually, I don’t know if you say that. But then the first words that you see on her website, but great affair, but what does this mean? Well, let’s tell you more about it. As you’ll see, this lady is seriously in love with life. Travel, and her art and experiencing life, not just living it. She’s a writer, sketch artist and illustrator and now calls the world her muse. She travels with a passion to capture not just the images and architecture of the world, but also the flavour and emotions too, which makes her unique in my view. She’s someone that shows us through her words, and also her amazing sketches, how she sees the world, her character and personality shines out through her work, like no photograph can ever capture. So how did this all start? Well, we’ll find out during the show, of course, but like my own life has been changed by the Steve Jobs Join Up Dots speech, it’s clear to see that hers was changed by the words of Joseph Campbell who once said, We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us profound stuff. And now in our own words, seven years ago, I hesitantly took Campbell’s advice. I let go of the life I had planned and open myself to the myriad of possibilities The world has to offer. While stepping off the edge of my safe exists. And into the unknown was a terrifying prospect. I also had a feeling that something incredible awaited me if I could take that initial leap of faith, and life has been a crazy adventure ever since. So what is it about travel that lights you up? And is it all plain sailing? Or are there times that she longs for a cubicle in a grey office somewhere? Well, let’s find out as we bring onto the show to start joining up dots with the one and only Candace Rose Rardon. How are you Candace?
Candace Rose Rardon [3:26]
I’m Fantastic. Thank you so much for that, David. Thanks for having me.
David Ralph [3:29]
It is lovely to have you on because yeah, I don’t start that very often but having an affair is a bit bit of a racy start.
Candace Rose Rardon [3:39]
Definitely gonna draw people in that way for sure.
David Ralph [3:41]
We’re getting the downloads to that. But you are somebody you know cutting to the chase rare that you are somebody that literally seems like you are in love with life, whether you were travelling or whatever. Is it the travel that has kind of sparked your wide eyed approach to everything or is that naturally you and you’ve just found something that fulfills that?
Candace Rose Rardon [4:02]
That’s such a good question. And I think that travel was the spark it was the initial key to opening up that door to really walking through a great into a life that I’m passionate about and that I love. And I think you’re exactly right in that I’m at a place now where I really do feel like I found that passion and that love for life, no matter whether I’m in a more settled existence, whether I’m in a more home like environment, or whether I am on a train going through Burma, through the rural countryside, I think that I have gotten to a place where I’m really grateful to have that passion and that openness and that sense of adventure and discovery. And travel is what taught me that but I’m kind of in the process right now trying to bring everything I’ve learned through travel into a place where I’m at home and still have that sense of adventure in the everyday life I’m living.
David Ralph [4:57]
So you’re kind of looking for a base. Now for a while.
Candace Rose Rardon [5:01]
So at the moment, I’ve just created a home base in San Francisco, where I’ll be for about nine months. And I don’t think I’m not going to stop travelling. I’m already looking, you know, into things to do next year. But I really wanted to kind of change things up. And, you know, I spent seven years living overseas and travelling. And I felt like I had learned an extraordinary amount. I, as I said, I learned how to fall in love with life. I learned how to be open to every day, you know, I when I go outside my door each morning, it’s it’s kind of having that sense of adventure of Who am I going to meet today? You know, who, whose path Am I going across with? And I wanted to really come to a place where I’m bringing all those lessons back home, because I really do think that’s the ultimate call of travel. We go out into the world and we have incredible adventures and we’re pushed and retested and our comfort zone is torn open. And I think one of our ultimate challenges is how do we bring those lessons home? How do we bring the world back to back to home
David Ralph [6:00]
I’ve got two questions gonna pop into my head one I’m going to hold for a moment, which is probably the greatest question you’ve ever been asked. But the other one is, I know a lot of people that have been in corporate gigs, and they decide to travel. And when they come back, they can’t settle. And they just can’t settle for a long time. And it’s it’s never the point that they wish they hadn’t travelled. But they almost wish that they hadn’t seen the promised land because everything looks humdrum. How are you going to settle back into sort of San Francisco live, which is a lovely place to be. But it isn’t that kind of movement stimulation experiences on every corner, is it?
Candace Rose Rardon [6:38]
Yeah, exactly. You know, that was always the thing that I was most afraid of letting go of was movement. You know, you mentioned the name of my site, which is the great affair. And that comes from a quote from Robert Louis Stevenson, where he says I travel not to go anywhere but to go I travel for travels sake, the great affairs to move and that resonated with me long before I ever stopped on a flight and left the US for the first time, there’s something about it really spoke to me. And that really has been one of the the tenants of what I’ve loved living for these last seven years is movement. There’s something that just pulls you in about it, you know, whether you’re on a train or on a ferry, or it’s that sense that you’re moving forward through the world, but also moving forward through life at the same time. And I was so afraid of letting that go and of coming to a place of stillness and slowness and not having that, as you said, that sense of stimulation and that sense of discovery, and I just couldn’t figure out how you could let go of that and still live a life that enriches you and that fulfils you. And I think what I’ve come to realise is, I’ve tried to separate that sense of moving forward through the world and moving forward through life, that even when I’m still even when I’m slowing down, even when I’m settled, I can still move forward. There are things now, you know, I have a book I’m working on there other creative projects. I’m invested in that they require a little bit more headspace and creative energy from me. And travelling, takes that away from you a little bit, you know, doesn’t often put you in a place where you can wake up and be in a good headspace to work on a longer project. And so for me, it’s really about what is what’s important to me in that moment, what are my priorities? And what kind of lifestyle is going to help me fulfil those those dreams and those goals? And I think for someone who’s trying to who’s been out in the world has experienced the adventure of travel, and is trying to bring that home and as you said, might be feeling that, oh, gosh, I wish I’d never gone away at all, because now I know what I’m missing. I just had a conversation with a woman a few weeks ago, who is she’s from Israel. She spent a couple of years in Taiwan and she’s now here in the Bay Area. And she said she misses Taiwan terribly, and she feels like she’s lost something from the life that she had to leave behind there. And when I was talking to her, I really encouraged her To sort of reverse that sense of loss, and to say, think of all that you found through your two years in Taiwan, think of who you became because of your time there and think of how much it’s added to your life and how much richer and more interesting your story is. And so I’m really trying to do that in my own life right now, where it’s anytime I feel like I’ve lost something by not being out in the world for most of the year, I think about everything I’ve found everything I’ve seen, and all the people I’ve met, they’re still a part of me. And my life is so much richer because of my time in the world. So it’s really about taking that, you know, the sense of movement and the sense of connection I feel like I might have had to leave behind because I’m living a more settled existence right now and realising how much richer My life is because of is that all the time I spent in the world.
