Dr Grant Brenner Joins Us On The Join Up Dots Podcast
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Introducing Dr. Grant Brenner
Dr Grant Brenner is a board certified physician-psychiatrist based in Manhattan’s Chelsea neighborhood.
Utilizing a unique combination of cutting edge neuroscientific theories and adaptive personal engagement, his creative and highly personalized approach allows his patients to realize who they really are and create transformative and undeniable positive change, within themselves and the relationships around them.
As he says “Throughout our life, we develop protective habits based on interactions with other people.
If we only received affection from our parents when we did everything perfectly, perfectionist tendencies and people-pleasing can become habits as grown adults.
On the flip side, if we were always told we couldn’t succeed by those who cared for us, failure can feel like an absolute dead end, leaving you hopeless.
How The Dots Joined Up For Grant
Psychiatrist Dr. Grant Brenner is the co-author of three books, and his latest, Making Your Crazy Work for You is a step-by-step program for self-understanding and catalyzing change.
“One of the most unexpected lessons of this adventure is the realization that, when I ‘get it wrong’ and mess things up, acceptance of myself and connection with others is necessary to ‘getting it right’ and straightening things out again,” says Dr. Brenner.
Otherwise, without a loving connection with myself, I won’t even be able to identify the parts of myself about which I have to be able to tell the truth so that reconciliation and healing can take place.
So what is the biggest part of crazy he sees in most people time and time again?
And why do we need help to see these blind spots when we more often than not are experts in seeing them in other people?
Well lets find out as we start joining up dots with the one and only Dr Grant Brenner.
Show Highlights
During the show we discussed such weighty subjects with Dr Grant Brenner such as:
Why everybody across the world in the world can often be limited in their thinking by getting stuck in the blame game.
We discuss why people who create huge success in their lives often find themselves reaching out to mentors during the process.
And lastly……
Why if you dont have a centre in life then you can get into trouble. Find your base and work outwards from that point.
How To Connect With Dr Grant Brenner
Return To The Top Of Dr Grant Brenner
You can also check our extensive podcast archive by clicking here – enjoy
Full Transcription Of Dr Grant Brenner Interview
Intro [0:01]
Life shouldn’t be hard life should be a fun filled adventure every day. So now start joining up dots tap into your talents, your skills, your God given gifts and tell your boss, you don’t deserve me. I’m out of here. It’s time for you to smash that alarm clock. And start getting the dream business and wife you will, of course, are dreaming of. Let’s join your host, David Ralph from the back of his garden in the UK, or wherever he might be today with another JAM PACKED episode of the number one hit podcast. Join Up Dots.
David Ralph [0:41]
Yeah, good morning to you and listeners a Join Up Dots. Thank you very much to all of you, every single one of you who are sharing your ears with us today. Now this is going to be an interesting conversation because this is something that we haven’t done recently or we haven’t done for a couple of years I’ve been we have got a certified physician psychiatrist who’s based in Manhattan’s Chelsea’s neighbourhood on the show. Now utilising a unique combination of cutting edge neuro scientific theories and adaptive personal engagement. yet clever words, he’s creative and highly personalised approach allows his patients to realise who they really are, and create transformative and undeniable positive change within themselves and the relationships around them. As he says, throughout our life, we develop protective habits based on interactions with other people. And if we only received affection from our parents, when we did everything perfectly, perfectionist tendencies and people pleasing can become habits as grown adults. And on the flip side, if we’re always told we couldn’t succeed by those who cared for us, by failure can feel like an absolute dead end, leaving you hopeless. Now he’s the co author of three books and his latest making your crazy work for you is a step by step programme for self understanding, and catalysing a change. One of the most unexpected lessons of this adventure, he says is the realisation that when I get it wrong and mess things up, acceptance of myself and connection with others is unnecessary to getting it right and straightening things out again. So what is the biggest part of crazy he sees in most people time and time again it and maybe there’s not one? And why do we need help to see the blind spots? When we more often than not are experts in seeing them in other people? Well, let’s find out as we bring onto the show to start joining up dots with the one and only Dr. Grant Brenner. Good morning to you, Dr. Grant. How are you?
Dr Grant Brenner [2:35]
Good morning, David. How are you doing today?
David Ralph [2:37]
I’m always doing all right. Dr. Grant. I have me tired days. Yeah, but I’m pretty much I am all right. I don’t think I’m crazy. I don’t think I’m crazy at all. Oh, am I let’s cut to the chase. You’ve been speaking to me for maybe three minutes now. Am I crazy?
Dr Grant Brenner [2:54]
Well, I mean, you have to be crazy to work here. Right? You know, that’s what people say.
David Ralph [2:59]
Yeah, about I am. Am I crazy in a day to day basis away from the work? You know, can you assess me straight away and go? Yes, you’ve got elements of crazy in you.
