Jane Evans Joins Us On The Steve Jobs Inspired Join Up Dots Podcast
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Introducing Jane Evans
Jane Evans is today’s guest joining us on the Steve Jobs inspired Join Up Dots podcast, and she is a lady who is on a mission to help all the parents of the world.
She is an expert on dealing with the complexities of raising children, and the anxieties and behavioural problems that we as parents may encounter with our adorable offspring.
Well, actually as a father of five children I would say we will definitely encounter these issues, which make them less than adorable sometimes.
For the past 20 years she has worked in a range of settings with families with complex needs who have lived through a range of trauma and as a respite foster carer herself had direct experience of living with traumatised children.
How The Dots Joined Up For Jane
She has now been running her own company training, speaking and writing about the impact of early years trauma children’s behaviour and development needs bringing much needed attention to these issues.
And now is also a veteran of TedX, yes she can now add that to her expanding list of talents, as in September 2015 she took to the stage in Bristol England with her speech on “Taming and Tending Your Inner Meerkat brain!!”
So with her writing, TV appearances, speeches and myriad of other activities going on in her life, how does she retain her effectiveness on the key issues she is tackling?
And as an entrepreneur who cares so deeply, is there a chance that she actually ends up caring too deeply and loses the balance in her life?
Well lets find out as we bring onto the show to start Joining Up Dots with the one and only Jane Evans
How she feels that she has never had a huge master plan in her life, and subsequently often chose the hardest most bumpy route that it was possible to take.
Why it is so important to nurture the sense of worthiness in our children at home, to protect against the battles they will deal with in the outside world.
We discuss why the world is training their children to go for the success in everything in life, which may not be the best way to operate.
Why she needed a coach to be able to get her to say the words “I’m Good Enough!”
Why it is so important to show compassion for yourself first, so you can show compassion and do great good to the people in the world.
Jane Evans Books
How To Connect With Jane Evans
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Full Transcription Of Jane Evans Interview
When we’re young, we have an amazing positive outlook about how great life is going to be. But somewhere along the line we forget to dream and end up settling. Join Up Dots features amazing people who refuse to give up and chose to go after their dreams. This is your blueprint for greatness. So here’s your host live from the back of his garden in the UK, David Ralph.
David Ralph [0:26]
Yes, hello, everybody. Welcome to Join Up Dots. This is David Ralph. And it’s been a weird morning, I was all set up ready to go. I had everything lined up. Hey, I’m a professional and things just stop working. I don’t know why. Why do computers do that for you? I think I’ve said that numerous times over the last 500 shows or so. But it’s just It’s madness. You press a button. It should work. Mr. Gates, pull your finger out. Now. This is going to be Episode 459 and today’s guests joining us on the show is a lady who is on a mission to help all the parents of the world. She’s an expert on Dealing with the complexities of raising children and the anxieties and behavioural problems that we as parents may encounter with our adorable offspring. Well, actually, as a father of five children, and a grandson, I would say we’re definitely encounter these issues which makes them sometimes less than adorable. Now for the past 20 years, she’s worked in a range of settings with families with complex needs. We’ve lived through a range of trauma and as a respite foster carer herself, had direct experience of living with traumatised children. She’s now been running around company training, speaking and writing about the impact of early years trauma, children’s behaviour and development needs, bringing much needed attention to these issues. And now she’s also a veteran of TEDx. Yes, she can now add back to expanding list of talents. As in September 2015, she took to the stage in Bristol, England with a speech on taming and tending your inner Meerkat brain. So with her writing, TV appearances, speeches, and myriad of other activities going on in her life. How does she retain her effectiveness on the key issue she’s tackling and as an entrepreneur who cares so deeply? Is there a chance that she actually ends up caring too deeply and loses the balance in her life? Well let’s find out as we bring them to the show to start joining up dots with the one and only Jane Evans How are you doing?
Jane Evans [2:19]
I’m ready good. Thanks David. The sun is shining despite it being November so that’s that always lifts my spirit.
David Ralph [2:26]
It’s a fairly old year this year, isn’t it because we’re in the United Kingdom we’ve had a rubbish summer we’ve had like maybe one hot day and then nothing have been the three weeks later another hot day and now we’re going into winter it seems to be warming up. I’m still walking around in my my tropical shorts Jane.
Jane Evans [2:45]
Good grief. I’m definitely got my winter release on but but enjoying the sun.
David Ralph [2:51]
Does that not warm you up the photo of me in my tropical
Jane Evans [2:55]
it’s not working David sorry, not work. Try visualising later. Maybe I’m losing
David Ralph [3:00]
my touch. I’m losing my touch. So, as I was reading the introduction, I must admit, I wrote back quite a while ago. And I got to that last bit. And I thought that’s a good question. I forget that I have actually written these things. And I shouldn’t really say it’s a good question. But here we go. As an entrepreneur who cares so deeply, is there a chance that she actually ends up caring too deeply and loses the balance in our life? I’m going to start with that one. Because I think that’s a key issue. Do you care too deeply when you’re dealing with something that is emotion based and helping people out?
Jane Evans [3:33]
Wow, you have really cut to the chase in a scary way. Yeah, I think it is both my my strength but also my stumbling block because if real people get to me, and then I have to attach a price to it that makes things extremely difficult. You know, for a woman who has lived with domestic violence is on the end of the phone and needs help. Having been also that woman, it’s very difficult for me to say, Oh, these are my fees, and this is what I charge. And also, you know, small charities, they will often contact me and say, oh, we’re just a small charity. So I have to deal with that in a variety of ways, really, to try and still earn a living because I am self employed, I don’t earn millions of pounds by any stretch. So that’s a big learning curve for me is the balance in all of this.