David Ralph [9:46]
So what you’re really saying is now you are moving your energies more than actually moving your body you’re going from an experience which is all feeling to another one. I can see that totally you must be really really hard to continue to travel and I have spoken to many people, fortunately previous show, but have done vast amounts of travel. And I remember a gentleman called Jason Lewis, who was the first guy to go all the way around the world on his own power. So he rolled us. Yeah. And he, he felt like he was gonna throw up if he had to look at a map again. It made him so sick, that he was actually travelling, travelling, travelling. So here’s my question candies, and this is probably the deepest, most profound, some might say personal question that you’re ever gonna get. This is what Join Up Dots. Hold about when you’re travelling. Do you miss your bed? Or your pillow most?
Candace Rose Rardon [10:43]
Oh my god. Fantastic question. Well, I’d have to say absolutely the bed.
David Ralph [10:50]
No, you’re a lunatic. No, it’s always the pillow isn’t it? It’s the pillow that makes the bed. I could I could lay on a bench and as long as I’ve got my nice normal pillow and One of those phone ones that when you press it down, it springs back out again. You know, that’s, that’s what you want is the pillow and
Candace Rose Rardon [11:08]
you know, I’ve slept in some funky, funky places I’m thinking of the handicapped bathroom, whose floor I went slept on, on a dam in Japan on an island when I was doing this little pilgrimage and you can I could kind of fashion a pillow all right that night, you know, I took some of my clothes and rolled them into a ball, but that hard tile floor that was when I was aching for images, so I’m going to still have to stick with bed. I think
David Ralph [11:29]
we’re folding out. We’re folding out. I’m gonna have to get where I really
Unknown Speaker [11:33]
David Ralph [11:35]
So, obviously being a lovely lady, a white lady travelling abroad. Does that make you know is that difficult, I’m a father of five ladies. And the thought of them going off half thrills me with excitement because I know that travel broadens the mind and all that kind of stuff. And the other half of me I think I’d be terrified until we’re back in my arms again, and they’re safe. So when you’re sort of you had this verge to sort of step off the edge. Did your parents go? Oh, no, no. Or did they go thank god she’s going I can, you know, we can clear out the spare bedroom and sort things out. What was the sort of vibe from your parents?
Candace Rose Rardon [12:17]
You know, it’s I love when people ask me this because it really has been such a journey with them. When I first decided to go travelling, it was the end of at the end of college, I was about a month away from graduation. And I spent my entire senior year in just this turmoil of uncertainty, having no idea what I wanted to do with my life. And finally, a month before graduation, two of my friends I ran into them serendipitously. And the first thing they said to me was Candice, come to London with us. And I knew instantly that I wanted to go with them. And I honestly think my parents were just thrilled initially that I had made a decision. Finally, she’s going somewhere, she’s doing something, you know, they could have said, I’m going to Timbuktu and they would have been thrilled for me. And because as you say I’m travelling alone As a woman is, is a bit of a tricky situation sometimes because I was going with two female friends. I think I had my parents full support in that moment because there were safety numbers and we were going together, we looked for a flat together for the first time, really had that sense of camaraderie about it. So I didn’t really get any flack from anyone about that decision, where I sort of had to navigate my parents support and really talk through them with it was, at the end of my time in London, I moved to New Zealand for a year on my own. I did a working holiday there. And then a couple years later, I moved to India on my own. And those two situations was really when my parents said, okay, what’s going on here? Let’s talk this through. It wasn’t that they didn’t support me, but the decisions were they had a little bit more at stake. You know, because I was going alone. I was going for longer periods of time. And I can honestly say now at this point of the game, I have their complete and utter support because they See that Travelling is completely tied to what I do. It’s my vocation, it’s my profession. It’s how I get my stories and my inspiration for art. So they’ve kind of seen my journey. I think at the beginning when it was sort of like, Hey, I’m gonna go to New Zealand, I’m gonna go to India, it’s like, Alright, let’s, let’s talk this through here. Let’s see what your reasoning is behind this. But now when I’m going somewhere I can, I can absolutely say I’ve got their support.
David Ralph [14:22]
Because the exciting thing about what you’ve done away from the parental oh my god is the fact that there’s no rhyme and reason really, it’s and that’s what life is about, isn’t it? If you plan to fully, you’re not gonna gain those experiences that you stumble across. Now, I used to do road trips for America. I love going to America, all Americans. I love you all. And I used to people used to say to me, oh, did you like Las Vegas? And I go, Well, no, not really, because I kind of knew I was gonna get I liked. We just went into town and you stumbled across something and you ended up in a bar, playing the local police force. pole, whatever, you know, it’s those kind of dances. Did you find that with yourself? Was it more free flowing, but got the juices going? Or was it when you went, Okay, I’m gonna go to the Taj Mahal and then I’m gonna go to somewhere else and I’m gonna go to somewhere else.
