Welcome to the Join Up Dots business coaching podcast interview with David Burkus
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Introducing David Burkus
David Burkus is my guest today, on the Steve Jobs inspired Join Up Dots business coaching podcast interview.
He is an best-selling author, a sought after speaker, and business school professor.
In 2017, he was named as one of the world’s top business thought leaders by Thinkes50
His forthcoming book, Friend of a Friend, offers readers a new perspective on how to grow their networks and build key connections—one based on the science of human behavior, not the old boring networking advice.
Where The Dots Have Taken David
If that isn’t good enough, David Burkus has innovative views on leadership which have earned him invitations to speak to leaders from a variety of organizations.
He has delivered keynote speeches and workshops for Fortune 500 companies such as Microsoft, Google, and Stryker and governmental and military leaders at the U.S. Naval Academy and Naval Postgraduate School.
His TED talk has been viewed over 1.8 million times.
So what are we doing wrong then when it comes to building a highly valuable network?
And what actually are the myths of creativity?
Well lets find out as we bring onto the show to start joining up dots with the one and only Mr. David Burkus.
During the show we discussed such weighty topics with David Burkus such as:
David shares how he would recreate the education system to be able to spark creativity and passion in the kids of America.
We discuss how the ideas of a book come to him, and the steps he takes to choose the one he wants to work on.
Why networking should not be a constant battle against the spam…but instead a series of meaningful interactions that provide value.
Books By David Burkus
How To Connect With David Burkus
You can also check our extensive podcast archive by clicking here – enjoy
Audio Transcription Of David Burkus Interview
When we’re young, we have an amazing positive outlook about how great life is going to be. But somewhere along the line we forget to dream and end up settling. join up dots features amazing people who refuse to give up and chose to go after their dreams. This is your blueprint for greatness. So here’s your host live from the back of his garden in the UK. David Ralph.
David Ralph [0:21]
Yes, hi there. Good morning, everybody. Good morning to join up dots. It is something I must do a director’s cut early shows because sometimes the bit that we talked about before the show, I’m sure it’s going to be better than what the actual show is going to be about with this guy has taught me so much so far about Disneyland and lovemaking and you wouldn’t believe what we were talking about. But it’s of course not going to match up with the content. We are going to bring onto the show because he is a best selling author, a sought after speaker and Business School professor. Now in 2017. He was named as one of the world’s top business thought leaders by think he is 50, his forth coming book friend of a friend offers readers a new perspective on how to grow their networks and build key connections, one based on the science of human behavior, not old, boring networking advice. He’s also the author of under new management and the myths of creativity. And he’s a regular contributor to Harvard Business Review. And he’s work has been featured in Fast Company, the Financial Times ink magazine, Bloomberg, loads of stuff, that if that isn’t good enough his innovative views on leadership and earned him invitations to speak to leaders from a variety of organizations where he’s delivered keynote speeches and workshops for Fortune 500 companies such as Microsoft, Google, striking government and military leaders. And these tech talk has been viewed over 1.8 million times. So what are we doing wrong? And what are we doing wrong when it comes to building a highly valuable network? And what actually unlimited creativity I’m going to see if we can join two forces here. Well, let’s find out as we bring on to the show, to start join up dots with the one and only Mr. David Burkus. Good morning, David. How are you, sir?
David Burkus [2:04]
Good morning. Good afternoon, wherever people are listening to this, it’s I figured it out. It’s a global show. So it’s just sort of always morning and always afternoon
David Ralph [2:12]
it is and the beauty of podcast eight, they live forever, as long as you’re alive. And as long as I’m alive. It’s like we’re in the same room having the same conversation, like Groundhog Day, every single day. Could that be better for you?
David Burkus [2:25]
I mean, they live forever. So no pressure, right? No, no pressure to get everything right. Because it’s going to live forever if I slip up and say something wrong. Yeah. Yeah, no problem.
David Ralph [2:33]
I have built my whole career around saying bizarre things. I was actually slightly blushing about having a government Professor on the show. And mentioning lovemaking right at the very beginning. It slipped out David, I couldn’t help it. It was there.
David Burkus [2:48]
Yeah, for the record, I listened to that intro, I only provided lessons about Disney. You were you were about all those other topics
David Ralph [2:54]
Its the only thing I can do and I can’t do it very well either. I try my best. I do try my best. So so let’s get to this right the first thing that’s going to jump out me, obviously, we’re going to talk about the building the network, because that is such a big point of business. But as I was scrolling through the introduction, at the very last minute, I threw in the extra question, what actually are the myths of creativity? Because that that got my interest?
David Burkus [3:21]
Yeah, so I mean, where do you want to start? There’s, there’s 10, in the original book, that the whole premise of the book really is that when we when we think about creativity, in business, we usually change the C word for the I word and call it innovation. But we’re fundamentally talking about the same process coming up with new and useful ideas and the language that a lot of people use to describe creativity, really, you fall into one of two different camps. Either you’re in that what a lot of people would call the creative industries. So this is everything from marketing and advertising, to filmmaking, to music, to arts, etc. They use a very different terminology and language, they talk about trusting the process, they trust, talk about putting in the work, etc. And then it actually a lot of people who would call themselves not all that creative, who use terms like oh, I need to feel inspired, or they’ll use the description of like, it just came to me to describe that sort of bright idea. And so, you know, the idea is that we’re using terminology. Even though very few people still believe in sort of the ancient Greek mythologies of the Nine Muses, etc. We’re using terminology a lot of times that is reminiscent of those myths. And most people are using it to dismiss themselves. So what I’m trying to do in that book is actually replace a lot of mistaken ideologies about how creativity supposed to work with a lot of psychology and neuroscience behind how creativity actually does work. That just happens to fall in line with the people who do it sort of every single day. And that, you know, the big premise is that usually people describe creative terms to calm themselves sort of out. But really everybody has the potential to be creative, you just sort of are we tend to define it as if you’re not in a certain industry, then you’re not creative. And that’s simply not true when it comes to coming up with new ideas that are also valuable.
David Ralph [4:58]
I just think it’s playfulness, isn’t it? But the more playful we are in our business and in our life, the more Well, certainly in my case, through my entire career, the more playful I’ve been, even if it wasn’t allowed to be playful. The good ideas came.