David Ralph [4:29]
And how do you do that? Because I know that that is a problem that most entrepreneurs have when they’re getting going. And I’ve had this myself, and I still have it a lot of times when people say to me, ah, can I just ask you this question? And I think God, I’m giving away huge value here that’s taken me four or five years to learn and I’m giving it to you but nothing. Now that is just for people who are effectively business people or people that are looking to better their lives. You go deeper than that and you go to issues that I really wouldn’t Want to delve around into so how do you overcome that? That constant battle?
Jane Evans [5:06]
Sometimes I just go with I meant to, to give to give this to this person I don’t know why I do believe greatly in giving back. I also now have employed a PA so she does a few hours a week for me and I often send requests to her now because she gets between me and the people and and that’s the only way of protecting myself because I get requests all the time, you know, emails, begging emails, all this is happening with my child and they and they write their whole, you know, live history, and then they want me to respond in an email and I mean, something like that will probably take me an hour to do and then then you get repeat emails. And I just, unfortunately now in a way, you know, I’m looking at the big stuff, how can I make big big shifts in what we’re doing to children and how With supporting parents, and so I have to sometimes make that decision of I can’t, I can’t tend every sheep in the flock if I’m going to keep the flock safe.
David Ralph [6:10]
I was speaking to somebody the other day, and they said, when they started, they actually created a fake PA. And they called him I don’t know, Bob, Bob Michaels or something. And it was them sending the email, but they put this barrier and people kept on responding to Bob. And he actually answered in a different way to how he would have done he found it like a protective barrier to actually keep away from his heart and he’s emotions. Bob could deal with that. And it worked like a dream, really, it’s very strange.
Jane Evans [6:43]
That’s, that’s brilliant. Because you do I mean, luckily, as well I have great people in my life who, who see my value and see the value of what I do and, and in sometimes in quite direct ways, you know, hold me hold me accountable, you know, you cannot just give stuff away. Jane, you’ve you spent 21 years doing this work and 11 years studying it on your own by yourself. You can’t just give this away. It’s not okay. So those people are you know, they’re hard conversations sometimes and they make me squirm. But I’m very, very glad that I have a few people in my life who do that.
David Ralph [7:19]
Well, just before we delve back into your backstory and sort of work towards where you are today, I’m going to give you one tip, Jane, when you finish this interview, Google vocaroo. Now this was a game changer for me. And I used to spend a lot of time typing out these really lengthy emails, where now I just record my voice onto an email and send it to them. And it’s a personal response. And you can bash out hundreds of emails in a day because you just talk and you talk and it’s from the heart. And people respond to that, like, you’ve really done them a favour, but actually, it’s quicker than actually typing out these very long, wordy emails that have to be perfect. You put that personal approach on you. So that’s it. Kuru and I really would say, look into that. And I’m sure it’ll be a game changer for you as well.
Unknown Speaker [8:05]
Thank you. Yes, that sounds amazing.
David Ralph [8:08]
Now let’s take you back then because obviously to get to where you are now you’ve had to go on a bit of a journey. And when you was at school when you was a little Jane Evans, was this part of the master plan or has this been in classic Join Up Dots timeline stumbles and falls that have led you to here?
Jane Evans [8:28]
Yeah, I definitely had no master plan I’m not sure I ever have had until very recently, it’s been more of a crashing bashing falling in a he experienced to get to this point. And yeah, very chaotic, chaotic in my thinking and my behaviours and my beliefs about myself. For some reason I’ve had to go you know, you know the easy route that you can see, I always have to go the hard, bumpy, painful route, it seems or until Now not anymore, but until now, which of course has given me great learning but also a lot of pain along the way as well. So isn’t it the right
David Ralph [9:09]
way of doing it though, isn’t it the bumping, I’m a great believer now. But when the struggles come along, that’s the true learning. And by going smoothly, I made a few mistakes at the very beginning of Join Up Dots where I didn’t learn the nuts and bolts of certain things. I thought I was making it easy for myself handing over a certain amount of work to people. And then later on, I realised I didn’t know whether they were screwing me over, because I wasn’t sure what they were actually doing. So I kind of backtracked and made sure that I learned everything and it was a lot more difficult. It was stumbles, it was false. It was failures. It was bashing into things like you say, but I think the the bumpy road is actually the better route now. I think you learn more from it than you.
Jane Evans [9:52]
Yeah, up to a point but I think when you when you keep going down the bumpy route, it It robs you of So much of your greatness and your potential, your emotional energy, your physical energy is a massive distraction. And I would would have welcome less less bumps because I’ve always been all about the learning. But like I said it, you know, it takes you down some very dark places and you lose great swathes of your life and yeah, that’s not helpful to anybody. So a few bumps Yeah, and and definitely, I’m all about the learning but yeah, less less is, is definitely better, I would say.
David Ralph [10:34]
And so do you think that the word that really jumped out at me was greatness Do you believe, like I do, but every single person who’s listening to this show who’s walking around, even if they think that they’re doing well personally, they’ve got greatness in them?
Jane Evans [10:51]
Absolutely. I mean, I, I sit with people who have had the most horrific journeys through life. And you know, as I sit with them which is is an enormous privilege for me, I I’m always curious about their greatness because there’s something utterly breathtakingly great in them that has still gotten to this point that they sit in front of me, you know, listen to their stories I shouldn’t have even survived. So yeah, and and of course that those that holds the most greatness of all our our children. And you know, that’s why I care so much about what I do because we are making a really rubbish job at the moment of crushing the greatness in our children instead of nurturing it.
