Welcome to the Steve Jobs based Join Up Dots Free Podcast Interview with Jerry Hyde
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Introducing Jerry Hyde
Jerry Hyde is today’s guest joining us today on the Join Up Dots podcast interview.
He is a chap from the UK who last appeared on the show back on episode 128
This is a man who has built his life around the use of stories,.
He weaves them into amazing effective ways that can help us all.
He unlocks the doors and removes the obstacles that we can find in front of us time and time again.
Doors to a life that is as much play as work, and as much work as play.
Joining Up The Dots To Today
Being in the music and film industry for over 18 years ,he has developed an approach that works well for creative types across the globe who flock to his warehouse in Seven Kings London.
Its an unusual approach which for many might seem a bit strange.
In fact after reading his personal website, he seems to thrive by being, well, slightly out of the mainstream shall we say!
As it says “…to what is possibly the only website in the world actually designed to put people off.
A dubious claim to fame, but my point being if you read through it and go – hmmm… this is a bit unusual, weird even – then I’m probably not the person for you.
If you read through it and go – cool… this is a bit unusual, weird even – then we should talk.”
He goes onto say…….
“People ask me what I do and I always hesitate – I was a psychotherapist for 13 years, then I tried calling myself a coach.
I’ve been to India and trained in Tantra but that doesn’t quite qualify me to call myself a Guru.
I’ve been buried alive and fasted in the wilderness for days on end.
That doesn’t quite make me a Shaman… and Psycho-therapeutic Shamanic Coaching Guru is a real mouthful”
So lets find out what he calls himself today, and how has he changed since the last time he was on join up dots?
As we bring onto the show to start joining up dots with the one and only Mr Jerry Hyde
Jerry Hyde shares his belief that for every book he writes it is always the book that he needs to write.
We talk about the consequence of shame in business and life today, and why this has become such an issue.
Jerry talks about some seriously out there weekends that he experienced.
Why he felt they were at the edge of his level of exploration.
The Seven Deadly Sins we discover are not in the Bible at all, so why do we obey them?
Jerry shares what he has been up to for the last few years since last appearing on Join Up Dots. This was a real eye opener.
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Audio Transcription Of Jerry Hyde Interview
When we’re young, we have an amazing positive outlook about how great life is going to be. But somewhere along the line we forget to dream and end up settling join up dots features amazing people who refuse to give up and chose to go after their dreams. This is your blueprint for greatness. So here’s your host live from the back of his garden in the UK David Ralph
David Ralph [0:21]
Yes. Hello there. Good morning, everybody. And welcome to the show. Glad to have you here. Every single one of you and thanks for bringing your ears to Well, on today’s show. It’s it’s one of these join up dots join up dots show because he’s a guy from the UK who last appeared on the show back on episode 128, we had a little complex, I said, what was it he said hundred and 30. So he was close, one to eight. And he’s a man who’s built his life around the use of stories and weaving them into amazing effective ways that can help us all and lock the doors and remove the obstacles that we find in front of us time and time again, doors to a life that is as much play as work and as much work as played. Now being in the music and film industry for over 18 years, he developed an approach that works well for creative types across the globe, who flocked to his warehouse in Second Kings London. It’s an unusual approach, which for many might seem a bit strange. In fact, after reading his personal website, it seems to fry it by being well, slightly out of the mainstream, shall we say, as it says to what is possibly the only website in the world actually designed to put people off a GPS claim to fame. But my point being if you read through and go home, there’s a bit unusual, weird even that I’m probably not the person for you. But if you read through it and go cool, this is a bit unusual, weird, even then we should talk. It goes on to say people ask me what I do, and I always hesitate. I was a psychotherapist for 13 years when I tried calling myself a coach. I’ve been to India and trained in Tantra. But that doesn’t quite qualify me to call myself a guru. And I’ve been buried alive and fasted in the wilderness for days. And but that doesn’t quite make me a shaman and psychotherapeutic shamanic coaching Guru is a real mouthful, not for podcaster. So let’s find out what he calls himself today and how he’s changed since last time he was on join up dots so we bring on to the show. To start join up dots with the one and only Mr. Jerry Hyde. Good morning Jerry How are you sir?
Jerry Hyde [2:23]
I’m good, man. Nice to speak to you again.
David Ralph [2:26]
Yeah, it’s been a long time. I can’t believe Episode 128 It feels like feels like seconds, because I’m a member a lot about the show that we recorded last time. And more often than not, I think about it. And I chuckle and there was one bit that I always remember. But you said that you spent a night in a grave. And he didn’t teach you anything just gave you a bad night’s sleep. But still amuses me today? Do you still do those kind of things Jerry.
Jerry Hyde [2:52]
I’ve kind of gone a bit further out there. Since then sleeping in a in a ditch feels a bit pedestrian got got quite heavily into plant medicine things since probably since we last spoke. And now Yeah, I’ve kind of done a certain amount of that for myself. And now I run quite a few retreats around that. But that’s a little bit hush hush, because it’s totally illegal. That kind of
David Ralph [3:18]
that kind of medicine. Why? Okay, so your electric bill is quite high, I imagine.
Jerry Hyde [3:25]
Now, I mean, I don’t do it in the UK. I’m sorry, Alaska, which is in
South American in its origins. But I tend to go to Nepal. That’s where we’ve been running in the last few years, where To be honest, I asked around and said is what we’re doing illegal. And they went well, we’ve never even heard of this stuff. So it can’t be illegal until we’ve heard of it. So I’m just keeping a bit quiet. But up until now that is, but now I think it’s you know, I found it to be a really useful tool alongside the more traditional therapy methods, I suppose that’s what I’m saying on my website. You know, it’s it’s a kind of eclectic mix of weird stuff that I bring in that isn’t for everybody. But the kind of people that are attracted to me tend to be the kind of people I’m attracted to. So yeah,
David Ralph [4:12]
well, I think he’s perfect. I really do think he’s perfect, cuz I read it. And I remember last time reading it thinking, this is weird. I kind of love it, because it’s weird. So I must be your kind of person. So so it comes down to it. That’s where if you can pull off the people that don’t like you, you get the ones that do like you and that’s our businesses made?
