Welcome to the Join Up Dots business coaching podcast interview with Lisa Avery
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Introducing Lisa Avery
My guest today, on the Steve Jobs inspired Join Up Dots free podcast interview is a lady who is someone that should be on the show every single day.
If i could pull her away from the sunshine of her home in Spain, and the endless supply of Sangria that is, as she is the Join Up Dots pinup.
A lady who believes 100% percent, that if you are living your purpose, doing a job that you love, then many if not all of your problems, health, mental and financial will be a thing of the past.
Which as you will see everyday on Join Up Dots is a message that I support wholeheartedly on every episode.
She is a positive psychologist, coach and writer, who helps individuals connect with the unique passion and purpose that drives their personal and professional success.
How The Dots Joined Up For Lisa
As she says “I am fascinated by what propels a person to pursue their vocation, entwining their innate strengths, values and interests to serve both themselves and the rest of the world. I fuse the art of Coaching with the science of Positive Psychology to help individuals gain the clarity, confidence and courage to become all they aspire to be.
I also undertake a variety a written projects on the subjects of positive psychology, personal development and coaching.
Creative writing has always been a passion of mine, so producing written content on the above mentioned topics is the surest way I evoke a sense of ‘flow’.”
So coming out of the University of East London, with a Master’s degree in applied Positive Psychology and Coaching Psychology it would seem that this passion for helping others find their swing was always going to be on the cards.
But as we see on Join Up Dots, this is more often than not never the case.
So did she know that she would end up living in Barcelona, whilst casting a network across the world to help the world smile and love their lives?
And where do people go wrong? Not stopping to ask “Why do i feel like a it rubbish?” or simply not stopping at all.
Well lets find out as we bring onto the show to start joining up dots with the one and only Lisa Avery
During the show we discussed such weighty topics with Lisa Avery such as:
Lisa shares how we should be able to accept our moods and emotional states when they happen without ever suppressing them. Let the energies run free.
We discuss how the majority of companies wont allow their workers to be creative with their strengths and intricacies. Why can’t we be unique and bring talents never seen before?
How we should all experiment with trying to strip away the layers that we wrap ourselves in, to find the diamond that is at our core. That gem holds the clues to the rest of our lives.
Why people have to realise that happiness cant last forever. We need to find ways of making the first stage of happiness truly deep and fulfilling, and that normally relates to helping others.
How To Connect With Lisa Avery
Of course if you want to listen to all our episodes then jump across to the Podcast Archive simply by clicking here
Audio Transcription Of Lisa Avery Interview
When we’re young, we have an amazing positive outlook about how great life is going to be. But somewhere along the line we forget to dream and end up settling in join up dots features amazing people who refuse to give up and chose to go after their dreams. This is your blueprint for greatness. So here’s your host live from the back of his garden in the UK David Ralph Good morning, everybody. Good morning. Good morning. Good morning and welcome to join up dots I’m feeling particularly good. I’ve got over my penis at Christmas and I’m now on board flow. And I feel so good I feel like running him in the garden naked. I won’t do that because of the neighbours but you know when you get to that point where you just feel like energy is flying through you. And especially when I speak to today’s guest and she says she thinks about me in the shower and she will confirm that on the show because that’s not me just making it up. But she is a lady who I’m delighted to have on the show because she is somebody that should be on it and every single day. Now if I could pull away from the sunshine of our home in Spain and the endless supply of sangria, she is the join up dots pinner. Yes official, a lady who believes 100% that if you’re living your purpose, doing the job that you love, but many if not all of your problems, health, mental and financial will be a thing of the past, which as we will see every day on join up dots is a message that I support wholeheartedly on every episode. Now she’s a positive psychologist, a coach and writer who helps individuals connect with the unique passion and purpose that drives their personal and professional success. And she says I’m fascinated by what propels a person to pursuing their vocation in twining their innate streams, values and interests to serve both themselves and the rest of the world. I fused the art of coaching with the science of positive psychology to help individuals gain the clarity, confidence and courage to become or aspire to be. I also want to take a variety of written projects on the subjects of positive psychology, personal development and coaching at blighting has always been a passion of mine. So producing written content on the above mentioned topics is the surest way I evoke a sense of flow. So coming out the University of East London with a master’s degree in applied positive psychology and coaching psychology, it would seem that his passion for helping others find their swing was always going to be on the cards but as we see on join up dots This is more often than not never the case. So did she know that she would end up living in Barcelona while casting a network across the world to help the world smile and love their lives? And where do people go wrong? That’s probably even a better question. not stopping to ask why do I feel like rubbish or simply not stopping at all? Well, let’s find out as we bring on to the show to start joining up with the one and only join up dots 100%. Official pin up, Lisa Avery. Good morning, Lisa. How are you?
Lisa Avery [2:49]
Hi David, thank you so much for such an amazing and energetic introduction. I really well, thank you. How are you?
David Ralph [2:56]
I’m very well, because you think about me in the shower. And you say? And so now official is did you say that or not? Lisa?
Lisa Avery [3:04]
I did. Indeed, I must admit, I did say that David and the reason I said that is because I had been rehearsing for the past two days, what I’m going to say at the end of this amazing interview, so I have been thinking about you in the show. But for all the right reasons, I think David say your wife can rest. The rest assured for the time being, oh, it
David Ralph [3:21]
just takes the pressure off of her. She She doesn’t mind the adulation from females across the world. It just means that I stopped chasing around the kitchen, which, you know, it’s, it’s what I do. What I love about you, Lisa is and I’ll be honest, we connected on LinkedIn. But as soon as I saw you, I thought to myself, this, this is a lady that I just love. I love everything about you. I love the fact that you are bubbly. I love the fact that you’re clever. I love the fact that you are out there helping people find their thing, you look like you are in your element, you’re in your state of flow. Is that the case? That’s every day? Do you wake up guy in this amazing? Or do you have crappy days? Not the rest of us?
