Perry Marshall Joins Us On The Steve Jobs Inspired Join Up Dots Podcast
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Introducing Perry Marshall
Perry Marshall is my guest today, on the Steve Jobs inspired Join Up Dots free podcast interview.
He is an a man who Entrepreneur Magazine states, “This guy is the #1 author and world’s most-quoted consultant on Google Advertising.
He has helped over 100,000 advertisers save literally billions of dollars in AdWords stupidity tax.”
He is an author, speaker, engineer and world-renowned business consultant in Chicago.
And now with a decade of research, he brings a fresh perspective to the 150-year old evolution debate…..he brings about a very different view to what Darwin would have classed as fact.
How has he done this?
How The Dots Joined Up For Perry
How has he managed to dissect what the world has believed is fact?
Well in the same way as Bill Gates of Microsoft and the founders of Google revolutionized software and the Internet through their status as outsiders.
Similarly, our guest harnesses a communication engineer’s outsider’s perspective to reveal a century of unrecognized research and discoveries.
But this is just one part of what has brought him onto Join Up Dots, so who knows where today’s conversation will go?
So what made him start looking into the works of Charles Darwin, when the world has debated it openly for decades?
And does he now have his eyes on other areas of science and fact?
Well lets find out as we bring onto the show to start joining up dots with the one and only Mr Perry Marshall.
During the show we discussed such weighty topics with Perry Marshall such as:
How he came to the realisation that there was no way that he could punch the clock everyday, and just had to create his own path no matter how hard things would be in the future.
Perry remembers finding that the more he worked in his sweet spot the quicker he career took off, which surprisingly took him years to grasp the fact.
What made him decide that he could be the person to discount the theories of Charles Darwin, and even more so have the confidence to go forward and then present his works to the world.
We try to get Perry to score himself in the Evolution Olympics podium placings. Who would be number one Darwin or Marshall? You will have to listen to find out!
Perry Marshall Books
How To Connect With Perry Marshall
You can also check our extensive podcast archive by clicking here– enjoy
Full Transcription Of Perry Marshall Interview
When we’re young, we have an amazing positive outlook about how great life is going to be. But somewhere along the line we forget to dream and end up settling. Join Up Dots features amazing people who refuse to give up and chose to go after their dreams. This is your blueprint for greatness. So here’s your host live from the back of his garden in the UK. David Ralph.
David Ralph [0:33]
Yes. Good morning. Good morning. Good morning. Good morning, wherever you are. Thank you for being here today on Join Up Dots to listen to another motivational inspirational conversation or conversation can you have a conversation or conversation Well, we’re gonna have one today because today’s guy’s one of those guys that kind of thing. I don’t know which way to go with him because he’s got so many things on the go. He’s got a history back quiet. It’s a Wikipedia in itself. He’s a man who entreprenuer magazine states, this guy is the number one author and world’s most quoted consultant on Google advertising. He’s helped over 100,000 advertisers save literally billions of dollars in AdWords stupidity tax. He’s an author, speaker, engineer, and world renowned business consultant in Chicago. And now with a decade of research, he brings a fresh perspective to the hundred and 50 year old evolution debate. He brings about a very different view to what Darwin would have classed as fact. How has he done this? How has he managed to dissect what the world believes is bad? Well, in the same way as Bill Gates of Microsoft, and the founders of Google revolutionised software and the internet through their status as outsiders, he’s done the same. Similarly, our guest harnesses a communication engineers outsider’s perspective to reveal a century of unrecognised research and discovery. But this is just one part of what has brought him onto Join Up Dots so who knows where today’s conversation will go. So what made him start looking into the works of Charles Darwin when the world has debated it openly for decades. Does he now have he’s always on other areas of science and fact Well, let’s find out as we bring onto the show to start joining up dots with the one and only Mr. Perry Marshall. Good morning to you, Perry. How are you sir?
Perry Marshall [2:15]
It is great to be here and it’s afternoon in the UK and we’re pretending it’s 2am having a beer So, I don’t know what could be more perfect than that. I’m sure it’s like 2am and Guan, Jo or, or someplace like that right. So I’m really delighted to be here, David and we’re gonna have a fun time. It’s it’s gonna be different.
David Ralph [2:36]
Shall we be honest and say we’re not actually pretending we have opened the beers already. I’ve started in the afternoon, which is acceptable for drinking. But you’re an early morning drinker. Have you got a problem?
Well, you know a hot tidy when you’re starting to feel something come on is never a bad thing at seven o’clock in the morning. So if you can stop me Time now, well, I want to do I want to sort of cut to the chase with you, because you are one of these guys. I thought Blimey, I could have I had him on for six episodes. And we could create a different show every single time. Was it always on your radar to have such a sort of an eclectic background? Or is it just sort of occurred to you?