Jerry Hyde [4:32]
Yeah, I mean, when I, you know, when I came up with that approach, which was about 20, more than 20 years ago, now, in my businesses as startup therapist was really not working out. And I didn’t know what to do. And then guy came in for a session, he was an actor. And at the end of the session, I felt energized. And I thought why can’t all my my work be like that? And then it was that when those light bulb moments worth it will, who says it can’t be started turning people away? And saying no, right to I didn’t know you could do is, um, I started doing that. And it seemed like a really bad business model. And it just took off. And I haven’t really looked back since then.
David Ralph [5:08]
So So how do you structure your day, then we’ve all these different things whizzing up to Nepal, publishing your book, and we’re going to be talking about your book now. And the preparation that was involved in it, how do you actually structure your day, so you get things done, and you’re not just sort of dabbling a bit on this and dabbling a bit on that.
Jerry Hyde [5:26]
And I suppose I’m quite focused, really. I mean, I always start at least at work about eight o’clock in the morning, often don’t finish till 930 at night with my, my kind of ongoing therapy work, guys I’m still involved in but I always make sure to have an evening off even if it’s in the morning or the afternoon, depending on what I’ve got going on. So I’ll always take four hours out for five hours out from from the work that’s Yeah, you know, the day to day stuff. And I like to spend that time writing or die music or not doing all the admin to manage and promote and what have you all that kind of logistical sides of running retreats? So yeah, I just when I’m when I’m doing something, I’m probably I’m not a great multitasker. In the sense. I can’t do loads of things at once. You’re a man Jerry.
David Ralph [6:12]
That’s what you’re saying? Yeah.
Jerry Hyde [6:15]
By I compartmentalize. So if I’m doing something, I’m doing it, I’m not my mindset elsewhere.
David Ralph [6:20]
So So let’s talk about the book. And then we’re, of course, we’re going to dabble back into your life, because there’s so many parts of Jerry hide, which is kind of Jekyll and Hyde. Almost these Yeah, it’s very unusual. The Book of sin, you created a new book last time you had play from your effing heart, as we say, yeah. And cleaned it up for a family show. This time is the book of sin. Tell us about it? Because it’s an interesting concept as again.
Jerry Hyde [6:46]
Yeah, it’s a bit of an enigma to me. I mean, when I wrote a book, this is my fourth book, I think they’ve always been in the past. And I’m sure it’s true with this one, the book that I need to read. So Stephen King said that he’s the first reader of any his works. And that’s what motivates him. And I think the same is true for me, it’s always part of my own kind of growth process is, whatever emerges as a book is what I need to learn about myself. And I’m still trying to make head, you know, make sense of this one, I cannot remember for the life of me, what inspired me to write it. I’ve got no interest in sin. It’s not a word that is really in my vocabulary.
David Ralph [7:25]
Haven’t we all got an interest in sin slightly?
Jerry Hyde [7:28]
I don’t know. I don’t know. But I just you know, with with, with play from your heart, I remember the moment when I thought, Oh, I could write that book. And it just kind of went from the focusing, I don’t know. And it was a weird one, because I think push me hard. Really wrote it in about three or four weeks, you know, there was there was editing and stuff around it. But in a block of writing, it wasn’t very long. Whereas the book of sin, I did it as a journal bit like a kind of road trip over a year. So started on January, the first 2016. And I finished it on the 31st. So I’m going to look at the world through those lenses for a year. And also, as part of the experiment, I started micro dosing magic mushrooms, which I’d read about a lot in, you know, on social media, and in the press that it was being used a lot in Silicon Valley is
David Ralph [8:17]
Jerry Hyde [8:18]
Yeah, totally illegal. I think I got busted that it will MOBAs the year afterwards. But the police weren’t that bothered to be honest. So I’m not Tottenham’s biggest drug problem. But I’d read a lot that, you know, it was being used in Silicon Valley to really help focus creativity. And it’s also been used here a lot. There’s been a lot of medical experiments with, you know, what they call treatment, resistant depressive. So people with with depression, who conventional antidepressants hadn’t work, they were finding magic mushrooms are very effective. So yeah, I did that illegally for a year, every day. And micro dosing means you take very, you know, what they call sub perceptual doses, I wasn’t sure I didn’t notice anything other than I kind of got out of control with with writing. And I just became prolific. And I think the first draft was over 1000 pages long, we had to cut it down to 350, whatever it is now, but it made me very, very focused and very, very creative.
David Ralph [9:18]
Does he know like somebody something’s been channeled through you, I imagine you with just the pain, staring into space scribbling like a madman, or are you
Jerry Hyde [9:26]
what it was a bit like that? Yeah, I mean, whether that was the mushrooms or whether that was just a subject matter, but I picked a hell of a year because, you know, I started out I thought, well, you know, can I sustain a year, writing about one subject and then within about two weeks, David Bowie died and then everyone started dying. Suddenly, it was that year, yes. Just like Armageddon. For anyone famous, you have to watch your back. And then we had Brexit, which just came out of nowhere. And then we had Trump and I remember sitting here with my editor, the morning after Trump got in just both kind of wringing our hands and shaking our heads and going on my god, I can’t believe Trump’s got and then there was like a moment’s silence and we both sneaker my face. It’s quite good for the book. And there’s a lot of that, you know, Trump’s gonna the, you know, second one of the main characters in the book throughout that.
