Copywriting Expert Francis Nayan Joins Us On The Steve Jobs Inspired Join Up Dots Podcast
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Introducing Francis Nayan Copywriting Expert
Copywriting expert Francis Nayan is today’s guest joining us on the Steve Jobs inspired Join Up Dots business podcast.
He is a copywriter, and travelling entrepreneur, who has built his business without even first having an online presence.
As he says “I create evergreen, automated, behaviour-driven emails, funnels, and campaigns for coaches, mentors, and e-commerce businesses who want to make more money with email.
My goal is to create an email strategy that provides you a steady stream of cash flow and at least 30%+ of your total revenue by email alone.
I use a blend of gold-standard copy-writing tactics, expert marketing insight, wolf-like sales psychology, and tailor-made copy written to the desires of your customers.”
That is of course what he does, so let’s hear some more about who he is.
How The Email Writing Dots Joined Up For Francis
As he says “I’m a copywriter from Memphis, Tennessee currently living in Budapest, Hungary.
I started my freelance writing career as a kindergarten teacher in Budapest.
I landed my first big client with a professional sports league and transitioned into full-time writer, specialising in email copy and sales pages.
I’ve steadily risen from a struggling freelancer scrapping for ‘egg and bread money’ in a dirty Budapest apartment to earning well over 6-figures – all while travelling the world and writing just a few emails a day for my clients.
Granted, travelling to 20+ countries may not be on people’s agendas right now during the pandemic — however he believes that all our listeners can use their own businesses to quickly adapt to the environment around you, whilst of course continually thriving in your business.
So what made him choose this line of work, and was it as surprise for him that it started to pay off?
And has the pandemic of 2020 made any difference to his profitability or is it just business as usual?
Well lets find out as we bring onto the show to start joining up dots with the one and only Mr Francis Nayan
During the show we discussed such weighty topics with Francis Nayan such as:
Why so many people start an online business that are based around “new skills” instead of working within their true life experience.
Why most people are unhappy due to the situation they find themselves in, NOT because of what they are actually doing in life.
Francis shares how he built his business by working hard on relationships not by selling hard.
Why the world has such an issue in putting their faces and voices out there and the reasons why it is so important to do so to build connection.
How To Connect With Francis Nayan
You can also check our extensive podcast archive by clicking here – enjoy
Full Transcription Of Francis Nayan Interview
When we’re young, we have an amazing positive outlook about how great life is going to be. But somewhere along the line we forget to dream and end up settling. Join Up Dots features amazing people who refuse to give up and chose to go after their dreams. This is your blueprint for greatness. So here’s your host live from the back of his garden in the UK. David Ralph.
David Ralph [0:25]
Yes, hi there. Good morning. Good morning, my young friends and welcome to Join Up Dots. Thank you so much for being here in ever increasing numbers wherever you are listening. Make sure you just tell one person if you tell one person we have the world’s biggest show, and we can overthrow governments. That’s how it works. Well, in today’s show, we’ve got a guest who’s got that kind of life. I think so many people who start building online businesses, one he can travel wherever he wants, he can do what he wants, and pretty much it seems he’s a free spirit, but it may not be that case. Certainly with the pandemic. At the moment, there might be certain restrictions. But he certainly is a copywriter and travelling entrepreneur who has built his business without even first having an online presence it seems. As he says I create evergreen automated behaviour driven emails, funnels and campaigns for coaches, mentors and e commerce businesses who want to make more money with email. My goal is to create an email strategy that provides you a steady stream of cash flow and at least 30% plus of your total revenue by email alone. I use a blend of gold standard copywriting tactics, expert marketing, insight war flight sounds, psychology, I’m not even sure what it is and tailor made copy written to the desires of your customers and that is, of course what he does. So let’s hear some more about who he is. He is actually a copywriter from Memphis, Tennessee, currently living in Budapest, Hungary, and he started his freelance writing career as a kindergarten teacher in Budapest. past and he landed his first big client with a professional sports league and transitioned into full time writer specialising in email, copy and sales pages. As he says I’ve steadily risen from a struggling freelancer, scrapping for egg and bread money in a dirty Budapest apartment to earning well over six figures, all while travelling the world and writing just a few emails a day for my clients granted, travelling to 20 plus countries may not be on people’s agendas right now during the pandemic. However, he believes that all our listeners can use their own businesses to quickly adapt to the environment around them, whilst that code is continually thriving. So what made him choose his line of work? And was it a surprise for him that it started to pay off? And has the pandemic of 2020 made any difference at all to his profitability? Or is it just business as usual? Well, let’s find out as we bring onto the show to start joining up dots with the one and only Mr. Francis Nayan. Good morning Francis. How are you?
Francis Nayan Copywriting Expert [3:03]
Good morning. Good morning.Wow, that was a mouthful right there. I feel like I need to like, pair you know, paraphrase everything and like edited down to that sounded like really epic. I love everything about that. Yeah, thank you for having me so much. I’m so excited to be here with you with all of you guys and yeah, get the get the talk in a little bit.
David Ralph [3:21]
Hey, it’s gonna be a good one. I can sense this already. Well, I’ve got some questions that I want to hit you. Right, where are you still in Budapest? Are you Budapest, Hungary because I’ve seen pictures of you with your rucksack and it looks like you could travel the world. So are you still in Budapest?
Francis Nayan Copywriting Expert [3:36]
Yeah, yeah, I pretty much just live here in Budapest. Now. I have that whole kind of expat lifestyle, have a permanent residency card and all of that I do travel a whole lot though. So I like my whole goal is to always just like go to new place once a month, maybe twice a month if I’m feeling real keen, but yeah, like to kind of just flex this kind of freedom that I have. Yeah, took a whole while to get here. But it’s been a wild ride.
David Ralph [4:04]
I love this full of I think it’s called hub travelling where you set yourself up a base, and then you go out from the base and then you come back. And I speak to so many people. I’ve lived in the United Kingdom all my life. And I know people that go, Okay, we’re going to live in Peru in 2020. And they choose one town, and then they go off and then they spend weeks in other towns, but they’ve got that ability to come back into their hub for a year, and then they choose another country. Does that kind of appeal to you? Or is Budapest really your spiritual home now?
