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Rick Chapman Joins Us On The Steve Jobs Inspired Join Up Dots Podcast
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Introducing Rick Chapman
Rick Chapman is our guest today, on the Steve Jobs inspired Join Up Dots free podcast interview.
He is a man who was introduced to the show by a previous guest and personal friend of mine Laura Steward.
She said to me “David, why the hell have I not introduced you to this amazing guest before?”
And I said “I dont know Laura, only you know the answer to that!”
Well, introduce us she did, and aren’t I glad that he is now here, as he is a man who is doing things in a very different way to many people that I have spoken to on the show.
He has worked in the high technology and software industries since 1978 as a programmer, salesman, field sales engineer and marketer and has joined up many dots that has now allowed him to start living a life full of passion.
How The Dots Joined Up For Rick
He is the author of Selling Steve Jobs’ Liver?” which is a bizarre title for a book, but seems a perfect one for Join Up Dots once you start reading it.
And he is also the author of “In Search of Stupidity: Over 20 Years of High-Tech Marketing Disasters,” too.
But that is just one side of how he also juggles his time and passions, as away from the typewriter he is also the editor of Softletter, and happens to also be the COO of a new SaaS startup too.
So has writing about startups and entrepreneurial legends given him the secret steps that guarantee success?
And does he see an explosion of entrepreneurs coming our way due to the success of shows like this, where quite frankly they should stay as far away as they can from being the next startup?
Well let’s find out as we bring onto the show to start joining up dots with the one and only Mr Rick Chapman.
Show Highlights
During the show we discussed such weighty topics with Rick Chapman such as:
Why the personality of Steve Jobs is often over looked by the fanboys of the world, where we should all take a broader view of his strengths and talent (and of course flaws).
Why so many startups fail in the first five years, and why we should all try our best to study the failures of others as much as we can.
How Steve Jobs made a decision to change his outlook on life, which had such a dramatic change in both the futures of Apple and himself
and lastly….
How the idea for the book “Selling Steve Jobs Liver” was formed over a meal with friends and why this idea just had to be brought to the world.
Rick Chapman Books
How To Connect With Rick Chapman
Return To The Top Of Rick Chapman
If you enjoyed this episode with Rick Chapman why not check out other inspirational chat with Matthew Pollard, Dana Malstaff, Caroline Casey and the amazing Joe Kashurba
You can also check our extensive podcast archive by clicking here – enjoy
Full Transcription Of Rick Chapman Interview
Intro [0:10]
When we’re young, we have an amazing positive outlook about how great life is going to be. But somewhere along the line we forget to dream and end up settling. Join Up Dots features amazing people who refuse to give up and chose to go after their dreams. This is your blueprint for greatness. So here’s your host live from the back of his garden in the UK. David Ralph.
David Ralph [0:35]
Yes, hello there, everybody. Hello there and welcome to an episode of Join Up Dots with my most favourite guest of all time. He has been on the show three times we haven’t managed to record a single word but he’s here today. He’s here. And we have fiddled with things he’s been over these knobs I’ve fiddled with my sliders is a slider and knobs kind of thing. But I’ve been we’re going to do it. I think we’re going to record and these are man He was introduced to the show by a previous guest and personal friend of mine, Laura Stewart. And she said to me, David, want to head up I know introduced you to this amazing guest, but Bob and I said, I don’t know Lola only, you know, the answer to that will introduce us she did. And I’m glad that he’s now here as he is a man who is doing things in a very different way to many people that I’ve spoken to on the show before. He’s worked in the high technology and software industries since 1978. As a programmer, salesman, Field Sales Engineer and marketer, and has joined up many dots that has now allowed him to start living a life by the passion is the author of selling Steve Jobs liver, which is a bizarre title report, but seems the perfect one for Join Up Dots once you start reading it. And he’s also the author of in search of stupidity over 20 years of high tech marketing disasters too. But that’s just one side of how he also juggles his time and passions as a way from the typewriter. He’s also the editor of SOP letter and happens to also be the CFO of a new si es startup to not really sure What I mean? So has he been writing about startups and entrepreneurial Legends? Has it given him the secret steps that guarantee success? And does he see an explosion of entrepreneurs coming our way due to the success of shows like this, where quite frankly, they should stay as far as a way as they can from being the next startup? Well, let’s find out as we bring them to the show to start Join Up Dots with the one and only Mr. Rick Chapman. Good morning, Mr. Chapman. How are you sir?
Rick Chapman [2:27]
Good morning, David. How are you? What and what else? slam bang intro.
David Ralph [2:31]
Right. You deserve it down here. You’ve been with me every Thursday for about the last six months. It feels like trying to get trying to get this on the road. Do you think do you feel competent? Do you feel that we’re actually going to do Do you know, an Emmy Award winning show?
Rick Chapman [2:47]
I firmly believe that 18th time is the charm. Okay.
David Ralph [2:50]
I think so. That’s what I always say to the wife. I never get close to 18 times but I try my best. I try my best but we’ve got so much to talk about. So I’m going to Can’t straight to your book because you, you connected with me through Laura. And she said, This guy has written this book, and I’ll be honest with you, I’ve got a complaint about your book straight off the bat. I, when I started reading it, I actually thought, oh my god, this is a proper book, I get sent books all the time, and I kind of just flick through them, and I get a flavour for it. You’ve got to read this. This is a proper story, isn’t it? I read the first two chapters. And I thought to myself, this is something that I’ve gotten Nestle down in bed with every single night to get the flavour of it. So tell us, why did you write a kind of business book but in a in a fictional way, because it’s a totally different spin?