David Ralph [10:15]
This is what actually is it the book obscene you travel the world, looking at people that are doing noughties and then finding out why they do it?
Jerry Hyde [10:23]
Not entirely? No, no, I was looking at codes, kind of moral codes that we’ve lived by traditionally there are kind of out of wack, and I mean, the first person I went and spoke to so I thought I just took some interesting people. I talked to them, you know, a pagan friend of mine, I talked to a Sufi friend of mine, I talked to a former LSD manufacturer, friend of mine, and I took the foot with the first person. That’s why
David Ralph [10:47]
why are you not in prison. Jerry, this is what I want.
Jerry Hyde [10:51]
Yeah, they haven’t caught me yet. But the first person I spoke to was Grayson, Grayson Perry, the the artist is now friend of mine as well. And he just kind of just wrote it off in a way our sins outdated. No one’s interested in sin. It’s just something to use to sell kind of chocolates or underwear by the advertising industry. And I thought I know. But then I talked to this pagan friend of mine. And he said that, you know, a lot of the world’s problems is we got a lot of shameless people running around in the old days, people be fighting to going to hell, or whatever. And I thought that was an interesting angle. Because as a therapist, I’m always looking at the consequences of shame. And what bad thing is, but I’ve never looked at it in a positive life that actually, you know, if you go and grab someone’s Percy, and it’s written all over the press in the media, and you don’t feel ashamed, and you keep doing those kind of behaviors, then you got you’ve got a real problem. And he happens to be running the world at the moment. And visiting our very city today.
David Ralph [11:45]
He said, what you’re saying he’s a cat lover? Is that what you’re saying? Just so that I can clear this up?
Jerry Hyde [11:51]
I think your family audience, even your family audience know what person
David Ralph [11:55]
so with with Trump, then is he is he full of sin, as far as you’re concerned about? Is he does? Is he slighted? Do we look at the orange face, the white eyes and the weird hair, and project onto him our own personal sins?
Jerry Hyde [12:09]
I think it’s both I think he’s a genuinely evil man, or certainly a man with it with a very complex personality disorder that makes him extremely dangerous and narcissistic. But he’s also a reflection of our times. And he’s, I think, Deepak Chopra said, He’s, he’s the shadow side of America kind of incarnate, in, in human form. And I think that’s true. I think he really embodies a lot of the terrible things in the world. At the moment, and you know, there is there is, there are a few people, I think, you know, you got Justin Trudeau on the other side of the border in Canada, and to me, or macro, you know, I think microns, quite a good leader. He’s standing up some good things, but you got some very dark characters, and Trump’s just a kind of product of his, you know, the culture
David Ralph [12:54]
of the moment. He’s happy. Because ultimately, I know, I know, they’re the president and a prime minister, but they’re kind of more in control of and just walking around the street. You know, with that, they have to do certain things. But other people have a saying they can’t just willy nilly do what they want.
Jerry Hyde [13:13]
Well, yeah, you’d hope so. But then I think, you know, you look at some of these tweets. And it’s like I said, if he’s if he’s able to, you know, if they can’t stop in pressing that send button, they’re gonna stop impressing other buttons, you know, probably a bit more dangerous.
David Ralph [13:28]
Anyway, let’s move on from Trump, because he’s, he’s not part of the show. So you are a psychotherapist, you are a coach, you’re all these things? And you’re, you’re none of them? Is this a kind of business model that you think works for other people? Are we
Unknown Speaker [13:45]
David Ralph [13:46]
I was too focused on labels. Jerry, when somebody is looking to build a business, they’ve got to be based, they’ve got to be back, can you just say, Actually, I can be a bit of everything?
Jerry Hyde [13:57]
I think, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s a tricky one, it because you want to be identifiable. So you’ve got to put that label on a can of beans so that people know what’s in it. So a certain amount of identifying yourself, but I’m quite established. Now. I’ve been doing this for 25 years. So I don’t really need a label, people seem to hear about me, but when you’re starting out, it certainly helped me to, to kind of market myself as a, as a therapist to worked in, you know, with creative people. I think that that helped people to understand who I was appealing to,
David Ralph [14:32]
because I think generally generally, I think people are, would be frightened to do what you’re doing. You know, I love having you on the show. Because you are made in the nicest possible way, you’re made in many big and you are, you know, one step at Mass branding,
Jerry Hyde [14:45]
even that’s branding. You know, I’m the first put my hands up because I’m in New York City can’t see any of your listeners can’t see, but I’m covered in tattoos. And I’m sitting in a room that looks like something out of some kind of film set, which is part of my background. But I designed the space that we’re working with in a deliberately theatrical way. And part of the reason I have tattoos and kind of, you know, project myself in the way I do is branding, because the kind of people that want to come and talk to me, they walk into my room, they go, Okay, I wasn’t expecting this because your general therapist is going to be sitting in some kind of beige room, which I’ve worked in in the past.
David Ralph [15:24]
But did you want to be covered in tattoos? Are you just doing it for business?
Jerry Hyde [15:28]
Yeah, no, I mean, that was a personal choice, but I’ve recognized that it has value. You know, and I remember someone saying to me, when I got my hands tattooed, all you show you want to get asked at it is like Well, I think it’s a bit late for me to be looking for a job in this city to be honest. So it works. You know, it works. And I you know, yes, I didn’t get tattoos as part of my branding, but it works as part of the product that I offer, which is if you come and see me you know that you’re not getting someone dressed in tweet is going to look down their nose that you know that all therapists do that. But the kind of rock’n’roll people that I work with, I think they feel more comfortable with me.