Dr Grant Brenner [3:12]
I, you know, I kind of think we all do. And obviously the title of the book is, is trying to own the idea of being crazy. Not in a in a medical like psychiatric sense. But in the sense that every human being has, we all have a part of ourselves or maybe almost all of us, where where we have like creativity where we have openness to a lot of possibilities, where we dream, like like the opening of your show says where we dream of something else. Or even the intro, you know, like smash the alarm clock, you know, quit your job like that’s quote unquote, crazy. So yeah, sure, you’re, you’re crazy. I’m crazy. And if you don’t like really live fully right, then that kind of doesn’t make sense either. So our work is really about helping people tap into whatever it is in themselves. And that people sometimes call crazy in a good way. Or like when they say that you’re crazy about something. I saw a new movie. I’m crazy about it. I just started dating someone. I’m crazy about them.
David Ralph [4:13]
Now, it’s interesting, because yeah, we all have that we all go, oh, yeah, I’d really love to do this. I love it. And you speak to people, I’ve been saying the same things for 20 years, they they never actually move on to the next stage. So why don’t let’s get to the nutshell of this. Why is this crazy innovation, build your own dream life and stuff, just something that people have in them and they don’t tap into?
Dr Grant Brenner [4:40]
I think you know, for a lot of people that goes back to how we’re raised I know your show is like light so you know if you grew up in an environment where you weren’t allowed to be yourself or or you know, in our work, where were the the parents or the environment wasn’t really adequate to support you know, being who you are reserved Millions, you know, et cetera, et cetera, then who you think you are as a person is, is is limited, right? And so how do you deal with that kind of stuckness. And particularly, one thing you mentioned is that people who are more perfectionistic, or really who function by blaming themselves, rather than kind of supporting themselves and encouraging themselves will often succeed to a point. And then they get stuck. And they kind of don’t know why
David Ralph [5:28]
I was talking to somebody the other day, and they have a couple of kids, and the kids have got a few problems and stuff, which is fair that you know, people have problems, but not one part of the discussion focused in on maybe our parenting wasn’t up to scratch, maybe, you know, we might have been a slight part of the problem here. And isn’t that one of the reasons why people don’t move on? Because they don’t ultimately accept that they are part of the problem? They will say, Oh, it’s because my dad did this, or my mum did that, or my boss does, but but they don’t actually look at themselves.
Dr Grant Brenner [6:05]
Yeah, I think that’s a big part of it. You know, I think it’s really important to understand how we were raised and what the environment is doing. But that information isn’t so you can blame your parents. That information is so we can look at ourselves with, I’d say compassion and kindness, and try to learn, and the trap that you’re describing is where people get stuck, you know, in the blame game, rather than taking that. Okay, this is how I was raised. What am I going to do with that now, and the crucial difference, you know, to use, one of the psychological terms is whether people deal with childhood difficulties, or adult difficulties for that matter in a resilient way. Or whether they, you know, use it to just keep themselves stuck.
David Ralph [6:53]
Now, you want to say, a clever guy, I knew, you know, you’ve had issues, we’ve all had issues. But can you remember your issues, because that’s one of the things I talked to people time and time again on this show. And they will say, if you look back at your childhood, and I’m too far away from it, it just seems like happy days every day. I don’t remember any of the bad things. I don’t remember, anything that might have caused me an issue. What about yourself?
Dr Grant Brenner [7:19]
Yeah, that’s not me. I have a pretty good recall. And I’ve, you know, I’m trained also psychoanalytically. So, you know, I did medical training as a psychiatrist, and then I then I did years of individual therapy, and I started therapy at a young age, because the community that I grew up in, you know, like, a lot of people were in psychotherapy, I grew up in the 1970s, in a relatively intellectual, New Jersey community, and like, everyone saw an analyst. And so my childhood, I had, I had a lot of privilege and support. But there were a lot of things that that were pretty bad. That happened. I don’t know how much detail you want me to go
David Ralph [7:56]
share with you because it gives context to the conversation? Sure, absolutely.
Dr Grant Brenner [8:01]
Well, I mean, the worst thing that I that I and my family experienced in Sorry, I’m a little hesitant talking about, I’m open about it, I’ve written about it on on my blog as well is my mother got cancer when I was shortly after I was born, lymphoma, and she died after a pretty bad battle with illness when I was nine. And there were other problems in the family that were significant. And as you pointed out, I’m kind of, you know, an intellectual, clever, clever guy. I didn’t always fit in, in school, and I experienced a fair amount of teasing and bullying to a certain age. And then, you know, like I said, there were other problems in the family. Thankfully, you know, my family was also well resourced, and I did well in school, which, you know, for a lot of people is the saving grace and it was for me,
David Ralph [8:51]
now, you are very open there where you say, Yeah, you had issues, but you also had opportunities, you had resources. Now, when you look at people, I was having a discussion the other day, actually, on this same subject, how some people will come in, and they have had a terrible childhood. They’ve had really bad upbringing, situation situation, and then they end up being a multimillionaire and and looking like they’ve got the dream. And other people have got almost exactly the same upbringing, but they end up nowhere and just end up in a terrible situation. Is it as enough to say one of them drew a line in the sand and and said no more. It’s only one way from now on and the other one was, was sort of dragging it with them in your sort of psychological brain opening knowledge.