Perry Marshall [3:18]
Um, you know, I’ve always been interested in a lot of things and to me, to me, it’s not like I’m in to 16 different things to me, they’re all connected together to me at all. Like everything in life kind of runs on the same engine and, and the same set of principles. And, and so, um, but, you know, I gotta say, one of the big, big reasons that I became an entrepreneur, which is a hard road, right? I figured this out really quick. You know, when I was in Amway, and it wasn’t working. You know, like, this is not an easy path, but If I if I didn’t have the freedom to go and explore things I would suffocate. In fact, I, one of my longest ambitions was I always admired Isaac Newton for, you know, turning the world upside down with his discoveries. And I realised, probably before I was 20, though, the reason he was able to do that was he was from a rich family, and he didn’t have to be, you know, behind a plough, staring at the backside of some animal every day, he actually had some freedom to explore. And this is the only reason why we had an Isaac Newton. And I said, I got to create my own version of that. Now, I am not from a rich family and you know, nothing like that’s going to be happening, but how can I create enough space in my world where, you know, like, if I gotta wake up every morning, and just like, punch the clock and do whatever the boss tells you? Do I will mentally suffocate? So I think
David Ralph [5:05]
I’m gonna start preparing So how old were you when you had these thoughts? Were you always on the I’m gonna smash that alarm clock to pieces, or did it occur later.
Perry Marshall [5:15]
Um, it it really kind of snapped in place when I was about 16 to 20. I, I, I realised that if you if you apply yourself and work really hard, you really can get ahead and I kind of in a story I don’t have time to get get into somebody I met inspired me to take the ambitious route instead of the lazy route. And because really it would be much more rewarding. And so you know, I really bumped around quite for quite a long time before I started to get a sense of direction but I think I knew I knew by the time I was 20 or 21. Like you have to find a way to be able to make your life interesting. You You have to get some freedom. You have to.
David Ralph [6:12]
Yeah, but so many people don’t delay that, you know, we’re obviously come on to that later. But did you find the direction? By it seems to me, you’re somebody who who asks questions, and you’re a bit bloody minded, I would say as well. So you it was at your direction when you started challenging the status quo somewhat?
Perry Marshall [6:32]
Well, I’ve always been a little bit contrary and a little bit of a rabble rouser. But, but it took me a while to kind of figure out like, like, Dude, this is what you’re made to do. I had this friend in college, who he always got great grades and he and I worked at the same place for a while and in the bosses loved him and they were always having trouble with me. I mean, I really tried to do a good job, but I always Always coming up with some other idea about how to do things are like, No, we do it this way. And, you know, it’s like Why can’t I like just yeah, settle down and find a boring routine and make other people happy. But I later I started to understand like, no, you’re a trailblazer and trailblazers, don’t punch the card and make the boss happy. And you know, and I eventually got fired from five different jobs and you know, entrepreneurs gonna recognise this like oh yeah, you know, but but you’re you don’t know this when you’re 18 you but you you find out
David Ralph [7:38]
and then has it been a hard journey for you because I i coasted for many many years in the corporate gig, going to work getting paid for turning up and basically getting through to the end of the day when I could get out as soon as possible. And you can hide you can hide big time in corporate land, especially if you’ve got a manager who drinks which I fortunately was in London. More often No, I did. And so the afternoons you don’t have to sort of like hide in the morning, the afternoon, you could do what you want. So was it harder than you imagined when you decided to blaze your own trail?
Perry Marshall [8:12]
Yeah, it was, I thought it was gonna be quite a bit easier than it was. And in fact, I get to about age 28 or something. And I had been trying really hard at that point now for six or seven years, and I had really gotten nowhere. And I was extremely frustrated and like, all the failures and stuff was just dragging behind me like a ball and chain. Now really, I really just needed to stop doing some things and try something new. But But yeah, you know, that was hard in and then I would say during the next 10 years after that things really took off in a really wonderful way. But and why
David Ralph [8:59]
is he Why did he Take off then. Well often. So,
Perry Marshall [9:03]
first reason, the first reason was I actually started doing things that I was gifted to do instead of trying to be like other people that I admired who I was not. I started being in businesses that actually had a chance of succeeding, that it started with a sales job at a company where we were we were really at the right place at the right time with the right technology. And then I went on my own and I started being a marketing consultant. And I started teaching Google AdWords and it was right when that took off. And now this is a whole conversation that we don’t have time for today, but you know, I, I started I started finding what Richard Kosh calls star businesses. Yeah, if you go to star principle calm if you’re read Richards book, the star principle, it explains it. It’s really the idea that it’s It’s more about where you are the market you’re in and the opportunity you’re doing then it is about you yourself, your talents, your skills, which is a very contrarian way of looking at things. But, you know, I started doing things that were working but at the same time, you know, like, none of this was ever easy. It was like, like you. I, I’ve always found that I had to avail myself of absolutely the sharpest people the best resources. You know, I’ve always spent a tonne of money on my own personal education and development. In fact, this evolution 2.0 project, I would say over the last 12 years, I’ve spent three or $400,000 on this in a whole bunch of different ways.
You know, this is this is
you know, if you’re gonna be at the cutting edge of something, you know, you’re not just gonna stick a pencil behind your Here, it’s it’s gonna be an all consuming thing. But it’s so much more rewarding like, I can’t imagine hiding in a cubicle while my boss drinks I mean, that would just kill me.
David Ralph [11:13]
But let’s talk about evolution 2.0 because that amount of money to spend on something well, whenever people around you going Perry, you’re going mental me you’re going mental, you know, it’s 150 years of fact, and you’re spending all this money did anybody sort of try to warn you off?