Francis Nayan Copywriting Expert [4:38]
Budapest is like officially like my spiritual home and I don’t really see myself leaving it anytime in the near future, especially with my you know, I just got my residence card like, like 10 days ago or something. So I never heard of like with hub travelling, it’s I guess that’s kind of what I wanted to do before I became a freelancer. As copywriter, you know, when I was a teacher, a whole, like whole plan was actually to teach in a new country every year and it was like five countries in five years. But now I just kind of fell in love with the place. I think that was Yeah, the club travelling was like my original plan. But not Budapest is home, like, yeah, it’s kind of where I lay my hat now.
David Ralph [5:21]
Well, good for you. So when you’re when you’re laying your hat down, let’s let’s get an overview of what your days like. Because I do know that so many listeners think that it’s all about getting up writing in a gratitude journal was meditating for an hour, and then dealing with about, you know, two hours of work, and then nothing after that. Give us an overview of actually how long your days are.
Francis Nayan Copywriting Expert [5:46]
Yeah, well, my days really vary depending on on how much I really want to work. So I’m known as a pretty fast writer. So I like to think that I can get a lot of work done in you know, half a day as opposed to like a full day and you Yeah, I mean of course there are you know has like all these you know, online business owners entrepreneurs have these like crazy habits like waking up at 5am exercising, meditating cold showers. I’m not gonna lie, I totally drank the self development tea and I do a lot of those things. But you know, it’s not perfect. And, you know, lately I’ve been trying to be more intentional, I guess, my routine and everything but it’s definitely not just working like two hours a day. I think one of the biggest eye opening lessons I learned in the past two years or so two and a half years I’ve been doing this is that to have like a really good business and to really do work well. It takes dedication and you know, working two hours a day, I guess it can happen but you know, to work those two hours a day you need to put in like, like countless hours in definitely had my fair share. 50 6070 hour weeks. But yeah, I guess there’s two hour days is a reward, but it’s not like the the The only thing that happens,
David Ralph [7:01]
because what I’ve discovered over the years, Francis is the really successful people basically do nothing other than the 5% of what they’re brilliant at, they get rid of everything else. And they can literally come into an office just do about one thing. And they know that that is the value point of the day, and they don’t then try to crash other stuff in, especially if meetings drop off, they don’t then go, oh, let’s do something else. I’m gonna go off and play golf. I mean, because I know that one thing, but they’re really, really good. And I think that is one of the issues that people have when they’re starting online businesses. They don’t choose something that they’re already reasonably good at, and then become very good at by trying to create something from scratch that they’ve had no experience in at all. Do you find that the same? Yeah,
Francis Nayan Copywriting Expert [7:55]
yeah, definitely. Definitely. I think it’s one of those. I’m not sure what they do. good analogy for this is for this is but I think it’s like kind of throwing yourself to the lions, you know, like trial by fire, I’m just gonna try everything and anything. And you know you kind of spin your wheels doing that for a long time. I know a lot of my friends who just started out recently, them trying, you know, they’re trying out everything, whether it’s like SEO consultancy or online coaching or copywriting or something, when in reality, the skill that they can really monetize and grow a business around and create their quote unquote freedom lifestyle is probably a skill and an interest that they already have.
David Ralph [8:32]
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I totally agree with that. So give given sort of examples of skills about you know, from your expert viewpoint that your colleagues have already got, but they’re missing that they’re walking away from it. Yeah, so
Francis Nayan Copywriting Expert [8:48]
I actually have one friend who she’s very similar to me where she was, she did a lot of journalism. Growing up, back in the states you did like to Roper like high school, newspaper and college newspaper and had like an internship and she studied journalism in university. And she came she came to me asking, you know, what should I do? Like, I like talking about this. I like listening to this, this is what I’m like into. And I said, you know, why don’t you just go back to writing? I mean, you already know the process. You’re a great researcher, you know what it’s like to have writer’s block into, you know, beat that day in day out, and you already know how to write well, so why don’t you do that? And, you know, kind of blew her mind. Strangely, because it seems so obvious to me because she’s never really thought about it. She’s like, I don’t know if I want to be a journalist. You don’t have to be a journalist you can write about what you’re interested about. And you know, she asked like, I don’t even know what I’m interested in. So then I actually asked her to like open up her YouTube YouTube account to see what kind of like you know, videos or she’s been watching. And you know, she realised she learned she loves writing about like veganism and healthy eating. And I was like, Why don’t you just try to contact some people who you can write articles for? and just start out that way. You know, at least you can just begin. I think that’s the thing that most people just need to do start whatever it is just start. And yeah, yeah, I mean, that was about a month ago. And last time I heard from her she’s, yeah, she’s had a few clients here and there, she’s actually enjoying what she’s doing. So and yes, as far as the process now. So I’m happy I was kind of a part of
David Ralph [10:26]
that is the big key to everything because I now see 100%. And once again, I spend so many wheels in the early days, that my two talents are the ability to talk and communicate, and also to be able to break down vast amounts of information into very small bite sized chunks. Now, I used to be a trainer, I used to stand up doing presentations on very boring subjects, and having to break down those subjects into a way that people would understand and retain literally all my business now is about breaking down complex issues so that people understand them and they walk away so that they can do it themselves. Totally what I used to do, but it’s now online, and for a long time I rejected it because it was almost like, oh, I’ve done that. I’ve done that. And it didn’t make me happy. I want to do something else. But more often than not, it’s the situation that doesn’t make you happy, isn’t it? Francis? It’s the office you work in. It’s the people you work with. It’s always something else more than what you’re doing.
Francis Nayan Copywriting Expert [11:33]
Oh, yeah. 100% 1% I think I never even really thought about it that way. Because you know, similar to my friend, I always loved writing I always loved researching learning about like, different cultures, different people, their lingo kind of what they love to do, what are their their past times and really makes them tick. And you know, that’s why I studied anthropology in university because I was I was thinking this is about the study of culture. And I love doing that. And you know, I went to a writing intensive University. So I was thinking, you know, put two and two together, I guess I can do that as the rest of my life. But I guess we’ll never do it was like the situation, you know, I didn’t want to write in a library and have like a stack of like philosophy books. By my side of things I wasn’t really interested in giving it to people who, you know, probably didn’t even really like it or, you know, I just didn’t even really personally like so. But they know once. Yeah, similar to what you said. It’s just once I got out of that environment, and I was using this skill in a different context, then the whole world just like opened up, it was like kind of mind blowing really it was.