Dr Grant Brenner [9:42]
Yeah, you know, I would say on on the on the basic level, it often seems that something like that is the case that people who have a lot of childhood adversity seem like they either really excel or they end up doing not very well at all, I’m not really sure if anyone has, you know, studied it to see if that’s actually true that it seems like so either or. But when you do look at people who, who succeed or don’t succeed, who have had trauma, then drawing the line in the sand, as you say, is, is one of those key moments where the person sort of says, I can either, you know, I can either take this laying down, or I can kind of stand up and fight. But I think in reality, it’s more like a, like a process over time. And so one of the things that goes into this is, like we said, resilience, where when you look at people with childhood adversity, let’s say their, their family wasn’t that great. What they do is they find people throughout their lives, like teachers, or mentors, who feel that that need to have that other person who can help them develop a good sense of self support them, give them good self esteem, and so on.
David Ralph [10:53]
So you think like we talk about entrepreneurship, one of the most important things is to find a mentor back can sort of eased away somewhat by their previous knowledge.
Dr Grant Brenner [11:05]
Yeah, absolutely. I think it’s pretty rare when you interview someone who’s been very successful and has overcome some terrible things, that they didn’t have other people in their lives, from whom they, they, they got what they needed. And that’s a crucial survival skill is like finding that connection with other people. Because eventually it allows you to have that connection with yourself.
David Ralph [11:29]
And that’s where it all starts, isn’t it, that connection with yourself, it’s, it’s knowing yourself. And I often think if, if I ever got to a point of I was writing my own autobiography, number one, it’d be a bunch of lies, because I can’t remember three weeks ago, let alone what I was doing in my childhood. And I’m not sure if I know myself well enough, even though I’ve been living in this body all my life, I don’t know, what I would be bringing to the table in that regard. Because I seem to live from day to day, I don’t I don’t connect any of the dots going backwards.
Dr Grant Brenner [12:06]
I don’t think everyone has to, you know, and some people will have trouble remembering their childhood. And that’s not unusual. You know, I remember my childhood better than I did. But I was, you know, I was in therapy, you know, in high school and college. But when I did psychoanalytic training in my 30s, you know, I went to therapy three or four times a week for nine years. And, you know, I stopped and had kids and, you know, I didn’t have the time for it. But over the years, I think that process of self reflection, that gets set up, you know, and it requires practice, you know, 10,000 hours. Same thing with self knowledge. What I found over the years is that more and more memories come back. And what happens is you develop over time, if you do that work, a story about yourself, where either you’ve kind of remembered stuff and filled in the blanks that way, or you have ways of describing the blanks to yourself. That makes sense.
David Ralph [13:03]
Yeah, I can see that, because in the United Kingdom, and I am sure it’s changing now. But certainly I grew up in the 70s. We never did therapy, we would have thought it was weird. And even now, we hear it that the you know, the Americans sort of embrace it and how positive it is, and I’m sure it’s hugely positive. But as a country, we’re very much stiff upper lip sorted out yourselves, keep quiet about it, and just sort of keep moving forward. We don’t sort of reach out and, and talk and share.
Dr Grant Brenner [13:34]
Yeah, that’s that’s like stoicism like Marcus Aurelius, right? Yeah, I lived I lived in England, in the UK. I went, I went to school at Oxford poly, okay, you know, for about six months, and it was fantastic. And I really thought, hey, I might really love to move here. There’s something I really like about it. But America definitely has embraced therapy on so many different levels. And you see it in the media a lot too. How are you watching the shows across the pond where there’s tonnes of therapists and stuff like that?
David Ralph [14:06]
I usually watch your any shows. I really am. I’m trying to think what am I watching at the moment? Oh, cowboys. I’m watching a lot of cowboy stuff at the moment. So I’m watching America in 2018 80 threes, and there wasn’t a lot of therapy other than shooting people.
Dr Grant Brenner [14:21]
Well, that can be very cathartic. Yeah, I’m sure he could. You could get the lead out like listening to Led Zeppelin with bullets and made a lead. Nevermind. Yeah, I don’t think everyone needs to be in therapy. I know. You’ll talk to some people and they’ll be like, everyone needs to have therapy. But it’s like a matter of your personality. I don’t think therapy is like the only path but I also think in the UK if if you talk to therapists and you know I interact with therapists on social media in the UK, the national health systems approach to therapy is also something which is is critiqued, but it also fits with what you’re saying about the the stereotype of British society. It is kind of carry on, I watched a tonne of British comedy growing up, you know Benny Hill, Monty Python, you name it. And I remember there’s one Monty Python episode. Are you a Monty Python?
David Ralph [15:09]
Yeah, I think you have to be living over here. Right?
Dr Grant Brenner [15:12]
You know, when, when they’re in the tent in North Africa in World War Two, and like John Cleese walks in, and he, his arm has been cut off, you know, it’s like the black night. So yeah, and his arm is cut off. And he’s like, I could use a cup of tea. And they’re like, your arm has been cut off. And he’s like, you know, it’s okay.
David Ralph [15:31]
That bad thing? Because yeah, that’s exactly what we do, we we just sort of put up with stuff, you know, should we allow crazy to come to the surface you’re being?