Candace Rose Rardon [15:14]
Oh my god, it’s absolutely free flowing for sure. The funny and ironic thing about life is that, and I think this is the exact premise of your shows I’m so thrilled to be on here is that you just go with the flow. And then with hindsight, like oh, my god, that was that was amazing. Look at that plan, the way it all worked out. But you can’t see that I think the whole point of life is that we’re not allowed to see that when we’re living it. We have to just feel like we’re slowly feeling our way through the dark. You know what I always think about, you know, I went to London for those first six months, and then I went to New Zealand for a year. And while I was in New Zealand, I discovered a master’s in travel writing course back in London. And so I knew right away that was what I wanted to do next and I work towards that I applied for the programme I was accepted. So by the time my year in New Zealand was coming to a close, I had this plan in place that I was going back to London to study. And when I would tell people about where I’d been the last couple of years, they would say, Oh, so New Zealand was like a gap year for you. That was just a nice year between your time in London and I, I thought, Well, yeah, it looks that way now, but it absolutely wasn’t the intention. And I had no idea that this course was going to materialise. So it’s one of those things, when you look back, it all kind of fits together nicely, doesn’t it? But I think you can’t see that. Getting togetherness before you know, before you’ve actually lived it.
David Ralph [16:31]
You can’t but you can have the faith and where we’re gonna be playing words of Steve Jobs later. And he sort of says it really nicely, but you’ve got to believe in something you know, you’ve got to believe that he’s gonna join up. And I think more often than not, if you sit on the sofa and you don’t do anything, it’s not gonna join up because you’re not giving life the chance to join up is the fact that you’re getting
Unknown Speaker [16:53]
Unknown Speaker [16:56]
not giving life anything to work with. Yeah, that’s it. Okay, thing. So when you were
David Ralph [16:59]
In London and it was your first sort of travel abroad. The first thing did you start drinking a lot because us English we like to drink
Unknown Speaker [17:08]
you know, I totally did. We get
Unknown Speaker [17:13]
discovered a grand love for cider for going to the pub. Absolutely love to the pop culture
David Ralph [17:19]
in England. Yeah, we that’s where we live. That’s where I’m recording at the moment. And when did you kind of think to yourself? Actually, now I’ve travelled because there’s a world apart between America and England, but in many ways, we’re very similar as well. And so to go from like, America to India, that would have been a huge culture shock. Did you have to sort of build up to it, to be able to sort of relax and enjoy the process?
Candace Rose Rardon [17:46]
Oh, my gosh, 100%. And I really do think that it’s every journey is an evolution, isn’t it? And I think there’s there’s meant to be a process and that really is that easing into it. As you say, you know, I started off with London and New Zealand and cultures that were, as you say, kind of same, same but different, where I could relate to everyone I was meeting. And yet there were these kind of subtle cultural differences. And what those years taught me I spent about two, three years in England and New Zealand, travelling a lot elsewhere in between, but those two countries were my basis at the time. And I think it really was a process of getting to know myself as an adult, as a traveller as a person out in the world and learning to trust myself. Most importantly, you know, when I do meet women who are wanting to go and travel on their own, the most important thing for me, to protect yourself and to move through the world is you really have to learn to listen to yourself and listen to your gut and trust your instincts, and those instincts have to be built their muscles, and when I first left and went to London, I did not have those muscles developed whatsoever. You know, I went with those two friends and we were doing all sorts of short weekend trips on our own. And I think when I really began to develop those, my was when I moved to New Zealand and I started travelling a lot of my own and even just doing short weekend trips by myself and you know, going to hike a Glazier hike a volcano and putting myself in situations where I had to learn to listen to my gut a little bit. And I always suggest to, especially to women who are wanting to travel on their own and like start now and start small and build up to that because the person I was when I moved to India, finally, four years after I started travelling, she would not have been able to do that when I first began, it really was a process of growing into that person and growing into the instincts that enabled me to have the experiences I had in India.
David Ralph [19:37]
And I suppose the key thing is Candice is travel doesn’t have to be abroad, you can go up the road, and more often than not, most of us live in areas that we never explore. We just kind of go from home to to work and back and forward and then we go, Oh, I need to travel. Let’s go off to India. But you could have you could have a great time travelling around San Francisco for a weekend. That would get the sort of the juices going somewhere, wouldn’t it?
Candace Rose Rardon [20:03]
Totally. You know what I love hearing people say this is travelled, it’s just a mindset. It’s a mindset of adventure of, I’m going to step outside my comfort zone a little bit and step outside my routine, you know that the woman I mentioned earlier who had lived in Taiwan, and it’s now here in the Bay Area, we continued our conversation we’re talking about, okay, how can we have that sense of travel even when we’re settled in one region and it really is about Okay, let’s wake up one day and rather than follow my routine, let me go down to the Ferry Building and sketch and you know, I did that a couple weeks ago and I got to meet these young Belgian travellers who are currently road tripping across the US and they join me on the sidewalk as I was sketching and shared their Belgian beer with me and we had this amazing conversation and when they got up and walked away, I felt my little you know, that corner wanderlust inside you it was completely satisfied. I had fulfilled exactly what it is I travel for in the place. I’m calling home right now. And that, to me felt like such a small victory of this is how you do it. You just it’s just a decision to wake up one day and say, you know today I’m not going to follow my routine, I’m going to step outside it. I’m going to leave the little comfortable routines I have set up for myself here. And I’m going to go out with that openness. I really think that’s what travel is about. It’s the sense of openness of saying, I have no idea what’s going to happen today or who I’m going to meet. And that thrills me.
David Ralph [21:23]
Well, I can imagine he does for you now, but I can also imagine that builds up because more often than not until you sort of get into this environment. Now through the show. I literally can talk to anyone, anyone comes on here, we can have a very deep conversation because I’ve kind of built up that muscle that you’re talking about. Now, I imagine four years ago if those Belgium’s would have come up while you were sort of sketching you would a glance, glance back down and carried on sketching and basically ignored them. So have you noticed that your ability to converse and be more attentive to other people has increased because of your travel?