Lisa Avery [4:04]
First of all, thank you so much for all those lovely things you just said, I feel fantastic. Now, I have to say David and answer to your question. I am naturally a very vibrant person and very energetic person, perhaps really, I’m sort of a little child with ADHD, I’m hyperactive. And I guess for some people that can be a little bit too much. But I like to think I bring a huge amount of energy and vibrancy to the people around me. But But of course, like anybody know, I have rubbish days to you know, the funny thing is, you mentioned that I live over here in Spain, and the Spain and not particularly well known for sort of, you know, their customer service necessarily, or whatever, in a supermarket. Sometimes I’m smiling, I’m having a little chat with the cashier. And, you know, they look startled, they’re not used to be know how their day is, you know, but for me, every single interaction we have with every human being on a daily basis, it’s an opportunity to bring a little positive emotion, you know, the good, the one thing we know about positive emotion, you know, you pass it on to one person, they pass it on to the next. And it’s this wonderful spiral outward spiral of energy, vibrancy, happiness. And I think, you know, we owe it to the people around us to be that way. But not every day is a good day, you know, sometimes life is crappy. And I think that if there’s one thing that I’ve taken away from those three years of studying positive psychology, is that we need to embrace all emotions at all times, you know, that there’s a right kind of emotion for every moment. And it’s okay to recognize right now we’re not feeling okay. And we do need a little help and support, you know, expressing those emotions and not repressing them. I think a key. But yeah, enough to original questions. For me most days are pretty good, happy days. And I feel really grateful for that.
David Ralph [5:47]
So I do something wrong, then from what you’re saying, I basically, even if I’m feeling a bit rubbish, I will convince myself I’m feeling amazing. So I should actually embrace that feeling instead of trying to stop until I make it until I’m happy. I should just go Actually, I feel rubbish today. And people on my way, people just let me feel like that.
Lisa Avery [6:09]
Yeah, in fact David I was I used to think like you did to like you do right now. I used to think that, you know, I should cover up, you know, when somebody asked me how you instantly I’d say Fine, thanks. But these days? No, it’s my answer is a little bit more nuanced. I would say, well, maybe I’m not feeling too great. Today, I’d like a bit of a chat. You know, I think I fake it till you make it thing is, is a really good thing to do with self confidence. You know, sometimes you do just have to put yourself out there, you do have to pretend a little bit. But when it comes to our emotions, and expressing your emotions, I definitely wouldn’t fake it. Because the more you repress an emotion, the stronger it grows within you. And when it comes out the consequences, the effects of that can be more devastating. So I think, you know, letting each and every emotion come through your life through you in a very natural way. That is the best way for sweet and happy lie.
David Ralph [7:02]
Now cannot be honest with you, Lisa, I cannot be honest. And this is going to alienate probably 50% of my audience in a moment. But I live in a house full of women, and they’re very good at showing me 15 emotions in in any one time. It’s it’s amazing how my daughter can go from happy to moody to sulky to happy literally in seconds. Yeah, is that right? as well, because as a man, I basically get up and I’m what I am till I go to bed at night. And it’s very rare. But I allow anybody to see any emotion of evade me pretending sometimes I’m playing and I’m happy and I’m fun. Yeah, it should she be more focused on her emotions, this this sort of, I don’t know smorgasbord that we almost get where it’s like a finger buffet of emotions that she just dips in at any time. And grab your hand for one frozen in our direction.
Lisa Avery [8:00]
Thank you. Yeah, absolutely. And this is the sort of, yeah, it’s something comical, but it’s something very true to I mean, notoriously women do express and actually do experience generally more emotional changes on a daily basis than men do. And I think there is a hormonal factor to that, which we have to acknowledge. But also, the fact is, you know, we’ve been brought up in a culture in a society where men haven’t been encouraged to express their emotion. And this actually has a very serious, you know, consequence, there’s a much higher rate to male suicide than female suicide. And that’s something that we really do need to address starting, you know, from young boys from young children. So So I think it is true what you’re saying, because women do tend both to experience and to express their emotions more freely, and on a more regular basis than the men do, the men do. And I do think that’s something we should think about addressing in our society. But I’m sorry for you David have to experience that, but I know I stopped jacking the men in my life to the day.
David Ralph [9:02]
Myself, if you’re gonna make somebody pregnant, as many times as on the head, there’s a 5050 chance that you’re going to get, I was just unlucky. It was four to one in my house, oh,
Lisa Avery [9:11]
my goodness, they are seriously outnumbered
David Ralph [9:13]
is seriously outnumbered. And even my granddaughter, I’ve got a granddaughter now and she, she’s, she’s really miserable. But anyway, anyway, that’s a different thing altogether. So what I want to talk to you about is two things. Number one is this ability to be playful and embrace your personal passion. Because people will be listening to this and going, that’s what I want. That’s what I want. I want to do that. But in corporate line, that’s frowned on. Now. I spent many, many years being told I was a maverick, or I was a loose cannon, because I operated in a totally different way, which now fits perfectly in this podcast scenario. But for many years, held me back. And they wanted me to walk around looking serious looking like I can. And to be honest, I all I cared about was getting a salary. At the end of the month, I didn’t really care about targets and performance agreements, and all that kind of stuff. It’s a problem away totally wrongly. So to be saying to people, you should be able to evoke a sense of flow and enjoy yourself when the world around you isn’t allowing them to do that.