David Ralph [12:39]
Well, let’s listen to Jim Carrey. And then we’ll be back with Francis,
Jim Carrey [12:42]
my father could have been a great comedian, but he didn’t believe that that was possible for him. And so he made a conservative choice. Instead, he got a safe job as an accountant. And when I was 12 years old, he was let go from that safe job. And our family had to do whatever we could to survive. I learned many Great lessons from my father, not the least of which was that you can fail at what you don’t want. So you might as well take a chance on doing what you love.
David Ralph [13:09]
Right. Okay, so let’s talk about the possible he said he didn’t believe what is possible. When did you really understand because I think we have online business. There’s two things. Number one, we have to totally believe in it ourselves. And I think a lot of the newbies kind of go in in a wishy washy way that the consumer kind of pick up on and secondly, we have to make it as simple as possible and I think the newbies make it too complicated with very difficult sales funnels and email marketing and things just whizzing here whizzing bear. When did you actually believe in yourself that you could make this happen process?
Francis Nayan Copywriting Expert [13:50]
Oh, yeah. So I love telling this story because it was just like the first time everything actually worked. And the first time I could believe that could actually do it was actually when I Got my first paid project which was like, you know, I went on Upwork which was I think this is before it was difficult to have a profile, a profile and you know, I sent out like 100 pitches or whatever I thought it was like never gonna happen for me. And then if someone just took a chance on me in the project was like a 500 word blog post on like it or something. And you know, I know nothing about it. I didn’t, I had to Google it. I’m still like millennial, but I’m like, I’m like that of technology at the same time. So I remember I was like, Here I am writing this like 500 word blog post and I am just doing a horrible idea. It’s taking me like five hours to write 500 words, and I’m so like, I don’t even like it. And eventually I finished it up and I sent the project to you know, the company, and they said, All right, good enough work. Here’s you know, $5 and are still remember when I got like this phone notification from Upwork or PayPal, I forgot this one. You know, I received $5 from, you know, this company, and I just got so excited. It was like this feeling of like, Oh shit, I can actually do this, like, I technically have a business, it’s $5 but I just actually made money writing that wasn’t with like, you know, it wasn’t like with a company like attach to, and it just blew my mind. And it was even greater just because, you know, it was like on Upwork so they take like, 20% of your earnings. So it was really more like $4 but then when I transferred it to my paypal or to my card, you know, they take another fee, so it was really more like $3 and like 70 cents. And But yeah, I still I still remember looking at that $3 and 70 cents and thinking, wow, I can actually do this.
David Ralph [15:47]
I still remember 23 P, but I created a website with some AdSense on it. And I go into my adsense account and then suddenly there was 23 pence in there which is like you know nothing and I started pressing f5 all the time thinking, oh, there might be more money waiting here. And it really yeah blew my mind. But actually, yes, it does work. If you create content, if you create value, people will find you. And literally everything that I do in Join Up Dots is based around being found very much SEO driven, which means that if somebody is actually looking for you, I think you’re halfway there. Now what I was interested in when I went over to your website and looked at it, you actually had to be pushed into getting a website which seems to me like one of the sort of the obvious things to have. How did you actually do this without that and why were you reluctant me pushed into it?
Francis Nayan Copywriting Expert [16:47]
Yeah, yeah. So I guess I’m a kind of a strange guy in that I like, did not use a website for a long time. And even nowadays, I don’t even really like using social media, which is kind of weird, but Before I got that website, it was mainly through relationships. And I used, you know, Instagram in a way that I just put copywriter, like in my bio or something and I would like post a photo and like hashtag copywriting or hashtag like, you know, something and one of those like 2030 hashtags people use. But eventually people just reach out to me and just try to connect with me in some way, I’m sure. I think more often than not, they were trying to sell me on something and some type of coaching or whatever, but I was able, I was able to create some really awesome connections and some relationships through that and get through those relationships. I was able to get more work and I was able to be found. Eventually, somebody said, you know, it’d be great for you to have a website. That way you can put up content on your blog or start growing your email list or Yeah, you know, of course, if I ever proposed a project to someone or, you know, if I’m, if I’m trying to get on the podcast or something, they’re gonna look at my work. website so somebody just said, Hey Fran just like put it up, like, have a little fun with it. You don’t have to do anything like crazy. You can even be bad as long as you have some words up there. But yeah, before the website, it was really just through relationships and showing up in different places. I’m very
David Ralph [18:18]
fascinated by this ability to create business without building content. I was speaking to a lady the other day, and he seems so obvious. You think this is wonderful. And basically she is a healthy eating kind of coach. And so she puts Google alerts on the coding all speakers and emails conferences, because she knows about the people that are going to these conferences are interested in healthy eating. So she appears on the stage and then she signs people up and she doesn’t do anything other than that her website gets no traffic at all. She doesn’t do social media. She just goes where the people are already interested in what she wants. Now that seems black The OBS doesn’t it, it really does.
Francis Nayan Copywriting Expert [19:02]
Yeah, Yeah, it does. It does. I think it was one of those things that kind of blew my mind when someone was like Francis join us join like Facebook groups and try to find work. And you know, just like guess just me being like an idiot or something. I was just trolling like copywriting groups, or, you know, job boards or something like that. And, you know, someone posts a job offer or a project offer, and it’s like flies dawning and they’re gonna, their, their inbox is like, absolutely broken. It wasn’t until someone was like, why don’t you go into the groups of like, where the people who you want to hang out who you want to work with, hang out that? Yeah, things just started to change. And I started to connect with even more people. And I wasn’t just relying on like referrals. It was more like me just being human, and like connecting with them in that way.
David Ralph [19:51]
Which is the thing, isn’t it? You know, I get so many pitches on LinkedIn. I hate LinkedIn for it. And it’s dead. There’s no No preparation, there’s no warm up, they basically just connect with me and try to flog me something. And every relationship that I’ve built has turned into a profitable client. Number one, I always focus on trying to give as much value to them first of all, and secondly, I always worked hard that by become my friends, that that they don’t end up as clients, they become my mates. And I think I’ve been very, very successful in that because that is how word of mouth starts. That is how businesses grow. That’s how we effort disappears because you are focused in on building relationships and helping people and that seems to be, you know, such a cornerstone of your business, Francis.