Candace Rose Rardon [21:57]
Absolutely. 110 percent for sure. It really has that awareness of the people around me. And the possibility of connecting with them is absolutely something that was not a part of me when I left to go travelling seven years ago, and I had been travelling for a couple years when I started sketching. I guess it was almost about five years ago is when I first started travelling with a sketchbook, and honestly, at the very beginning of the sketching, I wasn’t sketching to meet people. I was just, it was a hobby I did when I travelled, it was something fun. You know, I would, I love that I was paying more attention and that it kind of slowed me down as a traveller, but it took me I would say, a couple of years into sketching. Before I finally discovered I kind of, I call it the third gift of sketching. You know, it slows me down. It makes me pay more attention. And finally, I discovered that, hey, this is an incredible tool for connection. But it wasn’t something that was a part of my sketching routine from the beginning. Now it’s the entire point of it. I couldn’t imagine not meeting people. my sketchbook but as you say, it’s taken really it’s taken several years to get to a point where that’s that’s the point of it
David Ralph [23:06]
is a beautiful story you’ve got because it ties up perfectly with what Join Up Dots is all about we we talk about this literally every day, that one of the things that is so important for people to do when they’re in a job that they don’t like, in a situation they don’t like is to reflect on what they used to like before life got in the way. And more often than not, that’s the kind of things that you did when you was a five year old, a six year old and you’d rush home from school and lay on the floor. And I imagine used to rush home and you used to sketch and draw and all that kind of stuff, then lost it. And then we connected with that, that passion of doing that simple thing. That’s your key super talent. That’s what people need to look out for, isn’t it?
Candace Rose Rardon [23:48]
Oh, completely. I was listening to some of your other shows. And I love that that’s a theme that comes up all the time is sort of looking back at who you were before. You had to it too, to please before you had a path to follow before you had bills to pay, you know, who were you and your most natural essential self? Because I think that there were clues there. And that now that we are adults and we’ve got, you know, this book, you know, vocations and professions we’re trying to build for ourselves. It’s okay, let’s, let’s look back a little bit and pay attention to who we were then and how can we fold those those pieces of ourselves into who we are today? You know, as you say, I completely was like that when I was when I was little. My father was a trained artist, and my mom was really creative. And so I grew up in a very artistic household. There are pictures of me under one of our tables that my mom had pasted paper under the table and had my siblings and I was little like Michelangelo’s doing the Sistine Chapel. You know, with us laying on our backs on the floor doing that, so that was always it was always a part of who we were growing up and when I was 12, and 13, I took watercolour Lessons from a woman I went there once a weekend, she had this technique that I’ve really sort of thought about a lot in the last couple of years now that I’ve resumed art, but she would have me pick a photo for inspiration that I wanted to paint. And I would fold it up into a little so that there were creased lines and the photograph and it was like a little grid. And then I would take a piece, you know, large piece of watercolour paper, and I would draw the same number of lines and squares. And that was how I painted I would draw and transfer the, you know, the image from the photograph kind of grid by grid square by square. And it was really sort of this process of working through the image and how am I going to convey it? And I think about that so much now, that for me, sketching is a way of making sense of the world and every little sketch I do to me feels like one of those little squares when those little pieces of the grid and I think like how cool is it that life gave me that technique of understanding a scene and understanding of please, back when I was 12 and 13 and you know when I got to high school, I’ve been I didn’t pick up a paintbrush for 10 years, I totally put art away. But I love that everything that was a part of us from the beginning, we can always pick back up. And I think that’s one of the most extraordinary things about life.
David Ralph [26:11]
I think what makes your work extraordinary, as I was saying in the introduction, is they’re not sketches, they actually trap your personality somehow. And I’ve been going through your website and there was one that really jumped out on me because it’s and everybody go over there Candice, Rose Rodan, it’s gonna be on the show notes, go and have a look. And there’s this picture in Girona in Spain, and it’s your sketching, but you’ve kind of got your hand down and it’s linking up with the actual buildings as well. So there’s a photograph of these buildings with your sketching front and the to kind of blend in facts very unusual. And that is that’s a step upon, isn’t it? That’s kind of like photography bats are that sketching? Was that your own idea? Can you see things in a kind of three dimensional way or this sketch will be good but if I do it like this, it’s He’s twice as good.
Candace Rose Rardon [27:02]
Yeah, you know, those images resonate with people so much, not even the sketch themselves. But when I hold the sketch up in front of whatever I was sketching, and really put it in context, and take a photograph of my, you know, my little wrist and the picture holding the sketchbook with the scene behind it, those are always what seemed to resonate the most with people, which I find so fascinating. And I really do think it’s, that’s the story of sketching. Because for me, I always say to people, when, especially when people say to me, oh, I would love to sketch but I can’t draw. And I’m like, No, I don’t accept that. Because for me, sketching is not about the final product. It’s not about the piece of artwork that results from the sketching process. It’s about absorbing that place and connecting with that place, and really trying to take in the context of the story of that place. And so I think that’s what I love so much about I kind of calling them like the institute photos. You know, when I’m showing the sketch and the location, I was drawing and From, I think that tells the larger story, doesn’t it that shows you there was so much more going on than just the singular piece of artwork that resulted from the sketch sketching session.