Perry Marshall [11:32]
Well, sure. Um, and and, you know, part of the largest part of that money was on advertising. And it was for my website, cosmic fingerprints, calm and my approach to this was, as I started to figure stuff out, I would put my ideas on the web and I would invite anybody, anywhere and everywhere to come and play. found on them. And I was fully prepared that, look, if somebody comes and proves me wrong and something, then I will admit it, and I will acknowledge it and I will change my view. And that happened many, many times. But But I was driving traffic. I was building email lists, and I was starting conversations and I said, Look, if there’s any problem with what I’m saying, Here, somebody’s going to find out, and I will ignore no verifiable fact, and I don’t know where this is going. And truly, David, when I started, I did not know where this thing was going to go. This started when I was in southern China visiting my brother. My brother was an English teacher part of the time and a missionary part of the time he had graduated from seminary. He and I are pastors kids, we grew up in a deeply religious family and he was out like you know, doing all this stuff. And, and I, I was running my entrepreneurial world and doing my thing and I went to go see him in this argument that we had already been having for two years because he was slowly de converting. He was discarding all of his former beliefs and he was on his way to becoming an atheist. And he is very smart. He has a degree, a master’s degree in theology. And I, you know, we’ve spent our whole life like talking about these things. And yet again, we’re having like conversation number 162. About You know, I don’t really believe all this, and I found myself retreating to science, because I’m an engineer, and I said to him, and then that it turned out to be very important, like, a lot of times, you don’t really know where your roots are until you get backed into a corner. Um, and and, and I said to Brian, I said, look at the hand At the end of the year arm, I said, that is a fine piece of engineering. And nobody disagrees with that. Right? Okay with that. And I said, you don’t actually think this is an accumulation of random accidents, do you? And he’s like, hold on buddy. And he was ready with a standard Darwinian, like, right out of the textbook kind of an answer.
David Ralph [14:28]
And what was what was this this because I’ve got so many things in my head at the moment. So what was his?
Perry Marshall [14:34]
Okay, so here’s what he said. He said, Perry. Listen. Okay, let’s say we’re talking about Falcons. And let’s say you got a billion Falcons flying around and let’s say you got a billion years like that’s a lot of Falcons. Right Perry? And I’m like, yeah, and he goes, Okay, so, don’t just think that once in a while, there’s going to be some accidental mutation in the Falcons. DNA in some of the time, it’s going to be better, not worse. And then the eyes are better and it can hunt or the wings are better and it can fly. And it’s going to get better and better and you don’t need a designer. And I’m like, Well, I don’t know. I you know, I realised that actually does sound plausible, but I’m not really sure it sounds totally
David Ralph [15:25]
plausible. It sounds 100%. So if you were lucky, I wasn’t in the room with you, sir.
Perry Marshall [15:31]
Well, okay. And so I might end might remember, I’m an engineer. And as an engineer, I had never, as an engineer, seen what he described actually happen. Okay, but here’s what I did know. What I didn’t know is most biologists would agree with him and not me. I knew that. And I’m like, Okay, I got an electrical engineering degree. I do not Have a biology degree they could be right I could be wrong. It violates my intuition. I could I could give you a list of a dozen things in engineering that completely violate your intuition but they’re still true. I could be wrong. I don’t know. I’m gonna find out and I resolved to find out I said I am going to find out. And if it makes me an atheist, I’m going to go chase it down. Like whatever, you know, ignore no verifiable facts. So I plunged myself into the void and probably like most people that come on your show, I’m just a little bit obsessive.
David Ralph [16:38]
Yeah, I don’t know.
Unknown Speaker [16:40]
Yeah, so like, you’re gonna
David Ralph [16:42]
tell me otherwise I can get this feeling already sir.
Perry Marshall [16:46]
Amazon stock is going up because I’m buying all these books about evolution and everything and reading all these websites and watching all these videos and you know, digging deep and and, and for a while. I I am just, I am really not sure. Like, I go to the left and I read the left side. And that kind of makes sense. And then they go to the right and, and then they kind of make sense. And they’re talking past each other for the most part. And they’re calling each other names. And, you know, it’s just oh my goodness is so confusing, but because of some projects that I worked on in engineering school, I knew exactly like exactly what it’s like, when you’ve actually got something figured out and you’re on solid ground. And I knew what it’s like when you when you have a theory that doesn’t really work very well. And then you’re just trying to duct tape it all together. I knew what that felt like and too, and so I knew what I was looking for. And so I just started going and you know, I guess to make a really long story short, what I found was neither side is really telling you what’s going on. The truth is really somewhere in the middle. Charles Darwin himself was actually more right than wrong. But the people who came about 50 years after him, massively botched his theory and basically turned it into a pop religion. And that the real story of evolution is way more fascinating than anything that you read in a freshman biology book. And in really evolution as understand as understood at the PhD level and experimentally practice is completely different than the pop religion doc and Richard Dawkins kind of version that you hear about on the radio or read about in most blog posts and so I really Eventually stumbled on to the biggest untold story in the history of science.
David Ralph [19:07]
Why I normally play motivational speeches through my show, but I’m gonna throw it out the window today, this is gonna be a totally different show because the question that I want to ask is really to your state of mind, you know, if somebody said to me, right, I want you to go and discount Darwin’s theory, I would think really hundred and 50 years it’s been out there he’s probably right. What What was it about you that thought that you could sort of overturn it because it’s, it’s kind of out there. It’s like the Bible isn’t it is like, it’s just kind of fact that whether it’s right or wrong, we all believe it. We all believe that we come from monkeys. And we end up as we are, although my son always says to me, if we all we all come from monkeys, why are there still monkeys? And I?