Dr Grant Brenner [15:42]
Well, you could say that, that is kind of crazy, is just putting up with stuff. But on the other hand, you could also point out that that is really powerful and is a source of strength, it’s like, if you’re in a tank, you know, there’s a good chance you’re gonna get through stuff. But there’s also certain vulnerabilities that come along with being inside of a tank, right? So it protects you. But under certain circumstances, it also traps you. So I don’t think it’s a good or a bad thing. From my point of view, it’s about being flexible. So in an ideal world, you know, you can you can change how you approach the world, depending on what the world sort of requires.
David Ralph [16:23]
Now, in your book is a step by step process from trauma and isolation to self acceptance and love. Let’s go through it, obviously, you know, we don’t want to go through it in detail. But what kind of person would be a useful reader for you? Well, who would have been your avatar when he was writing this?
Dr Grant Brenner [16:46]
Yeah, this, this is someone who recognises that difficult experiences are holding them back, particularly related to childhood. So it’s someone who might be interested in therapy and wants to get a jumpstart on it in a way, because our book covers a lot of really basic important things about psychology and, and brain biology. And starts off with a self compassion based approach. And then goes into tools for understanding different types of childhood experiences. And then provides tools both for communicating with other people and oneself constructively. And just kind of a step by step process for going from realising there’s a problem to getting to a better place. And so this book is for people who are open to that idea, or who are open to being open to that idea. Well, if your silos highly self,
David Ralph [17:45]
yeah, I’m open to this. So So I’m interested, let’s let’s find my trauma, or how do I find the trauma that I’m denying, but I’ve actually had, because I now I think I have had them, but I kind of can’t remember them. So what would be the first step?
Dr Grant Brenner [18:02]
Sure. Well, I would, I would say, you know, for starters, I don’t assume that people had trauma. And I don’t want to get too wonky about it. But that word itself is pretty loaded. But you can look back. There are there are kind of what standardised rating scales, there’s something called the Adverse Childhood Experiences scale. And that can be a real gut punch. But if you if you look that up online, it asks all these questions. It’s kind of like, How often did your parents fight? How often you know, was there excessive drinking? Did anyone ever make you feel uncomfortable in the way they touched? You know, all these questions, and you can kind of go through that and it will jog people’s memories. And then it actually gives you a score of like, how many aces Do you have? And they there was this famous work in California by Kaiser Permanente where they found that the higher the number of aces, the greater the future risk of, you know, physical and mental health problems is, so you can use a kind of a checklist. There’s also something called the life experiences scale. And, you know, it’s another kind of inventory of adversity.
David Ralph [19:09]
Let’s let’s look at that one. Because that appeals to me the second one, so if somebody’s out there, and I want to judge their life, can you remember off the top of your head? Can we give them a a sort of checklist to go through? Okay,
Dr Grant Brenner [19:23]
so, for people who are listening, I’m going to go through the ACES scale, the Adverse Childhood Experiences scale, it’s can be a little bit tough. So if you find yourself remembering things or feeling things, that’s okay. You can always press pause and take a minute. So the Adverse Childhood Experiences scale asks 11 questions, and I’m gonna go through them. The first one is did you live with anyone who was depressed mentally ill or suicidal? Did you live with anyone who was a problem drinker or alcoholic? Did you live with anyone who use street drugs or who abused prescription medications? Did you live with any One who was in jail or sentenced to serve time in jail or another correctional facility? And bear in mind, these are not about judging. Is it just sort of factual? Were your parents separated? Or did they fight? How often did your parents ever in your home ever slap hit kick? Or were hurt each other? before age? 18? How often? Did an adult in your home ever hit beat physically or physically hurt you in any way? Including spanking? How often did a parent or adult at home ever swear at you insult you? Or put you down? How often? Did anyone ever touch you sexually or in inappropriate ways? And how often did anyone part of part of this is cut off? Sorry, let me scroll over? How often did anyone at least five years older ever touch you sexually? How often? Did anyone at least five years older? Tried to make you touch them sexually? And the last one is how often did anyone at least five years old or forced you to have sex? So the last three questions are about different kinds of sexual abuse, which is associated with problems, you know, in in different ways than other forms of abuse, but it tends to go together. So you know, those those questions, you know, would be potentially scored and added up and give you a sense of kind of the total load of childhood adversity.
David Ralph [21:26]
Now I went through those as he was going through it. And I’ve got nose on every single one, except the one of spanking. And I thought, yeah, I used to get spanked every now and again, if I did something bad, but nothing, you know, nothing bad. But it wasn’t over my mom did used to hit us with a wooden spoon, which now would be against the law, and she’s going to prison. But it was the 70s. And you know, she could take a run up with that spoon in and go for us. But yeah, nose on everything. So where did where does that leave me?
Dr Grant Brenner [21:59]
Well, you know, on first blush, you know, you don’t have any of those experiences. And so it doesn’t sound like according to that rating scale, you experienced those types of traumas. Having said that, there’s also something called intergenerational trauma, which is the culture that we grow up in. And, you know, a lot of people I work with if if you ask them about how their parents where their parents grew up, say in war, where their parents grew up with a very different environment. And sometimes that can get passed on in ways where there isn’t any overt trauma for that person. And things were good growing up. But listen, not everyone has experienced childhood trauma, the rates of childhood trauma are nowhere near 100%. So, you know, I’m not on a fishing expedition to like find trauma, and everyone I work with our book is for people who you know, who are dealing with it.