David Burkus [5:14]
Yeah, so this is actually a really great point. So a lot of people ask me like, well, how can you teach creativity? And I usually say, well, you really can’t you, all you can do is strip away all of the crud that accumulates over several decades of people’s professional lives. But if you think about like, every five year old you’ve ever met is incredibly creative, right? And then over time, we start telling ourselves various different stories to discount our own abilities, etc. instead of staying in that playfulness stage, like, like you said, so yeah, I don’t think it’s I don’t really think it’s about learning. I mean, there there are tools and tactics and tricks that different creative industries use to generate more ideas or to sort of refine their product, and we dive into some of those. But the big thing is actually just changing the language to bring you back to the way you would have described yourself when you were five years old, because pretty much every 35 years old was really creative.
David Ralph [6:02]
And do you think a lot of it is to do with comparison, I always had this idea in my head about, I’m on an island, there’s no one to look around at? What wouldn’t I do? And basically, I would do anything I want, I’d make a shack and if the shack protected me that was good enough, I wouldn’t be looking at the bloke down the beach thinking oh, my God, it’s not worth even trying. Because look at what he’s built down there, you would just do stuff. That’s comparison, kill creativity and people. Yeah, somewhat.
David Burkus [6:29]
I mean, there’s a lot of research and suggested a lot of it has to do with self censoring, right. So higher order levels of your brain tend to be where there is self monitoring behavior, you’re watching how other people are viewing you and adjusting your your responses accordingly. And, interestingly enough, there’s a couple different studies that show when we do things to inhibit those, those self monitoring regions of the brain, alcohol being one of them, people tend to self censor far less and end up with more creative ideas. So that the comparison thing is in play there. I think a lot of it is I mean, this is a deck, it’s a long process that I that a lot of it is the societal system and the the schooling system that we put people in, you actually see a drop off around fourth grade, in the United States, I don’t know what the equivalents are in various different countries. But around fourth grade, you see a drop off in kids descriptions of creativity and creative ability, mostly because that’s around the time where it becomes less about play and learning fun, new things and more about regurgitating answers to get into that, you know, state sponsored testing systems, etc. And so, you know, you start out in that, and maybe a couple kids find refuge in theater and an art and music. But most people sort of follow along that track. And then fast forward 20 years, when you’re working in the industry that that track leads to you look over to those kids who were in music, from fourth grade on who sort of sought refuge from all of that. And then you start to compare yourselves and you start to say, Well, I must not be creative, like, No, that’s not true. You just you unknowingly picked a path that started stripping away your fault at letting you fall out of practice. And in reality, those people stayed in practice, but you can get right back into it. Now, you
David Ralph [7:59]
Business School professor, you’re a clever guy. And is that a sort of a difficult mix, you’ve got, obviously you’ve got a curriculum that needs to be taught, but you’ve got a desire to see people be creative. And so the three speakers are free thinkers, as opposed to do you find that difficult to get through what the business schools asking you to do? Well, putting your own spin on it.
Yeah, I mean, I’m
David Burkus [8:22]
really lucky in that I’m also the token psychologist in every business school has two or three psychologists in their, in their faculty that are teaching the a lot of the management and human resources, classes, etc. And so I come at it from that angle. So I’m, I’m trying to teach sort of a different thing. I have no idea how the accounting professors in any business school, keep people being free thinkers and creative and in truth, I’m not actually sure we want very creative accountants. But that’s a whole other monologue. But you know, so I’m a little bit fortunate in that regard. But you I mean, you are right, there’s sort of certain learning objectives, etc. And you have to you can’t you really, I had to abandon the just let regurgitate and test model almost immediately and, and come up with a model where I mean, one of the things that I struggled the most with is this idea that if you wanted to put in a ton of work, and try really hard, you’re going to learn a ton. And you’re going to get an A plus. And if you want, the way that my my kind of classes run, if you don’t want to put in that work, and you want to slack off, and you want to pretend that you know what’s going on, but really, you’re not trying all that hard, you’ll probably get a B plus, that’s not as big of a range as the, you know, listen, regurgitate. And a test format creates. But my mentality is, is you know, you form habits and university that will, that will follow you for the rest of your life. And so if you want to be that slacker, like that’s not on me to enforce you what how much effort you want to put into it. If you want to be that self motivated person, awesome, good on you, that will reward you in the end post school, it’s is not necessarily my job to to tease out who is going to succeed and who is going to fail later. It’s really it’s your job, it’s in your hands, all I can do is give you feedback on how you’re doing.
David Ralph [10:01]
Right. So I am a podcast host, I have got powers beyond belief. And I am going to put you into the White House and get rid of the orange guy with a funny hair. Okay, so you are now in power instantly? How would you change this? How would you change the education system? Because it already sounds like you feel it’s almost a conveyor belt, which suppresses creativity and thought leaders.
David Burkus [10:27]
Yeah, I mean, matter what I do, I’m probably going to screw it up. That’s one of the fun parts about such an overly complicated system. I mean, I think there’s a couple things I would do. The first thing is I would make it I think we’ve had a rush decentralization around the education system. So I think that the, you know, we’ve been trying to federalize it more and more and come up with federal standards. And that encourages sort of a teaching to the test, right, versus sort of a empowering more the person who’s actually in the classroom with those various different students, I think I would try and figure out how to attribute a whole lot more more funding to arts, music, theater, etc, those tend to be the things that would, that would drop off, I think the biggest thing I would do is there’s a huge focus right now and most developed countries on STEM education. And there’s only a minor sort of response movement, trying to make it steam as in science, technology, engineering, arts and, and mathematics. And I think that’s a that’s sort of a huge part. And I think, you know, that that’s the probably the thing that we’re, we’re overlooking, is sort of the role of Liberal Arts, in teaching good judgment, etc. So that’s probably the thing I would, I would emphasize the most, I have no idea what that would turn into in terms of federal programs and stuff, because I would probably screw that up. I mean, everybody else who sat in that role seems to have screwed it up. So I would probably do that as well.
David Ralph [11:42]
Now I’ve got total faith in you, I’m the other side of the pond is where you want to play, you make the mistakes, and then bring the good stuff over to us. And we will carry on. But I would pretty much say to the kids nowadays, once you can read invite to a certain point. And I talked about this a lot on the show, because it’s one of my best. But my daughter comes up and she says, oh, I’ve got maps tonight, will you help me. And as I’m helping her, I’m thinking, you’re never going to use this. I don’t know ever been in adult life I’ve ever used top heavy fractions and stuff, it just doesn’t work. I would say to them, as soon as you can read and write to a certain point, enjoy yourself, be kids do subjects that you think are going to be inspiring for you. Because I think out of that something’s going to hit home. And you will be on your way that that’s that’s what I would do. And you would probably as a clever Professor say that it’s just lunacy David and it will never work.