David Ralph [11:36]
Okay, so being devil’s advocate, why different now to anytime, you know, I grew up through the 70s and I see my kids now they have far more opportunities than I did. They have so much at their fingertips, you know, that they can use to develop themselves. When I was a kid. I always say this. I’m getting old now, Jane, but when it was homework time, I was on My bike down to the library might be fishing trying to find the answers when now they can just google so they’ve got opportunities. They’ve got things that we just didn’t have. So why do you think that we’re making more of a fist of it now than than ever before?
Jane Evans [12:15]
There’s so much more pressure on children now they are because because of the media, they’re much more aware of how perfect they need to be. And none of us are perfect. And you know, from tiny now we are assessing children in in early years education every step of the way in education. They’re assessed because there’s so much in the media about the perfect you know, what is perfection, looking perfection behaving in a perfection way being successful. You can’t just go play football. You’ve got to be David Beckham. You can’t just, you know, go play tennis. You’ve got to be Serena, Serena Williams and obviously a lot of this comes from from the parents and from the messages that Children are get, you have to be slim, you have to have perfect straight hair, you have to be clever, you have to be intelligent, you have to be able to start you have to be able to speak French, you have to be good at sports you have, you know, I mean, it’s just this is what we’re doing to children at a time when adults also are experiencing all this stress and are therefore much less emotionally present in the lives of the children. And that’s where the real problem is coming. But he’s
David Ralph [13:27]
kind of true. I take it in a wider sense, but certainly in my household, I really drum into the kids, you know, to be unique to be authentic. Don’t play up to the crowd. If all your friends are doing something then don’t worry about it. Just do your own thing you know, and you will find that thing that is powerful and will lead to your own personal greatness, not the greatness that makes you Andy Murray, but it makes you Daniel Ralph, my son or whatever. So isn’t that sort of like a personalised thing Ken Can you know Take kids away from what you’re saying just by how we act as parents.
Jane Evans [14:04]
Of course, the most important people in a child’s life are their parents. But many parents you know, the the model that we have now is go to work, everybody has to go to work. So you have tiny children being put into daycare. And you know, poor exhausted stressed out adults picking them up hours and hours later. Yeah. And there’s not time for this back and forth for noticing children’s emotions because everything’s just pressure, pressure, pressure, get them in, get them fed, get them changed, get them bathed, getting them into bed story, if you’re lucky, a lot of children go to sleep with the TV on now or on an iPad. You know, this is this is the reality of our children’s lives. Of course there are exceptions. But you need to have that awareness yourself as an adult that this this matters more. And and even with with what you’re doing the message Just the subliminal messages from, from peers and from the media are different. They are be like this have this hair, you know, at the moment, all the young men have these massive beards. I know what that’s about, you know, it’s like a cloning thing. I can’t grow
David Ralph [15:18]
beard and I’m 45 I struggle with it. Yeah,
Jane Evans [15:20]
I mean, it’s my son was telling me what it is. I don’t know what it is. But you know, it’s, it’s we’ve become so we’re meant to fit in. Okay, so we are tribal beings. That’s good. But it within fitting in we have to have our uniqueness as you’re doing with your children valued and treasured and nurtured. And as a parent, the more you do that, obviously that will offset the external, you know, intrusions into that but it begins earlier than that it begins with tiny babies, how we respond to them. gives them the sense of how worthy they are with a tiny baby so you know the kind of things of leaving babies to cry not picking them up too much. That gives them the wrong message from the get go. So you know, as a parent, you can sometimes be offsetting that early start as well, which is hard.
David Ralph [16:10]
That’s interesting. You say that because I was a big advocate of, there’s nothing wrong with that baby Lee just crying. And my wife used to say, Oh, no, you can’t leave a baby crying. And we used to have this battle all the time. And I used to say that it’s fed, it’s dry. All it wants is attention. And it’s not going to get attention at two o’clock in the morning. And she was very, very different. So you think that actually my, my route is wrong on that?
Jane Evans [16:32]
Well, when you look at all the research, if you look at attachment theory, and you look at the neuroscience of how stressed a baby a baby cannot calm itself down, it doesn’t have that part of its brain so when it’s born, it’s got its survival brain, and it’s got a bit of the part has to do with emotional memories, and hardly any of its intelligent brain at all. And the only way a baby gets regulated in calm is well We bring our clever brain and our regulated body to them. And they get to be on our body. When we leave them to cry, they get flooded with stress hormones, so cortisol and adrenaline. So they’re the ones that you know, when you need to leap across, you know, a river to save a kitten on the other side, they fill you full of that, so that you can do that. So a baby will be in constantly pumped with that because they’re stressed and distressed. Eventually, they get so full of it, it knocks them out and they fall and they are knocked out by it. So they sleep. But But what we know now is that’s not a good way for a baby to but we didn’t know that. You know, it’s like I say to everybody, I did so many things wrong. My son is 24 I knew none of this stuff. So I’m not standing here saying oh, I did right. And I’ve you know, I’ve produced the human being I have, you know, he’s in my eyes, a spectacular human being. But I did loads of stuff wrong, but that’s where my curiosity came from, of, there has to be more than this. I don’t like to distress my baby, I don’t want to be cross with my child, I don’t want to fall out with my teenager. So that’s where my curiosity it’s been it’s been a parallel one about the people I’ve been working with, but also my own parenting, how can I nurture and hold the relationship with my child above and beyond everything else and turn out a great human being?
David Ralph [18:24]
So is the battle more inwardly? I’ve been reading a book recently, and it keeps on hitting home at your inner world, create your outer world. And so is it the way that we actually have to deal with ourselves that will help the relationships that we build up with our children and the outer world?
Jane Evans [18:45]
Always, always, always, always, always. usually takes about four or five sessions where I work with a with a parent or a carer and they look at me and they say, so this is really about me, isn’t it? And then I have to sit there quietly and let them just sit with that rather than jump in and go Yes, of course.