David Ralph [28:10]
Yeah, no, I agree with you totally on that. It’s funny actually, because when I was a small kid, I used to draw all the time always drawing cartoon characters and stuff. And I stopped doing it, except for when I’d be at work, sketching, you know, when you’re on the phone, doodling something, and somebody would always look over my shoulder and go, that’s good. Did you do that? And oh, yeah, just kind of data. And I didn’t really bother with it. Then my kids came along, and I reconnected again with it. Because they would say, Hey, Dad, could you draw someone? So could you draw a Mickey Mouse? And I could just draw it, but I’ve never wanted to sort of take it to that next level. And I don’t think I would have that personal belief of being able to take what is a talent because people keep telling me it’s a talent, I can do it easily to actually build a business around it. So when did you get to that point? When did you get to that point when you fall? These aren’t just doodles. This is something that is actually a business
Candace Rose Rardon [29:02]
Well, I, I’m going to jump ahead a little bit here because I know you asked a question about the big moment. And when I was thinking about what my big moment was, it really does connect with what you’ve just asked about when I realised there was more here than just a hobby. And for me, it happened. About three years ago, I went to a conference here in San Francisco for the first time. It’s called the book passage, travel writers and photographers conference. And someone I had admired for a long time from afar. His name is Don George. He wrote the Lonely Planet guide to travel writing, he was just a huge hero of mine. He founded the conference, and I got to meet him for the first time when I came here three years ago. And I think we had sent a quick email exchange before the conference began through that email. He saw my website and I had just a few days earlier, put a few sketches up on my website, and maybe six or seven of them, not a lot and they weren’t great, but he saw them. And one of the first things he said to me when we met here was, I saw your sketches, they were great, you should do more with them, you should put them with your stories. And up until that point, writing and sketching were two completely separate endeavours. For me. I love to write, I love to write stories and articles. The sketching was really just something to do while I was travelling, and I enjoyed it, but I wouldn’t do it a whole lot. And I didn’t do anything more with the sketches, they would just stay in my sketchbook, that conversation with dawn really sparked something in me, because I think as much as it’s important it is to have a sense of belief inside yourself. There’s also something huge to be fed about a sense of validation and affirmation from people who are working in your field that you respect and admire. When they give you that sense of encouragement to pursue a new direction that means the world and so to have that affirmation from dawn to Hey, there’s something here to your sketches, you should do more than put them with your stories. That’s Really when I began to do sketches, write stories about the moments I was sketching in and really illuminating what was kind of what I was talking about earlier with those in situation photos, the stories were doing the same thing. They were illuminating the grander moments surrounding the sketch. And then I would put the image or images with the stories. And that’s now the way I tell stories. That’s my, my storytelling methodology. But it didn’t exist three years ago. And so that, for me is really the moment I look back to when I got that little push of encouragement from Don. And it’s when I began to sell art and when I began to kind of offer my art up as a service and you know, kind of say, Hey, I’m an artist, I’m for hire, I’m an illustrator. I’d love to work for you. That really was when that happened. And so sometimes it is, it’s kind of a free flowing journey. And sometimes you do have a moment that you can very explicitly point back to and say that’s when things began to change.
David Ralph [31:54]
Absolutely. And I’m going to play some words now that really emphasise a VAT point, that conversation We’ve done BCG.
Jim Carrey [32:01]
My father could have been a great comedian, but he didn’t believe that that was possible for him. And so he made a conservative choice. Instead, he got a safe job as an accountant. And when I was 12 years old, he was let go from that safe job. And our family had to do whatever we could to survive. I learned many great lessons from my father, not the least of which was that you can fail at what you don’t want. So you might as well take a chance on doing what you love.
David Ralph [32:29]
Now, we’ve done coming along, I don’t think you would have taken that next step. You’d found what you were doing, that you love, like Jim Carrey, saying, but you as you say, you needed about one person. Now. Yeah, when that person came along, one step further on, who actually said, Yeah, I’ll pay you for that. Yeah, that’s good. How much is that? What was that like in your life, when suddenly that that drawing that you’d created was gonna fly away from you, and a drawing of the queen or the president or whatever it was going to come? But your way?
Candace Rose Rardon [33:02]
You know, it was really the whole thing still a little bit surreal, I’d have to say, because I still just sketch because it’s what I love to do. It’s what I would do if no one was paying me to do it. I love going out and kind of trying to see the world through this visual lens. And so I think it’s a little bit surreal when what you love to do, becomes something that the world is willing to pay for, and needs and wants to use in a different way. And I always think of this Venn diagram, when people are telling me Okay, how do I do what I love? How do I make a living from that, I think of a Venn diagram, where one circle is what I love to do. And the other circle is what the world needs and what the world is willing to give me money for. And, you know, I think at the beginning of a lot of our journeys, there’s only a little bit of overlap in those circles. And it’s really about trying to push the two circles together so that there’s as much overlap as possible. And I think I’m getting to that point where there is that overlap of this is something I love to do. And not only finding opportunities to be paid for it, but creating opportunities. And you know, a lot of the things that I’ve done doing illustrations for BBC travel, those sort of things didn’t really exist before. But when you do what you love, and you put it out into the world, keep doing it with consistency and with passion. And I think the world starts to take notice a little bit and thinks, hey, how can I use this? This is really cool. I’d like to try to do something with this. So I think it really, it will always be a little surreal for me, I think because it’s been such a journey and such a it’s not anything I set out to do. And so it always has that element of surprise to it for me,
David Ralph [34:44]
but I think he’s probably surreal to the world as well. The fact you know, I was listening to the radio yesterday and the new Star Wars film now Star Wars seven really do we need another Star Wars film, but it’s not it’s like broken all records and you kind of think 35 years down the line and this film is still taking always, what is it? What is it? Why are we going for it big time? And you don’t know, do you? You just can’t actually answer that. But you just know what you like. And certainly, as I say, I’ve been going through your website, and I see a lot of travel websites and your work is different. It’s more like, it’s more like a book. And when I was looking at it, that the thing I liked about your stories was the fact that they are one step away from and this might sound like an insult, and I hope it doesn’t. This is the biggest compliment I could ever say. But they’re one step away from children’s sort of pictures that it’s like close to the things that I would expect in a fairy tale book. It’s an image of what is possible and not what is in front of you. There’s a lovely imagery. If you ever thought of doing children’s books with your writing and your drawing as well, I think it’d be a match made in heaven.