Lisa Avery [10:18]
Yes, I think certainly a sense of flow is not something we can just devote Well, you know, at the click of a finger, I think David the real problem, you know, in corporate land in huge corporations, very often people are not using their innate strengths and talents on a daily basis. They’re not very aligned with the company’s mission, you know, they don’t see the bigger picture. They’re just working within a tiny fragment of what the huge corporation does. So they don’t get to see the end result, you know, that they’re very disconnected from the company’s vision and mission and that static D motivated. You know, David, interestingly, from psychology, we know that human beings motivated by three things, they’re motivated by autonomy, they’re motivated by feeling competent, and they’re motivated by feeling connected to other people. And I think sadly, in many companies, people don’t have very much autonomy, they don’t get to feel very competent on a regular basis, you know, that their skills are not being pushed to the max. And they don’t necessarily feel very connected. You know, I guess it really depends on who you’re working with. But they don’t always feel immensely connected to their teams. And I think when these three things are missing, yeah, you get people who are demotivated, you get the burnout, you get just, you know, feeling very disengaged with what you’re doing. And that, to me is very sad. Because I cannot perceive work as anything but a vocation. And that is very sad that I see so many people live in those kind of jobs, you know, and many people I speak to David they recognize that. And it’s incredible how disempowered they feel in those kind of jobs. And they’ll say to me, Well, you know, I enjoy Deke doing this. And now, and the very language that describing this, we’re in a language of disempowerment. And they’ve almost given up David I don’t know, if you sort of speak to a lot of people like that yourself. But they’ve almost given up,
David Ralph [12:13]
I seem to have fallen into the next category previous when I when I was in corporate, and it was very much. And I used to be sort of sitting around thinking, you know, I want to do this, I want to do that. And I’m very futuristic. I took the Strength Finders thing, and my number one was futuristic. And that is absolutely me. I’m always about what’s tomorrow and what we could do next week. And wouldn’t this be brilliant and won’t be fantastic. And the majority of the office, were just just doing it, just doing it for an easy life to get home. Every now and again, they would rally themselves, get a few points down their throats and say, Oh, I’m going to quit race. And I’m going to go off and do this. And I’m going to do that. And then the next week, they were back there doing it. Yeah, for my podcast, I’ve gone to the next stage where people have shaken themselves up from that point. And they are looking for either permission to do something more aligned with their own passion. Or they know that they’re not happy anymore, but they don’t know what they want to do. And I think that’s a very easy one to fix. Because they’ve already got the momentum going already. What do you think, Lisa?
Lisa Avery [13:18]
Yeah, absolutely David I mean, a lot of the people that I meet through coaching, they come at a very similar moment to what you’re describing. So me know that there’s got to be something more to life, they’ve got a real inkling that they’ve got something in them that they’d like to use that they’d like to reconnect with. But they just don’t quite yet have it clearly define them, that’s when they sort of come to me to get that clarity. To get that definition. As you say David, I think many times from a young age may to the age of seven or eight, we’ve got this real sort of inkling for what our true vocation is, you know, there are things that are innate talents and strengths that we an interest that we have, and that we’ve always had inside of us. And I think, you know, around that age, they’re in a very natural state, because at that time, we haven’t had too much school or society, or parental influence to really, you know, change the path to try to determine who we’re going to be. And so I think, for me, when people come to me in this state, it’s a case of really tapping back into who they’ve always been, I like to think of it as a non and you know, when you’re trying to find your authenticity, here, you really are, you don’t need to go out into the world and add things on to what you are, instead of that we need to peel away layer by layer, things that we’re not, you know, so very often people come and they tell us stories, and the stories, the identity that they have about themselves, their own conception of their identity. It’s what other people have said, it’s what other people have thought about them, you know, a little by little we strip away all that is extrinsic, to really get to the core of the person. And here they are, you know, and everybody has the, you know, some unique talents, passions, innate gifts, that we can access. And from that moment of clarity, I think personal can become really, really confident, and really determined. Because until you know who you are, it’s very difficult to believe in yourself, you know,
David Ralph [15:12]
Oh, I love this. I love this conversation. Because Yeah, I think that you do strip it back. But at its core, we all got that diamond, we’ve got that thing waiting for us. But the trouble is it so it’s been with us for too long, it’s been with us from birth, it’s our natural gift. And when we were little I used to talk about this all the time and join up dots but when you were like four or five and six, and you didn’t have money, you didn’t have targets, you didn’t have all the sort of stupid stuff that book outs down, you would just do this, this, you would Polish this diamond and you would use it and you make people happy, or you’d enjoy yourself. But as you grow up, you kind of think that’s just what I do. You know, I just do that easily. I’m just gonna leave it behind. You know, I’m absolutely adamant, Lisa, but at my core, my diamond is being an idiot. I told him, I totally believe I’ve at my core, it’s about being naturally me naturally enjoying myself and allowing other people to see that they can do the same thing. They can just embrace their own super talent and go forward. But it’s hard, isn’t it? When when is it? It’s been wrapped up in so many layers of onion, and you get to in your hand and you look at it and you think what we sold this, I got this in my pocket for years, I can just do this. People can’t quite translate that to I can make a business out of it.
Lisa Avery [16:32]
No, I absolutely see what you’re saying David and I think it’s fascinating that it’s actually a very eccentricities, the things that make us a little bit different to others, rather than the same as others, that are usually the things we can leverage and take forward, be it in a personal or professional setting. And whilst it’s true that you might not instantly be able to translate those, those innate talent, so that way of being into a profession, what I think you can do is experiment on it daily basis, start using this on a daily basis, seeing how it plays out in the world, you know, so I think it’s really when you’ve got a struggle and kind of the kind of things you’d like to bring to the world, but you don’t know exactly where it’s going, then it’s time to start building your network, it’s time to start speaking to people, it’s time to start having a look around seeing what other people are doing. And I think you know, when you get to see what other people are doing, you start to have an inclination of who you am being an Earth is a great one. Because who you who you secretly envy is probably who you would quite like to emulate who you’d like to be like. And I don’t think you need to copy anyone necessarily, but to get inspired by somebody, I think is a great thing. So I think Little by little, you shouldn’t be afraid to start experimenting, putting yourself out there, and seeing how the world reacts to that. You know, it’s just a case of finding the way to show up in the world as you are and serve the world with your innate gifts and talents. So you grow and the world grows because of it. You know, and I think for me David like having a vocation it means constantly been in constant growth and evolution. So you’re forever becoming the better version of yourself. And at the same time, you’re making the world a slightly better place, which you absolutely do with this podcast. So I think congratulation.
David Ralph [18:16]
Thank you, Lisa, if you were here. Now if we was in the shower together, I’ll give you a squeezy hug, I would
tell you why in a shower, I’ll be there straight away, I’ll be straight away. These words, and these are the words that we play every single day. But I really tie into what we’re talking about today. Jim Carrey,
Jim Carrey [18:38]
my father could have been a great comedian, but he didn’t believe that that was possible for him. And so he made a conservative choice. Instead, he got a safe job as an accountant. And when I was 12 years old, he was let go from that safe job. And our family had to do whatever we could to survive. I learned many great lessons from my father, not the least of which was that you can fail at you don’t want. So you might as well take a chance on doing what you love.