David Ralph [22:51]
Now, I was talking to my wife, I do a lot of conversations with people. And I was saying how we were the last of the people connected to the sort of war generation, ie I grew up with no internet, I grew up with no email, we didn’t have mobile phones, we didn’t have notifications, we didn’t have any of this. And now, I was sitting on the underground last night in London. And literally every single person was over sharing their conversations with me because they were having to talk to somebody at that time, or they was on on their messaging, or they were looking at the screens or whatever. And I was just saying to her, you know, this is not a good generation to be, you know, what’s their kid’s gonna be like it. I think we had the best of it, but I might be looking back at it with rose tinted glasses. My trauma might be the fact that I’m moving into this world. And I’m not quite ready for it.
Dr Grant Brenner [23:48]
Yeah, that’s, you know, again, like, What do you mean by trauma? Right? Certainly, that’s challenging, but it sounds it sounds like you’re prepared to kind of deal with anything. But what’s happening nowadays is there’s so much uncertainty, and right technology, and culture is shifting so fast, it’s really hard to predict what will happen, I think, in our generation, you know, things looked like they were going to be fairly predictable. And then like, at the very beginning of the, you know, the 2000s, like everything got turned upside down. And then this technology is blowing up and there’s AI and a big thing that I do, you know, in addition to this book is, is thinking about and working with people on Generation Z generation Alpha like, what, what is it going to look like for them?
David Ralph [24:34]
What is generation Alpha? I haven’t heard of generation Alpha. What’s that? Well,
Dr Grant Brenner [24:38]
I think that’s the name that they’re using for the next generation after Gen Z.
David Ralph [24:41]
Oh, okay. Right. So that’s my beginning.
Dr Grant Brenner [24:46]
Yeah, yeah, maybe so I’m not sure if it’s landed there. But I think that’s where it’s landing is on like generation alpha.
David Ralph [24:51]
Now, with the kids moving forward. Are you gonna be crazy because I think they’re gonna be crazy. They’ve got too much going into their brains. all the time, they’ve got too much sort of connectivity. They don’t separate themselves. My daughter is always tired because she goes to bed late because she’s secretly on her phone, and you can’t stop him. Because that’s what life is like now, you know, but I think it’s gonna make the world more crazy. Or maybe I’m just getting old and miserable.
Dr Grant Brenner [25:19]
Well, in a way, I think that’s true. Because connection, right? Create creates a situation when you’re when you’re heavily interconnected. There’s all these ideas. There’s all this stuff coming at you. And how do you make sense of it? People talk about like ADHD, like attention deficit. And we are just constantly distracted, but also just overloaded with information. And also cultural information. Right? You know, before this technology, yeah, you would know about other cultures, you might see stuff on the news, you might read a book, you might take an anthropology class. But now it’s like right there in your face right in front of you all around the world. And how do you make sense of that? Even from like your social intelligence? And how do you imagine what the world is going to be like? And right now we’re facing, you know, wars and kind of culture wars within countries, as well as you know, these large global clashes between nation states, and it is it is crazy. There’s a book called The crazy ape that was written in the 60s or 70s by a Nobel Laureate, Albert cn Yorkie, the crazy ape. And he says, you know, we face this world. And this was before the internet. We face the world with our caveman brain. Yeah, which doesn’t really know how to make sense of it. People who watched Saturday Night Live might remember the unfrozen caveman lawyer skit, and the guy would be like, in a court of law and in a suit, but you know, he was like, in caveman makeup. And he would be like, I’m just a caveman. I don’t understand your laws. I’m frightened by buses and lorries, you know. So some part of our brain is just like, I don’t know what the heck to make of this world. I was designed to be in a community of no more than 50 people.
David Ralph [27:10]
Now, yeah, and now we’re in a community of 1000s. Millions, yeah, millions. And we’re instantly connected across the globe. So we’ve always going on, I’m grappling to see how you can really drill down to make your crazy work for you. When the whole world is going crazy. How do you make your crazy work and forget the other crazy?
Dr Grant Brenner [27:36]
Yeah, I think that’s a great question. And in a basic way, I think it comes down to your relationship with yourself and the core people around you. So it’s, it’s really enriching to have a community of 1000s of people. But if you don’t have a centre, then that can quote unquote, drive you crazy. So I think, you know, in our work, we really talk about self relationship. And the third book, making your crazy work for you, is about one’s relationship with oneself. And starting with an open, compassionate, curious desire to learn about oneself. And with the idea that there’s one person who you’re going to be companions with your whole life. And that’s you from cradle to grave. And you want to be you know, something like your own best friend, and surround yourself by people who are going to support you, and you’ll support them. And then I think that creates, you know, a place from which you can be be able to deal with the world best by having your own community and your own solid sense of self,
David Ralph [28:44]
and how big or how small is a good community, because I see these people online, and they have communities of 1000s and stuff. And they never speak to any of them. And they just post up and they say, That’s my community. And then I see other people that have just like three best friends, and I’ve had the same friends since they were like, five, and that’s all they need in their life. I don’t need any more. So is there no right or wrong answer? Is there a sweet spot?