David Ralph [19:04]
Did you smile smugly when when when they say that?
Unknown Speaker [19:08]
No, I don’t because because it’s you know it.
Jane Evans [19:12]
But you have to you can only discover what you can discover when you’re ready. Yeah. But inside I kind of do my, my happy dance because then I’m like yes now. Now we can really start once we get a child can only do what it can do because it has a hugely underdeveloped brain. And it can only do what we teach it to do. So our response teaches the child how to behave, which is a really difficult lesson for people to hear because people you know, we want to blame children and we have pathologized children now so that we diagnose them you know, with all sorts of things that they don’t have, because we can now and great we can even give them a tablet for it. So Whoo.
David Ralph [19:59]
It is funny though. Because I’ve raised five kids now, and my three oldest ones have sort of moved out. And so we’re left with the last two. And we have people come up to us go, Oh, yeah, they’re gonna be teenagers soon. And we think, well, we don’t care. We’ve already been through that three times, and it makes no difference for us. But you can see how life chips I’m away from the age of about five onwards. Our daughter Ashley, she’s very ballsy. She’s She’s the life and soul of the house when she’s not there. You really notice it as soon as you walk through the door. When my son Daniel isn’t there you don’t notice it. He’s basically in his room on his Xbox playing FIFA, he’s very quiet and contained but actually he’s totally different. And when she was younger, we used to say to her, you know, Ashley, you can do anything you can do anything when you grow up, whatever you want to be you can do it and we sort of drum it into it and she used to go Yes, I’m Ashley Can, can can do anything. And then one day we were doing swimming lessons. And she was on the side of the pool and she went actually can swim and we went no actually can’t swim and she threw us Helping, and we had to sort of dive to the bottom saver and she also almost drowned. I almost drowned saving or pushing you up. And now we say to her, yeah, you can do that she goes on. I’m not very good at that. Oh, no, it’s going to be rubbish. And we go, Oh, why don’t you draw that dog? Like, I’m not very good at drawing dogs. And you can see it’s because she almost doesn’t want to put yourself out. Because everybody else in her group can’t do the things that she can easily so she’s holding yourself back. I find it fascinating and I can’t get through to her. But actually, Vizier talents, play to your talents and life. It’s gonna be easy for you somehow, but she’s, she’s stopping doing the things she can naturally do. Because he doesn’t want to seem different somehow. Is that common?
Jane Evans [21:42]
I wouldn’t say it’s common, but children are very intuitive and they are all about relationship. So she’s trying to explore what being in relationship with her peers mean? And she’s picked up in some way that maybe if I’m if I To good and to perfect, then I don’t fit in with my peer group, which makes her a very, very clever, very emotionally attuned child, which is a joy. And what I would focus on with her is how that makes her feel. So not trying to talk her into it out of it, because that just that just turns into blah, blah, blah. So all she’s hearing is our dogs off again, and he’s trying to convince me and, and they just switch off that’s, that’s a that’s a familiar text to her. But be more pull back and be with the feelings that she’s experiencing around this and then you’ll be on to something.
David Ralph [22:33]
I find this fascinating actually, everything you’re saying, I’ve got like devil and angel in my head, and it’s all going fine, because well, one of the things that I was, we were doing our family as well and I’ve been very sort of open with you. My son is 13 years old, and me and my wife don’t put him to bed at night. And our friends are going oh, that’s stupid. You shouldn’t be putting him to bed he should just walk off and go on his own and we we kind of backed off from other people because they just sort of like let their kids one Do often go to their room and sort of like get into bed in there. But we have a big routine and my daughter, we put her to bed at eight o’clock. And I sort of like, talk to her for a while. And we have these same little things that we’ve been doing for years. And then my son comes down at half, nine, and we take him up to bed. And all our friends are sort of saying to us that you shouldn’t be doing that. And it’s fascinating why they’re sort of projecting. I don’t mean to say their laziness, but because they rather sit there, watch the telly and let their kids just go off and we sort of put a bit of effort into it. They kind of hold us back somewhat is interesting, isn’t it? How people operate in their own environment, but try to push it onto you as well?
Jane Evans [23:36]
Yeah, again, you know, I find people I work with who really take on board this idea that the relationship with their child is more important than a tidy room or, you know, going to bed on time or whatever that they they can learn these things and they will learn these things. It’s how we teach them. And you know, what you’re doing is giving your child the very clear message you matter more More than anything, this, this, you know, we want to be present in your life for as long as we can be and what he will let you know when he’s had enough. But we have this bizarre thing about making our children independent, they must be independent. Children are not meant to be independent. They are meant to be emotionally dependent on us for ever and ever. And He will guide you, my son did you know there came a point where he said, Man, Thanks for reading to me for all these years, but you know, I think now Now you’re going to have to stop and
Unknown Speaker [24:34]
Jane Evans [24:37]
but but what you find is that people will form a queue to stop you or criticise things you’re doing that they wish that they were doing. And that’s where it comes from. It’s a bit like when people give up smoking, you know, all the smokers are like desperate to get you back on Team smoking. Because they know they can’t do it. So you just have to stick together and and turn To your child always does your child like it. Does he enjoy it? Yes, well, then it’s nobody else’s business and they need to just jog on, quite frankly.
David Ralph [25:07]
Well, let’s play some words. But I normally play round about this time in the show, and it takes us seamlessly into part two of Join Up Dots. This is Jim Carrey,
Unknown Speaker [25:16]
my father could have been a great comedian, but he didn’t believe that that was possible for him. And so he made a conservative choice. Instead, he got a safe job as an accountant. And when I was 12 years old, he was let go from that safe job. And our family had to do whatever we could to survive. I learned many great lessons from my father, not the least of which was that you can fail at what you don’t want. So you might as well take a chance on doing what you love.