David Ralph [16:04]
So because our listeners can’t see you know, how much of you is covered is your face covers don’t know, it’s just it’s just my arms really in my chest. How I was expecting, because I saw a picture of Obama who was an Ed Sheeran the other day, I never thought he was as tattooed as he was I just thought it was up his arms He’s everywhere. I said his face.
Jerry Hyde [16:24]
Yeah, well, the book on the cover of my new book, I actually got my tattoo artists to come and do my whole face with with the sense of lust and greed and all those kind of things are written in tattoos stone in marker pen all over my face and then I had a photographer do it and I remember when I was trying to select the picture for it, there was a very very dark scary one that I wanted and some of my friends were going on and as to you don’t want to scare readers and they want the one they picked in the end is a much lighter one with a light background. I’m saying now looks too vanilla. And they were going well come on man. You’re still a bold shape headed bloke covered in face tattoos. I don’t think you’ve really gone into the realm of vanilla and sometimes I you know probably need a bit of raining and to be honest
David Ralph [17:07]
Yeah, I’m looking at it now and I think that’s as much as I would want to go to be honest, that says what it’s it’s gonna say in teen isn’t it you know it’s it’s not it’s not a good look but I if you’re looking at and it works so so let’s let’s take through because I’m interested in this book, and I’m going to do it a totally different episode of join up dots normally we we delve back into the people story, but you can go back to episode hundred and 28 and get that. So the interesting ones I’m trying to think what all the sins are. You’ve got gluttony, you got lust, you’ve got overindulgence, I don’t know, I’m struggling with these
Jerry Hyde [17:44]
pride pride. Try this one, apparently. Right. Okay, pride.
David Ralph [17:47]
I was I was trying to think of that film seven. That was all about that. Well, okay, so
Jerry Hyde [17:51]
the pride thing, which is also vanity, and I forgot to say that as part of the year, I let myself go for a year, so I didn’t cut my hair. I didn’t trim my beard for you. So by the end of the lockup in my ship, right. And that was quite an interesting experience, just to completely let go.
David Ralph [18:07]
Is it liberating to do that?
Jerry Hyde [18:09]
Yeah, yeah, it was really liberating. I felt free, I felt confident, I felt I didn’t have to kind of worry about how I looked or anything, it’s just just going to be completely natural world for you. And that was brilliant economists it
David Ralph [18:22]
because I was in the City of London ones I used to work up in the city and I was in a suit. And I was standing there with a point outside an office one day, and it was full of bankers everywhere. So it was you know, it’s a sea of gray and blue and black suits and ties and stuff. And I saw this guy walking through the crowd. And it was it was like Moses moment, the crowd just separated. And this guy must have been anywhere between 60 and 90. He was finished, like wearing sandals. We all have every brown skin, a white beard and like the most luxurious hair ever. And he was just like glides is the only way that I could describe it. He wasn’t walking, there wasn’t any up and down and beating his head, he just seemed to glide through and this this slow pace. And I looked at him, I thought, I’d like to be like him. There was no rush, there was no worrying about what he looked like. It was just him basically being who he wanted to be. And I found that really inspiring. And I still look back on that and think to myself, you know, what happens if I just let my hair go, my wife would say to me get your hair cut, get your hair cut. So there’s always somebody counting, kind of holding you back somehow, isn’t it from who you want to be?
Jerry Hyde [19:37]
Yeah. And it was very liberating, being free of that. And you know, I said, I’ve been I met my my girlfriend that year. So you know, when I met her first day, I said, Look, I don’t normally look like this. But this is what you better get used to if we’re going to keep seeing each other. And so after the first year, she just saw me disappear between you know, beyond more and more beard.
David Ralph [19:56]
And does she liked you as much now you’ve got rid of it.
Jerry Hyde [19:59]
Yeah, I think she preferred me.
David Ralph [20:01]
She’s all over Jerry, you see.
Jerry Hyde [20:05]
Now makes it easier without with a
beard on. She’s trying
David Ralph [20:10]
to rub off your tattoos with our own hands now. Yeah, I can imagine it. So pride, you say probably these the big one end? Is that just something that naturally occurs because we’re all aiming for more of a more we’re all aiming to achieve more and more. Isn’t that something? Can you fight against pride?
Jerry Hyde [20:30]
Yeah, I mean, I’m not sure. You know, part of part of what I was looking at was, is it all bad, I mean, that the seven deadly sins, they’re not in the Bible for a start, which surprised me. And they weren’t created until about 1300 by some Pope who just wanted to frighten people. I mean, a lot of those codes. I think were designed to intimidate people, you know, spreading lies, you want to control the masses, then, you know, you create a system where there’s load rules. And if you break the rules, you’re gonna fry for all eternity in hell. So that kind of keeps people in check when it when you’re part of the ruling class. And I think that’s what a lot of it was about. So what I was really trying to do was say, let’s forget all these rules, they’re not really relevant anymore. But there is a consequence if we don’t have any rules. And I’m not going to impose any rules on you or anyone else. But I think we all need to find their own code. You know, we talk we use this phrase moral compass, don’t mean I think that’s really what it’s about. In our show. I’m a fan of Batman, Shree Rajneesh, one of the big Indian gurus, he always said that morality is so that people don’t have to think for themselves. And I think there’s truth to that. It takes effort to think through your own morality and go what’s right to me, rather than what so and so what, you know, you asked me earlier my break not Yeah, I’m breaking the law by taking mushrooms. But I don’t care because I think that’s an immoral law. I think that the idea that something that grows naturally on the planet, that it should be, we should be told that that’s illegal. I think Bill Hicks said what you saying that God got it got it wrong. So things that like heroin or crack or crystal meth? Yeah, I don’t think that’s a very good thing to be available, but things that are natural, I’m not going to follow that law, that I shouldn’t kill people or elevate that law because it’s one that I believe in, that’s my own law coming from me not because I’ve been told by the government or the police not to kill people, because that’s, that’s coming from in myself. I shouldn’t still, you know, I don’t I don’t speed when I’m driving. I don’t drink drive these because these are rules that I absolutely believe in and commit to not because I’m mindlessly following orders. And we know that they were the Holocaust quite a bit in the book, when you just follow orders, terrible things happen. So I think it’s a it’s a real kind of call to it to invite people to be a little bit more conscious and create their own rulebook and live by it.