Perry Marshall [19:55]
Like that’s like saying, um, you know, If, if we all come from hospitals, why are there walking clinics? You know, that’s
David Ralph [20:07]
nothing like that. So is it?
Perry Marshall [20:09]
Right? It’s like, Well, you know, if if Starbucks evolved, then why is there? Why is there a Panera Bread like, well, because the world wants diversity, okay. And I want you to understand I’m really not overthrowing Darwin’s theory so much as kind of fixing it a little bit. Okay. Okay. And I want to be really clear about this. And in fact, you know, I know that there’s people like on all points along the religious spectrum here, and I would say that what I found is more friendly to both science and religion than the versions that you usually hear in the media. Okay. In fact, I think, I think the I think the The the choices that you’re given in the evolution debate right now like, Oh, you could be a six day creationist or you could be a Richard Dawkins fan. You know, that’s sort of like choosing between Trump and Hillary, like most people think they’re both dreadful. Okay. Yeah. And in so and but you asked me and I think this is motivational by the way. I mean, it’s it’s it’s a little heady maybe but, but this is very motivational is the question of, well, why should like a regular guy who’s got an engineering degree and he’s working as a business consultant think that, that he can come to a significantly different conclusion about, you know, 150 year old accepted scientific theory and actually be certain that he’s right. And how could he be certain that like, perhaps maybe, a bunch of biologists might be wrong And in the answer is math. The answer is verifiable facts. Really, for me, it came down to math and and in in it said, Okay, if it’s really true that you know, an accidental mutation in the Falcons DNA is gonna make the eyesight better from time to time, then there’s got to be some math behind that, that that says how often that’s going to be true. And so I was floating around for a while going, I have not touched the bottom of swimming pool. I cannot figure this out. I have not found anything solid I can grab on to I just got the swirl of sort of kind of facts floating around. Well, here here’s what happened. I had a giant epiphany one day, I was trying to figure out DNA mutations. Okay, how does DNA work? How does this genetic code work and all of that, and and I was reading something and boom, I had this flash of recognition. Oh, I get it now. And here’s what it was. So David in 2002, I wrote a book called industrial Ethernet. And I wrote it for the is a, which is the largest professional society for process control engineers. And when I wrote that I was working in that industry. And that book is then it went in second edition and it’s coming out in third edition next year. And I have a co author named john Rinaldi and my book was here is how the ones and zeros go across the wire because I worked in industrial network for six years. And I suddenly realised Wait a minute, DNA is digital code. It’s four letters instead of two. So instead of one and zero, it’s ACGT. In it has the same structure as all the other kinds of things. data that I’ve already been dealing with all my life. It’s like Ethernet. It’s like TCP IP. It’s digital code. Okay? It’s like HTML. It’s like PHP. It’s like, okay, yeah, I’m
David Ralph [24:13]
with you on this. Yep.
Perry Marshall [24:15]
Now, this makes it come, all the sudden, everything just snapped into sharp focus, because all of the rules of codes apply. And here’s what that meant. So let’s talk about Falcons. If you’re going to say that a falcon evolved by a random copying error, that would be exactly like saying that I’m gonna send an email blast to 100,000 people. And, and I’m not, I’m not going to have a whole bunch of error correction and detection and in mistake Checking in my Ethernet hubs and routers and switches and everything in so everybody’s going to get a slightly different corrupted version of the email. And 1% of the time or one time in 100,000, my email is going to be better, not worse. Well, in it that never happens, like never. And it’s because digital code is extremely fragile, extremely fragile. So, random mutations are noise and noise destroys signals, noise always destroys signals, it never makes them better. Now, this if I just stopped there, and I did not go any further, then I would conclude that evolution is impossible, but I didn’t stop there. All the creation is stopped there and they said therefore, evolution is a hoax. But I kept looking, because I was reading all of this other books. geology literature and I was seeing that evolution clearly happens. And I started looking for more things, I started looking for things that that fit within digital communication theory, but still explain what was going on with living organisms. And so this is where I started uncovering the real story. So so let me tell you a couple of examples of this. Very recently, there’s a little YouTube video on my website about this, the University of Reading in the UK, okay, place it they did this experiment where they had they had these bacteria and bacteria have tails. They’re called flagella and they spin around like a helicopter and they propel them so they can swim around and eat. And what the researchers did was they deleted the genes for the flagella so They didn’t have tails in four days, the bacterias genetic regulatory networks, hyper mutated and rebuilt the genes for the tails and they grew tails and started swimming. Right,
David Ralph [27:19]
right. Right. Okay. And right. So summarise that in kind of layman’s terms, how does that tie up with your, your discovery then?
Perry Marshall [27:28]
Well, so the the organisms evolve their own DNA in real time. Okay, so like if if, if I said to you, David, do you think that was an accident? Do you think that tail just accidentally popped in place? What would you say?
David Ralph [27:52]
Well, no, but I could probably gave you 100 different other examples of animals that put in that situation would have done something totally different.