Francis Nayan Copywriting Expert [20:48]
Yeah. 100% 100% I mean, I’m not sure what happened, but something within like the last year, year and a half I went from just trying to be a freelancer getting client after client after client and just getting projects done, like, over and over again to just being someone who is friendly and trying to create a long term relationship. And because of that, I think it It shows that I actually care personally about the people I work with. But I’m also not just treating them as if, you know, another testimonial on my website or, you know, another five out of five rating on like, you know, like, my Facebook reviews or something. I even had Facebook reviews, I don’t even know I said that but like, yeah, you know, I think once once I stopped doing that, and I focus more on just being more authentic and who I was then one I started feeling a lot better. But then I think I put a lot of my clients and people I worked with at ease. And it also just attracted the people who I like working with because you know, I think copywriters, freelancers You know, there’s all these processes and stuff. assumes that we’re taught funnels, and this is doing a sales call. And, you know, this is how you scale and all this stuff, once I kind of just, you know, took a step into doing my business the way I want to and building relationships that way, then everything just changed, man. It was just like, you know, I just got more work and better work. And I actually had like friends in the industry instead of just, you know, clients and, you know, facebook, facebook acquaintances, and things like that.
David Ralph [22:32]
Yeah, because I had an epiphany. And it’s been an absolute game changer. And he’s one of these kind of moments you think, why didn’t I think of this before, but if you go back into Join Up Dots, history, there’s loads of sort of Facebook groups and support groups, and I was doing Facebook Live, and I was doing all the kind of things that people sort of tell you that you need to do. And it suddenly dawned on me, but I was giving 99% of my effort away to people but actually deserve it. And what I mean by that is, as a businessman, you’ve got to really focus your hundred percent of effort onto people that actually buy your stuff. And so now, instead of having Facebook groups and communities for people that aren’t my clients, I focus all my effort in my clients. And the everybody else does get responses and emails and stuff. But I don’t put any of the effort into other people at all. It’s all about the people that I’m already working with. And it’s been a game changer. It’s been a game changer for my health, for my mental state for my clients as well because bash sharing with people because they know that they paid money, and they got three times the value that they perhaps expected from that. It’s, it’s simple again, Francis, isn’t it? It’s focusing your efforts in the people into the people that actually kind of deserve you.
Francis Nayan Copywriting Expert [23:55]
Yeah, yeah, definitely. Definitely. I mean, I think was it a madman On the show Mad Men, Roger Sterling said, when it comes down to it 99.9% of business is no goes down to I don’t like that guy, or I like that guy. Yeah. And I, when I first saw that, I think it kind of went, like, I thought about it, it does ring true. I mean, the people who I kind of outsource my work to, whether that’s the copy or some other part of my business, it’s people who I genuinely like, and just trust and you know, the interactions we have on slack or in a Facebook message or something, it’s, it doesn’t really feel like a client client call or like a project interaction or something. It’s more like two people who are just really passionate about their work. And, you know, want to, you know, help each other succeed. So, you know, in for them, they communicate well, you know, they treat you know, they respect me, and it goes both ways, and it’s just a lot more fun when you actually enjoy it. The people you’re working with, you’re not just treating people like another, you know, another, another number, not another number. And another testimonial.
David Ralph [25:10]
Yeah, I agree totally. Well talking to Francis and we will be back with him after these words.
Unknown Speaker [25:18]
Are you ready to make a full time living online? Check out the amazing Join Up Dots business coaching.
Unknown Speaker [25:23]
Hello, my name is Alan. And I’ve just completed the excellent eight week course with David before I started working with David Actually, I had no idea at all, where to start. I had a lot of ideas about while I probably thought was going to be good business, David was able to help me through that though, to find that passion. Within literally minutes. We had we had a business idea. And for the last seven weeks, we’ve been building on it and building on it and the position I’m in now, I don’t think I’ve ever got here on my own because of the amount of information that David gives the structure. He’s got the full package. And he explains it in a way that I can understand. His support is is phenomenal. I feel like this is the way business is supposed to work. David helped me understand, okay, what were the next logical steps that I should do? How should How can I get this up and running? So I would really recommend this as an excellent course helping you if you have an idea if you have no idea, really teasing that out and some of the practicalities and steps to take to really launch your business, whether as a full time job or as a side hustle. So it was really excellent. I recommend it for anybody thinking about setting up their own business. I don’t think so an exaggeration to say David will totally save you years. Thank you, David, for your amazing help and support which keeps on going. And we certainly couldn’t be where we are today without you. So
Unknown Speaker [26:48]
David Ralph [26:49]
So if you would love to become my next success story and have your own life changing online business following my step by step system, fine tuned over many years to take away the effort and energy Spence I struggle with and come across to Join Up dots.com and book a free call with myself. Let’s get you living easy life as it’s there waiting for you to get it that is Join Up dots.com business coaching. Okay, in the first half of the show, we were talking to France, he is very much about mindset and building his business. But of course, he’s an expert in creating evergreen, automated behaviour driven emails or laws and campaigns but coaches. What’s the first step then Francis, what is the first step because certainly with sales funnels, I used to think they were some kind of magic, but now it seems to be that people overcomplicate things so but somebody who’s moving into this or maybe don’t even know what a sales funnel is, or behaviour driven email, give us some background.
Francis Nayan Copywriting Expert [27:53]
Yeah, so the first step in creating a behaviour driven email is really just to focus on you. behaviour and to create content, create emails, create these emails in your sequence that you know, positions us just an authentic person and to write content that resonates with your audience. And you do that just by being yourself in your emails. Of course there are these you know, copywriting methods and tactics and things like this. But at the end of the day, the the things you write, it has to be very genuine. And just by doing that, you actually filter out a lot of the people who, you know, you won’t be able to do business with, and you bring in people who you know, are attracted to the things that you do and like you and like what you can offer. So I think the first thing is to really kind of
David Ralph [28:53]
erase a lot of things that people tell you and just focus on you and what you want to do and how you want to sound you know, of course Best practices and best methods. But the thing you really need to nail I think overall is your message. And what is your message then say somebody has started new, and I keep on hearing. Email Marketing is the way you’ve got to collect your emails. And I know certainly back in the early days, I used to collect emails and didn’t know what to do with the emails once I’ve collected them. So how does somebody form a message when they’re new?