David Ralph [22:44]
So just so I can make sure um, what I’ll have as does on the magic mushrooms in there. Where do you wait, you get them?
Jerry Hyde [22:53]
I imported them from Holland and I grow them myself.
David Ralph [22:56]
Right. Okay. Right. So it’s not something that I could just stumble over. And I must admit, I’ve never taken drugs of any sort of any sort of antibiotics and stuff. And my my defining moment of saying no to everything, and I’ve been lucky, I floated through life. It hasn’t really ever come in front of me. Other people say, Wow, well, he was in that party. Didn’t you see all going on? And I go, No, I didn’t have a clue. I was more interested in trying to get Rick Astley on the player. But this guy told me he took LSD once as a as a kid. And he took it and he’s fat and everything was good. And he said I had the most amazing evening of experiences. He said, but about nine weeks later, he was walking along the high street. And this guy was walking the other side of the road with a little jack Russell, dog, yappy little dog. And he looked at this dog and the dog yapped and then suddenly became like the as big as a T Rex, and went off for himself to the ground. And then when he looked up, it was all normal again. And he said that was the last time I ever did that frightened me just that full of not ever being in control all again frightened me. And I’ve never
Jerry Hyde [24:02]
know. I mean, you must have been getting much better acid than I got. Because I never had that experience. I always heard about it. You heard about people saying I got flashback. I never had anything like that, you know, I took a lot of acid when I was a young person. And then I turned my back on all drugs in my late 20s. And I was totally totally, you know, clean for 20 years or more. And it wasn’t till I was 50, actually, that I started to hear about this whole movement of people who were using psychedelics, but they’re using them ceremonially and ritualistic Lee and they’re using them for, you know, healing their themselves spiritually. And I’ve, for a long time, I’ve said, I’m not anti drugs, I’m anti drug abuse. And I think a lot of these these medicines not preferred, you know, the ones that I use, I prefer the term medicine really, they, you know, you look at human history, we’ve used something rather semantically or ritualistic Lee or whatever, forever and ever and ever. And the real principle is they were it was always done with respect, and it done with a teacher good guide you through it. I think that’s really important. I think the kind of stuff I grew up to as a teenager in my early 20s. It makes me shudder. Now I look back at the amazed I didn’t end up in an asylum or dead. We all
David Ralph [25:14]
when we look back at what we got up to whoever it was last year, it was drink, whatever we all look back and go God if my kids do that today. Oh, yeah,
Jerry Hyde [25:23]
absolutely. I think I mean, I do think you know, the alcohol is far more dangerous in terms of how it affects your behavior, things like LSD have got, you know, there’s a lot of propaganda around that. That’s a bit of scare mongering. And there was someone in an iOS assembly who was stabbed a couple years ago, and everyone was sending the emails of the story going, look, look, see how danger is now and yeah, that’s, that’s a really tragic, awful story of a situation that doesn’t like it was managed very well. But how many times a day of people stopped because of a bottle of vodka, or something like that, and it’s not even newsworthy anymore. So I think you got to keep these things in proportion. And all those stories, people, people thinking they could fly because they took acid, jumping out windows and stuff. I think it’s it’s kind of blown out of proportion, really the but at the same time, you know, yeah, I don’t want my kids doing this stuff. And I don’t you know, I don’t think anyone should do it without a lot of guidance. And you asked if I could define myself now. I mean, no, I don’t have a label. But I do tell people look, if you’re thinking about playing around with psychedelics, come and see me first, let’s have a little chat. I’ll give you some guidance. And maybe come and see me afterwards, if you’ve gone and done it. So I can, I can try and help you assimilate it because I think it’s all very well going off into Alice in Wonderland, but you gotta come back, you know, to come a day to day life. And that can really freak people out. Yeah, let’s emulate what they what they’ve witnessed or experienced.
David Ralph [26:45]
The thing that frightens me is that Alice in Wonderland comes with me and just sort of hangs around all the time. So now it’s not gonna happen. I’m gonna stay quiet. It’s leaky screen, click the screen. That’s not a word. But last, let’s get the Intel lost. Because last is putting it in that really what it’s all about.
Jerry Hyde [27:05]
Yeah, I mean, I’m not I’m not against any of them. I think if you’re driven by lust, and you’re using people and exploiting people, which again, you know, the President of the United States got a bit of a dodgy track record. And we’re in an interesting time in history, cuz he’s just one. We’ve got Harvey Weinstein now. Or or paedophilia or any of these, you know, these kind of the darker sides of less I think there’s a dark side to last and there’s also sex abandon and freedom and and exploration and all that kind of stuff that needs to be encouraged that whenever you squash anything, you know, and kind of push it into the shadows and guard on look at that side of myself, tends to get bigger. And I think that’s that’s the danger with anything that lust or pride or greed or anything, it’s when you deny in yourself and we’ve all got some nastiness and we’ve all got some greed we’ve all got some avarice or wherever you are, kind of remember the full seven.
David Ralph [27:57]
I’ve been trying to keep my last away for a while since I was my I could give it away willy nilly, but since I got married, there’s only one person and she likes Netflix. Is that a bad thing?