Rick Chapman [3:40]
Well, I’ve been in high tech for a long time. As you mentioned, I’m involved in my own startup. I’ve been writing about startups, I’ve worked for startups. And when I told the story, I did try to come up with an environment and a feel to the book that made it feel as if this could actually be happening, even though the premise as you know, is completely cracked. Although I was, you know, I’ve been I’ve been reading so much about the cult of the startup and in the United States, especially the startup is the young gods of technology, everyone’s going on about entrepreneurial ship and innovating, and, you know, strategizing, and I just have, I have to have a little fun with that, too. I am the author of in search of stupidity. So I’m also a student of failure. And I sort of wanted to combine all that,
David Ralph [4:30]
but you will pop it all through as well. This is a proper book, as I was saying, this is a story this is one about a couple of galleys. And what why why was he called Steve Jobs liver selling Steve Jobs, liver First of all, because that is possibly one of the most bizarre titles I’ve ever heard.
Rick Chapman [4:46]
Well, let me give you the background of the book and the the person who inspired the creation of the book is himself an entrepreneur, though not maybe the type of entrepreneur we all want to be. But, you know, Steve Jobs passed away in 2011. was a lot of you know, carrying on the death of Steve Jobs he was referred to in cartoons and some articles. It’s like rice like figure and all the rest of it and I was a little put off by some of it. I thought it was a bit much Steve Jobs as a businessman especially from 2001 to 2011 is an incredible story as a human being he could take relief. So I was sitting with a friend in a restaurant and I was listening to all the carrying on you know, flames flickering on iPods and iPads and phones. And I said you know, the real I said the real business opportunity here is to get hold of Steve Jobs liver which was taken removed from his body in 2009 as part of his a cancer treatment. Take get hold of it, cut it up into little chunks, put it in Lucite crystals and sell it with a certificate as a as a proof that you own a piece of the true Steve. So You know, my friend and I were laughed a little bit at the idea. And then in October of 2014, I was reading an article about a guy by the name of Seth Bannon, my man Seth, like these native New Yorker, and he was a smokin hot entrepreneur back then. And he’d been at Y Combinator when he’d been like the top 30, you know, young executive, and he was in Forbes. And he create a product called Amicus, and Amicus was a an app that allowed you to assist raising funds for nonprofits and manage the process of bringing in donations. So, product seems to be doing well company’s doing well, one day he walks in and fires everyone. And it turns out that the reason he had to fire everyone is he ran out of cash. And the reason they ran out of cash was, well, Seth had had he was in New York Corporation in the state of New York, you have to pay withholding and employment taxes, and he had used an online system. This is what he told everyone that, well, you could put in the amount of money you owed in one part of the website, but then there was a submit tax button on another part. And for three years, he didn’t figure out he, he missed that button. So, one day they wake up and go, Oh my God, we owe three years of back taxes. I ended up having no money in the bank. Also, Seth had this habit of telling people that he had dropped out of Harvard the way that you know, Mark Zuckerberg dropped out and Bill Gates dropped out. Only it turns out that Seth had dropped out of Harvard’s continuing School of adult education, which is not the same thing as dropping out of Harvard, Harvard. And also, Seth was just obsessed with Mark Zuckerberg, he, he told everyone that he rented the same hacker house that Zuckerberg uses in the movie, The Social Network. He even set up his workstation in where he thought Zuckerberg had sat in the house and then well In one day, it says, Oh, that’s it. We’re out of money. And I was reading this just laughing my head off. And I said to myself, this is the type of guy who sells Steve Jobs, liver. That’s literally how it happened. And I stopped and I said, selling Steve Jobs, liver. There’s a story here and I sat down and wrote it. And
David Ralph [8:18]
we surprised how you wrote it. Because had you dabbled in creative writing before? Was this the first time you ever tried?
Rick Chapman [8:25]
No, this is the second time I’m the author of two novels. The first novel is called ruleset, a novel of a quantum future. It’s a fusion of AI, quantum computing, which I’m fascinated by. and Japanese manga, which I’m also, which I’m also a fan of, so I kind of mishmash them together and created a novel that takes place in the year 2087. And I don’t want to, you know, go into too great depth, but it allowed me to have a lot of fun with and also extrapolate on trends that I see in technology and push them out to the future. Try to have some fun and see what would happen. You can read more about the book on triple w rule our ul e hyphen. That’s because rule set the entire you know word was taken. I wasn’t gonna pay like $3,000 for the domain so hyphen, rule, hyphen set calm.
David Ralph [9:16]
No absolutely don’t pay the way you ain’t got the money just just use what needs to be there. Now what interested me we’ve you and I’ve been seeing it so much. So I want to sort of delve more into Mr. jobs because I know you’ve got some interesting stories about him is the fact that you said you know, the person is almost the gotten against a business success. Now we see it time and time again, motivational quotes come through now I’m a big advocate of it and I love the kind of things he says I don’t own a thing a single Apple device never had done, but the kind of words of wisdom that come out of him. You can almost forget the the personal issues, can’t you you can forget what the person was that it masks many things.