Dr Grant Brenner [29:14]
I think there’s a few right answers. And there’s a lot of wrong answers. It depends a lot on what you need, socially, individually. So some people just having having those core friends is really important. And there’s different kinds of friends. I think the problem comes when people try to replace the need for the core relationships with many, many, many superficial relationships. Because what I see happen is that that works for a while, but when life actually gets more difficult, then what happens is people are like, you know, none of my friends are showing up for me, or they’re they you know, the expression you find out who your friends really are. But if you have those core relationships, and people don’t usually need a lot of them, and what the research shows in terms of social support, is that people Don’t need really to perceive that they have supportive friends, that that really drives resilience. But I think the problem is when people try to substitute like fast food for a nutritious meal,
David Ralph [30:13]
because I don’t think people really have close friends anymore. You know, I know we say best friends, but I always say, you know, if I phoned up at three o’clock in the morning, would they get out of bed and stuff? And I think the majority of people certainly that I know, are quite happy to just say that they’re good friends. And you can test this by when when you’re in a group of people go to them. Yeah, I’ve got no friends that care, and they will go I care. I care. But they want to say the words, but they don’t actually want to put the actions in. I don’t think there’s many people out there that will really support you.
Dr Grant Brenner [30:53]
That’s, that’s a sad thought. And I wonder, I wonder how true it is. But I think Tony,
David Ralph [31:00]
true life gets Tony to Dr. Grande. That is my podcast. So I’m saying it’s totally true, don’t you think?
Dr Grant Brenner [31:07]
I think that is a shift that’s happening. And I think it’s a fear a lot of people have, and I have younger kids too. And they really want close friends. But there is a feeling that people may not really show up for you. And I hope that it’s doesn’t end up being true, because I think if it does end up being true, then where will people turn for? For what they need? You know, maybe it’ll be like an artificial friend, you know, like an AI chatbot that meets that need.
David Ralph [31:37]
Now that’s terrible. idea, isn’t it? Having? Well, not going on? Surely.
Dr Grant Brenner [31:44]
But you but you can you can buy stuff like that now and subscribe to it. I’m sure you’ve you must have seen some of those ads, right? For for these kinds of artificial friends. And, you know, it’s a scary thought, I hope that people will recognise how important that relationships really are, you know, I hope that the pendulum will kind of swing back, because that’s what you see sometimes happening culturally, like people move in one direction. And then they’re like, oh, that didn’t work, we better really build solid relationships. And that’s what I would advocate for is really, the importance of good solid relationships. You know, all it’s, it’s like a need that people have as much as food, water and air is relationship. And without that I think you’re right people will, will kind of be will be hurting, you know, and not crazy in the good way.
David Ralph [32:34]
So why did because I went to see Back to the Future, the musical last night in London with my wife. And she was big at pointing out people that had turned up on their own. And she said, Oh, here’s another person on their own. I’ve got Yeah, all right, fair enough. And you know what, you come to the theatre on your own? I said, Yeah, no problem at all? Oh, I wouldn’t. And we had this little discussion about how men are very good at letting relationships just slip where women have to sort of nurture them. And I was saying, Well, if you’re nurturing them all the time, they’re not good relationships. It’s the ones that you haven’t seen between two years, you’re walking through, bang, it’s back, as it always was. What’s your point? Disgust? Dr. Graham,
Dr Grant Brenner [33:16]
I think there’s a rising movement for people for singlehood. And you see this with particularly think women who are can’t, you know, tired of dating men. And so they’re, they’re like, Okay, I’m going to be self sufficient and be single and enjoy myself. It’s a little bit like couples who choose not to have kids like we’re going to live for ourselves. And you know, birth rates are falling, and all that kind of thing. But I think it used to be very much more stigmatised to go eat alone or go to the theatre alone, there’s a lot less stigma around it. And I think that’s overall a good thing. Because it’s not cool. If you don’t have a bunch of friends to think that there’s something wrong with you, right? Not everyone is going to be you know, like the popular kid.
David Ralph [33:58]
But that’s quite good in if people think there’s something wrong with you, and you know, that you’re actually living life on your terms. I would quite like exactly to have that kind of crazy. But people are sort of looking at me going he’s a lunatic, but actually, I think, no, I’m not the lunatic. I’m the one who knows exactly what I’m doing. But I’m just doing it on a different lane to everybody else.
Dr Grant Brenner [34:20]
Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head. And I think that’s, that’s exactly right. Because it’s like you want to be yourself. And people are much more expressive than they used to be. You know, there’s very strong forces to conform, but there’s a lot more room to kind of be yourself to be artistic to march to the beat of your own drummer. And if you can feel secure, being yourself, even if it’s like, you know, maybe a little bit eccentric sometimes. That’s amazing, right? Then then you can really live your life fully, and you can really enjoy yourself. I think the goal is to like really like being with yourself rather Other than feeling like lonely, you can really enjoy solitude. So we’re just be crazy around other people and be like, I’m
David Ralph [35:07]
cool with it. Yes, I’m making your crazy work for you, I think we’ve so hit the nail on the head is actually knowing your own type of crazy and being open with that.