David Burkus [12:35]
It’s not total lunacy. I mean, I did you know, to a certain point, I have no way of knowing what an 11 year old is going to sort of latch onto and decide is there is their career, right? I don’t even think a 18 year old 19 year old can do it. So I think we’re probably wrong to encourage a lot of majoring at the undergraduate level at this point to, you know, I think you you need to sort of give kids a broad curriculum so that they can figure out what they’re interested in what their what their habits are, right? That the challenge is, like you said, you know, one of one of the Grand travesties and most school systems United States is you don’t really learn statistics to the level that you need to right I, almost every day, I’m bombarded with a news report about a certain study or a poll or something like that, and I haven’t solved for x and probably 10 years, right. So so there’s that issue, I think, really, I mean, and this is, this is true, you learn this in your professional life, we learned this about in our mid 20s. And it’d be great if we could learn at 10 or 11 years old, at a certain point, you have to separate out doing what you need to do in order to make your superiors and the people who are, are keeping you employed happy, while also keeping that sort of free spirit that, you know, no one can tell you what to do in your time off. Right and, and grown up sort of start to realize this, kids, like you said, I think we probably do a bad job with this, we have such sort of over structured schedules now where they, they’re in school for for the for the majority of the day, they come home, we’ve usually got an activity or two, that they’re going to do soccer or music lessons or whatever. And those things are good, I don’t want to distract from that. But then they’ve got homework to do, then it’s time for bed, and then you sort of repeat. So there’s not sort of this constructive, free time to sort of play with it. One of the things I really admire actually about a local school that my son is in, is there, the entire elementary school has a rule that basically says we don’t have homework, we have no homework for this element, because Because really, you don’t need it. At elementary school, the only thing that we ask is that parents read with their kids for 30 minutes a day. And I think that’s fantastic. Because it’s not even saying what you read. So we could be reading, you know, this grand sort of fantasy novel, or we could be reading a history book doesn’t matter. That’s just their one request is that we read with the kids for 30 minutes a day. And in exchange, I don’t ever have to help them solve math problems like you do.
David Ralph [14:38]
You just threw it back at me. I can see what you’re doing. You’re trying to win this conversation. It’s not gonna happen. I’m going to press these buttons and take it back.
David Burkus [14:45]
Yeah, you control the mic, so I’m clearly gonna lose. Yeah,
David Ralph [14:48]
absolutely. And I will edit it anyway, no matter what happens, I will edit it. He’s Jim Carrey,
Jim Carrey [14:54]
my father could have been a great comedian. But he didn’t believe that that was possible for him.
And so he made a conservative to ice. Instead, he got a safe job as an accountant. And when I was 12 years old, he was let go
from that safe job.
And our family had to do whatever we could to survive.
I learned many great lessons from my father, not the least of which was that you can fail at what you don’t want. So you might as well take a chance on doing what you love. Now,
David Ralph [15:21]
those words apply to you because quite frankly David you about the that the polar opposite of me. Everything about you is totally different from me, we could never meet in the real world, which is why these podcast episodes are brilliant. So do those kind of would spark something in your own life? Are you doing what you love? Or have you gone through a kind of progression that has got you to this place of kudos? And it is it’s a you know, it’s a great place to be? But does it? Does it light you up every day?
David Burkus [15:53]
Yeah, I mean, I so I don’t think we’re actually I don’t actually don’t think we’re all that different. But and yeah, those do. I mean, Jim Jim Carrey is kind lost his mind relatively recently. But he’s an amazing, amazing bit of great work. Yeah, less than a decade. So. But no, I mean, I think they really do. So. I mean, my story is I went to, I went to undergrad as an English major, which was fantastic. My, my parents didn’t say like, oh, you’ll never get a job is that they let me figure that out on my own, which I did fairly, fairly early on. So I, one of the things you realize when you come to university to study English, because you want to be a writer is that most writers starve. Like the big dilemma when you’re 19 years old is do you want to be Ernest Hemingway where you’re brilliant, but poor? Or do you want to be James Patterson, where you’re rich, but a sellout? Right? And you don’t even know how many other fields of writing that there that there are right? And so it was I was in university when Gladwell Malcolm Gladwell, his first book came out, I’d never paid any attention to him his New Yorker articles or whatever, it’s just too young. But everybody was talking about this book, the tipping point and I read it and I thought, wow, this this is fascinating. This guy is every bit as good storyteller as a novelist, but then he’s bringing all of these interesting insights from the world of social science I want to read more like this and then you end up finding authors like Daniel Pink and Chip and Dan Heath etc. And so that was I basically decided okay, this is the type of writer that I want to be not the sort of novelist I’m going to write this sort of social science nonfiction books you you but you don’t you don’t do that right off the bat right because you this is where maybe I’m the less Jim Carrey the more sort of reasonable Fine Art of doing what you need to do to make to make the money but then also working in your time off. So I went I got married actually, right after undergrad my my wife and I met at university and so we got married the day after graduation, which I do not recommend. Because it’s an incredibly busy season, why why not make it more busy. And and then she went off to medical school, which is one of the reasons we got married right off the bat was it was easier. Maybe student student federal aid and all that kind of stuff benefits you when you’re when you’re married and poor versus single and poor. And so I went to graduate school while working in the pharmaceutical industry for six years. And so this was my you know, this is maybe my Jim Carrey’s dad moment where I was pretty terrible worker, pretty terrible employee in that regard. But I was going to graduate school part time, in nights and weekends in around 2010. I started building the platform, the podcasts and articles and writing for bigger sites and all of that sort of stuff. That interestingly, the professor part of my life is the accidental part. Because essentially what I did was took that big leap and gone Alright, well, alright, this is I mean, in the in the US, what happened was the Affordable Care Act passed in 2009. And that created a couple different things in me the first were right, wrong or indifferent. However you feel about it, you realize that the pharmaceutical industry and pretty much every industry that touches healthcare is going to change minds will hit the lifeboats now while there’s not a crowd. And so we took the big jump and the place that I landed was adjunct teaching all of these different classes that turned into a full time professorship and turned into six years as a full time professor. But that was the accidental part, the end goal to use the Jim Carrey thing was always that to be a writer that connected ideas from social science and to halfway decent storytelling, Malcolm Gladwell, I am not but I like to joke that because I have the right degrees for it, I can understand the social science a little bit more but but that’s that’s been the goal. And so I guess it mean, if I take that, quote, I’m essentially both people at the same time, right? You have to sort of figure out and do what you love. But there are also seasons in your life where you have to do that on nights and weekends. Because what you love doesn’t pay all that much money yet?