Rick Chapman [9:59]
It does But and, and one of the things about a study of Steve Jobs his life that makes it so fascinating is how, despite his charisma and fame, and by the way, you should realise that before 2001 Steve Jobs was not quite what we think of Steve Jobs today. He misfired time and time again. And even when he made his comeback, his comeback had very little to do in a sense with what he was originally associated with computers were Steve Jobs, you know, made he finally made his mark and when his talent set, and the industry finally mesh together was 2001. And then he had a decade of probably the most incredible performance ever turned in by a senior business executive in any industry, nevermind high tech, when he took over apple in 2000. Sorry, in 1997, after overthrowing Gil Amelio. The company was about 8 billion and shrank for the first several years of his You know, reinvigorated leadership to 5 billion. And then in 2001, they introduced the iPod by the time he was done. And even though he passed away in 2011, I gave him credit for 2013 and 2012, he taken that company from about 5 billion to about 170 billion. That’s amazing.
David Ralph [11:21]
Well, it is, isn’t it? And I know they’re sort of struggling to replicate that. And I was having a conversation in a Facebook forum by a guy who was saying, you know, there’s no Wow, coming out of Apple anymore. It’s all kind of, it’s already been done before. And I said, You know, I can understand what you’re saying, but was he at the right time to create something new? Because I can actually see nowadays what you could create as something life changing, that isn’t just an improvement of what we’ve already got. And he was just at that moment where technology kind of matched up with what the audience’s wanting. Do you reckon?
Rick Chapman [11:58]
I’m going to disagree with you a little bit. Jobs was not an innovator in the conventional sense. He was not a programmer. He was not a designer. He was not an engineer. And the devices that he he carried to greatness weren’t new. A company called I think it’s Sagan Eiger was the first developer of what we’d call the the, the portable music player mp3 player. The Apple didn’t come up with that idea. The smartphone was had been around for several years blackberry companies such as Samsung, with its blackjack, which I own, which at the time was regarded as one of the coolest smartphones of all about three months after the apple after the iPhone comes out. That’s junk. He you know, his initial successes Well, sort of successes with the Macintosh, all built on other companies and other people’s ideas. Jobs had a unique talent, which is often seen in high tech hasn’t gotten the credit it deserves. Now you have to ask me what talent was that?
David Ralph [13:03]
What was that Mr. Chapman?
Rick Chapman [13:06]
Jobs was the greatest critic High Tech has ever seen. And it’s not a skill that’s often associated with business greatness. But in his case, it was he had the ability and talent to look at other devices, other people’s ideas, and critique the hell out of him until you ended up with something much better, much more functional, much more attractive than the original designers had been able to conceive of.
David Ralph [13:33]
Yeah, but it was the innovation vote. I know you say he wasn’t an innovator. That’s innovation of sorts, isn’t it?
Rick Chapman [13:39]
It certainly is. But it’s a unique form of innovation that not many people possess, or have ever possessed in the industry.
David Ralph [13:46]
Because there is that story of him going into I think it was IBM, and seeing a man playing around with a device that is a mouse and literally running out of the the meeting to sort of recreate this thing because he could sell We see that hang on this was the way forward. And I think that is, you know, that is where he seen years later that it was a case of knowing that there was a demand before the demand was actually shown to him somehow.
Rick Chapman [14:14]
Well, it goes beyond even more than that, by the way that it was at Xerox at the Alto, at the park laboratories in Palo Alto, where he first saw the mice, the mouse and you know, the graphic interface in action. And he promptly realised, even though he realised much more than the original designers of the system where it could go, and of course, Bill Gates realised it too, as well as other people. And they all promptly ripped off Xerox, which was never able to make a dime out of all of your innovative work. And they were the true you might call the Uber innovators of modern technologies. We use it today. But Jobs was was able to see the future back then. But he also had an injury systems on trying to fit what was then the computer industry into what became a consumer electronics industry. And he kept failing he failed with the original Mac, which he conceived of as a locked down. appliance for the mind. I think he called it as a matter of fact, he wanted to originally name of the bicycle because it was a bicycle for the mind. And for the first 20 years of Apple’s existence, Apple was a computer company. And it reached its initial successes and big sales, not as a consumer electronics company when jobs took over the company, again in 1997. It was still a computer company, and it remained one until 2001 and the iPod right now as of today, you know, the Macintosh at 10s of accounts for about 10% of apples revenue. The rest of it comes from what we would call consumer electronics, you know, phones
pads
accessories, watches, their consumer electronics company and jobs his skills meshed perfectly with consumer electronics. They weren’t that good a fit for a computing industry.
David Ralph [16:12]
So said what was the last thing that you think that Apple produced that was an absolute well,
Rick Chapman [16:19]
Jobs had three huge hits the iPod, which, you know, interestingly enough, has been subsumed by his biggest hit of all time, in which he completely started to reshape the way we think of computing the iPhone, and iTunes. And then of course, his last big hit, although it hasn’t proved to be is as big and as sustainable a hit was the iPad. Okay.
David Ralph [16:45]
Now with the iPads. I was reading something the other day that he was talking about that back in 1984, but he had a vision of almost like a slate that people carried around with him. And I thought to myself, you know that that is that is visionary. That’s innovative. That’s everything all put into one, isn’t it?