Dr Grant Brenner [35:18]
And really loving it write really enjoying yourself. And I think a lot of people might say, Oh, that that sounds narcissistic in a bad way. But this is like healthy narcissism. Like, I know who I am. And I really like who I am. And I can, I can really enjoy myself, whether I’m alone or with other people. And when I’m with other people, I don’t feel like too embarrassed. And even if I feel embarrassed, that’s okay. Right? You know, we’re all we’re all crazy around here. I used to having a good time,
David Ralph [35:48]
I used to struggle with being the person that I thought people would want to see. So I used to put on different hats. And it took me a long time, if I went to one of our social dues that my, my wife had arranged, I’d be that person. And if I went into somewhere else, I’d be that person. And then I thought to myself, no, that’s not right, I’ve got to just be the same person over time. And now I’m into the No, I’m going to be a different person every time, just just you know, because it amuses me. And I will do that I have many different hats. And I will play those were those different hats at different times. And I don’t just like it, I love it. I love the fact that I can just one of the things my daughter has a dance goal. And we have to go to see her shows and stuff. And when I go there, I play the role of Shadow Man. And what that is, is I’m one of the parents that slides in, sees the show and slides out without anybody knowing that I’m there. And her parents will say, Well, why does it need join up? Why does it need join in with us, we’re all sitting here together. And my daughter said, he’s here to see me. He’s not here to see anybody else. And that’s my Shadow Man. And so yeah, I have multiple personalities now. And it fills me with energy, because it’s almost playful every time I think, Oh, am I gonna beat it on me?
Dr Grant Brenner [37:11]
Yeah, absolutely. That’s absolutely right. That’s one of the things we go into detail in the book, because there’s some people who are like, very diverse and have lots of sides of their personalities. And I think there are other people who are naturally very consistent, and then everyone in between. And if you’re someone who’s got a lot of different hats, you can wear and like a lot of performers are like that, right? We’re good at putting on different personalities, saying I love that your daughter feels that you’re there for her. Right? And that you feel playful about it. That’s, that’s exactly what we’re aiming for, is for people to have, like a core. And then like a base from which they can explore.
David Ralph [37:50]
Yeah, cuz I’ll tell you what, I’ve sat through hours of watching other people’s kids dance on stage, just just for the two minutes of my daughter, you know, and I think yeah, I think I must love to put myself through this. So with the listeners out there, are we now saying that just be yourself. Just don’t, don’t try to play a game. Just, if you’re having a bad day, have a bad day, if you’re having a good day, have a good day, just just totally don’t put any pressure on yourself to be other than the emotions that you’re feeling about time.
Dr Grant Brenner [38:24]
I think that’s part of it, I think the that’s within a larger message of take good care of yourself. So if on a particular day being yourself works, right, that’s fine. And if you need to take time off, that’s fine. On the other hand, you also have to think about the big picture and make sure you know, it’s a relatively wise decision. So I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t overplay the beat yourself, but it’s a definitely a foundational piece.
David Ralph [38:53]
Now, you’re a psychologist, and I’m always and obviously, you know, you know these things. So do you know you’re crazy? Or oh, can you not see it in yourself? Do you have a blind spot for yourself? Do you? Do you actually have to have another professional to say, Dr. Grant, do you realise you’re doing this?
Dr Grant Brenner [39:11]
Well, aside from all the therapy I’ve had, you know, I found that challenging myself in life and getting feedback from other people is the best way to see yourself. And I’m sure I still have blind spots. But you know, being married, dealing with things in the marriage, starting a business which I started a business and sold it, challenging myself to write and creative endeavours. I have gotten into photography a great deal. I used to be a painter and hope to get back to it. I think you get to know yourself through living in the world, but you also getting direct feedback. The other thing is groups of people can give you better feedback on average in some ways than an individual therapist, because an individual therapist can help a lot but they’re, they’re just one person. So for example, in group therapy, people We’ll get a lot more diverse feedback. And that really helps with the blind spots too. But it can really be hard to hear sometimes.
David Ralph [40:07]
Well, I think you’re beautifully crazy Dr. Grant, I’m going to save out, I feel I feel, I haven’t quite found your crazy, but it’s got to be in there somewhere.
Dr Grant Brenner [40:17]
I have a wild imagination, I have a very, very playful sense of humour. It’s probably not coming through on the podcast, because we’re talking about the book and stuff. But I love to walk around the city for hours with my camera, and the people in in Manhattan in the neighbourhood where I live, and the types of scenes. You know, I think, for me, that’s one way that it comes out. And I can be really really freewheeling but like you said, we all have different hats we wear, and I’m not going to be super freewheeling in a professional capacity.
David Ralph [40:54]
Right? So we went through the aware that we’re moving to the end of the podcast, we went through the the ACES exercise. But what what would be the number one thing for somebody to start the process? Well, without buying books or anything, they’re just sitting at their desk, what would be the number one thing to actually starting to love their own crazy?