Francis Nayan Copywriting Expert [29:28]
Yeah, so best thing I would say is to create your welcome sequence. So you know, look at it as if you you’re meeting someone in real life, you know, you connect with them, you may shake cans, you may have a good conversation. And then afterwards, you follow up with them, you know, you invite them to things you become vulnerable to them, even you talk about yourself about your, your background, your upbringing. You know, why you do what you do. And you know, everyone likes talking about themselves. So if you’re just starting out, you know, write your little bio, and it doesn’t have to be super long it can just talk to you can just be about what you’re about what you’ve experienced. And just write that that’s essentially email one, you know, I think you pair that up with perhaps your freebie or you know, the kind of your OPT in offer. I guess that’s a little more technical. But if you just have that right there, yeah, that’s, that’s email one that could even be the entire sequence depending on the industry you’re in and what you’re offering to your clients. So yeah, in that opening, welcome sequence, you’re trying to build that relationship. So you can think about, you know, if someone’s trying to build a friendship, a relationship with you, whether that’s online or offline, what are those types of things that you want, you know, you want to you want that person to be a little bit unique. You want them to connect with you in some way you want them to even maybe even have the same problems or understand your own problems. And so, yeah, if you’re just starting out as to go in You have to go in with thinking about what you’re all about, and then understanding who you’re trying to work with.
David Ralph [31:07]
Now, that’s the key thing that I think people miss. I think they do not work hard enough on the Avatar and really doing the market research through Join Up Dots. As I say, I’ve been through a process over about 15 years, and I can look back on it. And literally, my avatar at the beginning, which was john and Join Up Dots rechargeable was a clever name. I literally spent, I don’t know, 15 minutes, I just kind of just wrote this hypothetical person off the top of my head. Now, I would go onto Google Trends. I would look at where people are looking for certain things. I would look at age, I would look for demographics. I would really look at skill sets and build it up. And certainly for my business coaching, we spend a whole week really doing more data research than I ever did, based on trying to find out The ideal customer is. Well, here’s the caveat to this. Frances, I do find that the majority of time your actual ideal customer ends up to be very like yourself in these kinds of businesses, would your ideal customer be very like you Really?
Francis Nayan Copywriting Expert [32:17]
Yeah. 100% I mean, I think personality wise, I think somehow I’m attracted to people who are a lot like me just quite relaxed. And you know, it’s very chilled out but also very passionate with the work that they do, but they’re not, you know, gonna gonna stab someone over like a misspelt word work something like that. But for me, it’s, you know, of course, every when I work with a client, the avatar is going to be slightly different at the end of the day, but you know, the people I work with, it’s, um, yeah, and I built up my avatar. I have a little profile on my Google Drive of kind of everything about this, this person, as a fake person, but you know, they’re all real. They’re all real. And I get that Like a picture of them, like side by side, like male and female of like maybe where they went to school, what their interests are, and everything like that. So yeah, I look at that and I’m thinking, I kind of this is kind of like me, you know, it’s like, like attracts like, you know, it’s kind of like your, your vibe attracts your tribe type of thing. I’m not sure. You know, anyone listening believes in that stuff but I think there’s
some of it’s pretty true. You know, I think I think he’s totally true like you.
David Ralph [33:26]
Yeah, I think he’s totally true. You know? And also what do you think about this one, one of the biggest things you know, I coach people how to build online businesses. And I now see probably the biggest issue is getting themselves out there actually becoming visible online. They all seem to go oh, you know, I’m working with a lovely lady at the moment. She’s absolutely gorgeous. And I know that I’m gonna have to push her like a boulder uphill. I don’t mean to call you a boulder Donna, but she doesn’t want to get her face out there and get her voice out there. She almost wants to sit behind something and be hidden. And I’m saying to you, you’ve got to get it. You’ve got to get it out there because people connect with people. It’s not about a blank business anymore. What do you think about people that still think that they can hide behind a website and secretly make money without being part of the process somehow?
Francis Nayan Copywriting Expert [34:19]
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I know I had problems with that. I definitely had a lot of fears of like, stepping out of, you know, writing like a, even something like a, like a guest post, just having my name out there somewhere or even calling myself a freelance copywriter or something. It wasn’t until I actually started making like, these small steps. You know, creating a post here and there or emailing my list or even just having this website, you know, that, you know, things just really started to change. I know, it’s, like, terrifying. It really is. And it’s still terrifying. You know, I’m on this podcast right now. And I’m a little nervous. I was a little nervous, you know, but it’s, um, I think it’s it’s just important. It’s also if you’re just out there and you be yourself, then you’re those people who like you. resonate with you, they’re gonna want to work with you. And yeah, and there’s no such thing as perfect. I think, you know, perfectionism is like, totally, it’s so bad. And it stops so many people from stepping out there because everyone thinks they need to be perfect and things like that. But I think if you just go out there and just be yourself, if that’s perfect enough, and you’re going to find people who know like those little quirks, you know, I was speaking with a friend of mine who was like, he has a really bad stutter. And you know, you want to do like a Facebook Live and like, I’m really nervous. Like, I don’t want to have this stutter up and I’m super self conscious about it. And I said, Well, just try. Just try to do it one time. If it absolutely, you know, sucks, and you don’t want to do it, just like never do it again. That’s cool. And he did it and he did stutter. But then he said he had so many people connect with them because they thought how it was amazing with how awesome Authentic he was Yeah, yeah with the way he spoke, you know, he wasn’t, you know, these guys, Facebook ads trying to be perfect and things like that he was he was himself and people love that, you know, he’s very human people love human. And then
David Ralph [36:11]
that’s the thing that you are really talking about when it comes to your email marketing, you’re talking one to one like a friend to a friend, you’re just sharing what’s going on in your life. And some people will read it some people, I you know, I had a couple of guys on who were email marketing people. And they write every single day, they sent an email out every single day. And I said to him, Why the hell would you write about? And I said, Well, sometimes we actually write out I’ve got nothing to say today, you know, and then just sort of tell them nothing really. But I still build that that communication. And they said they stopped once for two days because I had internet issues. And they actually got emails from clients saying you okay, I haven’t received an email from you today, even though effectively they’re saying You know, in a Seinfeld way, it’s an email about nothing. Now, the Seinfeld show was famous for being a show about nothing. And that is the issue, isn’t it? Where you’re nailing it, because you’re not trying to create huge value, in a sense that then freezes you because you can’t think of what to write. You’re just doing it and getting out there and showing your personality.