Rick Chapman [17:03]
Yes. But again, he was not the consumer of that concept that came out of Xerox and I think back then it was called the Dynabook, okay. And john Sculley after he kicks jobs out, attempted to build that early device, the Newton, which everyone had a lot of fun with, and was became infamous in the industry. And one of the reasons it was such a poorly operating device was the technology at the time was not able to sustain the early visions of what the device would be. This happens in high tech all the time. And then as a great idea, they rush out to build it. And then it turns out that well it kind of sucks, because the chips aren’t fast enough. You don’t have enough memory that keeps happening again and again.
David Ralph [17:43]
Well, I’m gonna play some words now and then we’re gonna delve back into your own kind of personal story, which is obviously linked to Steve Jobs but so separate as well. This is Jim Carrey.
Jim Carrey [17:54]
My father could have been a great comedian, but he didn’t believe that that was possible for him. And so he made a concerted of choice. Instead, he got a safe job as an accountant. And when I was 12 years old, he was let go from that safe job. And our family had to do whatever we could to survive. I learned many great lessons from my father, not the least of which was that you can fail at what you don’t want. So you might as well take a chance on doing what
David Ralph [18:19]
you love. Now, obviously, we’ve been talking about old jobs z, so I’ll buy you words that you think would apply to him.
Rick Chapman [18:30]
Yeah, I mean, one of the things that jobs is an example of persistence and doing things that you love to do, and he all you have to give him credit, he never stopped doing this and he kept coming back at the technology industry and, and, you know, kind of kind of succeeded at Apple, even though the initial Macintosh was a sales flop and it was resale swap in large regard because he made better decisions about certain aspects of how the system should be designed. Nonetheless, you know, when guys like john Louis gosei, got the hold of the Macintosh and opened it up the way the computer industry expected a computer to be opened up, it took off and it was very successful. He then went off and formed Next. Next was not a successful company, though, in the end, he succeeded with it in a way that you could not have guessed the time that the company was founded. Then, of course, you know, his first big hit after leaving Apple was not in computing, but in entertainment in the entertainment business, he made a bet on Pixar, and that that finally paid off with Toy Story. But Steve Jobs his first big success, and that made him his first billion was as a producer of, you know, Disney quality 3d cartoons and animated movies. So that’s, you know, he came at it, we came at it from a completely different angle.
David Ralph [19:55]
But But do you think is that the right angle because I believe and it’s sent me a long time to really grasp this fact. Because you you hearing it’s so difficult to actually sort of bring into your own life. But if you find a way of following your passions, you never work again and the money will naturally come. Now for a long time you just plough into your passions and nothing happens, but when it does, it sort of happens big time. Do you think that is the real way of, or CTP sort of pragmatic way of how to build success?
Rick Chapman [20:26]
You know, there have been people who’ve been very pragmatic and they’ve been very successful. Bill Gates is a classic example of that. Jobs was very derisively time to time. But Bill Gates has a taste of his vision of the future. But by Doc vikash, Bill Gates is worth an awful lot of money, you can do whatever he wants. And his vision of success was much more pragmatic, though. He He loved computing. I mean, this this guy wrote the first industry standard basic. went into the business as a you know, as a kid, you know, a young teenager. Nature, but he was always a much more pragmatic person than jobs and was very successful. You can say the same thing to people like Larry Ellison, there have been plenty of pragmatic successes. jobs, jobs, look for more than success, jobs, jobs, thought of himself as a great man. And he, he pursued not just business success, but greatness. And in the end, he achieved it.
David Ralph [21:24]
Like it comes from, I suppose, you know, they always called him the billion dollar hippie. But there was
Unknown Speaker [21:30]
a lot of use out of that though.
David Ralph [21:31]
Yeah, there is there’s a lot of truth all the way through his life. He was always slightly, you know, he wasn’t normal. Was he really?
Rick Chapman [21:39]
No, he was, he was the son of a gun. And the diets you know, all the strange diets and the, the off the off beat approach to life and sometimes this is his cruelty and, and, and unpleasant behaviour all sort of sprang from the same Well, that’s something people have to think about. I mean, There have been I read an article in wired a couple several years ago that says, you really want to be like Steve Jobs. The upside greatness worldwide fame. The downside? Well, he was a jerk. So yeah, there’s always two sides to that point sometimes.
David Ralph [22:16]
And so where did where do you lie in your sort of? Are you pragmatic? Are you pressing or how have you built your career?
Rick Chapman [22:25]
My career has been dedicated towards, I’m not sure towards greatness, but towards things I’m passionate about. And I have to tell you a few years ago, I, I’d always been a huge reader, I’d always wanted to write I’d always wanted to write a sci fi novel. And one day I just said, I am not going to go to my grave until I have taken a shot at this. And I did I just put everything to one side and wrote a sci fi novel and let me tell you, for all you people out there who want to be great, are rich. Don’t think you’re going to get great or rich writing novels. You’re not going that’s probably They’re not going to happen. You might make a living. But, you know, you most of you are not going to be Isaac Asimov or Robert Heinlein. So, you know, but that’s that was something that I had to do. And after I’d written my first novel, I said, Okay, I have a better idea of what I need to do, why not take my ability to write and I can write, and combine that with my knowledge of high technology and what’s going on to the startup scene. And since I’m planning to start my own startup, have some fun here, and that’s what I did. Steve Jobs, liver was a labour of love. And also just, I thought it was such a funny concept. I had to do it.