David Ralph [19:04]
Now, I’m inspired by those words and add. I’ve been changing direction and people have been listening to the show will know but I’ve been changing direction. Because at the beginning, I thought yeah, that’s brilliant. Go for what you love, go through what you love. But then I started thinking but people don’t know what made up. And it’s kind of ties into the Steve Jobs theory about customers don’t know what they want. You’ve got to give them what they want before they can see. But they want it. It’s a kind of different way of doing it. When you was going through your studies when you was in the London University of East London. Did you know right? Okay, this is what I’m going to do with this information. I’m going to go out and I’m going to smile boldly. And I’m going to show people a new way or did you just go I’m going to do this. I don’t know where it’s going to lead, but it’s just something to do.
Lisa Avery [19:52]
Tonight. That’s a brilliant question. And not to me It started way before the University of East London, because my original degree like 15 years ago now scarily. 15 years ago, I was in foreign languages. And that’s why I ended up in Spain. So after graduating from from studying languages, I came to Spain, and I worked with some companies with some schools, primary school secondary schools. And actually, I’d always had always had that this really interest for psychology, and I considered taking it as a degree. But science at school and maths were not my Forte’s really, they were not the subjects that I was better. So I kind of convinced myself that now psychology wasn’t quite for me. But it never went away David it never went away. And so then what happened by chance, one of the companies where I started teaching was the School of psychologists in Barcelona. And at that time, I it just seemed like my God, why isn’t this my life? This is what I really want to be doing. You know, I got involved with organizing the International Conference of coaching psychology, I got to translate and interpret for all these wonderful psychologist. And it was that sinking feeling? Uh, oh, God, have I missed the boat? Yeah, shouldn’t This shouldn’t this have been my life. And, and it was, it was a really awful feeling at that time. But I’m glad I’m so glad I experienced it. Because maybe a year or so later, I found that the University of East London were offering this program. And I and it wasn’t too late. And I got accepted, you know, and I can’t tell you at that time, it was probably the first time in my adult life, that I really wanted something. And I wanted it so badly. Like had never wanted anything by anybody, for that matter.
David Ralph [21:34]
So let me just stop you there. Why Why did you feel that pain? Why did you build it was the first time
Lisa Avery [21:43]
until this point in my life, I just kind of drifted along, you know, I did languages because teachers at school had told me I was brilliant at languages. I didn’t know what I wanted to do with those languages. So I just kind of fell into English teaching because it was easy. And whilst I think I was I’m good at that. It was never an immense passion, you know, what I loved about teaching was seeing that development in a person, you know, seeing how they could come into the room not believing themselves, believing in themselves and leave the room, you know, thinking God, if I can do this, what else can I do? So it was seeing that growth within a person. But when I started masters, it was like every aspect of me was so aligned to what I was studying, you know. And at that time, perhaps I didn’t know quite how it was going to play out and what I was going to do with it. But I remember that sense of alignment like I’d never ever had before. And you know, the funny thing was David I can remember sitting down perhaps about 10 years before actually in in Leeds in Leeds City Center, having coffee with my dad, and actually being close to tears as I got a lecture from my dad about what the hell are you going to do with your life now. And I remember saying, I just want to empower people, I want to help people, I want to make people feel happy with who they are. And he was like, well, that kind of job just doesn’t exist, what do you want to do? I mean, at that time, positive psychology hadn’t really come into it. So and it was just really starting. because traditionally, psychology had looked at what was wrong with a person, you know, whereas positive psychology is very much looking at what’s right with a person, and how we can make that better, you know, how we can make people flourish and thrive. So I remember at that time having this notion that was something I wanted to do, but I didn’t know how to express that. So you know, coming to Spain, and then coming to the School of Psychology and getting that reminder of this is who you are, Lisa, isn’t it time you did something about it. That was the best thing that ever happened to me, I can safely say,
David Ralph [23:36]
up to this moment at Lee Haney funny if I were parents, so because my my my dad is just gonna be at next year. And he still says to me, when this thing you’re doing stops what you’re going to do, and I go to him, he’s not gonna stop. This is my thing. This is my thing dead. And other people, I’ve gone to dinner parties with people. And they say, are you still doing that podcasting thing, just like, it’s kind of like a hobby, they all kind of want you to step back. And I will say to the world, and I say to my kids, you know, work really hard. Study, self development is the key. But it doesn’t have to be school self development, it doesn’t have to be the boring stuff, that’s just me, you know, you’ve got to be doing it because it’s in front of you. It’s the stuff that you’ve got an interest in. Because if you find any interest, you’re halfway there. And if you really, really study and become an expert, you leave behind all the lazy people that can’t be bothered. And you’re starting to make yourself a category of one. And once you get to that point, you can literally write your own ticket, you know, I’ve created join up dots as I started it, I didn’t know where it was going to lead. It was just something about podcasting. then little by little, I’ve now got to the point where we’re just bringing it into the fore. And we are aiming to teach a million people across the world how to actually create a life under their own terms, dream life, we’re bringing coaching, we’re bringing in website W, we’re bringing in all these connections that I built up over the last three years. But I didn’t know that it was going to be there. But it now seems to me that just because I’ve started getting interested in something, and becoming hopefully better and better. I’ve now found the thing that I was aiming for, and that aiming is about giving back, pushing back and inspiring 1 million people and people say to me, you don’t know 1 million people? And I don’t know, I don’t I don’t. But that’s the key thing. That’s the target. That’s what you aim for. It all comes together. Right have nots once you actually going to go on that journey, doesn’t it? Lisa?