David Ralph [19:25]
Well, that’s the key thing, isn’t it? Yeah. And you, you hit a home, run the bear. A lot of people say follow your passion, follow your passion, and you will never work again. And I say to people, yeah, follow your passion. But you got to be aware, it’s probably going to take about four years. Now I’m coming up to four years of join up dots I would say in the last maybe six months, the money’s really started to come in. And before it was dribbling in, and the first two years nothing was coming in. And I think that that is the big bridge that people have to cross isn’t it? It’s a want to be creative, and go for what you love. But how are you going to get paid it?
David Burkus [20:01]
Yeah, and what in four years is is a bit of a rock star thing i and this is I was saving this for my sermon on the mic, but a lot of it is giving you giving yourself a long enough runway, right? And I think a lot of people don’t sort of realize that maybe we save up some money, and we then we quit our job, we’re going to go do our thing. And then when it doesn’t work out in six months, we just end up applying for new jobs, etc. And then we think like, well, I tried that I didn’t fail like No, it didn’t fail. You just didn’t give it a long enough time, I had a conversation. After my first book came out, which that was about three and a half years after I had started sort of all of this work and podcasts and articles and stuff to bring to build a platform, first book came out, I wouldn’t even call that sort of the money started. That was the trickle. So three and a half years, and we have this trickle. And I remember a couple months after the book came out, I’m talking with Daniel Pink, who’s become a friend and kind of a role model type figure in my life. And you know, one of the things I said was, it was just so frustrating, like how, you know, how do you do this? How, how does this work for you? And the very first thing you said is, look, you got to remember, I’ve been doing this for 17 years, and you’ve been doing it for three, like, give yourself more time, like it’s going to work it. But my advice for you is going to be useless because I’m 17 years down the road that you’re on. And and the world changed in that 17 years as well. So any advice sort of doesn’t necessarily work. The biggest advice is sort of like hustle, but be patient at the same time.
David Ralph [21:26]
And that that is the difficult thing, isn’t it? I remember somebody on a podcast, I don’t really listen to podcasts very often. But there was a guy in a podcast talking about drummers. And he was saying the world’s best drummer is no different from the world’s worst drummer ever been. They’ve been doing it longer. And it’s as simple as that. You’ve got to bang this thing to make a noise. And the fact one’s going to do did you do like Phil Collins? And the other ones just going to do? It’s just different time zones? timelines?
David Burkus [21:56]
Yeah, no, I so one of my hobbies is Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, which is a graphic or wrestling sport. And one of the things that we say is that a blue belt and a black belt know the exact same thing blue belts about two years into the sport, black belts about eight to 10 years into the sport. They know the same thing. The difference in that eight years of practice is timing, and, and leverage and all of sort of the little find things that make it better, but the actual curriculum, the techniques, the moves, etc, you know, that within two years of training, then you spend the next eight years just refining sort of the subtle little things about it, that that changed the game entirely for you. Why, Paul, why pause?
David Ralph [22:33]
Is that what we’re saying?
David Burkus [22:36]
Well, we don’t that’s not part of the curriculum in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, but Sure,
David Ralph [22:40]
yes, exactly. Yeah, exactly. If it weren’t for Mr. Miyagi, it would work for anyone I think, you know, he was a legend with me, Mr. Miyagi. So your book that’s just come out? Of course, we’re going to talk about it, and we’re going to talk about it shortly. But how do you get your ideas? Did your ideas come to you from the angels? Or a conversations you have with people? Hmm, as you get all these ideas for different books?
David Burkus [23:03]
Well, I guess I wrote a book about how they don’t come from the angels. So I can’t say that. You know, a lot of it. I mean, how do you how do you get any good idea you because you start with lots of ideas. And so what what tends to happen, and I had to be totally frank with you have no idea. And at this point where the first book idea came from, but what happens when you’re writing a book is you, you find these little rabbit trails that you want to go on, but for the sake of like meeting the deadline that the publisher said, You can’t go on them, right, so you sort of table them. And then once you’re done with that book, you start looking into it a bit further. And, and usually you have four or five different idea, at least for me, I have four or five different ideas of stuff I want to explore once this project is over. And of the four and five, three to four of them are terrible. And but one of them won’t leave you alone. And so you start to kind of cultivate that idea. So like, for example, for the new book, in both of my prior books, I included studies from network scientists and thought it was fascinating, but didn’t have the time to really dive into that world. And so I thought, you know, one day, I should look into this further. And that idea just wouldn’t leave me alone. And so then you start and you go, all right, well, let me let me phrase out, like, what would let me write out a table of contents of sort of how this argument would be structured? And then let me write a proposal to see if this thing has any viability, right. And then, and then let me pitch it and see if a publisher is interested. Oh, they’re interested. All right, well, I guess I better do this. Right. So it’s sort of a, you have a bunch of different ideas that slowly build one of them builds better than all of the others. And that’s the one you pursue.
David Ralph [24:29]
And then by the way, is a book at its core, a vanity project, because we all talk about creating the Avatar and building products based on what the avatars asking, but with a book, it seems like you’re walking around having these ideas and then writing it and it could go on a shelf, and nobody wants
David Burkus [24:45]
it, I suppose. Well, I mean, I think it depends, right? I think there are definitely books out there that you sort of publishers know that the market is going to respond to this. And now we just need to find some, you know, Porsche lap to hire to write it. But but we already figured out the customer Avatar and decided to design the product for it. I think I mean, that said, I’ve been really fortunate in my life that all of my books sort of started out as a personal interest. I mean, really, like, I had a conversation a long time ago with a person that I went to graduate school with. And he asked me, would you ever go back, we were talking about just other subjects that we would want to study and said, Would you ever go back and do like another master’s degree? And I said, Well, no, I don’t really know why we do that. And he’s like, What do you mean, like, well, I don’t know why I would pay a university $30,000 to study with them for two years, when I could write a proposal for a publisher and say, I want to study this topic. And here’s the book that’s going to come out of it, and then pay me. So so. So in a sense, it kind of is that I mean, each book sort of starts has that own interest that said, I mean, it took it took me a while. So for this new book, it took me a while to figure out okay, what is the the market appeal of another book about network science? Because there’s a couple of them out there. Right. And, and that’s when it sort of came to me that the big appeal is that there are a bunch of books by people who study network science that are Hey, isn’t this aren’t all of these insights, fascinating. And then there’s a bunch of networking advice books, and they’re both of these categories are good, but they don’t talk to each other. And so my hope is to kind of link these two communities together and go, Well, here’s the advice, and the stories and the examples that are actually in line with the science. And so they probably work universally, whereas a lot of people’s advice is just an autobiography of what worked for them.