David Ralph [23:39]
So what was starting up your business? Was it fun? Or was it just slog like most people experience?
Rick Chapman [23:47]
Well, I’ve done I’ve had several careers, several businesses, and some of them were a lot of fun. I mean, one of the most fun jobs I’ve ever had was I was the VP of Marketing at a startup that was building Virtual Reality gaming controllers? Well, you don’t have to get a job that that’s much cooler than that. And unfortunately, the company was primarily funded by two guys who ended up going to prison in the thousands, Dennis Kozlovsky and Mark Swartz. And they were in it to basically take advantage of the.com boom. So, you know, that was a startup that where I love the job. I love the company. I love the products, but it failed. I was involved in a much more prosaic startup, which was much more successful. I had to be pragmatic at that point of the startup I’m involved in now is it’s my idea. I I’ve actually patented it. And do I love doing it? Yeah, I always wanted to start a startup and hopefully this one will be a big success. So I’ve been sort of pursuing two dreams, one of being a successful writer, and one of being a successful startup entrepreneur
David Ralph [24:55]
now as a truth that most startups will fail in the first five years. Any news? Yeah. Can you see the issues? Oh, you can still make the same issues continue to stop that by having the knowledge of what other people have done.
Rick Chapman [25:09]
Yeah, yes, you can. I’m the author of the book, as you mentioned, in search of stupidity, over 20 years of high tech marketing disaster. And the reason I wrote that book is, you know, I’ve been in the industry for a while I’ve seen companies kept making the same mistake again, and again, again, and I said, This is ridiculous. I mean, if you’re going to make a mistake, make do something new and entertaining and amusing assault don’t keep doing the same freaking thing. So I sat down and wrote a book called search stupidity, analysing all of these mistakes that I made and showing demonstrating what happened, why it happened, and what you could do to avoid it. Now, this doesn’t mean that you can’t go out and do something new and stupid, but at least I’ll do something old and stupid. And one of the pieces of advice I would give your audience is that When you get involved in a start up, study success, but also study failure. You can learn a lot by watching what other companies did walk people, and at least make sure you don’t do that again. And that puts you ahead of the curve,
David Ralph [26:16]
which is the beauty of the Steve Jobs story literally is peaks and troughs, peaks and troughs. And you It’s so clearly defined that he’s big failures. 10 years later became one of these big successes. You just couldn’t see it at a time. It is a beautifully paced story of success and failures. He’s one, isn’t it?
Rick Chapman [26:36]
Yeah, it’s a story. It’s a 40 year saga, really. And it covers both jobs. It’s covered Steve Jobs. It covers Steve Wozniak, let’s not forget him. And when you look at the history of Apple, Apple has really been two companies, one that was created and sort of inspired by Steve Wozniak, the first 20 years of its existence, and then one that the next 20 years became Different company and inspired and driven by Steve Jobs. And you know, even the story of how jobs came back to Apple. It’s a story of persistence, but also of luck. It doesn’t hurt to be lucky in this business.
David Ralph [27:14]
And is was he just naturally lucky? Because he tried so many things, because that’s the thing, isn’t it? You know, people talk about being in the right place at the right time. But you’re only in that place by going there, you know, whether it’s the right time or not, was that the case out of luck was built?
Rick Chapman [27:30]
Yes, he did. There’s an interesting book that I urge your audience to read called on the firing line, my 500 days at Apple. And it was written by Gil Amelio, who was a Job’s predecessor, and it was over thrown by jobs in a boardroom coup. And it’s a fascinating book because it gives you an inside look at how jobs regain control at Apple. And frankly, it’s not a it’s not a terribly pretty story in certain levels, though and the winning jobs throughout Emilio Emilio richly deserved that he was not capable of running Apple commodity level comm technology for him yes apple. No. But you know the reason that he was able to ingratiate himself with Emilio and get the the nose back under the tent was by approaching Emilio after we taken control and making sure that Apple knew that he was out there with a boatload of good technology that could be helpful to the company. And when the right moment came, he was in position to to pitch that technology. And that’s how we get regained control of apple. Though it took luck because you know, there was another person in line to sell, you know, technology that Apple needed at the time. B Corporation owned by john Louis gets a another apple alumnus. And john lewis, you know, was French couldn’t stop themselves from the kind of friendship and annoying and the association and apple and jobs jumped in and took advantage of the opportunity. But there was a you know, it took a screw up by someone else for jobs to eventually regain that chance to take control of apple. And when he did it, he took it he took it to the races, but remember it took him about four or five years before the market shifted before his skill set. And the technology industry you know, matched so perfectly for that 10 year period.
David Ralph [29:25]
Do you know everything you said there I was hanging hanging on every word, but the bit that jumped out of me was he was friends so he couldn’t help but
Rick Chapman [29:37]
I’m probably gonna kill any sales I have Steve Jobs delivered my other stuff in France but
David Ralph [29:41]
absolutely i tunes thrones I’m I’m at the bottom of the towers now. They’re all gonna be turning off in droves. So when when you have Did you ever meet Steve Jobs at all?