Lisa Avery [25:33]
Absolutely. David, I can’t tell you how inspired by your journey I am and I’m sure everybody listening is to You’re such an incredible example of somebody who’s had the courage to follow his heart, you know, in surrounded by people who perhaps were slightly skeptical, slightly wary of what you were doing, and really breaking the mold. I think, really David what it is people are afraid people are really afraid of taking the risk of putting themselves out there. Especially you know, when we’re not in our 20s anymore, but what the only thing I really think and passionately believe is it is never never too late. You know, neuroplasticity shows us that the brain is constantly changing, developing until the day we die. If that’s the case, how could it ever ever be too late to make those changes? And as you say David, I don’t think you have to necessarily know the ultimate destination, because none of us know that. But what you do have to do on a daily basis is start becoming more and more aligned with who you really are, what you’re really interested in what you really want to offer the world. And little by little you find the way to make it work and you find that direction. I think you know, well stepping, you’re living in alignment with who you really are, there isn’t any wrong place to go. And I think you know, as you say, you might not know exactly how it’s going to work, but start taking steps. It’s all trial and error, you know, and not being afraid of little mini setbacks and failures along the way. You know, I psychologist Carol Dweck, she talks about the growth mindset. I don’t know. Have you ever heard about that David Yes, I have. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And so really seeing failures, just lessons learned along the way, knowing that we’re constantly going to be able to learn, learn and grow from what we do, and not be afraid to give things ago, you know,
David Ralph [27:16]
I mean, what we should do, Lisa, we should run away together, we should breed like rabbits on an island and start around community of really positive offspring. And we, we could spread them across the world. Because I’m aware actually, at the moment, I am totally anti social media, I don’t look at any social media other than the soccer results, the purple results. And it’s made me so much happier, because there’s no competition. And I would love everybody out there to actually break free from comparing themselves with everything else, which I think you would get if he was on an island, if he was on an island and you had no Wi Fi and you could just do your own thing, you’d wake up and you’d make bold decision based on where you wanted it to put you the next day, or by the time you go to bed by evening, little by little your life and your situation and your environment would change. But the world out there is being bombarded by people that are either ahead of the curve because they’ve started already, or they’re lying to you by telling you how wonderful their life is. Because it’s not true. I’d like people to sort of separate themselves. But is that possible with your positive psychology? Are people on a one way track to kind of despair just because of this kind of information overload?
Lisa Avery [28:27]
I think David it ties back really nicely into what we were saying at the beginning about, you know, the need to express our authentic emotions. I think so much you know, what you’re seeing on social media. It is it is an exaggeration. You know, we see happiness and joy and happy families and relationships and exotic trips. And of course not life. Not every moment of life is like that. And I think so often, too, when we hear success stories, we only hear the end result, you know, we only hear about the success. We don’t hear about how difficult the journey is. And it is three, you know, I might hit myself like you’ve been I know how hard how disheartening it can feel and how lonely it can feel at times, which is why I think it’s really important to connect with like minded people, people who have these big visions, you have these audacious goals, just like we have to really, you know, to have some company along the way because it can be a very lonely place. You know, like yourself David some days, I’ll explain to my family what I’m doing. And I can see that they’re thinking, well, we’ll have something a little bit more stable, guaranteed, you know, now, now they’re coming around, because they can see a bit of progress here and there. But in the beginning, it’s a struggle. It’s really hard. But it’s worth fighting for. And it’s, you know what it’s worth fighting for? Because it’s who you are. You know David I don’t know about yourself, I think it probably is the case. But for me my work and my identity there and twine and I couldn’t possibly separate them, who I am is what I do. And what I do is who I am, you know, I think that is I am but I am.
David Ralph [30:02]
Also it comes together. Because I think I’ve got two talents, one I can be totally myself without restriction. And I think the second thing is about when I used to call it my motivation rocket, when I get really sort of infused and a passionate about a subject, I can basically blast it into people and I can see that then they can grow. Now this is a format that works brilliantly for that when I’m passionate. I know it comes across quite well. But still to take that from where you are being yourself doing what you want to do, as we’ve been discussing with yourself, how do you convert that into coaching? How do you because I see this, Lisa, I see that people that are naturally good at something are naturally rubbish at sales, and ultimately all comes back to sales. So we can all sit there going, Yeah, let’s be in a state of flow. Let’s be positive. Let’s strip away the onion. Let’s find out diamond insiders. But how did you van Cumberbatch, somebody that’s going to go You’re the woman for me, you are the woman and I want to pay you?
Lisa Avery [31:05]
So So I think it’s a great question. It’s the million dollar question. Sorry, the million dollar question. In fact, for me David it, it’s just relationships, just absolute pure connection and relationships with people. Because like, like what you were describing, I don’t particularly like the concept of sales, the notion of sales. And it’s something that I myself, I’m still working through. But the the sales that I’ve made up to this point have just been pure relationships, cultivating really natural, really positive, really generous and giving relationship, being prepared to give so much before you actually receive anything. And even giving without particularly thinking about what you’re going to receive in return, you know, just just giving a lot of great content, adding value to people’s lives. You know, I think that is the only way you can go about this. I don’t really myself going for the Facebook advertising and this kind of thing. Maybe it’s something I’ll try at a later date, that there was a wonderful book called The prosperous coach by Richard and I don’t know if you’ve heard of that.
David Ralph [32:07]
No, I haven’t heard about when you tell us about it.
Lisa Avery [32:09]
Sure, sure. And he talks about the sales process in a in a very sort of natural and useful way, I think. And he just talks about building your business one relationship at a time, you know, having useful, deep meaningful, connecting conversations with people one conversation at a time. And I mean, I don’t know about you, David, but a lot of my work in the past has has grown through referral, just word of mouth. For me, that is the strongest, most powerful way of, of moving an idea of moving the business forward one person at a time. And that can feel very frustrating, you know, very time consuming. But for me, that’s the most natural and organic way to let something grow
David Ralph [32:52]
doesn’t excite you, oh, does it excite you the fact that you could be providing value to someone and out not getting anything back? But does it does it bother you in any shape or form?