David Ralph [26:18]
And so what has worked for you in the book. Okay, so we’re talking now about the networking book friend of a friend. Did stuff just naturally come out of you? Or did you have to heavily research it? Did you have to go around talking to people how they did it? How did you get it together?
David Burkus [26:35]
Yeah, so the thing that I wanted to do first was I wanted to learn everything I could about network science. And so I you know, at this point, I don’t have a master’s degree in in network science, but I’ve read pretty pretty much every significant study that’s influenced the field. And so you know, for and when I say network science, it actually is kind of a merger of a couple different places, sociology, computer networks, mathematics, psychology, there’s a couple different fields where people get into the studying how networks form and interact, etc. And over the course of that study, I found a bunch of things that were sort of universal principles that every network had in common, even beyond just human networks, networks of computer systems, networks of food chain networks, in ecology, etc. There are certain sort of uniform principles that every network has in common. And so that that became kind of the niche, or the idea for how to structure the book was maybe what you don’t need is a bunch of advice. Maybe what you need is a tutorial on this is how the network that you’re already in, is operating. And so it would behoove you to sort of learn this so that you can figure out how to respond accordingly. And you, we could use the term grow your network, but it’s really not the proper term, it’s really more like this is how to interact in the network. That is the industry that you work in.
David Ralph [27:42]
And it’s harder to network now, virtually, because in the old days, I think we don’t meet up in a Merc marketplace, and we don’t have a chat. And so it would just naturally a co imagine, is it a lot harder now, because of the way that we’re operating?
David Burkus [27:57]
Well, I would say it’s harder, and it’s easier, right? The amazing thing about technology is that it’s made it far easier to reach out and connect with people that you would never actually encounter in that marketplace, right. So that in that regard, it’s easier, it’s also harder to break through sort of the noise and the people that are doing things terribly, etc. So one of the things we explore in the book is that essentially, unless you are using online tools as a compliment, or as a supplement to your existing offline network, they’re not going to be all that effective. It’s not enough to just oh, this is my online friend like that doesn’t exist, you’re either using the online tools to eventually get to meet that person in person, soon and become part of your sort of real world connection, or you’re using it as a tool to stay in touch with people that you know, in those real world connections that you met in the marketplace, example, etc. Anything beyond that tends to be sort of ineffective, it tends to be I mean, we’ve all we’ve all gotten those like LinkedIn requests from people that then boast about how many LinkedIn connections they have, and all that kind of stuff, that tends to not work. And there’s actually studies show that a lot of people that are that are using social media as a replacement, not a supplement to their existing friendship networks, having increased feelings of loneliness, etc. So it really doesn’t work effectively. Unless it’s a compliment to what you’re doing offline. If you use it that way. It’s a fantastic tool.
David Ralph [29:16]
Now, LinkedIn, LinkedIn is one of those places, you you love it for certain things. And yeah, I’ve spent last two weeks deleting congrats on your work anniversary. And if I if I could work out how to actually turn this thing off, I don’t know. But must have been about 400 of these things. But as I was deleting them thinking, yeah, okay. All right. Thank you. Thank you, thank you. And I wasn’t even sure what the work anniversary was they were thanking me for. I saw this guy. And he’s quite well known in the online environment. And he’s been on the show. And he posted on linked in, I want to have a tour of the Disney Pixar studios. So I’m using social media to get it. And he sort of posted it out like a kind of weird request. Is that a good one? abusing networking? Is that strange? is he using his name? Because he isn’t a well known name? What do you think about that approach?
David Burkus [30:07]
So I mean, I’m actually a little shocked that he was that sort of forthright? I would, I would think the proper approach would just be to broadcast it, does anyone have a connection to at Disney Pixar? Right? And just that, that kind of a question. And in truth, I actually think the tool is best used the opposite way. So I think the best way to use a lot of these tools for most people, if you’re sort of the online platform builder, is you’re using it as a tool, just like you know, a lot of people now use LinkedIn as the same way they would use Twitter as sort of keep you updated on my work, etc. But if you’re one of sort of the majority of people who are using it, to stay in touch with work colleagues, etc, then the most effective thing is actually not to post all that often, but to be reading other people’s posts. So I mean, you have a tremendous opportunity for value. If you have a connection to Disney Pixar to create value in that person’s life. I think one of the best things you can do in general is as you’re scrolling through that newsfeed when you see something that you could potentially help on, whether that’s through referring somebody to an article, offering an introduction, giving them I mean, leaving little things like I noticed, you’re in New York, here’s a restaurant recommendation, etc. Even little things like that are a great opportunity to check back in with what in the network science research we call weak ties or dormant ties, people that you know, but you don’t know that well, or you haven’t talked to you in a really long time, they actually tend to be the best sources of information, because they’re so separated from you that they are swimming in a different pond for you know, to use a terrible analogy. And so they have access to different information and different resources, etc. So I think the tool can be used in the reverse like that broadcasting sort of what you need is a little a little forward, I don’t know that that goes over all that well. But if other people are already broadcasting updates on their life, it can be an incredible opportunity to check back in and offer something of help. Here’s the key though, you don’t necessarily want to reach out to that person in that same service that they’re posting about. So you don’t want to click like or comment, or send them a congrats on your work anniversary inbox thing, I do the same thing. I get hundreds of them every day. Well, actually, I guess I should say every year, right, because that’s the definition of anniversary. But what you can do is see it there and then take it to a little bit more personal medium. So email, text message, phone call, if you’re that close, whatever that is, I think it can be a great tool for keeping in touch with those weaken dormant ties and offering help to sort of rekindle that connection. Beyond that I shy away from sort of broadcasting what I need, because I think it’s a little forward to just broadcast it out there like that. Unless it’s a giant social experiment where you’re just trying to see how far it goes. You know, I do tend to click Share on all those people holding up signs that say, you know, let’s let’s see how far this picture of my granddad the world war two veteran can go. I think those are kind of cool. Let’s just be honest.
David Ralph [32:40]
He he did the guy with the does not picks up, he did get a lot of requests saying, Yeah, no problem. I will put you through to my mate, Mr. B lightyear and Miss Mr. Woody and things like that.
David Burkus [32:53]
He probably deserved them.