Perry Marshall [28:00]
Well, right, and the point is, is there isn’t any one thing that’s going to do. But what they do is they try stuff. And when they try stuff, what they’re actually doing is they’re rearranging code. And think of it. I mean, it any internet marketer can can relate to this. I’ve got these six landing pages, and I get the landing page, and it’s not working. And I’m spending. I’m spending $30 on Google to get $3 of sales back and I’m drowning. So what do you do you try stuff and you’re like, well, let’s change the picture. Let’s change the headline. Let’s move this around. Let’s change the shopping cart. Let’s change the ad. Right? You do all this stuff? And you it’s kind of frantic, right? It’s like, and then and then you find something. Oh my goodness. You know, we we switched all this stuff around. And I went from putting $30 in and getting $3 out to Putting $30 in and getting $40 out, I go from losing money to making money. And what are you doing? You’re hyper mutating. You’re you’re going, you’re taking everything you know everything that you can think to do. You’re reading all these books are looking at all these examples of what other people did you go, hey, let’s try this. Let’s try this. Let’s try this. Well, this is how evolution actually works at a cellular level. And a lady named Barbara McClintock figured this out in 1944. She started hitting corn plants with radiation and damaging the chromosomes and she was she was very precise in exactly how she was doing it in the plant completely surprised her. The plant, basically disassembled the chromosome, rearranged it, put it back together, repaired the damage, came up with a new configuration that she had never seen before in any other plant. And when I to reproduce and repaired the damage. And her colleagues at the time thought she was crazy. She presented it and they just kind of laughed her out of the place. And she won the Nobel Prize in 1983 for transposition. And so David, what’s really going on is that every organism in the world is actively adapting to its environment based on hundreds of signals, and factors all the time. And these organisms do I mean, they don’t necessarily know what is going to work, but they try stuff. And so and so evolution in biology works pretty much the same way it works in business or jazz or art or movies or politics or any sphere of human endeavour. It’s It’s chaos resolved by intent and experimentation. Is this
David Ralph [31:02]
just slowly down here just so I can get it in my head. So what we’re saying is that the, the animals are more derived from their environments more than actually some kind of fluke. So an error that has occurred naturally so if I took a load of Falcons and I put them in a room, which is just iron floor, I NC the iron wall, just a total iron block, and then I put another load of Falcons in one that’s got a nice beach on there with natural sunlight, and another bunch of Falcons in another room that’s got a totally different kind of setup, I would get different functions, is that what we’re saying?
Perry Marshall [31:41]
Yes, and it doesn’t happen just like randomly by accident, and eventually by chance. It’s an active process, which switches in gear when organisms are under stress and so, so I was just at a conference in London, November 7. eight and nine at the Royal Society, which I think you know is the oldest scientific organisation in the world. And it was called new paradigms in evolutionary biology. And one of the researchers got up and explained that she did these experiments with these plants where she took all these identical plants and she put half of them in in bright light and half of them in dim light. The bright light ones grew skinny leaves because they don’t, there was plenty of light, they don’t need a lot of surface. And then the plants in the dark room grew wide fat leaves that catch a lot more light. Well, then they they took the offspring and they planted them in immediately the offspring of the of the highlight plants grew skinny leaves and the offspring of the low light plants grew families. Just Like their parents, and if you looked at them side by side, they look like different species. But literally the plant in one generation said, I’m in a low light environment I need big fat leaves in my offspring need big fat leaves. And so the signals were epigenetically switched in the offspring immediately the very next generation. Okay, you’re going to need to survive in a low light environment. Now 200 years ago, a guy named Lamarck came up with a very similar theory. And Darwin accepted that theory in the 1930s. They completely threw that out. They said, there’s no way that can happen. There’s no way living things are that smart. It just happens by accident. And it turns out that they were wrong about that for 70 years.
David Ralph [33:51]
So So who’s right because it seems to me listening to you that you’re right and Darwin’s right. It’s just that you’ve got the ability to take the information and science Typically kind of alternate, where Darwin was looking at things in his natural environment. So it’s very difficult to get a load of Falcons and put them in different rooms. He was just seeing how he operated.
Perry Marshall [34:11]
Well, right. We know so much more than Darwin did. I mean, Darwin’s book origin of species is really just a, it gives you a basic rudimentary sketch of an idea of where species come from. He didn’t actually figure out where species come from, even though his title is Origin of Species. And I don’t know if we have time to get into that. But like he is far as he was able to get. He was basically about right. Okay. But he didn’t know anything about genetics. He didn’t know anything about molecular biology. He didn’t know anything about codes. And so when you get to the 30s and 40s most most scientists got on The track of what’s called Neo Darwinism which made a bunch of assumptions, which were mostly wrong. And then they just swept every time they didn’t understand something, they would sweep it under a rug called chance and natural selection, chance and natural selection. That’s how everything we get explained. But there was this other path that a minority of scientists went on. They said, No, I don’t buy that. And, and like I could tell you the names of all these people. And but the minority view that other path that that started in 30s and 40s, those people became the redheaded stepchildren of evolutionary biology. They received very little funding, very little recognition. But what has now happened in the 21st century, is all of their discoveries have turned out to be really, really important. And this conference I was at the whole question of the three day conference was can we Extend the 1930s and 40s version or do we have to completely throw it out and start over? That is literally what the conference was about.