Jerry Hyde [28:12]
Again, that was a big thing that I explored not didn’t come up with any answer. Yeah, the whole kind of thing of monogamy is it natural to us? And you know, you’ve had anthropologist for forever arguing about whether it’s in our nature to be, you know, polyamorous or monogamous? And I think the reason they haven’t come up with an answer is because there isn’t one because everyone’s different. It’s a very personal thing. There’s a lot of kids now. And when I say kids, you know, people in their 20s, because I’m older, who are exploring the whole polyamory thing, and I really admire them. But I don’t think I’m evolved enough in myself to live without jealousy, you know. So that’s, that’s too challenging to me still. But good luck to them. If they can do that, if they can have two or three partners, and all cohabitate and live happily, I
David Ralph [28:53]
think it’s hard enough to keep one wife happy. Really? I mean, yeah,
Jerry Hyde [28:57]
yeah. I mean, I, you know, I’m saying to a client on this morning, you know, someone had told me, in reality, what I’d be doing for a living is sitting and talking to people, I talked to people about two things more or less. One is the fact they haven’t got a partner and they feel lonely, and they don’t know how to find one. And then I talked to him about next is that they’ve got a partner and they don’t know how to deal with it. And I think relationships is about the biggest challenge for anybody sees that in this day and age, we don’t know how to do it anymore. And they’re kind of role models and, you know, the institution of marriage, which is another structure along with, you know, these kind of things like morality in that sense, and commandments and what have you, all these structures that we’ve lived by for us for thousands of years, sometimes they’ve all collapse, a bit confused.
David Ralph [29:38]
So so you’re somebody that just seems very open minded, really open for experiences and quite extreme experiences for most people? Are there anything that you go? No,
Jerry Hyde [29:51]
just Yeah, absolutely. You know, hanging me up on hooks. I went off to Poland once and did a really for me really out there. tantric workshop for a week that info group masturbation, and nudity and all sorts of stuff that was just, you know, right up to, you know, to my edge of what I could handle. I came back and I saw someone the weekend opponent, really out there was really mad at me. And he went, do you want to see what I did this weekend? I was like, yeah, and he showed me his phone, there’s a picture of him hanging from meat hooks under a railway arch somewhere in east of the East End of London. And I’m not doing that. I’m not interested in that. I don’t care how spiritual it is, or what turn on it is or how many endorphins you get kicked off, you know, that kind of real, real kind of body mutilation. Oh, yeah. might sound a bit good school. So I’m covered in tattoos. But again, I don’t have any judgment about it. It’s just my pain threshold. You know, I think I
David Ralph [30:44]
do. I think I do have a judgment. When when i when i, first of all, I think to myself, how does he find you? And you find him? First of all, because I’ve never been shown anything like that on anyone’s mobile, it more often than know, it’s some kid falling off a slide kind of video I get shown. And how does he even find that? That’s a good question. Right? So we got we got the listeners out there. Some of them might be interested in this conversation. Some of them may not be some of them are thinking Blimey, join up dots has changed. But believe me, listeners, this is a pretty much a one off until Jerry comes on again. And it’d be it’d be another one. But how do you find these weekends away? How do you Google them what you type in?
Jerry Hyde [31:29]
It’s just the circles are moving, isn’t it? I mean, it’s that same for anyone? I mean, yeah. And
David Ralph [31:34]
you know what to type in, you know, if I was looking for something I’d Google it. But what would you type in, you know, weekend, short break away on the hooks? You know,
Jerry Hyde [31:47]
there is there is what I can’t remember I was somewhere recently I was in the pool. And they said that there was some of that going on. And there was a name for it. And I realized what they were talking about can’t remember what it’s called Now, something to do with being hung up. It’s one of those words, but was at the Tattoo Convention. And they said, Oh, yeah, and they’re also a suspension. That’s right. It was saying, oh, they’re doing suspension. And I thought what a suspension. That means it says like something when you get excluded from school or something, and then penny dropped. Was that what they mean? I think it’s a whole kind of food lon fetish kind of scene, isn’t it? Like s&m but further with stainless steel hooks? And I’ve been to networking events and just spend my time hanging around. But that’s just too much in it. Well, if you hear someone talking about suspension, that’s what they’re up to.
David Ralph [32:33]
Yeah, no, I don’t want to go there. Don’t want to go there. So so what we touched on, we touched on you think last is good. Basically, you think pride is good. I think we’re pretty much black and white on here. It’s you know, and you walk through the middle. But
Jerry Hyde [32:45]
I don’t think it’s good, though. Because I think that’s where all the problems start. And I think that’s if you look at Christianity very, very into good and evil and God and the devil. And the minute you say something’s good. You’ve kind of bought into that system. I’m not interested in some is good or not. I’m interested in what it does for you. And, and, you know, just being curious about it, I think the best thing I ever learned in 25 years of self development is just to develop is what the Buddhists call being the watcher, not just be the watcher, just observe yourself with curiosity. That’s interesting, you know, I chased after my secretary today or wherever, what’s going on in my marriage, you know, if we not been having sex, or we’ve been arguing, or whatever it is, it’s the minute you go, I’m a bad person, because I chased after my secretary, you’ve kind of closed it down, and you’ve turned yourself into a bad person. And when someone is done that, they don’t get curious that and then it gets dangerous. So you’ve got to try and keep an open mind as much as possible. That’s what makes the world a safe place. Really. Yeah. And the other thing I really learned the most interesting thing I learned from writing this whole book, was the ancient Hebrew word for sin, the literal translation meant to forget oneself. And the only real sin at all is to go to sleep. And you wake up in the Gosh, yeah, what did I do last night? I can’t believe that myself. Well, yeah, but you did it. And so you’ve got to get curious rather than judgmental, I think.
David Ralph [34:09]
Yes. Oh, and awareness?