David Ralph [25:42]
Now, I’ve been playing that literally on every show from about 200 onwards at Join Up Dots but i i’d be fascinated to hear your response. Is that a good thing that we should be getting into our children that kind of vibe or is that a bad thing?
Jane Evans [25:59]
What is failure. It’s just it’s just less. It’s the lesson isn’t it’s just learning, I don’t really, you know that what we’re doing now is we are raising generations of children who believe that you have to succeed. And we incentivize them to succeed and to, you know, move from the blue reading books to the read reading books, and you know, get the best score. And, again, when you look at the research on all of this, it shows that when the incentives are not around, the children do less well, because they’re not doing it because it feels good for them. They’re just doing it to get the prize or keep everyone off their backs or keep them happy. They experience no joy in it. It’s just to get to the next level. And as we know, when you get older, there are less less incentives every day you have to be very self motivated. And you do things that you really love the things you really love, you do well and you want to do again and again if you can. So it’s it’s a bit of a Red Herring and yeah, you know, failing is is much easier to cope with. I was talking with a mum the other day and she said, Oh, you know, one of my sons, he was so used to being praised all the time. He was the good boy, he did brilliantly. He always did well, he was praised all the way along. And then one day, I picked him up from school and he was sobbing and he wouldn’t come out for class. And the teacher said to me, he didn’t do well at maths today or whatever it was, and he can’t cope. So you know, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s not about what happens. It’s about how we hold the children through it. And, you know, incentivizing children is what we do with dogs, you know, sit and we give you a dog treat. It’s not about that internal state, which is, you know, I can tell from what you’re talking about, you’re much more curious about
David Ralph [27:46]
so so what about this rubbish thing that really annoys me where your kids go off to a sporting event, they come back, they’ve come last because they’re just rubbish but like a winners medal. It’s not a bad thing because I always say Have you got fat you rubbish but about everybody gets one
Unknown Speaker [28:05]
Jane Evans [28:08]
I wouldn’t call it a winners medal but I would call it a turning up and, and you know showing up metal like get something sure but but you know what don’t give anybody anything just do it for the sheer joy of it and you know in life as adults, we are all looking to earn our money from doing things that we love. Okay, I don’t know if I’m going to make any money next month looking at my debt No, actually next month, I won’t make that much money. It’s December. But you know what, I’ll still be happy because I’ll be able to do things I love next month. So no one’s gonna come pat me on the head. You know, it will be a very reward dry month, but I’ll keep going because I’m doing stuff I love and and it fills me up and I feel good on the inside. So, you know, I just rather get away with the whole reward. Anyway, but but when you make things when you make the what the one person the winner, then of course they’re all losers. And then the winner has the pressure to be the winner next time and next time and next time and to have this removal from being with the losers, you know, when we call people a loser. It’s a really detrimental, nasty thing to say to somebody. But you
David Ralph [29:23]
should have a winner though, isn’t it? Isn’t it good might say, Rinaldo, he’s been working for years and years and years and every day he turns up, as you say, and he’s got to the top he’s the world’s best isn’t that the right way to have it? But Usain Bolt is the world’s best because of all the effort. It’d be rubbish if everybody just
Jane Evans [29:44]
try as hard but never, you know, for whatever reasons not have the talent of Usain Bolt or Ronaldo, but they might be a damn sight happier. I mean, I don’t know about their personal lives at all, but you often find a lot of the most successful musicians Movie Stars sports people suffer with mental illness. You know, some die from suicide, some, you know, we put these people on a pedestal. But the more successful you get, the more isolated you become because people don’t know how to treat you anymore. They don’t know how to be around you. And then you your worth becomes your status and then you’re on the road to hell, quite frankly.
David Ralph [30:22]
But that’s not their issue, is it their issues that they’ve they’ve gone for something, they found the thing that they’ve loved, they’ve worked really hard, they develop their natural talents, and they start reaping rewards because the way everybody else responds to them that that’s their issue, isn’t it?
Jane Evans [30:39]
Well, it is, but it impacts you. I mean, even myself in with the modest success that I’ve had, and it is very modest. So far, I you know, I’ve discovered that some people don’t want to know me because I’m doing well some people don’t want to know me because I’ve done a TED talk or all they want to know is well how do you get one you know Oh, how do you get on television? or How did you know? But they you lose people along the way, the more that you succeed is my personal journey.
David Ralph [31:09]
And how did you know I don’t want to know the sort of details of how you did these things. But how did you develop your confidence levels to go on to like a TED talk? Because that was the first time that we spoke. And I remember you saying, Oh, I’m going to do a TED talk next week and you sounded even in email sense kind of on edge. You were kind of thinking Oh, Blimey, this is this is gonna be something worth doing. But I’m up slightly out of my comfort zone. How did you push fruit from those things?
Jane Evans [31:41]
I think it’s just a journey of believe it, you know, it’s a journey to good enough. That’s what it is. That’s what it is. This has been my journey. And you know, my I have a coach Devin Anderson, and he has he’s got me on the road, too. Good enough. One of the first sessions we did together he made me say to him, I am good enough and I couldn’t say it. And this was only like a matter of months ago, I could not say I am good enough, I sat for silence. And you know, he kept going with me and eventually I managed to mumble it. Now I can say I am more than good enough. I wrote it down every day. I believe it. I’ve even had enough tattooed on my hand because a have had enough and be you know, I have to own that I have worked extremely hard to learn from the people that I have sat within their deepest, darkest moments, and the children and adults and I have studied myself for 11 years, neuroscience, interpersonal neurobiology, attachment, all these things I’ve taught myself. So if I haven’t got enough to be standing on that, on that TEDx stage now then when will I so is it Now I have the belief that you know, I’m not perfect, but I’m more than good enough. And the stuff that I’m trying to do now is so important. I have to get over myself in order to do it.