Francis Nayan Copywriting Expert [37:24]
Yeah, yeah. I mean, that’s always my goal is showing my personality or my clients personality, because I know that if I nail it, and I’m just, you know, being myself and I’m writing well, and doing I’m hitting all these points, then people are gonna like it, you know, similar to those people who you just mentioned, these know, email marketers, you know, I have a list myself. And, you know, I have a lot of the times I’m thinking, maybe this is, you know, my email soccer, you know, it’s like, this is so boring or something. But yeah, I mean, I kind of showcase my personality and that, you know, I think those guys were genius for just writing an email about nothing and saying this email is you know, it’s a About Nothing and but people still loved it because one there, it’s like they’re hearing from a friend, you know, it’s like getting a text message from your best friend like every day. And if they don’t, if you don’t get the text message, then you’re gonna be wondering, you know, what’s going on with this person, you’re gonna be wondering, and that’s kind of addictive. But you know, and for me, I remember writing an email and I thought it’s just like the worst email or you know, ever or something and news about like, like FC Barcelona or something and I kind of had this story about like FC Barcelona and like, made it into like a story about like, business growth and things like this so drawn off, like, it’s bad. But then I had four people just like message me and say, Oh, my God, I love this. This is so good. Like, thanks for showing this to me. And I thought it was really funny because I actually like, you know, read through the email again, I had like, a few like grammar mistakes here and there and I, you know, was like critiquing my own work, but then there’s people who actually got a lot of value from
David Ralph [38:58]
now, taking it by Again, you’re sitting there with a blank email and you’re writing based on your, your customers personality. What about if their personality is not very good? And you’re sending out emails, you know, how do you do that, but people will read it and go look, I’ve met this bloke, nothing like this. He was he was a bit of a gift. How’d you do that?
Francis Nayan Copywriting Expert [39:23]
Well, yeah, you know, if my client is like a bit of a gift, then in my emails, I’m going to be a bit of a gift because you know, you were just saying, you know, what, if this person has like a bad personality, and you know, I can’t I can’t really say you know, what’s what’s a good or bad personality? And you know, I’m sure there’s people who may listen to this podcast and think you know, I have a bad personality but then there
David Ralph [39:45]
are no I couldn’t possibly France’s we all we all want to hug you.
Francis Nayan Copywriting Expert [39:49]
There’s people out there. There’s people out there David, I promise you they’re lurking, for sure. But it’s like it’s just about being authentic. You know, I think there’s there’s this one guy who I’m a big fan of that. Settle who has very almost like, abrasive emails, and, you know, sometimes we’ll even shade in politics in there. And, you know, that can really upset a lot of people and some people think he’s actually, like, you know, doesn’t have a good personality. But, you know, there’s a lot of people who love you know, it’s polarising, you know, it’s like, almost like picking sides, and you’re gonna align with people you really like, I know, a lot of people really like him. Of course, a lot of people don’t. But, you know, if I’m writing for, you know, a client of mine, and his personality is, you know, something very different from mine. And I may even, you know, disagree with a few things. his audience is gonna like it. You know, at the end of the day, there’s a lot of people who are going to think that, you know, these are the best emails ever. And it’s all about like, bringing that out If a person’s like super boring, I mean, there’s obviously something he’s passionate about. So it’s about showcasing what they’re passionate about, and what they’re good at. And yeah, it attracts more people. Now
David Ralph [41:04]
I’ve been reading a lot of copywriting books because it’s, once you get into this game you can’t read enough of anything you use this kind of consumer of, I’m always sitting in a garden with a book. And one of the guys is a guy called Jim Edwards. And I’ve referenced him and I’ve got the book, I’m stretching up for it here now, copyrights seat copywriting secrets. And one of the things that he said that I thought was interesting was never put a link on your website, always get them on your email, always get them back to your website. And so a lot of people will send an email out with like an affiliate link or something. Always bring them back. Do you agree with that? Is it about bringing them back to the hub? Is that the power of email marketing?
Francis Nayan Copywriting Expert [41:52]
Well, I think it’s always a good one. I think having a link there is always important, you know, you need to have that kind of a way to increase income. But I think it depends on your on the big idea of that email, you know, are you trying to teach them a lesson of some sorts of of anything? Really? No, it doesn’t. You don’t have to bring them to your website if you created content that’s based on your big idea then yeah, bring it to your website. But I know a lot of classic copywriters and courses in which they, you know, they sent out an email with a lesson but it like went off to some like, you know, YouTube video that had nothing to do with that person. I just recently I joined Ian Stanley’s his email newsletter, you know, he’s a big email copywriter marketer and you know, all that stuff. And you know, his first few emails, he’s just talking about, like the the power of luck or something, and he linked off to videos on YouTube of I think it was his dad. He’s an English guy like Darren Brown’s like, okay, yeah, I’m getting lucky or something. Yeah. And you know, of course, that’s nothing to do with you know, Ian’s like website at all, but it’s about Just given your value at the end of the day, of course, it’s probably not best to share links and content from you know your competitors. But you know, if what you think is valuable, you know, that’s something you want to share, then you’ll go ahead and share just be, you know, smart about it. And yeah, you know, if you don’t want to do like, you know, third, third party link, then create your own content around it. It’s kind of like a pretty easy solution there. But I wouldn’t say I’m like, adamantly against it. You know, I think the other day I wrote something about open loops to my email list, and I sent them to a YouTube video, like a three minute YouTube video about some like, TV producer talking about, of course, that guy knows nothing about me or anything, but starting to be valuable to people who are listening to me. And yeah, I don’t think there’s a there’s anything really wrong with that as long as it’s not to your competitors or anything, I think you’re good.