Jerry Hyde [34:11]
Well, curiosity brings awareness, right. You know, I think and judgment, which is a big part of Christianity in God, and all that kind of stuff here, the judgment that thou shalt not and if you do your center, judgment, to me, it belongs in the courthouse, you know, it’s got function, you do something that society deems right, wrong, you go to court, there’s a trial, and they judge you as guilty or not guilty. And it’s designed to close things down. But if you do that, internally, to judge yourself as bad because you’ve taken drugs, or cheated on your wife, or whatever, then you don’t get curious. So you’ve got you’ve got to try and try and bypass your own judgmental self and go, that’s interesting. What’s going on that what was I up to, you know, what was motivating me and what, what was happening. And I tell you something, I mean, I’m not a pornography user, which is a relief, because I probably spend all my time on quite addictive person. But I talked to a lot of men in my practice. And I don’t know that any I’ve ever talked to him. And he said, they’ve used pornography or prostitution, when they’ve been happy, you know, something they’ve done when they’ve, when they’ve been unhappy to try and try and distract from their pain. And so I think, rather than saying that pornography is bad, or prostitution bad, well look at your pain, you know, maybe find a different way to, to.
David Ralph [35:25]
That’s where the awareness comes in. People are not aware of themselves anyway, people are always running away from themselves, thinking that the solution is somewhere else. I’m unhappy here, I will be heading over there. I’m not this and you know, so I think people just won’t grasp but that
Jerry Hyde [35:44]
were the most addictive culture, probably in history, you know, with all these gadgets that we’ve got that we’re all addicted to our screens and our phones and Netflix and all these kind of things, you know that the provision of addiction is extraordinary. And I know that in the advertising industry, where they used to do focus groups and what have you, their their, their, their employee, neuroscientist. Discover what do they call it, they’ve given it a nice terms called the crave factor, we want to find out the key factor so we can get sexy what they’re doing the same with drug dealers, we want to get people hooked on our drugs. It’s the same thing. You know, you can say what I’m doing is illegal, and it is in the eyes of the law, but the advertising industry are trying to get people addicted to their products, because it’s good for sales.
David Ralph [36:28]
Yeah, you never see pornography dedicated to dolphins dear. I’ve never, never seen it, you’ve been looking at the wrong side. I’ve never seen blowhole weekly. TV special. So so I’m floating up and down as you’re talking and the one that I can’t get to grips with. So hopefully I’ll have this seven deadly sins, you can clarify this is sloth or sloth. And even though I’m reading it, I don’t really understand what that actually is. Explain.
Jerry Hyde [37:00]
Yeah, I mean, that’s isn’t what’s wrong with a bit slough, you know, sloth, or I don’t know how to pronounce it, either. There’s that there’s that whole movement, isn’t it? I think it’s a magazine. And I think they’ve got a shop or they do events called the idler. And I like that there’s kind of a celebration of being idle. And I have to say that I think we’re very, very overstimulated, and overly busy society. And it used to be I don’t know, when it changed. It used to be a few years ago, you’d say someone has gone they’re gone, right? You know, kind of generic, generic, useless response. Now you are someone who has a gun, the Gosh, I’m super busy man, oh, and I’m just rammed everything’s really, really coming on top. And no one ever says where I’ve got my turn. And I think it’s just become the generic response to everything. But it’s also a reflection of the truth, which is we’re all super, super busy all the time. So being idle, you know, being lazy, which I guess is, you know, slot is the old, old fashioned word for laziness.
David Ralph [37:56]
When I’m just saying it comes from the Latin word of scdf. Without care now, to me, that’s that’s good thing to not actually have any care just sort of be it’s like the guy walking through the the bankers in in London, that’s probably defines him. And that’s probably what I liked about him. He just looked like he had no care.
Jerry Hyde [38:17]
Well, one hand you got, yeah, I mean, again, it’s not a matter of good or bad is it on one hand, you’ve got the kind of Buddhist notion of non attachment, which I’m all for. Now, on the other hand, you got people who don’t care, there was some bloke I think it was kicked to death outside test goes in Peckham on a Saturday afternoon, and people just walk by and they will call the cops. Yeah, that level of not caring is a huge social malaise. So, you know, I’m going on the Trump tomorrow, March tomorrow, it’s not gonna make any difference. It’s not going to bring him down. I’m not, I’m not under any illusions that it does anything. But it’s just a statement that I care about certain things. So yeah, there’s, it’s, you know, it’s no good or bad.
David Ralph [38:55]
So, so moving away from this, because I’m aware that their dish always almost coming to an end, what’s going through your mind now been Jerry, you’ve done this book? Is there going to be sequels? Is there going to be spin off? Is there going to be a Netflix series, the seven deadly sins with Jerry hide?