Candace Rose Rardon [36:00]
I can’t thank you enough for that. And I love that you said that. A Yes, I absolutely want to do children’s books one day. But be what I often say is I want to write children’s books for adults, I think why can’t we have pictures on our books, you know, with how the first, our first encounters with books growing up, were pictures that were books with these extraordinarily beautiful pictures. And somewhere along the way, you know, as we graduate into chapter books and smaller novels, we lose that. And I think we were trained to read both with words, but also visually that that’s, that was our first encounter. And I think that to me, it’s still really an important element of books. And I also think, in terms of I do get that comparison a lot where people tell me that my style looks like it should be for children’s books. And I think it’s because there’s almost an element of precision to what I’m doing where I want you to see exactly what I’m seeing. I’m not Doing like kind of an impressionistic portrait of Girona, I want you to see that balcony with that Catalan flag hanging from it and that cup of coffee and kind of it has a little bit of a literalness to it that we were used to having as children. But I think I wanted to bring that into the world of travel. Because a lot of the places I’m sketching aren’t places people might be passing through all the time. And I spent two weeks earlier this year sketching in Myanmar, and it might not be alone in the Shan Highlands might not be a place for many people are going and so I want you to look at it as sketching an image and to be completely transported there and to feel what it would be like to be sitting on the side of the road talking to an 80 year old Shawn grandfather. So I think that to me, is kind of where that spensive children’s book illustration comes from, is just really wanting to communicate and convey something to the reader.
David Ralph [37:50]
Yeah, I think he catches you again. I think it captures your heart. The very first thing that we said at the beginning was the wide eyed approach to life You seem to love So if we take you back to obviously, everything’s been rose tinted. It sounds wonderful what you’ve been doing. But I imagine there’s times out there that been a bit crappy to say the least.
Unknown Speaker [38:10]
We can talk about that
David Ralph [38:12]
for a while. Now, when you come over to London, what I have found more often than not, and I’ve experienced it myself, is that you go travelling with people, and after about five days, or probably a bit longer than that, you start to hate the way they walk, or the hate the way they eat, or even breathing. I went on holiday with some guy. I’ve known him for 25 years. I couldn’t even bear the way he breathed and we’re just not friends anymore. How have you dealt with that? And was that one of the reasons why you went to New Zealand? on your own? Did you need to get away from these people share the gossip candies.
Candace Rose Rardon [38:50]
You know, it definitely has been a journey in the sense of learning that I love going out on my own now in the world for a couple of reasons. You know, I’m the kind of person that when I’m travelling with a close friend or family member, you know, I’ve travelled with my sister and my mom. You kind of you become very sensitive and aware of them, don’t you? You know, so you’re sitting on a train your mom’s next to you and you want to make sure she’s okay. Is she happy? Is she hungry? Are we having a good time, kind of that hyper awareness to the your travel companion? I think when you’re travelling with a friend or a family member, that’s just natural, it’s a part of it, and it lends its own flavour to the trip. But Alan de Botton, who has a great book called The Art of travel, I’m not sure if you’ve read it. What he says is that when you travel alone, you don’t have to direct that energy to the to your companion, that you really can be more open to the world you’re you can be weird. You can be curious, you can ask questions of strangers that you might feel a little weird asking if you have a close friend next to you and, and so for me, it’s really become not just about You know, navigating the personalities, the people you’re travelling with, but it’s really become, I travel alone, because that’s how I want to connect with people. And I think when you are alone, you kind of send a different message to the world that you know, people might be more willing to approach you than if you had someone sitting next to you. So yeah, there’s a myriad reasons of why I am kind of a fan of solo travel now.
David Ralph [40:21]
So I won’t delve into your personal life, but in my fantasy world, you suddenly meet somebody that you’ve bought head over heels in love with, and you’re you want to travel the world and they go, Oh, I come with you. Would that? Would that be alright? Or would you say no, actually, no, I love you to bits but you stay there because I’d rather do this on my own.
Candace Rose Rardon [40:42]
You know, that’s always the thing when people talk to me about Oh, have you met someone I’m sure you want to travel companion and like, you know what, I don’t want to meet someone to travel with. I want someone to come home to. I am perfectly happy travelling on my own. For me. It’s about finding that person I want to build a home with so exactly I am I think I’ll always be at by heart, so the traveller, and so we’ll see what happens. We’ll see how that goes out.
David Ralph [41:05]
I had a lady on the show, and I’ve got to remember her name, but I think it was princess Omar had to Abraham mahama There you go. That’s a good name is quiet name. I won’t do it twice. And she is trying to travel to every single country in the world. But she’s got kids. Wow. So what she does, she actually waits till it’s half term holidays. And then she leaves the kids or does she do when his term time it might be when they’re at school. She goes, and she says right, see you later kids. And off she goes. And she’s travelling the world she’s trying to do that she travels on her own. She says that she gets up at one o’clock every morning and goes to bed at six o’clock at night. Because she found that the evenings was her only time during the day she always had experience but when it sort of got dark, that’s when couples got together and bars filled up with relationships and all that kind of stuff. And so she So of data, and that’s how she’s operating by focusing her time, but getting up at one o’clock in the morning is madness. But that’s how she
Unknown Speaker [42:07]
David Ralph [42:08]
Absolutely. So do you find yourself falling into those kind of routines travelling on your own when you just think to yourself, oh, it’d be nice to have somebody here. That’s a beautiful sunset, and I’ve got no one to share it with.
Candace Rose Rardon [42:24]
I love that she talked about evenings being the lonely times, there’s actually a poem by an Irish poet named john O’Donoghue. I’m not sure if you’ve come across him before. But he has a book of blessings called to bless the space between us and he has one in there called blessing for an exile, which is basically he’s writing to people who are on their own in very foreign places. He’s writing to you in that place of darkness that you’re talking about where you feel very far from home far from anyone who knows you. And he talks about when you come back to your room at night, that being the hardest time And for sure I I completely identify with that. And I can’t say I’ve ever changed my schedule so drastically to avoid it because I kind of, I’m a little bit of a I feel funnily about these things, and then I think we should make space for the darkness and make space for the loneliness. I think we have a lot to learn from it. And I don’t I try not to push it away. And I guess I have never really tried to arrange my schedule in such a way as to prevent that loneliness from happening. Because I think it’s very telling I think that Yeah, as I said, we can learn a lot from it. Yeah, it’s, it’s a part of, it’s a part of life in general. You know, I think when people hear that I travel alone, the first thing they say is, well, don’t you get lonely? It’s the first question that comes out of their mouth and
David Ralph [43:49]
even more Why do you miss your bed or your pillow? Surely that’s the first question.