Unknown Speaker [41:17]
I think it starts with self compassion is, is looking at yourself and asking, How do I approach myself? And is it in a way that is holding me back? Or constraining me? Or is it in a way which allows me to be open to my own possibilities? Asking that question. We call that discovery? It’s the first step in what we call the dream sequence.
David Ralph [41:43]
And should they write it down it? Should they like ask themselves a question and then answer the question.
Unknown Speaker [41:50]
I think journaling can be really helpful for people because you can see what you’ve written and have a dialogue. And for some people writing it down works better than keeping it in their head. And for some people speaking out loud, even though that may seem a little strange can also be helpful kind of talking to themselves. I also understand that successful entrepreneurs have a habit of talking out loud. Yeah, you need a sounding board. Right. And when people keep it in their head, there’s less of a sounding board and more of you know, spinning.
David Ralph [42:17]
Yeah, I think journaling is a great thing. I don’t personally do it. But I’ve spoken to enough people now to know but it’s a great thing.
Unknown Speaker [42:26]
And it sounds like podcasting may do it for you too.
David Ralph [42:29]
Well, absolutely. I was gonna say I think it’s like a vocalise journaling. As I’m saying some things, it’s almost, I’ve been in therapy for about 3000 episodes, give or take, you know, and I say things, and I actually think God, I didn’t even think about where did that come from. And a few years back, I used to almost go into a slight depression, because I was having one conversation and realised I’d add issues. And then I have another one. And at the end of the day, I was thinking, Oh, my God, you know, which one do I work on first, but now, because you Dr. Grant, I’m just gonna say, just let it go. You’re crazy. Yeah, crazy. And it’s fine. Cool, right? Well, this is the end of the episode. And this is the part that we called a sermon on the mic, when you get a chance to go back and speak to the younger, Dr. Grant, probably before they were actually a doctor. And if you could go back and share some words of wisdom to them. What would you be? Well, we’re going to find out because I’m going to play the music. And this is the Sermon on the mic.
Unknown Speaker [43:40]
Here we go with the best bit of the show, sir man on the mind, the sermon on.
Unknown Speaker [44:01]
If I could go back and talk to myself, it would probably be in high school or college. And the main thing is, I would, I would tell myself, hey, you know, people really like you. There’s a lot of people who really liked you. And you have, you know, a sense that you’re not likeable. But actually, most people like you. And so really hold on to that. And when you look in the mirror, you know, you can like yourself as well. And this is also something that relates to self compassion, to be kind to oneself rather than critical. On the other hand, I would also say, hey, you know, don’t give yourself a hard time for sometimes giving yourself a hard time.
David Ralph [44:42]
Oh, that was she’ll say that one again, that we go through that one. What’s that last one?
Unknown Speaker [44:49]
When you’re feeling self critical, as a lot of us do, I would say to myself, it’s okay. Sometimes we’re self critical. So don’t give yourself a hard time. For giving yourself a hard time. So the vicious cycle people get caught in is they try to be kind to themselves or compassionate, and it doesn’t work. And they end up being critic criticising of themselves. And then they get they start beating themselves up for not being able to be self compassionate. What I’m saying is kind of don’t, don’t do that. Take a pause, and be kind.
David Ralph [45:24]
Yeah, just just breathe and say it’s okay. You’re okay is, you know, we’re all screw ups. We’re all crazy people. But we’re all right. I think I think that’s a nice message to finish with. So for all the audience, so what’s the number one best way that they can connect with you?
Unknown Speaker [45:42]
Well, you can find me on Twitter, Instagram at Grant H. Brenner, MD. You know, LinkedIn and Facebook. If you search me out on the internet, there’s not many people with my name. I’ve got a blog on psychology today called expiry meditations with a capital M. and my website is Grant H. BRENNER md.com.
David Ralph [46:03]
We’re have over links in the show notes. Dr. Grant, thank you so much for spending time with us today, joining up those dots. And please come back again, when you’ve got more dots to join up. Because I do believe that by joining up those dots and connecting our pasts is always the best way to build our futures. Dr. Grant, thank you so much. Pleasure. Thank you, David. So we’ve got to love ourselves, which is kind of obvious, isn’t it, but it’s very difficult to do. We’ve got to accept that, you know, we’re screw ups and we have craziness. But we can take that crazy and make it work for us. And you can go over to Amazon and search for Dr. Grant’s book, if you’re interested in that. Or you can just do some of the exercises that we posed. And if anybody’s got any further information they need from back then let us know join up dots@gmail.com The normal way and we’d be happy to provide whatever we can to help you but um, yeah, just be nice to yourself. Give yourself a hug. Go easy on yourself. And just know we’re all a bit crazy. Until next time, we’ll see you again. Cheers. See ya. Bye bye.
Outro [47:09]
That’s the end of Join Up Dots. You’ve heard the conversation. Now it’s time for you to start taking massive action. Create your future create July is he only you live he will be back again real soon. Join Up Dots during the gods Join Up Dots. Gods Jolina Join Up Dots