David Ralph [32:54]
Yeah, yeah, he probably did. Now, I loved what you were saying about reaching out to people and saying, Oh, I saw a face and because you’re in that environment. And I thought, Yeah, that’s great. That’s not spammy. But what about the kind of virtual net network people have built up? Where certainly in this environment, I get so many people wanting to connect with me? I don’t know them at all. I’ve never met them. I don’t even know where they are. Is it? Is that a bit weird for me to even offer out and say, Oh, I see that you in Los Angeles, and there’s a Rolling Stones concert on Saturday night? Is it? Is that a bit we’re doing it that way, even though it’s kind of connecting them to something that they might have been interested?
David Burkus [33:32]
Oh, so again, so it depends. So remember that I think these tools are the most efficient when they’re used to supplement an offline relationship. So assuming you actually know this person face to face, even though they live in Los Angeles, etc, you know, you and you can, there are various if this is where we skip from sort of science to art, there are various different ways that you can make that connection. So you know, you don’t have to go look up what concerts in the area, but you can sort of ping and go, you know, I was just thinking about this awesome restaurant that I had dinner in in Los Angeles, have you ever been there and just as a means to strike up a conversation, I don’t know that I would do that to a random connection, that just is a you know, fan of your show. So they sent you a LinkedIn request, you’re you’re in a bit of a unique medium that you use LinkedIn probably in a bit different way than 95% of people do. Because you’re also sort of this is where your audience is and wants to connect with you. And so you have to be a little more open than most people. So I don’t know that I would go that far to do it with total strangers that have just sent you a LinkedIn request. However, if they’re total strangers that essentially LinkedIn request, and you want to get to know them a bit further, it’s a good tool to open up a conversation that hopefully transforms into some schedule to actually meet up in person at a conference or when you’re in Los Angeles or something like that down the road. It just depends on what your intentions are for that relationship.
David Ralph [34:47]
Now, I’m always so surprised I showed my wife the other day, the amount of requests I get from on Facebook friend requests, from 28 year old girls in bikinis, taking photos of themselves in bathroom mirrors, I must have those about 30 times a week, do you get the same ones?
David Burkus [35:04]
So I don’t, I did. But I’ve actually taken my, my, my personal profile on Facebook, incredibly private, it’s actually really hard to find the personal one, my public one probably does. But those are just people clicking like, you know, those, I’m fairly certain those are Russian bots, after everything. I’m fairly certain they’re just trying to get me to change my vote in an election or something like that. No, I
David Ralph [35:30]
actually thought I was attractive. They wanted to get to know me better. They were showing ID why
David Burkus [35:36]
you think that I yeah, I totally understand why you think that I just I know that that can’t possibly be the case. And so, so I have a bit more suspicion. So yeah, I mean, I again, I think those are the those are totally just sort of, you know, bots, that you spammers that you need ignored. That said, you know, you bring up a really interesting point, which is that we feel we tend to feel much, much more open into sending a connection request to someone on LinkedIn than we do on Facebook, right. I think everybody has sort of different rules for how they treat the social, the different social network services, and they have sort of different levels of intimacy, maybe Twitter being the most open one, LinkedIn being the second most, and Facebook being the most sort of one that’s supposed to map your kind of real world connections. Now, whatever it is, I think it’s fine. Everybody has different rules for how they use the tools, just I think it’s important to have certain rules, and then stick by them. So for example, Twitter, anybody can follow me, LinkedIn, anybody can send me a connection request. And I’ll keep it until you spam me with something, then I’ll disconnect you. And then on Facebook, it’s basically I have to have met you in person and be comfortable with you looking at pictures of my kids, for me to invite you into sort of the personal private one. That isn’t even my name. That
David Ralph [36:50]
Well, are you pretending you are Chinese female age 20 on there as well?
David Burkus [36:55]
I am I actually sent you a friend request the other day.
David Ralph [36:57]
I love that one. That was my favorite one. I’ve been speaking to her all week.
David Burkus [37:03]
Yeah, yeah. No, but so every everybody has a little bit different rules. And I think it’s fine to set whichever ones you want. Just set them and stick to them don’t necessarily make all of those different exemptions. And again, the thing to sort of reiterate is, I don’t know that these tools are all that effective if your goal is just to run up as many virtual friends as you can, unless you’re using it as a tool to eventually either either help you maintain existing online offline networks or as a tool to get engaged in a community of people that then leads to you meeting with them face to face, eventually, it’s the very effective for that purposes, I think a lot of people just start, oh, I just want to run up the count of the people that I know. And I’m just sending a bunch of stuff. And that’s that’s the total wrong approach. And it’s part of sort of a generally wrong mental model that we attack in the book, which is that you don’t grow a network, you don’t grow a following a number of people that are connected to you, the best thing you can do is realize that we’re all one network, 7.4 billion people strong and counting, and then navigate that network appropriately. Now, before we play the words of Steve Jobs, it’s been a bit of a different show, because we haven’t delved that much into your back story. But what was the thing? Doing the book, but you suddenly went, Oh, my God, oh, my God, this is like a game changer for us. Yep, so this is actually so the first half of the book is really a lot of those sort of personal networking tips. So the weak ties connection will what’s the deal with Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon, all of those sort of things. And later, as we delve into a couple other principles in the book, we look at what are things that affect networks as a whole. So you can look at this as organizational advice or societal advice, etc. And probably the most surprising thing wasn’t a wasn’t something that happened in reading the research and going, Oh, my gosh, this is fantastic. I have to read about it was that I was like most of America, I was watching the election returns on november eighth or November 9, I don’t remember what time everything was called. I feel like it was actually the next day. And one of the things I was most surprised by was how surprised everyone was at the result. And the reason that I was most surprised at that is that you would think especially if you’re a news station, that you would have developed sort of a diversity and you have somebody on your panel that could be like, Well, no, I know exactly why this happened. Right. But you you did you want in the US, you just watched panels after panels after panels on various cable news channels have shocked people. I mean, even Fox News seems shocked, right, which you would think if anybody had a clue what was going on, they probably would have figured it out. And it speaks to a principle in network science called home awfully or love of same that essentially, we’ve known about him awfully for a long time. They’re all of those phrases, birds of a feather flock together, right, like attracts like, all of those sort of things. What we learned from network science is that it’s actually less about our internal preferences to be around people that we know, and more about how that small preference starts compounding because once you meet a couple people that are like you and you, and they become close to you in the network, they often become your sources of new connections. And so they refer you and connect you to people who are like you, and then that sort of spirals downhill or uphill, depending on your preference. That sort of spirals away to the point where one day you look in your deep inside this cluster of people who all look alike act like think alike. And when we started analyzing What in the world happened in November of 2016, one of the things that we saw was, was Hey, it really looks like the the Clinton campaign totally ignored the sort of union Rust Belt employees, the very people that used to be the bedrock of the Democratic Party just kind of ignored them never went to Wisconsin went to Michigan once right just didn’t speak to those people. And so no wonder that they didn’t see that those people were at risk, the risk of losing those votes far more than they thought. I mean, there, there are a myriad different theories about what was going on behind the scenes election. But almost all of them can see that the biggest single influencer was that it wasn’t so much Trump winning as it was Hillary losing, you know, and the Clinton campaign just ignoring voters in certain states that had they paid attention to, right and had they seen the same of, they probably would have won, but everybody was sort of clustered off into this model. And this idea, and there wasn’t enough information going on for elsewhere, elsewhere in the network, feeding information down to this core team to persuade them to have a little bit different tactic. And so I mean, history is filled with examples of people making terrible decisions, because they didn’t have access to information. And the primary reason they didn’t have access to the information is they were in a network that was too self similar, that was too filled with him awfully and not diverse enough to get them the information they need to make a good decision.