Rick Chapman [29:53]
Yes, I did. And but it’s it’s one of these stories. That’s hilarious because again, it’s not what to expect. I met jobs and it was either 1989 or 1990 in Pittsburgh. And the reason that jobs would go to Pittsburgh is because the guys who would develop the next OS came out of Carnegie Mellon. So he would, you know, he’d go there and give, you know, lectures and presentations. And I went to a presentation that he was having at a hotel near the university. And remember, this is this is Steve Jobs after he’s been kicked out of apple. Next is, you know, sort of a marginal company at that point. It wasn’t hard to get into see Steve Jobs speak. But, you know, he was still, you know, a minor superstar. At that point, the room was filled not to overflowing and jobs get stopped on the stage. You know, give us a presentation. And the first word that comes out of his mouth is this airport, Pittsburgh airport. You guys will never have a proper technology industry until you get a proper airport. It’s terrible. It was like we’re all looking one another going. Well, I’m not sure what this has to do with next but we all have to agree Pittsburgh airport is pretty terrible, but okay, Steve, let’s let’s talk about the next box. So he calmed down, but he went on for about 510 minutes about screening Pittsburgh airport. It was a terrifying airport to fly in. He had to come in hard and fast. It was the airport that was built for downdrafts. So the airport itself was a cruddy little Warren of boxes. So he didn’t. Pittsburgh. And actually, I spoke to him afterwards about a company that was consulting with called perk computing, Three Rivers computing. This is, you know, the dawn of time. And they were building workstations that could have been competitive with next. And they were banging on the concept of internet back then. And he and I spoke a little bit about what they were doing what we were doing. And he was perfectly nice, by the way, very, very pleasant, very nice guy. Okay,
David Ralph [31:52]
and was he wasn’t somebody that was not here yet. Yeah. Well, was he really interested in what you had to say when what He’s somebody that focused in on, there could be gold in every conversation.
Rick Chapman [32:07]
No, I don’t think so. I think he wanted to pick my brains find out what we were doing. And then he was done with me. I can’t say I walked away with words of wisdom or the feeling that he and I were good buddies. I don’t think he knew me from Adam moving forward. But that was fine. I had my brush with greatness. Okay.
David Ralph [32:22]
And then what were you aware of it? At the moment? It was, you know, when you look back on it, could you say you couldn’t have said Oh, he was gonna end up lucky as it did?
Rick Chapman [32:32]
No, no, as a matter of fact, again, the Steve Jobs of the pre you know, iPod area era and the Steve Jobs of post iPod are two different almost like he turned into a different person. I mean, taking a company from five to 170 billion will do that for you. But before that, Jobs was regarded as something of a has been okay. Next was regarded as well. It was an interesting looking box, no one’s going to buy it for $10,000. That’s what a next cost. He said he was going to go into the education market and everyone was going well, the education market is great, but you’re not going to get anyone to spend $10,000 on a single unit. You know, the company from the minute at launch never had much in the way of sales in the mid 90s, that kind of derisive book called icon 2.0 icon was written. So Jobs was not regarded in the same way. The hagiography and worship that developed that 10 year period was absent. Okay, he was a different few different time, different person.
David Ralph [33:40]
And so when he walked in again, was it just a gradual process? Or was it a career defining pivot but he made you think
Rick Chapman [33:51]
it was a, it was a career defining pivot for both Apple and for jobs, it put him in the forefront of a company that even though was in deep trouble when he took it over, still had a special position and reputation in the mind of the market. And, you know, it and his skillset, as I said, a desire of wanting to be in consumer electronics and his ability to to critique and build devices that people really loved on top of the existing idea as a concept was unmatched. And that’s what, that’s what really made Steve Jobs Steve Jobs the the moment and his skill set met in 2001. And he never looked back. He
David Ralph [34:38]
I wonder if he knew that he had matched whether he suddenly looked around and could see that he had the answers where before he didn’t, it was his time watching.
Rick Chapman [34:49]
I think he was very well aware of it. And I have some fun with the things that he could have done, but I’m only being semi free. I mean, Tim Cook. I just read an article that compared Tim Cook to Steve Ballmer, and I think that’s an accurate description. Gates was, in his own way, a visionary, a much more pragmatic, more focused visionary in a sense, and not not a consumer electronics guy, but a computing industry guy. Vollmer tip comes over, he’s a business guy, he’s got an MBA, he runs the company basically on Well, okay, we are going to extend existing product lines, we’re going to build out into niches. Same thing with cook. Jobs probably had some other things up his sleeve, but let’s face it, he was a very sick man. And he, he, he passed away, he didn’t have time to execute certain things I think he would have done I think he would have done something better with TV. I think he actually had an idea that I’ve had and that is that. I think he was thinking of a post device future. Okay. And by that I I mean, there’s new technologies coming online, in which even the idea of having, you know, a big clunky device is going to go away. I think that in the future, you’re gonna see thin film devices that can be cut pasted put anywhere. I also think that what we call today, our portable our workspace where we do our computing is going to be cut off from hardware, it’s going to sort of float out in the cloud and be able to be directed to any particular device that you need it to be on it will be immortal and independent of any, any one collection of transistors and micro circuits.