Jerry Hyde [39:12]
Now, I mean, the spirit of problems, but you know, I mean, I’m, I’m here talking to you and have some recognition, we’re talking because I’ve got a book to promote. But to be honest, I’m, I’m one of those people who when a project’s done is kind of dead to me. And it’s quite difficult for me to get out there and talk about it and promote it, because it’s now finished it two years ago. So I’m talking and I, you know, I hear the people on promoting films and stuff on telly, anything where it’s quite difficult things talk about something that you’ve already moved on to the next project. So I’m already on to the next thing. But I believe in the book, and I like the book, and I’m proud of the book. So you know, do what I can, but it’s not my main thing. So what is the next thing? I mean, I never really planet so another book might show up in my head, and I might write it at the moment, I’m starting to make a little film about men, actually, because I think it’s a very, very weird and difficult time in our society in terms of a lot of the gender stuff, you know, that I was referring to with the Harvey Weinstein’s and the me to campaign. And I think that’s really good. I think it’s really necessary that a lot of these guys are out in new in these terms, like toxic masculinity. And at the same time, someone said, to make a run all these men’s groups, someone said to me recently, well, I must be only talked about in your groups is all this me to stuff. And I was like, really, because we’ve been doing it for 20 years, you know, I mean, my oldest group is 18 years old this year. And we’ve been talking about trying to be better men and more accountable men and less abusive men, or less violent or aggressive, but nearly 20 years now. So we’re kind of on top of it. And I often get approached by film and TV, people who want to film what goes on inside my groups. And I always say no, because just their very presence, change it. Yeah. And then I was sitting in a group recently, and I looked around, I went out on your film director, and your film producer, and your cameraman, and you’re an editor, we are a film group, because of the kind of people I work with tend to be, you know, creative people. So I decided to make a film about what we do in in these closed private men’s groups, by the people in the group. So we’ve started doing some test filming of that, and we’ll see if we can make some money. And I don’t know what happened to it might just end up on YouTube, it doesn’t matter. I just want to why I just want to show people that. You know, masculinity isn’t toxic, there is toxic masculinity, but masculinity per se is not toxic. And there’s a lot of guys who are really willing and open and available shop week in week out year after year after year after year to try and be better people and just make a bit of a difference and be better dads and better sons and better partners and all that kind of stuff.
David Ralph [41:49]
Well good on you. And I love the fact that you say only YouTube but you know YouTube you could get millions more people watch on there then you would in getting into a cinema nowadays.
Jerry Hyde [41:59]
Yeah. Now I love that by the internet. You know, it’s we’ve all got a lot more control. You know, when I was in a band in the 80s, it was a nightmare. You’d have to make little cassette tapes and traipse around record companies and put them through the letterbox and now you can release your own album, you can release your own film, you can self publish your own book. I love the independent creative independence that the internet in the digital age is all about.
David Ralph [42:20]
I missed the mixtape, so don’t use me when you can stop the playlist. It’s not quite the same special girl in the special power and give it to them and you know, secret messages in the middle. It was seduction as best one that?
Jerry Hyde [42:34]
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. No, I love it. You know, you gain something, you lose something. Let’s just just program I still prefer vinyl. And I just I just sold my digital camera and bought an old analog film camera. So
David Ralph [42:46]
I take what I don’t just Yes, before we come to the end, do you remember in the 80s, 12 inch singles 12 inch, I used to buy them all the time. And I got my 12 inch singles out the other day because I’ve just got a record player. And I went into a and I said I feel record player. And the key just looked at me and I said yeah, to play record. And he went I go and get the managers and the manager came out probably about two years older than him. And I said, you know, big black thing with holding the middle and you pull it on. And he went, Oh, well have a member bows. And I managed to get one online. 12 inch singles. I put it on. My God, it bores me, I just get on with the song. Just get on with the song. I used to love that I’ve changed me I become a different person. So I told you again. Oh, yeah, getting old in? Well, this is the part and I’ve been deliberating whether to do this. But I’m going to do this anyway, very different show join up dots today. But I want to see what Jerry was like within the last three years, maybe four years of being on the show. So this is the part of the show that we call the Sermon on the mic when I’m going to send him back in time to have a one on one with his younger self. And if he could go back just for years ago, his last appearance on the show. What advice would he given? But we’re going to find out despite the Sermon on the mic
Unknown Speaker [44:10]
with the best the show.
Jerry Hyde [44:26]
Yes, the tricky one. I thought by this because I need that question that come up. I don’t think I would tell myself to do anything different to I’ve done which I couldn’t say that but any any other time. And if there’s plenty of things, I go back and go or you don’t do that. But the last four years, I think I’ve been on track. Yeah, I would say to myself, do what you’re doing go and take iOS Go Go and take I took another one called a Bogo. I’d say maybe I’m not sure I tell them. That one was a bit heavy. But you know, do what you’re doing and believe in it. And I think if I if I change anything, this is just a means emerging for me now be get out more, you know, get out and mix with people and put yourself out there. You know, it’s not enough to just sit in my room and wait for people show up, show up. I think you know, put myself out more and like I’m, I’m with you David talking to you today and not be not be so insular. I think there’s no point in kind of being such a hermit, which is kind of something I can do quite easily. But just get out there and talk to people.
David Ralph [45:27]
Great advice. And I think that would that applies to everyone. We can also be on our computers, but it’s the real life here is the other side go out and experience things. So Jerry, what’s the number one best way that our audience who have been listening today you can connect with you?
Jerry Hyde [45:41]
My website, you know, you can get my books on Amazon Jim bit ambivalent about because they like the big piece that are driving all the little bookstores out of business. But you know, it’s they make a lot of stuff available to us. So I can’t really moan about Amazon and you know the amount I use it, because I can find stuff very, very quickly. If you want to talk to me, just go to my website Carrey i.co.uk.
David Ralph [46:05]
We will have all the links on the show notes. Jeremy, thank you so much for spending time with us today joining those dots. And please come back again, when you’ve got even more dots to join up. Because I do believe that by joining up the dots and connecting our past is the best way to build our futures. Jerry Hyde, thank you so much.
Jerry Hyde [46:21]
Thank you David
David Ralph [46:27]
Right so before we get complaints that we were advocating drug use and stuff we will learn what we’re doing is advocating advocating experiences. I’m very closed off I don’t do anything like that Jerry does is there right or wrong? As he said you only on this planet once so should we be experiencing these things? Last? No. Drop us a line come over to join up dots at join up dots.com use the contact form and send us a message is that the kind of show you would like more was an interesting diversion from the normal content. Let us know we’re only here to create the content that you want. But until next time, thank you so much for being here. That was David Ralph that was Jerry hide. And we’ll see you again soon. Cheers.
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