David Ralph [41:31]
And that’s what a spy skills was so successful, I suppose they will all very, very different. They play to their strengths.
David Burkus [41:38]
Well, you know, the Spice Girls are actually a totally different network effect, which is that I’ve always found it amazing that they would sell like 60 million albums. And yet I don’t know a single person who admits to having one. So totally different network effect that we have learned.
David Ralph [41:52]
And I tell you what, really meaty one, I could, I could give you a whole rendition. Now. My daughter, she was really heavily into them, but she’s gone on to become cool. And now I play them very loud in the car because it embarrasses, which is quite good. No, that’s, that’s, that’s actually a great strategy. Yeah. So that that’s what we need to do, we need to get different kind of blood into our network to make it really strong the way
David Burkus [42:14]
Exactly, and we need to realize that just sort of being open to new connections alone is not enough. Because those new connections are usually going to be very self similar, we have to actually be very deliberate about reaching out to communities and that are different than us, and asking for connections from friends that are very different from us, those are going to be the most beneficial.
David Ralph [42:33]
Brilliant stuff. Well, I’ve been going to be thinking we have to play these words, because I don’t quite fit into the show. But I’d be fascinated to know your spin on them is Steve Jobs
Steve Jobs [42:42]
Of course, it was impossible to connect the dots looking forward when I was in college. But it was very, very clear looking backwards 10 years later. Again, you can’t connect the dots looking forward, you can only connect them looking backwards. So you have to trust that the dots will somehow connect in your future. You have to trust in something, your gut, destiny, life, karma, whatever, because believing that the dots will connect down the road will give you the confidence to follow your heart Even when it leaves you off the well worn path and that will make all the difference.
David Ralph [43:17]
So to sit and listen to those words and do you buy into them Do you think that they are words of the ages aren’t just true?
David Burkus [43:24]
Yeah, I mean, you know in in typical Steve Jobs fashion that’s actually just sort of a stole that from an ancient philosopher Soren Kierkegaard you know, just the same way that the mat copy the Xerox Xerox graphical user interface, but we’ll give it will give jobs some credit there. No, I QPR, I’d say that life must be lived forward, but can only be understood backwards, right. And I think that’s definitely true. I mean, I’ve only hinted at elements of my story. But you know, I didn’t know at 18 years old, that was the type of writer I was going to be was the sort of business book social science writer, I thought I was going to be a novelist, I thought I was pretty terrible at writing fiction, but something I was what I was going to do. And occasionally I would try my hand at poetry, because it just seemed easier to write 200 words than to write a 2000 word short story. But, so you have to kind of trust that and then, you know, I went into I mean, even the accidental professorship was sort of a this is, I can see how this might play into everything else that I want to do. And so let’s take this leap. And and I look back. And the unifying line, the line that gets connected when we join up all the dots is this idea of my most of my work now involves taking well researched what I call them good ideas, usually from academics, but from, you know, a scientific basis, and translating them into practice putting handles on them to make them easier to use this tools, right, the line I would say is that I’m trying to get good ideas out of the ivory tower and into the corner office, or the CO working space, or the coffee shop, or the or the recording shack in the back of your garden, wherever good ideas need to get implemented. I’m trying to get them out from the ivory tower and into that world so they can get you to life earlier. And I see that in a variety of different things that I’ve done throughout my life, the least of which is writing and speaking. And what would be a big dolt. What would be the moment when you think yeah, I think I’m really the only game here. I think this is what I’m going to do for the rest of my life. I mean, I’m not sure there is a big dot I’ll be honest with you. I think there’s a lot of this is why I like this join up dots right. It’s I think there’s lots of little dots. I think, you know, I think that everybody I know that has that I would look at is like oh, they’re successful, they’ve arrived is also sort of dissatisfied, I think it’s healthy, to be a little dissatisfied with where you are, I think you need to be gracious. But I think it’s also healthy, to be a little dissatisfied. So I don’t I think that if there is a big dot, it’s always on the horizon. And you’re always sort of acquiring those little dots. And the trick is to be gracious for what you’ve got, while also pursuing bigger things.
David Ralph [45:48]
That’s the rubbish thing, though, isn’t it David that’s, that’s I struggle with that I had these big achievements. And I think I should be going Whoo hoo. But I don’t I just feel flat and deflated. And afterwards, I’ll just spend a bit rubbish. I can’t seem to get that feeling of being truly satisfied of where I am.
David Burkus [46:05]
Yeah, I mean, it’s a it’s an interesting trick. I think it’s a it takes a lot of regular reminders, it takes some savoring and probably, you know, you probably need to just deliberately buy bottles of champagne more often. So you can crack them open for random reasons. But because you’re exactly right, I think I think most of the sort of driven, especially entrepreneurial people that you climb that mountain and you look over, you’re like, Oh, crap, there’s a bigger mountain. All right, let’s go back down. Let’s start it again. Right. And I think the truth, I think that’s perfectly fine. Because we don’t want you to stay on that mountain. I mean, especially if it’s a certain height, you’ll probably die. So you definitely got to get back down. But you’ve got to sort of learn that fine art of micro celebrations as you move forward.
David Ralph [46:45]
So we have been moving forward. And just before we hit the end, which is the Sermon on the mic, what kind of people do you think out there will really gain the most from a friend of a friend.