David Ralph [36:42]
Did you think that we can get to a point where because in the United Kingdom just outside Cambridge, I think it is, whether it is a bunch of scientists or the government has set them up. They’re already looking at artificial intelligence basically destroying us like Terminator did. Can you see that is a possibility? Are we on the way to making things so clever that ultimately they turn on us?
Rick Chapman [37:08]
You know, I don’t that’s that’s, that’s a concept that I actually explored in ruleset. I don’t know if you’ve ever seen 2001 A Space Odyssey. But if you haven’t, you really should go watch it because there’s a computer in there called Hal 9000. And 2001 A Space Odyssey was shot 1968 69. And how 9000 is an intelligent sentient computer. And what was fascinating about the computing industry back then was everyone was sure that how 9000 would be operational by 2001. Well, as you know, he didn’t show up. So are we are we close to having sentience, self aware computers? No sign of it, are we building generations of pattern recognition and networkable machines can do certain types of tasks. Yes. And they’re becoming extremely powerful and they’re beginning to supplant, supplying human beings in many jobs. And you wonder if we’re going to see in the next 2025 years of sort of crisis as these machines begin to supplant, you know, people and technologies and businesses where they can think and just do a better job. But whether we’re going to have devices that are smart enough, or even aware enough to turn on us, that’s not at all clear. All the prognostications for itself were sent in computers have not come to pass. Did you ever watch Star Trek? I
David Ralph [38:43]
did not very often, to be honest, because it just used to look rubbish when I was watching it. You know, it’s all the aliens look rubbish and I could never put up with it.
Rick Chapman [38:51]
It’s it’s the mid 60s so you have to give it some slack. But there were three technologies core technologies that Star Trek is built around. warp drive. Okay, we’re not even close to coming up with warp warp drive in Star Trek, the computers all talk and we’re aware of themselves. one of its most famous episodes is the ultimate computer in which a computer turns on you know Starfleet the enterprise and the teleporter you know, you’ve been around you may up Scotty all those three technologies only one has been sort of accomplished and that’s the one would have thought the least likely. And that’s teleportation.
David Ralph [39:31]
Okay, hang on, hang on. Well, you blow my mind here. I want to I want you mean teleportation what we created that I’m not aware of. Should I not be queuing up at airports anymore? Should I just be beaming to somewhere?
Rick Chapman [39:45]
Yes, is exactly I think a fellow countryman of yours wrote an interesting book called I think teleportation the impossible experiment. I could be wrong on that title. But by teleportation, we are able and I don’t want to, you know, get into physics too much physics here. But we’re currently capable of teleporting photons from one location to another instantaneously. We are able through quantum entanglement. We are they’re working on doing an electron. Their next big breakthrough is supposed to be doing an electron. And there’s even been talk maybe in the next several decades of attempting to do with a virus. But teleportation quantum teleportation, not the same thing in Star Trek, but it sort of works the same way is a reality today it’s being done at the LHC the Large Hadron Collider is being is being pursued There are all kinds of experimentation taking place with quantum entanglement. So it’s a fascinating thing to look at. So teleportation exists but a smart talking or we’re self aware computer. Not yet Not even close.
David Ralph [40:52]
Yeah, but how do I know it’s the same atom that’s appeared at the upper end the night they were the same, don’t they?
Rick Chapman [40:58]
It isn’t. It is And then that’s what’s so fascinating and in Star Trek world you basically took your atoms you scramble them up and transported them literally from point A to point B. It doesn’t in the information age it doesn’t work that way what gets transported is the information about a particle you you disappear. As a matter of fact the laws of physics require that the original be destroyed and the information about the original transmitted to a copy as it were, and recreated, so it’s a very scary document McCoy would be horrified by our approach to teleportation but that’s how it works.
David Ralph [41:37]
sending some automated photocopier that you you take a copy and you bring it out the other end
Rick Chapman [41:43]
Yes, only only in with a fax machine or a photocopier you don’t destroy the original in quantum teleportation, the original gets fried and all you end up with is the copy
David Ralph [41:53]
you know starting to blow my mind sir, you’re taking me into ways of thinking but I don’t think alike. I don’t think I like so. I’m gonna bring on a guy We were talking about earlier. I do like his words, and I understand them.
Steve Jobs [42:04]
Steve Jobs. Of course, it was impossible to connect the dots looking forward when I was in college. But it was very, very clear looking backwards 10 years later. Again, you can’t connect the dots looking forward, you can only connect them looking backwards. So you have to trust that the dots will somehow connect in your future. You have to trust in something, your gut, destiny, life, karma, whatever. Because believing that the dots will connect down the road will give you the confidence to follow your heart, even when it leads you off the well worn path. And that will make all the difference.
David Ralph [42:40]
So I’ll buy words that do make all the difference to you when you listen to them. Do you think yeah, this is a truth but we can live by not just today but you know, forever in a day.
Rick Chapman [42:51]
Yes, I think you can look at those and and agree with them. But interestingly enough in his practical day to day work, Jobs was not looking into the future. He looked back at existing technologies and improved and made them and redid them. But he always worked from a base of, of clay that someone else had initially fashioned. So one of the things you can do is you can say, from a personal standpoint, follow your follow your dream, do what it is you want to do. But in the real world, you’re often going to be dealing with existing technology existing infrastructures, and you’re going to improve on them and build upon them. Einstein was a visionary and thought thoughts that people had never thought before. But he would always have told you that he started by looking back to Newton almost had to. So in terms of your personal aspirations, when it comes down to getting things done, be prepared to look at the work of other people build on the shoulders of giants. That’s what jobs did.