Lisa Avery [33:04]
No, in the sense that this is who I am. And it’s kind of like what I do anyway, whether or not I was getting money from that, of course I need to live we all need to live. And I think you know, when you can find a way to make money doing something you love, for me that that is perfect. There isn’t anything better in life at all. But But I genuinely enjoy making those connections and having those conversations. And knowing that I’m building a community, I’m building a strong group of people around me, but hopefully I can give something to them. And perhaps one day, if I need something they can give back to me too. But the expectations that they’re not always there, I mean, maybe sometimes they are there, I have to be honest. But in theory, most of the time when I’m trying to be helpful and kind to people, it’s an expression of who I am. And it has to be ultimately, you know, when you’re doing something like this, you’ve got to believe in it, your hearts got to be in it so much, you’ve got to want it so badly. You know, it’s very difficult in this kind of work. Because as I said before your identity and your work, they’re so intertwined, that it’s difficult not time to not take things personally, because it’s who you are. So of course, you know, your the work you do is a reflection of that. So if at any point you feel some it doesn’t necessarily like it or wanted or needed it just a little bit. But But then again, I think if you do anything that has so much heart involved, you know, you’re putting yourself out there, you’re putting yourself on the line. And and yeah, it’s it’s scarier than hiding behind, you know, computer in some safe, stable job. But at the same time, whilst it’s scary, there’s so much more you could possibly get from that, you know, and grow as a person. So I think you know, any kind of entrepreneurial route, you’re taking the Uncharted path, it’s always going to be hard, it’s always going to be slightly uncertain. But there’s so much more potentially to gain.
David Ralph [34:55]
Oh, absolutely. And I just think that is like today, one of my mates I used to work with a long time ago, he connected with me and every first day is join up dots recording down a birthday. And he sends me a message and says, you know, enjoy the recording today, mate. And I said to him Do you know I realized this morning about I never have to ask for a guest I’m literally blocked out till end of April six, seven, every Thursday, bang, bang, bang. And it was a success metric, but I hadn’t reflected on because when you’re doing something and you’re just working towards a goal, you forget that you’ve achieved so many other little goals that are already there. They’re growing, it’s like planting a garden, you’ve already planted a lot of seeds, and some of them are starting to spring up and making your life easier. And I think that’s one of the things that people struggle with. When building a business is and I’m a classic case of is I don’t stop enough to actually look back and go, Wow, I’ve really done a lot here. I’m always looking forward thinking this is what I need to do. This is what I need to do next. Do you struggle with that? Do you ever sort of lay down and pour sangria in your mouth and go? I’m taking the afternoon off? I have done? Well. This is a twinge for reflection.
Lisa Avery [36:10]
Absolutely, definitely laying down and pouring sangria in my mouth. No, seriously. I mean, absolutely David you know, the interesting thing is recently, they discovered in psychology that people are much more forward thinking than we used to think then we used to sort of imagine, you know, we used to think that people thought a lot about the past. And that was why they couldn’t move on. In actual fact, we do as human beings spend much more time projecting into the future. Now, well, that’s not necessarily a bad thing. In fact, I think it’s a great thing in so many ways, you know, it’s motivating or thinking about what we can do what we’d like to become, I think, as you say, it’s really important David to just sit back and savor the present, you know, and save all that we have achieved. Because, you know, we don’t often we’re not very kind to ourselves, we and we don’t often congratulate ourselves as much as we should, you know, like these tiny little achievements, my goodness, at one time, they would have seemed impossible, or way out there. So absolutely, I’m totally with you, we have to celebrate every small victory. Yet at the same time, be mindful of the fact you know, we are going to go on there are more things to do more things to learn. I think for me David life, it’s never ever going to be about the destination. Because once we get there, no matter what we achieved, there always comes a moment when we’re thinking, well, what’s next is great, but what’s next, you know, we’re never quite satisfied. And that’s because there wasn’t really anything or anybody that’s ever going to make us permanently happy know, what makes human beings happy. I think I mean happiness, we could really open up this word and sort of explore what that means. But what makes people feel good, I think is the constant sense of evolution, you know, constantly evolving in every aspect of life. There’s, there’s a really lovely acronym is an acronym, which I think is really useful from positive psychology. And that’s poem, p, e, r m a, n it that stands for positive emotions, engagement, relationships, meaning and accomplishment. And I thank you for able to move forward with every one of those aspects in life, you know, pretty much all the time, however, gradually an incremental those steps are, I think we’re doing pretty well. You know, for me David, it’s not about achievement. It’s not about achieving one particular thing that’s going to make you happy ever after. It’s about knowing you’re constantly evolving and growing as a human being. And no matter what the age, you know, no matter what age you are, you need that evolution. So So
David Ralph [38:40]
are you saying that we can’t ultimately be constantly happy? can we can we not stay? When people say, Oh, you’re living the dream? It sounds amazing. Is that never going to be the case? You think?