David Ralph [36:08]
If he showed he can just extend it, you’ve got all that information now is only a controlled environment, isn’t
Perry Marshall [36:14]
it? Well, you can extend Darwin’s version. But the the 1940s version added so many wrong assumptions that you have to get it. It’s like you have to strip the engine down to the engine blocks and start over. Really, David, like, if you read a Richard Dawkins book about evolution, somewhere between one third and two thirds of everything he tells you is actually wrong and misleading. It is that bad. In fact, you will not learn anything substantially correct about evolution reading Richard Dawkins or Jerry Coyne? No, no, I have to qualify that. I have to be Very careful what what I’m saying here. They tell you a lot of most of the data they give you is correct. Most of the interpretation they give you is completely wrong. They assume in the whole basic assumption of the 1940s version was that it’s random and accidental. The alternate path was no, the cells are sensing and adjusting constantly in real time. They are cutting splicing, rearranging their DNA. So like for example, a cell under stress, can splice its DNA into thousands of pieces, rearrange its DNA, and suddenly begin to be able to digest a nutrient that it could not digest before, and this will happen in hours. This is why you have to finish your antibiotics because if you don’t kill those bugs, they be they evolve into superbugs, and they evolve into superheroes. In real time, because they’re trying to, they are trying to fight the antibiotic. And so they’ll find a way to do it. So it’s, it’s, it’s just like, you know, you put, you put 1000 marketers on the internet, and 100 of them are gonna make millions of dollars and 900 of them are gonna starve to death. They’re all trying. But none of what they’re trying is truly accidental. Does that make sense?
David Ralph [38:26]
Well, it does. It makes total sense to me. And I’ll be honest with you, Perry, when I started, I was sort of well, all the way through them devil’s advocate. I lean more towards you and Mr. Darwin. But my question that is going to be posed to you now is, if my brain can comprehend what you’re saying, and actually before you started mentioning environment and that kind of manipulation of genetics because of that environment, why did it take so long for other people or for you to figure this out? It seems to me very It’s it’s kind of obvious,
Perry Marshall [39:01]
isn’t it? Well, it sure is, if you’re an engineer, and
David Ralph [39:06]
I’m not an engineer, I’m just looking at it thinking, well, I can understand that if I, if I was out in the sun all the time, that my skin is gonna get tougher to sort of protect me if I was in water for a long time my skin is going to change because of the environment that I’m in.
Perry Marshall [39:22]
Well, yes, and actually see, we’re all used to this, you know, you cut your hand open in the morning making toast and you put a bandaid on it. And two weeks later, it’s all healed up. And, you know, we take that for granted. But as an engineer, if you put on your engineering hat, you go, Well, you know, if I scratch my card, the scratch doesn’t go away after two weeks. And, you know, so like, if as an engineer, you look at this and you go, Well, good grief, like what is going on in biology that we don’t even know how to do and see the fact that As we don’t know, is we we can observe that, that those bacteria at Reading University of Reading, they rebuilt those genes in four days. And we can see that they do it. But there isn’t a software engineer in the world that knows how to how to write self repairing self writing code that restores itself, like that way, like the technology of living things, if, as it were, is light years beyond human technology. And really, it raises a bunch of uncomfortable big questions that are kind of politically incorrect. And, and so the easy way to sweep them under the rug is to go Oh, well, you know, if you have enough time and chance that all just kind of takes care of itself through natural selection, and see that’s what most people think Darwin achieved is that Darwin expected And all this? Well, he didn’t really explain anything. He just observed something that demanded even more explanation. And again, if you’re, you know, if you’re a software programmer, you can appreciate this. You know, so what I always say is I say to people, I want you to imagine to David did back in the day. Did you use dos? Like the old operating system?
David Ralph [41:25]
Yeah, absolutely, yes.
Perry Marshall [41:27]
Okay, so imagine that Bill Gates and his friends came up with dos in 1981. And I want you to imagine that ever since 1981, no human programmer ever touched it. Okay, that, you know, there’s no payroll in Redmond, Washington. And none of that. Let’s say imagine that DOS, by being responsive to its environment. It grew a web browser. It grew a Windows desktop. It grew Excel, it grew word. It grew antivirus. It developed in it constantly adjusted in real time. So that 35 years later, you have Windows 10. And let’s say that dos did it itself.
Unknown Speaker [42:16]
Would you be impressed?
David Ralph [42:19]
I mean, I would have noticed, to be honest, it would have been so subtle, but yeah, I would be impressed by it could no would I be impressed? No, I think I would just take it for granted.
Perry Marshall [42:28]
Well, but what compared to what Bill Gates like compared to having 10,000 software engineers on the payroll, would you be impressed if if he could write a programme that could self adapt, self adjust? Like, would you go like, Oh my goodness, how did you do that? Yes, I would,
David Ralph [42:45]
yes. In answer to that. Yes, I would.
Perry Marshall [42:48]
Okay, so that, that when I talk to religious groups, this is what I say. I say, you know, people have been taught that either. It’s either God or Darwin. Well, hang on a second. If we have a programme that can self evolve, self adapt, if you can start with a single cell and end up with a million species and all the flora and fauna and the entire earth and all the beautiful things we got, if that happens naturally, by 20 473 65 adaptation to the environment, like is the world we live in even more impressive than even thought it was when some people convince you Well, this just happens by time and chance. That doesn’t happen by time and chance like you would never say, oh dice evolved into Windows in 35 years buy time and chance? Well, the only way you could get it to is is that it would have to react to chance, a chance occurrences in the environment in some kind of specific strategic way, which this is exactly what is actually happening with viruses and antibiotics. And germs and your immune system. It’s all all of nature is in an arms race all the time. And it’s unbelievable. how sophisticated is it’s absolutely Mind blown.