David Ralph [43:58]
And what you done when you look back can be a whole life and what was your big moment when you looked back in you? You found your own personal giant.
Rick Chapman [44:07]
When I decided to write my first sci fi novel, okay, that’s when I finally made a decision in my mind to do something that was that if you look at it, you can’t go. It’s the most intelligent thing you could do. It’s the most profitable thing you could do. But it’s one thing that I really wanted to do. And actually doing it sort of shook my mind up. It made me think about the future. It made me think about how things were working in intermeshing. And I use a lot of that thinking to inspire me when I formed my startup, which is called did it you know, it’s going to be a new look at a new approach to business business networking, which is not a new thing, but I think I can do it a lot better than we are now. So I’m not going to be Mark Zuckerberg, but you know, maybe I can be you know, chat Chapman Berg 2.0 Okay,
David Ralph [45:00]
that’s good enough. We don’t need another Zuckerberg Do we? I think he done some great stuff, but it’s, it’s annoying as well, you know, French and Being Annoying. I kinda think the Facebook’s annoying as well is great in certain regards, but Oh, it drives me mental.
Rick Chapman [45:17]
I do not care for I have to have a Facebook account. We all do. But it’s not. It’s not my favourite way to do something. As a matter of fact, I don’t like any of the social networks right now. And it was that interaction with them that led me into my what you might call my jobs moment where I said, I think this can be done better and a lot more effectively and a lot more efficiently. And I, I took inspiration from jobs as the way I think he actually operated, which was to look at existing technologies and critique them and arrive at an answer. That was better than the current answer is being offered. Yeah, absolutely. Well,
David Ralph [45:57]
well said. Well said Mr. Chairman. Well, Just as the end of the show now, but it’s been a very different show. But we always end up with this because this is where we send you back in time to have a one on one with your younger self. And if you could go back in time and speak to young Rick, what age would you choose? And what advice would you give? Well, we’re going to find out because we’re going to play the theme. And when it fades you up, this is the Sermon on the mind.
Unknown Speaker [46:28]
With the best bit of the show,
Unknown Speaker [46:34]
the sermon on
Rick Chapman [46:44]
you know, I would say I would look back at myself at 1414. And I would tell myself, Rick, I’d first of all, learn how to programme Okay, understand the value of infrastructure. And by that I mean, get things cleaned, clear and organised so that when you set to work, you don’t have a lot of clutter and bother in your life. I think that’s tremendously important. And I guess the last thing I would say is, try to understand what your strengths really are. I think that one of the things that held jobs back was he kept trying to force an industry, a business model into an area that he just couldn’t be made to fit. I think that if you’re a an entrepreneur or startup, one of the best things you can do is study the industry and the history of the business that you wish to conquer or enter and and do and approach it from a position of knowledge and some basic understanding of what you’re going to be dealing with. I really do think that that kind of putting that kind of structure in your life is build the platform for success. All
David Ralph [48:01]
right stuff. Well, this is the end of the show. This is the bit that we’ve got to say goodbye to you. But before we go, what’s the number one best way that our audience can connect with you?
Rick Chapman [48:12]
You can call me up actually, I like speaking to people on the phone. I’m old fashioned. So you can call me up in the US on my mobile at age 603887549. You can reach me at Rick Chapman at soft letter calm. Selling Steve Jobs livers available on Amazon in search of stupidity is on Amazon ruleset is on Amazon. I actually there’s a website soft letter.com that you can go to I write reviews of other people’s books, sci fi books on ruleset comm so there’s a lot of ways to reach me. My contact information is on the SoftLayer website as well. So
David Ralph [48:51]
and we’ll have any links on the show notes as well. Rick, thank you so much for spending time with us today. joining up those dots. Please come back again when you have more dots. To Join Up Dots. I do believe that by joining up the dots and connecting our past is the best way to build our futures. Mr. Witt. Chapman, thank you so much.
Rick Chapman [49:09]
Thank you very much, Dave. It was a pleasure.
David Ralph [49:13]
And that was Mr. Rick Chapman. And yeah, we’ve tried three times to do about show and even all the way through that show. There was weird things happening, things peeking things dropping off. So hopefully the audio sounded good on that because the content was good. And it’s fascinating when you see somebody talk about a legend, that is Steve Jobs. And you can see it was working progress all the way through, it’s very easy to sort of look back on it and think it was almost a finished article, but it’s not. And that’s what’s fascinating about this show. And that’s what’s fascinating about all of you guys as well, because none of us are anything more than work in progress and we can do more than we’re doing and we won’t be doing as much as we will be doing and it just keeps them going day by day step by step action. action, and you will get there. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Join Up Dots. Thank you so much for being part of everything. We’ll see you again soon.
Outro [50:08]
Cheers. Bye bye. David doesn’t want you to become a faded version of the brilliant self you or wants to become. So he’s put together an amazing guide for you called the eight pieces of advice that every successful entrepreneur practices, including the two that changed his life. Head over to Join Up dots.com to download this amazing guide for free and we’ll see you tomorrow on Join Up Dots.