Candace Rose Rardon [43:54]
That’s the first question and the next thing they asked which kind of goes hand in hand is Don’t you ever get lonely and I kind of try to gently turn back to them, as I say, well, don’t you get lonely. You know, it’s it’s something that we all encounter in life, no matter whether we’re surrounded by our family at home, or whether we are, you know, completely on our own in a very foreign country. And I don’t think that it’s something that we should try to prevent from happening because I do think it’s something that we can learn from.
David Ralph [44:22]
Because I actually don’t like I love people. I love people, but I like being away from people. So that when I put myself back into the people environment, I can really embrace it that the full and surrounded by people all the time, I just can’t bear I like to sort of separate myself and then I come back out and then I’m ready to rock. And that’s what I do on the show. I record one day on Thursday, and I can really focus in on the conversation and I’m really engaged. But afterwards, I need to have you know, at least a day or whatever to sort of not talk to anyone and just snarl at somebody as they walk past
Candace Rose Rardon [44:59]
this technique. Every one that passes you absolutely
David Ralph [45:01]
don’t answer the door or anything, no matter who’s there. So did you find that when you came back from travelling and obviously you settled back in with your friends or parents or whatever? Was there a lot of snarl time when you think to yourself? Oh, God, you know, I was better off last week last week. I could have done one and now you’re telling me to go and see Star Wars eight? I didn’t want to see the first seven.
Candace Rose Rardon [45:24]
Yeah, exactly, is a huge transition. Because I think for me, the biggest thing I have to get used to when I sort of come back into society and back into an established communities are those demands on your time where you realise my time is no longer 100% my own is so hard to let go of, you know, in the last couple of years, I sort of created I kind of call it doing these do it yourself creative retreats, where last year I rented a yurt for three months on a small island in rural Canada. So I was completely on my own. This summer I rented a small house on like a to land in Guatemala to live there on my own for six weeks, and I have these like, really, you know, beautiful periods of time in which I’ve got all the time in the world, and I’m working on my projects, and then I come back into, you know, I go back and see my family or I come to San Francisco and see my friends. And it’s like, Whoa, I do not have complete control over my schedule anymore. And that is really hard to get used to, for sure the sense that you’re a part of something bigger than yourself again, and that sometimes there’s somebody wants you to come here or have lunch there. And you just have to that’s a part of, of being human and being a functioning member of the community is that sometimes we’re good? Yeah, we’re not going to be able to direct our days exactly as we would like them to go.
David Ralph [46:43]
So somebody comes along candies and says, Do you candies? I like what you do. I want you to sit in a cubicle eight hours a day and I’ll pay you a million dollars a year. Would you accept it?
Candace Rose Rardon [46:56]
Absolutely not. I put such a high price on My freedom and my it’s kind of like that openness to possibility that to suddenly close myself off to that, it would have to be, I don’t think there’s really a sum of money I could put on it actually, I was gonna say more than a million. But no, I don’t think there’s any sum that’s become. I mean, because that really is what you have to do when you’re setting out and creating a vocation that’s a little bit less traditional, you know, I don’t earn as much as I might if I went and got a stable job or a more subtle job, but it’s kind of that intangible part of my paycheck. You don’t see that in my bank account. But that freedom is a huge part of why I do what I do. And being able to go out in the world or choose to be in San Francisco like that kind of having a sense of volition and control over over my path is a huge part of why I do what I do.
David Ralph [47:53]
I think when you do what you do, and you keep on doing it until you get noticed, then you will A yo yo earn a lot more. And I think, yeah, I don’t think I’ve spoken to one entrepreneur that has said to me, yeah, it was easy for the first two years, I breezed it. And then there’s always a struggle when you’re earning a lot less than you did before. The fact that you love doing it and the fact that you know that you can’t be a corporate guy anymore, because you’re not gonna get to that desk at nine o’clock, because it’s my time and not your time. That’s when you realise it’s worth pushing through. Do you think so?
Candace Rose Rardon [48:30]
I love that for sure. And I love that that play on the entrepreneurial path for sure. I think those first few years they’re meant to be. It’s a journey, isn’t it? And I think if you don’t have you have to earn your journey, I think and there has to be that uncertainty and there has to be that that trust and faith and your path to lead you to a place where you’re going to be able to support yourself and you’ve got to take a few risks at the beginning and I think that’ll make everything else that follows it. worth it.
David Ralph [49:00]
Play the words from a man who says it a lot better than me probably not better than you. But he certainly does a better job than me. This is Steve Jobs.
Steve Jobs [49:08]
Of course, it was impossible to connect the dots looking forward when I was in college. But it was very, very clear looking backwards 10 years later. Again, you can’t connect the dots looking forward, you can only connect them looking backwards. So you have to trust that the dots will somehow connect in your future. You have to trust in something, your gut, destiny, life, karma, whatever. Because believing that the dots will connect down the road will give you the confidence to follow your heart, even when it leads you off the well worn path and that will make all the difference.
David Ralph [49:43]
Now from my side of the fence, I can see that you’re on to greatness and I don’t think you can quite grasp how great you’re going to be and I don’t say you you can go back through all the episodes I don’t say that very often at all. There’s something about about your work that I think is waiting for The big audience, but when you was in the kind of crappy times, as Steve was saying, you’ve got to trust in somewhere, you’ve got to have faith, what pulled you through? It’s all like being able to scribble and kind of enjoy yourself and all that, but What kept you going not to just go I’m gonna go home and get a job and say it was a bad thing.