David Ralph [33:11]
This is a fundamental part of characters across the globe, every single person that I have spoken to on Join Up Dots has this moment of, I’m not worthy, or that there’s something rooting boom to that feeling of all their efforts shouldn’t be rewarded, like other people get. It’s really strange, isn’t it that you can see, but you’ve done 11 years, you put yourself into that situation. You’ve learned not only from the books, but you’ve learned from experience and you still was struggling to say, it’s good enough.
Jane Evans [33:44]
I’m good enough. Yeah, I was I was because you see the constant thing I have, especially when I became self employed, and I put myself out there as a trainer and a speaker and a writer. I would get people running up the road to say to me, so what are you and I’d say Well, you know, I’m a trauma parenting specialist and earliest specialists. They say no, but what are you? Are you a psychologist? You’re not a psychologist, you a psychiatrist or social worker? Are you a paediatrician? Are you? How can you talk about this stuff? You’re none of those things. I literally and I still get it today sometimes people, people, you know, can’t wait to get to me to say all that stuff to me. And it used to massively derail me, I’d be like, Oh, my God, no, I’m not all those things. How can I stand talk about neuroscience? How can I, you know, someone’s going to find me out for a fraud, and that and that was my journey for about at least two years. You know, the not been good enough, I’m going to be found out I’m a fraud. And, you know, then again, you know, sometimes it’s the messages that other people have given me that have helped me own what I am and know that, yeah, I’m not perfect, but this stuff has got to be out there. And I seem to have to be one of the voices that’s doing it. So again, get over yourself, Jane, and get on that stage and undo it because you know what, I say to myself I say, the children can’t get on the stage, the children have no voice at all. So if you don’t do it, you’re letting them down. And then I can do anything.
David Ralph [35:10]
I tell you what next time somebody says to you, Jane Evans, you’re not qualified to talk about on that subject. You say to them, go and listen to Join Up Dots. That guy talks every single day on subjects that he’s got no idea about, and it doesn’t matter does it? If you’re willing to put yourself out there you are. You’re building connections and that’s the key part everything isn’t it? You’re showing what is possible and I think that’s the key thing for what I’m doing and what you’re doing as well. It’s not the minute details of what you know in your head is the fact that you are putting yourself out there.
Jane Evans [35:45]
Yeah, I mean, my I try to move people’s heads but also their hearts. So I give them intellectual information and knowledge. But But I if you don’t move their hearts, then they are not going to go and change what they Due to the children that they’re bringing up, or they, you know, they’re they’re teaching or they’re the social worker four or whoever the people are that come to my events. They’re not going to do that you have to do both. And somebody’s got to do it because too many children are suffering and too many parents are struggling. So you know, if it’s me, then fine. I’m good to go now.
David Ralph [36:22]
But that’s a key competence thing, isn’t it? The fact that you’re saying in December or may not be earning any money, but hey, that doesn’t matter. I’m here to do this. When did you realise that it was your thing, but it really was the part that Jane Evans was made to play?
Jane Evans [36:41]
I think about two years ago, you know, I’ve been I’ve been doing all of this for four years now. And the first two years were just such misery and fear. My daily life was misery, fear, Misery, Misery, fear. You know, I’d been used to having a salary. I’d been raised in a household where There were massive anxieties around money as a child because there was five of us and no money so you know money is a is a is a force God I have to worship and to suddenly not have a salary because I my post was ended I was made redundant because they couldn’t get any more funding I was working in domestic violence at the time was like being dropped off a cliff. And I was utterly utterly terrified every day for about two years and therefore made loads of wrong decisions tried to align myself with the wrong people took the wrong energy into you know, if I got some business connections, I took completely the wrong energy into it. So you know, it was just it was just miserable.
David Ralph [37:46]
Why did you do it? Jane? Two, two years. And you know, I’m in a situation now where my life is very, very nice and I’m having a lovely time. And I literally can do the work when I want. I can have afternoon I Basically, I live the dream live, and I’m earning quite a lot of money doing it. Now, even though I talk to people and I coach them, but you can’t quite believe that you can have your cake and eat it. And I say to them, if there’s a cake in front of you, what’s the point of it, you’ve got to eat it. So just eat the cake and just sort of move on and move away and eat another cake as well. Now, what pushed you through that? Was it a belief that you could see other people doing what you wanted to do? Was it a belief but it just had to be done? What pushed you through those dark times?
Jane Evans [38:32]
Yeah, some of it was I could see other people doing similar stuff, but not my stuff. And I, I would look at them and think there has to be a way I know my stuff. This is very important information for the world. And quite early on. I wrote a children’s book for children who’ve lived with domestic violence and quite early on I managed to get a publishing contract for it with Jessica Kingsley. So that was a big wake up. For me, I was like, Whoa, I must be good at something. And I just yeah, that dogged determination that I didn’t know what it was going to look like I started off by delivering training. I had never, you know, don’t tell anybody. But when I started delivering training, I’d virtually never, ever, ever delivered training in my life, I just decided that I was going to be a trainer. And you know, that’s, that’s also a massive part of my journey is I just go Do you know what? In 2014, I said to myself, next year, what will next year look like? Yeah, I’m gonna travel and speak internationally, and I’m going to be on television, and I just put it out there. I don’t write it down. I don’t make lists. I just literally just say it to myself. And then I said to a few of the people. By March this year, I’d been part of a TV series, and I’ve been to India and spoken. So now I don’t see any barriers. I just see. This is the thing. And I’m not sure when it’s coming. But it’s definitely coming. You know, doing my TEDx. I was definitely going to do a TEDx. I didn’t know it was going to be this year. No way did I know that it presented I got help I prepared myself I did it. So now I just I I think it is that thing of getting past myself and all the negativity that I have endlessly fed myself. For far too long is of no interest to me now. I just don’t go drink at that pool anymore. doesn’t interest me?