Lisa Avery [38:51]
I don’t think so David and I don’t think we want it to be the case. Because imagine if you lived in a permanent state of bliss, I think will be awful. You know, the irony is the term positive psychology, a lot of people equate that with positive thinking and Happy, happy, happy. I love happiness as much as anybody else does, I aspire to happiness. But it’s not realistic to think that every single day is going to be a blissful positive celebration of life, it’s just not realistic, you know, we have our ups and downs. And you know, the very down sort of, you know, make the UPS even better, even richer. So I don’t think we need to aspire to that. And there’s this thing you know, called hedonic adaptation. And what it means is, no matter how good or bad, anything happen, however, sorry, however good or bad things are in life, there’s always going to be a moment when we get used to what’s happened, you know, so there’s this incredible study where people are two groups of people are analyzed why people have just won the lottery. And another group of people have just lost a limb. So their initial level of happiness is registered at that moment. So obviously, the people who’ve just won the lottery become very happy for the short term, and the people who’ve just lost a limb become very unhappy as you’d expect. But the interesting thing is a year later, psychologists go back to revisit these two groups of people. And they actually find that the level of happiness and life satisfaction in both groups has actually gone back to a very similar level as what it was pretty much the day or week before the incident happened. So I don’t know what you make of that David
David Ralph [40:30]
I tell you what I make about I think that’s what I’ve been through what listening to that when I when I started join up dots the first year was a terrible really was it was so odd, it was untrue. Second year, I thought this is brilliant is amazing. You know, I am living the dream, I’m so happy. And then in the third year, I just felt really flat, totally flat. And I was just thinking, and I remember saying to my mate, he said, Well, you built this, you should be happy. And I said, Yeah, no, we should be happy. But it’s like dating the most attractive lady in the world that you really want to. And then after three weeks, you see her picking a nose or something and you kind of think she’s not as nice as I thought she was going to be, you know, she’s just normal is he is a bit ambitious, I bought a dream was going to be better than that. But now, I’ve kind of come out of it now. And I’m finding up in a deeper happiness. And that deep happiness is about giving back more. And I think when I started it, it was very much survival state. So it was about what I could gain from it. But now it’s very much about what I can put back. And I think the happiness is coming. Because there’s a mission in both. There’s a mission that wasn’t at the beginning. It was a self serving mission at the beginning of creating this, but now it’s not as an outward going one. Yes,
Lisa Avery [41:45]
yes david i think it’s fascinating what you’ve just said. And I mean, what you’ve learned there sort of took me a year of intensive studying my last year, this master took to actually learn and to prove, because my final research project was on this record question, you know, what propels a person psychologically to pursue their vocation. And there was this there’s this line between self actualization, which is becoming the very best version of yourself, and self transcendence, which is going beyond yourself. And in every person that I interview, to see what really sort of motivated them and what made them feel good about what they were doing. It was always the giving back to others part that really made the work so special, you know, everybody wants to really use their skills and talents and to become the best version of themselves that they can be. But at the end of the day, the real the real difference, the thing that really differentiated that work from anybody else’s work was the fact that they were able to give a gift to the world in their unique way that probably nobody else could in quite the same way.
David Ralph [42:51]
Well, there’s probably some words now from a guy who certainly did leave his gift on the world. Even these words, we need to listen to him every day Steve Jobs
Steve Jobs [43:00]
Of course, it was impossible to connect the dots looking forward when I was in college. But it was very, very clear looking backwards. 10 years later. Again, you can’t connect the dots looking forward, you can only connect them looking backwards. So you have to trust that the dots will somehow connect in your future. You have to trust in something, your gut, destiny, life, karma, whatever. Because believing that the dots will connect down the road will give you the confidence to follow your heart, even when it leaves you off the well worn path. And that will make all the difference.
David Ralph [43:35]
powerful words Lisa?
Lisa Avery [43:39]
Wow, I have a shiver down my spine every time I hear those words, but
David Ralph [43:44]
I don’t know what it is. Is it the trust? Is it the faith? Is it the intuition? Why are they so powerful? Because I listened to him. And literally every day I come from a slightly different angle dependent on my mood.
Lisa Avery [43:57]
Yeah, for me David it up. It’s that it’s that inner wisdom, it’s trusting that you already know what’s inside of you that perhaps you don’t yet dare to acknowledge. But you know, it’s there is that latent potential that I think sends a chill that everyone’s fine. You know, human beings were capable of such greatness. And I think those words just tap into that innate, knowing that innate wisdom. And I think, you know, the question is, what do we do with those words? It’s one thing to listen to them and to feel inspired by them. But when are we going to take action on those words? What can we do today? What can we do just to change our destiny? Just taking the first 1% that
David Ralph [44:44]
I don’t even think it’s a 1% step. I don’t even think it’s a step. I think the the important bit and somebody said this, to me recently, he said, Everybody thinks that you start from a level playing field, but you don’t, you start by digging a hole to vape foundations. And I think that is the I think when if somebody’s out there now and they’re sitting and they’re feeling a bit crappy, and wondering why I’m not happy anymore, and why this job, I used to think it was great. And nobody out goes into a job interview and gets told, you know, this is gonna be a crappy job, and you’re going to hate it, we all got plenty of we’ve got the new job, this is going to be amazing. This is going to be great. And we saw going with all the enthusiasm in the world. But I think that is where they are digging their whole ready to go. I’ve been once they get to the lowest point, they dug the hole for the foundation. So I don’t even think it’s a simple step. I think it’s backward steps to be move forward.
Lisa Avery [45:36]
Absolutely David Yeah, I kind of what I’m back to my idea. And once again, it’s it’s not the adding on it, as you say it’s the taking away, taking away, I think you’ve got to really get clear on your own inner voice. Because so often, we make the mistake of believing every single thought that we have. And that’s a real mistake. Because so many of our thoughts within those thoughts. We have the voices of parents and society, it’s all big message. It’s all in Tango. So first of all, we’ve got to get really clear about our own inner voice. And what that saying to us, and very often in our inner voice is very critical. So we’ve got to get a bit of self compassion there. We’ve got to start to articulate you know, who it is that we are, we’ve got to get really clear about that. And as you say to me, yeah, absolutely. It’s more about stripping away the extrinsic to, to get to the core of who we actually are.
David Ralph [46:31]
So when you listen to those words, I asked this question almost every day, so I’m gonna ask it to you, Lisa, this is a big on your timeline that really pointed the way.
Lisa Avery [46:42]
Yeah, not looking back how as I said, as I hinted at before, for me, it was coming into contact with the School of Psychology in Barcelona, because had that not have happened, I might not have been reminded of who I really was, and everything I was missing, maybe I would have made it that would have been another circumstance, another encounter. But that, to me was a massive reminder of everything I’d always wanted to be but had never quite acknowledged enough.
David Ralph [47:13]
And is it easy now is your life easy? Always it, you know, he’s, he’s not he’s still use a flow all the time, you’re still churning out going through the grind?