David Ralph [43:53]
And so once again, to emphasise this because I really want people to understand, you’re trying to provide value. You’re being personable, you’re writing in the real voice. And you are being consistent with your output you’re not trying to sell because that’s, you know, I see it and I can see the sequence operating. And I think I’m not going to buy but you’re going to pitch me in three days time, and then they come through. And this, it’s almost like people have missed the point. You know how I do it France is basically, people come along, they listen to the show, I give them an option to speak to me, I speak to a lot of people. And the majority of them say thank you very much. I don’t hear from them again. And then a big proportion of them come back maybe three months later, four months later, and so it just works that way. I do it very much. I speak to them. I’m on zoom. I’m connecting with people time and time again, because the sales funnel as I keep on saying to people, it’s not a sales funnel. as such. It’s a trust funnel. You’re putting people’s mind at rest, you’re allowing them to Almost test out. If I went into a shop, you’d let them put the jacket on, you’d let them look in a mirror. And that’s what I see a sales funnel is, it’s about how can I allow my customer to be really sure that I am value? How can I let them put my products on and test them first of all, and I think the majority of people that I see that come through to me on my email missed the point totally.
Francis Nayan Copywriting Expert [45:27]
Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely. I love that there’s not just like a sales funnel. It’s like a trust funnel. At the end of the day, if you’re gonna, you know, purchase a product or your customer purchase from you. It’s all about because it’s all about trust, you know, you’ve built enough trust that they’re willing to literally hand over their hard earned money to, you know, practically a stranger maybe, you know, to help them out with something and they trust you to make that happen. And yeah, I think that’s a really good mindset to have in all parts of your business. You know, You know, if especially you’re going to try to create, like an email or a sales funnel is like, how can I have this person trust me, you know, you can do it, you know, in content marketing, creating, you know, a lot of blog articles and writing personal emails or having, you know, a lot of social proof and these videos and testimonials, but yeah, it’s all about having trust at the end of the day, whether that’s, you know, that’s like an everything in life almost, you know, if you’re trying to get with a partner or something, it’s all about trust. And same with business. If you want a long term client, like my goal, my goal is always have like long term relationships. It’s it’s built around trust. So I think anyone listening to this, I think that’s a good mindset to have.
David Ralph [46:44]
I had an email from a guy that I used to know and he started a podcast, and he didn’t ask my health for podcasting, but that’s by the by, but he came through to me, he said, David, he said, You know, I’ve been doing it for a while now. I haven’t made any money at all. And I said to him, how He shows if you released and he said 32. I said, Okay, you need a little bit more than that. I said, because, you know, people have to make a decision on you. I said, you know, I’ve been doing it seven years and I’m very transparent first year. I didn’t make any money at all second year, little bit. urge year, not much at all. But the third year was when I thought, well hang on, what am I doing wrong here, and then started to study and develop myself and build up my skills and realise that just being a podcaster wasn’t enough. You had to have something to hang on it now is remarkable. And I’m doing very well indeed. But 32 shows or wherever you was, you know, and he’s saying, I haven’t made money. He hasn’t built that connection up as a
Francis Nayan Copywriting Expert [47:45]
no, no, no, definitely, definitely not. I mean, 32 podcast episodes. I’m not really sure how long it took him to do that. I’m sure he’s like, you know, comfortable on there. But I think it’s going out and putting more out there. You know, make another 32 and seeing what works, testing out different angles, testing out different guests. I know I think I’ve saw your podcast and I know you have guests up, but you also kind of have your own episodes where you’re just talking. Yeah. And you know, I think that’s smart. I mean, you’re checking in, you know what works. And that works for you. I think brim is just one perseverance. All you need is like one person to really love it. And then you can just spread like wildfire. And
David Ralph [48:28]
the reason I do that Francis is because of limp. An interview show is going to be around about an hour, a solo show is gonna be about 20 minutes, a technical show might be about half hour, you know, I did one this morning, 13 minutes. And I know that when people come across to a podcast, they’re always going to go for the short one. First of all, they’re not going to go to listen through to an hour. They’re gonna listen to a 13 minute one, a seven minute one, but that’s why I do that which grows the audience you give the people who are trackers going across America. They’re lorries you give them the long shows. And a lot of people used to say to me at the beginning, you’ve got to do a show based on the average hour length of the American commute. And I used to think that, you know, my, my people aren’t in America anyway. They’re all over the world. And people aren’t just commuting for 23 minutes, you know, I used to commute for two hours each way when I used to go to work, you know, so I give them variation, which ultimately tying it in again, is about me trying to think about what is the value point for my listeners and delivering it to them?
Francis Nayan Copywriting Expert [49:36]
yeah. I love that just searching for you know what they really value and I like is out there this guy, he has 32 episodes. Maybe they’re not that different. No, maybe it needs to change things up a little bit. And but I’m sure it’s out there who knows? He might have 32 episodes, maybe just 3031 will be, you know, absolutely amazing. And it’s gonna have a bunch of some one person’s gonna listen. And then bring all the friends listen to it and all their friends who bring more friends. I think it’s just being patient with the process that’s kind of at hand. And yeah, understanding what they value. I think with anyone you’re you’re trying to sell things to or when you’re trying to capture an audience, once you understand what they value, then it’s a, you’ve got it, you know, in my case, sometimes it’s just really nice discounts or maybe it’s entertaining stories, or maybe it’s a, you know, news updates based on industry or something. But you know, I think once you understand what your audience really wants to hear, and you give it to them, then got it made.
David Ralph [50:39]
Yeah, I agree totally. And this guy knew that 100% Let’s hear from him.
Steve Jobs [50:45]
Of course, it was impossible to connect the dots looking forward when I was in college, but it was very, very clear looking backwards. 10 years later. Again, you can’t connect the dots looking forward, you can only connect them looking backwards. So You have to trust that the dots will somehow connect in your future. You have to trust in something, your gut, destiny, life, karma, whatever. Because believing that the dots will connect down the road will give you the confidence to follow your heart, even when it leads you off the well worn path, and that will make all the difference.
David Ralph [51:20]
So that cost was Steve Jobs that late Apple owner and founder and then those words resonate with yourself, Francis.