Candace Rose Rardon [50:19]
Yeah, well, what I want to say here, like even what you touched on earlier about, kind of, you know, the the journey seeming Rose, Rose tinted. And all that is that there’s been incredible moments of doubt and darkness and that it’s always going to be there. I think you know what you said about looking back on the times when there was doubt. There’s always doubt for me, even the summer when I was in Guatemala, working on a book, there were moments of doubt. And I think I’ve learned that it’s a part of life that doubt is like this friend that comes along, sometimes, more frequently than other times. And so it’s there’s all is going to be those lower moments that it’s life is valleys in life is mountain tops. And we have to learn to embrace both of those experiences. You know, going to that book passage conference three years ago and getting Don George’s validation that was a mountaintop experience. Two weeks later, I moved to India, I felt like it was the complete wrong decision and had a tonne of doubt. So the mountains and valleys sometimes come very close to each other. And I really do believe that valleys and darkness are always going to be part of the creative journey. They’re always going to be part of our life’s journey. And it’s exactly as Steve Jobs said, it’s just about having that quiet sense of trust, that even in the darkest moment, even when you feel like I, you know, for me, the line that doubt loves to use when we talk is you’re never going to be anything more than who you are right now. It’s that sense of not being able to see a few steps into the future and to not kind of losing faith in the dots right and losing faith and this is not going to ever go anywhere. And what I have to do Just sit myself down and just say you have been here before, this darkness has come before, and you have gotten through it. And you’ve continued and the dots can, will continue to connect, even if you can’t see how they’re going to play out right now. So just put one foot in front of the other, not even keep walking, just stand up and put one foot in front of the other and then put the other foot out. It’s really just about taking baby steps, small steps in the darkness and trusting that the light of belief and and kind of faith again is gonna come back.
David Ralph [52:31]
I couldn’t have said it better. And we’re gonna find out how much you have changed now because we’re gonna send you on another journey. I know you’ve settled into San Francisco, but hey, is my show. So we’re going to send you back in time to have a one on one with your younger self. And if you could go back in time and speak to the young Candice, what age would you choose and what advice would you give? Well, we’re going to find out because we’re going to play the theme tune and when it fades, you’re up. This is the Sermon on the mic.
Unknown Speaker [53:02]
We go with the best of the show, man, my
Unknown Speaker [53:11]
Candace Rose Rardon [53:21]
Well, hello younger Candice, you are 17 years old right now you have a couple of months to go before your high school graduation. And I am thrilled to be talking to you from about 12 years in the future. And I couldn’t be happier to tell you today that life is going to take you on the most incredible journey. It’s going to surprise you it’s going to take you places you never thought you were going to go. There’s a couple of things. I want to say to you, though, that you will eventually learn but I want you to learn them faster. I want you to first of all, and most importantly, let go of your need for society’s approval. For that made you feel right now to follow a path that people will Prove of you will learn this eventually. But do it faster because you have more fun that way you have more fun when you can follow your own path and not feel like you have to follow a path that other people approve of. Whether that’s choosing a college to go to choosing a person to spend your life with, have fun and be open and don’t feel like you have to do something that people are going to approve of. Also let go of your need to decide on a path decide on a vocation I know right now you feel tormented between Should I pursue songwriting? Should I pursue writing Should I pursue travelling, pursue it all enjoy this time of experimentation? Although you’re waiting for an epiphany, you’re waiting for that moment of this is what I meant to do. Enjoy all the fun along the way, enjoy the this, this moment of getting to experiment and try out different things. The last thing I want to say is become okay with saying I don’t know, you will learn this but do it now. Learn to live without the answers. Someone who will become very important to you is Rainer Maria Rocha, a German poet who says live the questions now because the answers couldn’t be given to you. It couldn’t be given to you right now, this becomes one of your favourite quotes in the future, but I want to give it to you now so that you know that you can follow your path without needing to know where it’s going to lead. And just saying, I don’t know when people ask you where you’re going next when they ask you what you’re going to major in and what you’re going to do when you graduate. I don’t know. And that’s okay. And that’s the whole point of the journey.
David Ralph [55:24]
Brilliant stuff. Candy’s what’s the number one best way that our audience can connect with you?
Candace Rose Rardon [55:30]
Well, as you said earlier, I love when people come and visit my website, Candice Rose Rardon.com. That’s where I share a tonne of stories a tonne of sketches. And the next best way is I’m on Instagram and I love sharing those photos I was talking about when I take a photo of sketch of a sketch and its context. That’s the first place I put those up is on Instagram and that my handle there is just Candace Rardon. So I would love for people to come and say hi there.
David Ralph [55:54]
We’ll have all the links on the show notes candies. Thank you so much for spending time with us today. joining up those dots and playing Come back again when you have more dots to join up, as I believe that by joining up the dots and connecting our past is the best way to build our futures. Candice rose Rodan, thank you so much.
Candace Rose Rardon [56:10]
Thank you. Thank you. It was an honour.
David Ralph [56:15]
Wasn’t she wonderful? And I’ll tell you what, you go over to a website. There is so much stuff on there. The images are brilliant. The stories are amazing. And you can book her for speaking events. She travels around the world speaking about her adventures. So if that’s something that interests you, then contact candies and she will she’ll fly over to your place and do a presentation. Thank you so much for listening to the show. I finally enjoyed that one. I thought it was a great conversation all the way through. Lovely Lady, and we will see you again. Cheers. See you later. Bye bye.
David doesn’t want you to become a faded version of the brilliant self you or wants to become. So he’s put together an amazing guide for you called the eight pieces of advice that every successful entrepreneur practices, including the two that changed his life. Head over to Join Up dots.com to download this amazing guide for free, and we’ll see you tomorrow on Join Up Dots.
David Ralph [57:12]
You know, I felt like I Oh, because you bought the show it ended But no, it’s me again. Can you do me a favour I’m really looking for some five star ratings and reviews on iTunes. It really is the rocket powder pushes you up. I haven’t wanted to ask before because he felt a little bit embarrassed about it. But now is the time that I need to make the move. So if you love the show, and you’ve loved listening to it as much as I’ve loved doing it for you, go over to iTunes and look for David Ralph, Join Up Dots and all the reviews will be greatly appreciated. Thank you so much for everything you do. Thank you so much for simply listening. But if you could do this as well. Wow, we’re gonna be we’re gonna be mates forever. Thanks very much. Bye