Lisa Avery [47:24]
Definitely David definitely. As we were saying before, like, this is not an easy journey, but it’s an immensely worthwhile one. You know, I think we have to make a distinction between happiness and meaningful lives. So something that makes you happy, you know, this is positive emotions, he Haha, it’s not always that way. But even on a crappy crappy day, it’s very meaningful, because I know that I’m working towards a vision that I feel so strongly about. But in terms of my inflow, you know, when I’m coaching someone, I mean, I’m absolutely in the flow, when I’m writing when I’m, you know, when helping somebody to become the better the best version of themselves. I’m absolutely in the flow. But of course, you know, there’s getting clients sort of putting yourself out there that’s waiting, because to be retired, that kind of thing. That’s very frustrating, you know, and yeah, it’s, it’s an uphill struggle at times. But then when you see the results, when you see you know, the fruit of all your hard work, it feels very, very worthwhile. Is it pleasurable every single day? No, am I in flow every single moment? No, often I am and the moments I am, it is all completely worthwhile. And I can’t think of anything else I prefer to be doing with my time.
David Ralph [48:38]
Yeah, that’s the way to live a life It really is. And it leads us perfectly to the partner show when we’re going to send you back in time to give those kind of bits of advice to your younger self, because this is the Sermon on the mind, where we’re going to send you back in time to have a one on one with your younger self. And if you could go back in time and speak to the young Lisa, what age would you choose? And what advice would you give her? Well, we’re going to find out because we’re going to play the theme. And when it fade to up, this is the Sermon on the mic.
Lisa Avery [49:27]
I’m going to go back to speak to 21 year old Lisa Avery, because at that time, I think my identity was quite fragile, I didn’t have very much confidence in who I was. So I think that would be the perfect time to speak to myself. And I’m going to say to myself that the most important thing is to find out who you are authentically. Because until you know who you are, it’s impossible to believe in yourself, it’s impossible to have very much confidence, because you don’t know what you stand for. You don’t know what you’re about. So in order to become more authentic, it’s not about going out into the world and adding things to who you are. Instead, it’s about very gently and gradually stripping away things that don’t serve you anymore. So the voices of people who told you what who you are what you are taking those away, you know, little by little, I’ve tell myself, you don’t have to fit into every situation because I certainly haven’t clicked in in every possible situation. But instead of fitting in, think about the ways in which you stand out think about the ways in which are a little bit different, because it’s highly likely that some of those eccentricities, some of those quirks, and the very things that you could leverage, both personally and professionally. So think about the things that make you different and how you can highlight those, and use those to your advantage. And while thinking about yourself and your authenticity, think about how you speak to yourself, think about that little voice within you. Because very often you’re your own worst enemy, I would tell myself to have way more self compassion, way more empathy with what I’m going through. Because, well, you just thought that you know, you are enough, you’ll always be enough. And you deserve to have that self love. The second thing I’d say to myself, once you get a bit of an idea about who you are, I think about your my strengths, my talents, my interests and passions. Think about how gradually, they might all come together and then twice, so that I can serve myself and the rest of the world in my own unique way. I think about how that could play out. And if I’m not sure I tell myself, well just get out there. Just start speak to people make some contacts, you can learn so much and grow from other people’s experience. And when thinking about other people in the kind of jobs and lives they have, I think about who I envy the kind of lives I’d like to emulate. And thinking about the kind of work they do I think about what scares and what do I find a little bit scary. Because sometimes fear is really hiding desire, it’s concealing desire, and send that desire, it’s really an excitement of everything that could be. So I tell myself younger Lisa 21 year old Lisa, do something every day that scares you just a little bit, just so that you get used to that feeling so that you learn how to transform fear into excitement, because it really can be harnessed in that way and become very powerful David very final thing I was just going to add that to the younger Lisa, is what we were saying before you know that there it isn’t about a destination definitely isn’t about where you go. It’s about celebrating and enjoying the journey every step of the way. And in that knowing that the only thing you really need to aspire to do is constantly grow constantly become a better version of yourself, you know, make your goal to be constant self improvement growth, and keep curious and keep the learner beginner mindset. And then I don’t think you can ever go wrong. That’s all
David Ralph [53:08]
I have to say David that is perfect stuff in every shape or form. What’s the number one best way that our audience who have been listening to today can connect with you, Lisa?
Lisa Avery [53:17]
So they could go to my website, which is www dot? What is vocation all one word, what is vocation.com? And please feel free to get in touch if you’re interested in absolutely anything I’ve said it will be I love connecting with people. I love having these kind of conversation. So I would be delighted to connect with anybody. So
David Ralph [53:40]
that’s that’s the way David do. I will have all the links on the show notes. Lisa, thank you so much for spending time with us today joining those dots. And please come back again when you got more dots to join up. Because I do believe that by joining up the dots and connecting our past, it’s the best way to build our futures. Lisa Avery, thank you so much.
Lisa Avery [53:58]
Thank you so much David been an absolute pleasure and privilege thanks to you.
David Ralph [54:04]
Wow Lisa Avery, wasn’t she lovely? She was a bouncy light, like a bouncy Tigger. I like people like that I really sort of inspire me to be more enthusiastic and positive. I was really interested when she was saying, you know, if you don’t feel positive, just embrace that, you know, embrace those emotions. I don’t think I’m very good at that. I think I just covered over with bouncy enthusiasm. And sometimes very, very rarely, more often than not, I am like this anyway. But I’m very, very rare that you just want to sit there and leave me alone and stuff. And don’t shake for a couple of days. Maybe I should embrace that more. But maybe the world is used to me being this way. I don’t know. But it certainly made me think of things in a different way. And believe me, Lisa Avery is going to become she’s going to become part of the join up dots program. I’m sure so you will be hearing a lot more from Lisa, as we look at inspiring all you guys out there to go out and create your own lives, your dream lives, your businesses is that is my mission. I’m laying out in the line there for you a million people we are going to be focused on helping and I’m sure she’s going to be a big part of it. Until next time, thank you so much. Thank you so much for listening to join up dots and if we’re coming up to four years now four years of join up dots who can imagine it and I’m enjoying it more than I ever have. So hopefully you are as well and hopefully you will be here next time until that time. We’ll see you again. Cheers. See ya
David doesn’t want you to become a faded version of the brilliant self you are wants to become so he’s put together an amazing guide for you called the eight pieces of advice that every successful entrepreneur practices, including the two that changed his life. Head over to join up dots.com to download this amazing guide for free and we’ll see you tomorrow on join up dots.