Francis Nayan Copywriting Expert [51:28]
Oh, yeah, for sure. I mean, like looking back, you know, I guess on my journey, it’s kind of funny to think about kind of like the rough patches that I thought, you know, when I was in them, I was like, this is like, awful. I can’t believe I’m in this. But you know, it kind of pushed me and made me you know, made me ready for what’s now now whether that was a couple years ago when I was like dealing with like a substance abuse or when I was in my greasy Budapest apartment and scrounging up egg and bread, money and You know, looking back at it now, it’s just kind of like, yeah, it’s kind of a way to inspire yourself and to, yeah, understand that the process is in your favour. You just gotta stick to it.
David Ralph [52:10]
And then do you think you have to go through the hard times? Because I actually do I, I had acute burnout through Join Up Dots. And it was the worst thing that I’ve ever been through. But everything is so much better because of it because I learned so many valuable lessons because of the real sort of hard time I went for. Do you? Do you think you need that? Or is that a kind of simplistic way of looking at things can people just breeze through happily?
Francis Nayan Copywriting Expert [52:36]
No, no, I think everyone kind of has to go through those rough patches. I mean, one it kind of reveals to you how much you really care how much you really want it and it really makes you think a whole lot. Not just about yourself, but how you want to run your business. And yeah, you’ll learn a lot of truths in those kind of like, you know, quote unquote, dark times, and me You stronger, and you kind of give yourself more structure. And now you want to run things. And eventually, when you get out of this dark time, say, it really feels good. And you’re really proud of yourself and you’re you have more confidence and you empower yourself and you’re able to push through to the next goal. And, you know, it’s great because, you know, anytime there’s like a new goal, then you know, there’s going to be like another kind of struggle and kind of like a tough time. But then you kind of Yeah, you kind of have faith in the process that Okay, yeah, this is difficult right now. We have to keep, keep pushing, keep trying to learn, then we’re going to thrive. And yeah, I think it’s necessary for anyone and I think out of all the people I’ve met who are successful, you know, they’ve had those times and they’re still in those times. I think. Anyone who you’re probably admire as an entrepreneur, business owner, anyone successful, they’ve had those times and they attribute a lot of their success to those. Yeah. To this tough date, yeah. And
David Ralph [54:01]
it’s all seasons, isn’t it? You know, I can look back. I was reading a book the other day. And he said, you know, think about your life. Were there times when things just magically worked for you. And other times, you know, things went terrible. And I thought, yeah, there was, there was times that I couldn’t do anything, right. I’ve been times, I didn’t even have to try and magic was occurring. And I think it’s that ability to accept that the seasons are going to change. You’ve just got to ride it out a bit.
Francis Nayan Copywriting Expert [54:29]
Yeah, yeah, definitely. Just believe in yourself. At the end of the day, you know, and just, yeah, believe in your dream, kind of understand and stick with what you like, you keep learning, and everything’s gonna work out fine. I think. I mean, I think it’s kind of funny, looking up kind of connecting those dots and seeing in those tough days, it’s just a look back at it now. And I’m very grateful that you know, that they happen because I can like fall back to that as if I made it through the app and I can make it through anything. So
David Ralph [54:59]
yeah. If you can eat egg and bread sounds disgusting, and then you can do anything, you can do anything. Well, this is the part of the show that we’ve been building up to. And this is the part that we called a sermon on the mic when we’re going to send you back in time to have a one on one with your younger self. And if you could go back and speak to the young Francis, what advice would you like to give him? Well, we’re going to find out because we’re going to play the music. And when it fades, it’s your time to talk to each other. This is the Sermon on the mic.
Francis Nayan Copywriting Expert [55:38]
Man, my man
Yeah, first of all, I actually love that song. I was just dancing but yeah, to Francis, want to let you know that you’re going to be fine that you’re great. You’ve always been great been through Like you’re about to go through a lot, but no matter what you’re going to push through, you’re a smart guy, you’re going to meet a lot of awesome people, you’re going to be with them, and you’re going to learn with them. And it’s going to be one hell of a journey. So just buckle up, enjoy the ride. Just have an amazing time, as you always do yourself, and you’ll meet people who love you, and you’re gonna love them back. So that’s all what I have to say in right now.
David Ralph [56:25]
So Francis, what’s the number one best way that our audience can connect with you?
Francis Nayan Copywriting Expert [56:31]
Yeah, they can. They can find me on my website at stories and coffee.com they can subscribe to my email list. A email about several times a week, I’m actually working on a new email marketing copy course. And that’s going to be kind of free for anyone who wants and we’ll be developing that pretty soon. And I also have an E book coming out as well in the next few weeks. And of course, you can also find me on Facebook. I have like two accounts there. One business account. So
David Ralph [57:02]
I think just find me on there. And yeah, just connect in any way. Brilliant stuff. Francis you copywriting expert, thank you so much for spending time with us today, joining up those dots. And please come back again, when you got more dots to join up, because I do believe that by joining up the dots and connecting our paths is the best way to build our futures. Francis, thank you so much.
Francis Nayan Copywriting Expert [57:22]
Thank you. It was a blast. Cheers, guys.
David Ralph [57:26]
Mr. Francis Nayan copywriting expert. So email marketing, anything in business is about trying to build up the trust, trying to really think about your customer, your avatar, and how can you put their their mind at rest? Because if they’re spending money with you, you know, I can get the best value. And offline businesses do that you go to a car showroom and they let you take the car for a drive you go into a shop and they let you put stuff on. So how can you do this? How can you bridge that gap and anything to do with behaviour driven emails, banners and campaigns, and whatever you do, it’s about really defining your avatar and working closely at giving them your natural personality and trust. Now, if you haven’t defined it, and you don’t know who you’re speaking to, then you’re going to be dead in the water. And certainly anybody who’s struggling out there, drop us a line. And I will point you in the direction for some more information on that. It’s a big part of the puzzle, you really got to know. Does your customer want what you’re offering? And who are they and where are they and how to speak to them and how to communicate with them and how to put them at ease. And once you get that going, then things start magically occurring. Thank you so much as always for everyone who has been listening to Join Up Dots. I will be back with you soon with another episode because otherwise I got nothing else to do you look out yourself see again by
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