David Burkus [46:56]
So I think probably anybody that’s ever been frustrated by networking advice, that’s the first sort of target audience, if you’ve given up on it, if you’ve tried to apply it, and then you felt really inauthentic at that meeting, etc, if you Defined Networking is just going to those cocktail parties, and then you hate doing that, then I think this is a different sort of approach on it. And so I think, and Nao, if you if you also love those meetings, maybe there’s a couple tips in here for how to get better at those. But I think fundamentally, it’s for those people that are kind of turned off by the idea of networking, because all they’ve been doing is trying to apply other people’s advice. This isn’t advice. This is science, drawing from sample sizes of 10s of thousands of people, right, and this is teaching you how the network actually operates, it’s actually on you to figure out how you turn that into advice for your life. My goal is just teach you how it works. So you can work it properly. That’s clever,
David Ralph [47:41]
that is clever. Because more often than not, I get these books, and I flick through them and I think I’m never gonna do this. I couldn’t couldn’t possibly do this.
David Burkus [47:49]
We I call it the sample size of one dilemma. Right? So I mean, those those sort of CO books are the I’m a master networker. So here’s my advice book there. I mean, they’re, they’re decent. It’s kind of cool to connect people stories, but it’s a sample size of one. And in social science, you would you would never get a paper published with a sample size of one you’d need like 250 or more people to sort of take everybody’s experiences together, toss out the outliers and find out okay, what is universally true about this experience? And, and so that’s why you need in, I think you need insights from network science, not advice from networkers?
David Ralph [48:21]
Well, we will have all the links, of course, for the books on the show notes. But I imagine you can go over to Amazon and all major book shops to get that. But of course, we have at the part of the show that we call the Sermon on the mic, where we’re going to send you back in time to have a one on one with the younger David and if you could go back in time and speak to him. Which version would you seek? And what advice would you give him? Well, we’re going to find out because I’m going to play the theme. And when it fades, you’re up. This is the Sermon on the mic.
Unknown Speaker [48:56]
With the best.
David Burkus [49:12]
Every time I hear it, I laugh. So So you started a podcast, awesome, you have delusions of grandeur, that it’s going to be the most popular thing in the universe. Awesome, you’re probably going to get there. But it’s going to take you longer than you think. And many, many years from now a decade plus from now, you’re going to be asked at a workshop on designing your life to pick a metaphor for how to deal with the the tension that you feel to want to have arrived and also appreciate how to be gracious for what you have. And the metaphor is, is a fine restaurant where there is a ton going on in the kitchen to create fine meals. And there are people who are hustling hard. They have one Michelin star they want to etc. And in the dining room, there are people who are having a great time who are savoring life who are enjoying the food, who are hanging out with friends. And your trick is going to be hard to figure out how to go back and forth between the dining room and the restaurant. Often your trick is to figure out how to hustle while also savoring because it’s going to take way longer than you think to become an overnight success. And so you might as well hustle hard, but you have to take those breaks to savor and enjoy where you are. Otherwise, you’re probably going to burn out. So hustle hard, but have patience and savor the victories as they come.
David Ralph [50:27]
Yeah, great advice. And if people are listening for or looking for a different podcast, go over to David he’s done like 150 episodes. There’s it’s very rare that I mean, anyone who’s come anywhere close to me, but yeah, I hate
David Burkus [50:40]
to disappoint you. It’s not 850 it’s it’s those are seasons. So it’s actually eight seasons of about 40 episodes of season.
David Ralph [50:46]
Oh, I looked at it and I thought it was 140 episodes. I thought well done to you, sir.
David Burkus [50:52]
Yeah, no, I just I mean, I’m a I grew up in the 80s and early 90s. I’m a child of television. And so I always loved the way that TV mark their seasons, were first two numbers of the season secondary numbers, the episode count. So you’ve always done that for the podcast and said,
David Ralph [51:05]
I’m slightly deflated. You see, I’ve had this this the wind, you should,
David Burkus [51:10]
you shouldn’t feel deflated, you should feel proud that you have way more episodes than me.
David Ralph [51:15]
Okay, I’m going for the bigger is best scenario, I’m gonna
David Burkus [51:18]
go get a bottle of champagne I told you to buy.
David Ralph [51:20]
That’s what I’m gonna do until it deflates again, and it leaves me. But this is the end of the show. And this is the part where I’ve just got to say to you, what’s the number one best way that our audience can connect with you, sir.
David Burkus [51:31]
So that I mean, the single best way is, like you said is probably to head over to the website david Burke is calm, there’s podcasts there, there’s a bunch of resources from the book. And obviously, I would love for you to look up great bookstore and find the book etc. But there’s a ton of free resources on that site that you can check out to decide if it is for you, etc. So that’s probably the best place to go. Plus, then you can connect with me on social network of choice. It’s probably not going to be Facebook, because you can have a hard time finding me but wherever you want to have that conversation go. We can we can do it there. We can start at David burgers calm and we can keep it going from there.
David Ralph [52:03]
Brilliant stuff. And we will have all the links on the show notes David, thank you so much for spending time with us today, joining up those dots. And of course, please come back again, when you’ve got more dots to join up. Because I do believe that by joining up the dots and connecting our past is the best way to build up futures. David Berkus. Thank you so much,
David Burkus [52:21]
guys, thank you so much for having me.
David Ralph [52:26]
Back cuz he was, was me a business school professor that you would like to actually study with? I’m sure you would. Well, what do you think about that networking advice? I thought it was some good stuff here. I really did. And I struggle with networking, I get so many requests from different people. You never know who’s the good one, and who’s the bad one, and whether you should be proactive. So I’m certainly going to get that book friend of a friend. I’m going to get it from Amazon and see about doing things in a different way and then not a spammy way in a useful way. Because we understand that don’t we our core, we understand that by providing value first is the best way to build valuable connections in our life. But of course, how do we do that without seeming cheesy somehow, Brenda brand is the way to do it. Until next time, thank you so much for being here at join up dots if you want to come across to the program. You can connect with us on Facebook, and join our free coaching. And if you want podcast training, we’ve got a load of great stuff at podcasters mastery.com. Just jump across there as well. And join our free training and you’ll see me live doing me fighting. But until next time, look up yourself. Thank you so much. Cheers. Bye bye
David doesn’t want you to become a faded version of the brilliant self you are wants to become so he’s put together an amazing guide for you called the eight pieces of advice that every successful entrepreneur practices, including the two that changed his life. Head over to join up dots.com to download this amazing guide for free and we’ll see you tomorrow on join up dots.