David Ralph [44:12]
So what does the world think now about evolution? 2.0 are you are you looked at as a visionary or a lunatic berry?
Unknown Speaker [44:21]
Perry Marshall [44:24]
the answer is go look at the Amazon reviews and 80% visionary 20% lunatic. I mean literally that I mean that is that is what you will see there are
David Ralph [44:36]
a lot of scientific people well about a scientist scientists of the world that you’re going to these conferences with, I’m a looking at you as somebody that has has solved a riddle that they needed to solve it.
Perry Marshall [44:46]
Well, you know, I am not the solver like there isn’t anything in evolution 2.0 that is original to me. Other than the technical knology Prize which I can get into in a minute, everything in that book was already in the literature. I just dug it up. Now, evolution 2.0 was released in September 2015. I went to this conference in November 2016. And I’m about half of what they talk talked about in the conference was all in my book. Now, my book is the first book ever written in plain English. That like a high school student can understand that explains this other path that the minority of scientists have taken. So it’s people like Barbara McClintock and Lynn Margulis and Eva Blanca, James Shapiro, this, this research has all been there. But frankly, you know, it’s it’s a more complicated story than you know. Richard Dawkins blind Why? watchmaker and it takes more work for people to wrap their heads around. But like if, like we’re doing revisions for a paperback version, and there is almost nothing that I’m changing in the book because it’s all it’s all correct. A Darwin did a good job, didn’t
David Ralph [46:16]
they? When you look back, he had no YouTube, he had nothing. He was just him sort of thinking things through. He was Yes, Darwin,
Perry Marshall [46:24]
Darwin did a very admirable job for his time. Now, I would I would criticise him for not giving other people enough credit. A lot of people have been talking about there was there was a number of other people that he got a lot of his ideas from, and he didn’t really give them credit. However, he his theory for the time and for what they knew at the time was pretty good. What happened in the 20th century is a bunch of people took his theory bastardise it made it worse, and turned it into a pop religion and so like, you know, the There’s a whole bunch of card carrying, quote unquote Darwinists out there, beating the evolution drum and Darwin would be horrified to see what they’ve done. Because, you know, Darwin was if you if you read his writings, he was always questioning himself. He was always a little bit provisional in the way he presented things. He’s like, you know, I’m not quite sure if this is right, there might be this problem. There might be this problem, but I think this is how it works. He was always like that. The people that came after him are basically fundamentalists. They’re like, it’s absolutely this way. And it’s absolutely like this, and a lot of what they’re telling you is just wrong.
David Ralph [47:43]
So we’re coming to the end of the show now and I suppose the question would be in the evolution Olympics, and as a podium with one and two and three. Where would you be standing compared to Darwin? And was it Dawkins?
Perry Marshall [47:59]
Oh, darn. Dawkins? Well, you know, Dawkins is, Dawkins is on his way out. Scientists consider him irrelevant and really kind of annoying. his, his name came up one time at that conference I was at. So it’s kind of like, Well, you know, there’s the version that’s fed to the general public in the feed trough. But this is not really how it works at all. Um, you know, I, look, I’m not a hero in this, um, you know, I’m just, I’m just the guy that wrote a book that explains it. To the regular public. The real heroes are a handful of scientists. Lynn Margulis, Barbara McClintock, James Shapiro, Dennis Noble. They have, I mean, they’ve done the heavy lifting, and they’ve really figured this stuff out. And the new view is replacing the old view At the PhD level, and it’s just slowly trickling down to the general public, but I’m telling you, it is so amazing what cells do what your body does what your immune system does. It leaves you just absolutely in awe and wonder at the sophistication.
David Ralph [49:20]
So on the podium, are you looking up at Darwin or looking down at Darwin? Are you one or two?
Perry Marshall [49:25]
Oh, well, I’m looking. Well, I’m looking up. You know, we all stand on the shoulders of giants
David Ralph [49:32]
have known a podium do because the number one person’s the highest? This is what I’m trying to get to where where are you putting yourself sir?
Perry Marshall [49:39]
Oh, dear. You know, I don’t even like the question, honestly. I mean, it’s like, boy, that just makes me really uncomfortable. I just, I just, I see myself as the guy that uncovered the biggest untold story in the history of science and I’ve done my absolute best job to tell it and And what? Let me tell you a quick story. I, I gave a presentation last year to a group of conservative Christian evangelical homeschool kids. Okay. Yeah. And so, you know, generally creationist kind of viewpoints and stuff. So the lady that organised this, just before the meeting, there’s this flurry of phone calls and emails, like, what’s this guy going to teach to our kids? So I give this presentation, I explained all this stuff about how cells work. I read them the first chapter of Genesis and I actually explained you know what, this actually matches pretty well. If you just make a couple of other assumptions. In its I give give this presentation when I got done first of all, nobody was horrified. Nobody argued with me and About half of them sat around in a circle and they pummelling me with intense curious questions for two hours after the meeting, especially the parents, like I thought the parents would be angry at me for saying no, it’s not really like the Six Day creation thing. It’s really this other way. They were fascinated. And, and this is the kind of reaction that I get if you read the Amazon reviews, you’ll see people going, Oh, my word. I never thought of it this way. And I mean, this is exactly how I felt when I started really seeing what goes on. I was just floored.
David Ralph [51:42]
So we’re not gonna get an answer on the podium.