David Ralph [40:22]
Have you got rid of all your negative mates as well? Did you Cove a negative flock?
Jane Evans [40:29]
I think probably the scared people in my life have either quieten down they’ve learned not to bother to say that stuff to me. Oh, my God, how you gonna do that? Because I’m not interested. Or Yeah, they’ve they’ve fallen by the wayside. Because it just I wouldn’t even have a conversation or people say to me, Well, how are you going to do that? And I say, do you know what i have no idea, but I definitely will. So just, you know, look out or move aside. You know, it might sound arrogant sometimes, but if I don’t believe it, it won’t happen. And it was Come when I do believe it always happens. And it always comes.
David Ralph [41:04]
Because we’ve got a platform, join, join up dreams, basically dream starters Academy, and we’re launching it big time in January. But it’s been running for a little while I’ve been testing it out and getting it really fighting fit. And my dream for that is that I connect a million people across the globe, to support each other to get going with their dreams and their passions and giving themselves an absolute ocean of positivity, but they can swim in and nobody’s going to save as a crap idea. You know, what, why are you doing that? It’s literally going to be a place where even if it’s critical comments, it’s critical comments in the right way and it will push people on which is so powerful. And when I wrote that down, because I’m different from you, I actually write the things down and I pin it up in front of me, and I wrote a million people by 2020. And as I look at it, I think the hell am I gonna do that? I just don’t know. You know, it’s hard to get 10 people and then 20 people and then 50 people But it’s doable but there’s no reason why it’s not gonna be done and all I need is like people listening to this show going. I fancy a bit about I mean somebody it can do you can do anything can you join?
Jane Evans [42:13]
You? Absolutely Can I say all the time particularly to my son what what do you like what is the thing that excites you that gets you going that will mean that you will work till midnight and get up you know five the next morning and carry on and be glad to find that thing and then and then life is completely changed forever. You know, I I work every day gladly and happily do I work every day? Because I love what I do. And when I need to break you know, I have a maybe a couple of days away but mostly I don’t need a break because I love what I do. And if you utterly believe that that will be the thing of course it will happen. I honestly so often that that is the truth of my life now. Believe it obviously I work very, very hard. make things happen. But first, I fling the belief out there. And then I just go, you know, I’m always on catch up with the belief and it and it works. It just sometimes it takes time. I mean, you know, I wanted to be on a particular TV show, and it’s taken me a long time to get on it, but I got on it recently, and I will get back on it, you know? So if you don’t fling the belief out the door first, then you know, it’ll keep falling at your feet, you’ll just keep tripping over it.
David Ralph [43:27]
And then did you have a belief at one day he was gonna be on episode 459 of Join Up Dots. Was that a big was that a big dream for you? Always I can imagine I can imagine. And in typical lady fashion, you just lied to me. Right? And you just got away very easily. I probably didn’t do anything you say to me.
Jane Evans [43:47]
Now it’s a real it’s a real joy for me to you know, to be able to speak in this way because if finding people to even have these conversations with is quite hard actually.
David Ralph [43:57]
Do people want you to get into the deep stuff. That this sort of, because I, when I looked at your backstory, one of the things that sort of really jumped out to me was that you was a respite, foster carer. And I thought to myself, first of all, that’s the angle that I’m going to go for. And then I looked at it and I thought, No, actually, I don’t think I want to know about that area, because that is just part of your life. What I want to know is how you got to where you are now. Because every day you take a bigger step, you step into yourself every single day. And in many ways, it’s not as interesting what you were doing when you are doing now, do people want to sort of know the deep stuff more than hang on? What are you thinking about doing a softer noon that’s gonna make tomorrow better?
Jane Evans [44:38]
Ah, no, I find that people are not that curious about why I do what I do and how I’ve got to this point. And in a way I’m quite glad for that because I don’t necessarily want to share stuff from earlier on in my life. It doesn’t it doesn’t interest me anymore. You know, I could talk about Oh, yeah, I was in abusive relationships, blah, blah, blah. I’m over it. I’m really not that interested. Like you said, I’m interested in the So what can we do now? And what can I learn now? And and what can people show me that I can then use to help other people? And where do I go next? How do I get this? This all this information out there bigger, louder, clearer that people understand that most of us experienced anxiety in our childhood, some of us extreme anxieties I’m not, you know, you can you can also call it trauma. It’s very, very, very extensive is what all the findings are now, there’s something called the adverse childhood experiences study that took place in America and they they looked at 17,000 people in their 50s and did questionnaire with them. And they found out that many of them had experienced a level of adversity and it has huge impacts as you get older on your physical health, your mental health you Intelligence, your lifestyle, you know how you coat whether you drink, whether you smoke, whether you eat too much whether you eat too little. So you know, I just really want people to understand that whilst we can’t sometimes change what happened in our childhood, we do need to be aware. And then we need to a not revisit that on children who are around us because we can prevent this now, but also understand ourselves on what we need in order to be well healthy, effective adults.
David Ralph [46:29]
I was watching The Jungle Book recently with my daughter, and there’s there’s about 100 different versions of the Jungle Book. And my daughter said to me, a Mowgli was so lucky, wasn’t he? Oh, well, he doesn’t use that lucky he grew up in the jungle and she went, yeah, but nobody told him to go to bed. He just went to bed when he was tired, and he could do anything he wanted. And as I was sort of half watching this film, I was thinking to myself, you know, you’ve tapped into something you’ve tapped into something here, because, as humans, we self limit As adults, we give advice of what’s possible, but I can’t believe a wolf would do that a wolf would just be a wolf. And a bear would just be a bear. So you would live in the possibilities of what happens. And I thought to myself in a very deep moment, did Mowgli have a better start than the most of us because they were raised? He was raised by wolves, other than parents. What do you think about that? Jane Evans?
Jane Evans [47:25]
Well, that’s a very interesting and I tend to my children’s books I use animals in so you know, my animals in my books, they could do all sorts of things. Yeah, nice idea. The thing is, if you get parents who are brave enough to to raise you with 100%, kindness and compassion, and to not be pulled towards using reward systems and consequences, then you’re gonna have the best start in life. Anyway. It’s convincing parents on supporting them to believe that you can raise a polite, thoughtful, hardworking child without making them feel bad when they make a mistake. That’s really difficult. And you know, schools, even moreso schools are still very wedded to. If a child doesn’t do whatever they decide they have to do, then they are punished. You know, sometimes they’re excluded from school, but those are the children who need the most help. Not the biggest punishments, but you know, that’s a massive shift for people. But once we get that, then we’ll really be onto something.
David Ralph [48:35]
You know, I love the way you went. It’s a nice idea. And I heard I saw a big speech bubble come out of your head going, what is this guy talking about? This is just rubbish.
Jane Evans [48:47]
No, it’s great. This is I have a brain like this that goes off at tangents. So it’s great.
David Ralph [48:52]
Well, this is the part of the show that we’re gonna send you back in time. He’s literally brought you full circle to where you are now and it’s interesting this show because we haven’t Come back as far as we normally do, we pretty much stayed in the present, which is quite unusual. But this is the part of the show where we’re going to send you back in time to have a one on one with your younger self. And this is the part we called a sermon on the mind when we send you back in time to have a one on one with the younger Jane. And if you could speak to the young Jane, what advice would you give and what age would you choose as well? Well, we’re gonna find out because I’m going to play the theme tune and when it fades you up. This is the Sermon on the mic.
Unknown Speaker [49:32]
We go with the speed of the show.
Jane Evans [49:51]
I would say to Jane when she was about 11, I can I can remember I was sitting on a on a little bridge somewhere in the countryside. Getting over a stream. It was just a concrete block wedged over a stream. And I can remember thinking, I never want to be a grown up. I never want to grow up. And I think that you know, the Jane who was 11 I would say to her, it will be okay. It will be okay. If you hang on to the idea that you are good enough. It’s not about how you look. It’s not about having perfect hair. It’s not about being thin enough. It’s not about other people deciding if you are intelligent, if you speak well. It’s not about externally being perfection. what it’s all about is how you get to know yourself, how much compassion you show yourself. Because if you can’t show yourself compassion, you won’t have it readily and easily to give to other people and That’s the most important thing in life is how you treat other people, and how you take care of yourself but on the inside, because otherwise when you you’re in your 50s, you’ll spend your life doing meditation, doing yoga, doing mindfulness doing, flinging everything at yourself in order to feel well and healthy, and good enough. But you know what, if you start now 11, and you just see yourself inside as this amazing, beautiful potential. That means to do good in the world, but sometimes we’ll get things wrong, then that will get you through. Because if you mean to do good and you’re looking to do good, then that’s the light that will shine out of you. And that’s more beautiful than any external beauty. And just find the people that help you over the bumps in the road and that they’re there very quietly beside you and they keep going Leaving in you and check in with them. Don’t get distracted by the shiny, bright people that maybe are offering you things that that aren’t really there. Just keep the right people around you. But most importantly, build this amazing relationship with yourself and trust yourself, and then you’ll just be fine.
David Ralph [52:20]
Jane, what’s the number one best way our audience can connect with you?
Jane Evans [52:25]
Probably Twitter To be honest, I spend a lot of time on Twitter I’m at Jain parenting with a number two at the end is a great way to, to see what I’m up to and to connect with my messages and and what I’m putting out there.
David Ralph [52:40]
We’ll have all the links in the show notes. Jimmy, thank you so much for spending time with us today, joining up those dots. And please come back again when you have more dots to join up. Because I do believe that by joining up the dots and connecting our paths is the best way to build our futures. Jane Evans, thank you so much.
Jane Evans [52:56]
Thank you, David.
David Ralph [53:00]
Once again absolutely lovely guest we could have talked for hours about how I was raising my kids and now she didn’t agree and but no she’s an absolutely the line and if you’ve got any sort of issues with your own kids and stuff, drop her a line because she is somebody that is doing amazing stuff and it comes from the heart as well you can hear that on the show. Also, if you want to connect with me about the programme that we are launching on the first of January, called join up dreams a dream starters Academy is going to show you the steps directly to inbox into your ears and with direct connection with me how to start building your life and not going the bumpy route that me and Jane ran you will find the thing that you should be doing with life. And then we develop it until you are living the dream life. It’s a dream starters programme. If you’re interested in that, just send us an email at Join Up email@example.com we’ll put you on the list and then we’ll give you some more information near retirement. Thanks very much for listening. Cheers.
David doesn’t want you to become a faded version of the brilliant self you or wants to become. So he’s put together an amazing guide for you called the eight pieces of advice that every successful entrepreneur practices, including the two that changed his life. So, head over to Join Up dots.com to download this amazing guide for free and we’ll see you tomorrow on Join Up Dots.