Perry Marshall [51:45]
Oh, I noticed. You know, it’s it’s not we’re not even on the same podium. Like I, I’m not a science researcher. I have the science. I have the ability to understand and do science because I’m electrical engineer and I do science experiments all the time, scientific advertising. You know, I mean, that’s, that’s a branch of science. But But really, I have this much different job, which is, you know, taking this massive amount of information that’s out there and actually making sense of it. And I really so let me give you a different podium. I would I hear you let’s let’s do the podium a little different. I’m going to, I’m going to put Charles Darwin, Barbara McClintock and Lynn Margulis on the podium, and I’m going to I’m going to say that McClintock was actually number one, Darwin was number two, and Margulis was number three, because McClintock did more to actually figure out what’s going on under the hood than anybody else. I think she was the greatest biologist of all time. I would frame it that way and then over on a completely different podium, you have people that are explaining this to the public. And you know, right now Richard Dawkins is king, but in 20 years, he will have no legacy because his version is almost completely wrong in in the fine details,
David Ralph [53:19]
and it will be Perry Marshall that gets the applause
Unknown Speaker [53:25]
There we go. I quoted you.
Unknown Speaker [53:26]
David Ralph [53:26]
if my layman’s brain couldn’t keep up with what you’re explaining there, and it did, I had to focus, as I say on that show, I think I think yours has got to be right. It seems logical to me, it seems logical that it’s a response to environment more than sort of a random acts, it just seems logical. Well, I’ll tell you what I’m gonna do totally different to bring the show to the end. Normally, we send you back in time to have a one on one with your younger self, but this time, I’m going to be sending you back on the Sermon on the mic 150 years to meet the young Charles Darwin and you got the opportunity to give him your words of wisdom that you have picked up now, so totally different. I’m gonna play the theme tune when it fade. You’re up. You’re in a room with Charles, let’s have a conversation. This is the Sermon on the mind. We go
Unknown Speaker [54:21]
with the best bit of the show,
Unknown Speaker [54:27]
Unknown Speaker [54:29]
Perry Marshall [54:38]
So, Mr. Darwin, I want to commend you for seeing that, that there’s actually a possibility that all life goes back to a single source rather than each individual species being You know, in an instantaneous creation, but Mr. Darwin, I want you to ask yourself some questions. And I want you to ask yourself how does how do these changes and variations? Where do they actually come from? And so if I, if I could go back in time and, you know, take a few things with me, I would take
Unknown Speaker [55:25]
Perry Marshall [55:27]
photographs in YouTube videos of what actually goes on inside a cell. And I would say, Well, you know, at the base of life is these cells, and they’re not just like little blobs of jelly. Every single one of them is a fantastically amazing nano machine that is more sophisticated than New York City. And they have the ability to respond to threats in real time that they cut, splice, edit, rearrange. their DNA. And if we spend the next hundred and 50 years trying to understand how they do that in what is it that they know about themselves, then this whole scientific endeavour is going to go away faster than somebody assuming. Well, it just happened by accident. That’s what I would say to Charles Darwin. Brilliant stuff.
David Ralph [56:24]
And for the listeners, what’s the number one best way that our audience can connect with you, Perry?
Perry Marshall [56:29]
Um, you can go to cosmic fingerprints, calm and you can get three free chapters of evolution 2.0 you can buy it on Amazon. And since David, a lot of your audience or, you know, entrepreneurs, business people, marketers, there is a set of online bonuses that come with the book. So you start reading the book, and there’s links inside the book and you can go sign up and you can get those and I’ve incorporated I’ve taken pieces of my online courses that were inspired by evolutionary thinking. And I’ve made them free to book buyers. And these are very useful. Especially if you do Google and Facebook advertising I, I took a but a bunch of ideas that I stole from evolutionary biology and the tools that sells us to evolve. And I adapted to them to marketing and advertising. And let’s just put it this way there is there is one talk that that is free with the book. I did a seminar in Maui. That was $3,000 I had a guy fly all the way from Australia and he said, I listened to that one talk in it and I earned back the flights and in the cost of the seminar in the first hour. That talk is free to Buyers the evolutionary evolution 2.0 books so there’s there’s applications for business audiences to this isn’t just, you know, science, science. It’s, it’s it’s very useful and applicable in real life,
David Ralph [58:15]
right stuff. And we will have all the links in the show notes. Perry, thank you so much for spending time with us today. joining up those dots. And please come back again, when you have more dots to join up because I do believe that by joining up the dots and connecting our past is the best way to build our futures. Perry Marshall. Thank you so much,
Perry Marshall [58:33]
David, thank you for having me on Join Up Dots. And I want to commend you for like, I think life is a mission of Join Up Dots. And so you really get it and it’s an honour to be on your show. Thank you.
David Ralph [58:47]
Thanks very much, Perry. So which side of the fence Do you sit on? Do you sit on Perry Marshall side or do you sit on Darwin’s side interesting show that totally different from what I was expecting to record but that’s what I love about Join Up Dots You know, it just it randomly happens or not random it happens because of the environment but I put the show into you see, you see what I did there it links up to that programme. Thank you so much for listening to that. Thank you so much for listening to Perry. And we will be back again very, very shortly with another episode of Join Up Dots speak again, cheers probably
David doesn’t want you to become a faded version of the brilliant self you or wants to become. So he’s put together an amazing guide for you called the eight pieces of advice that every successful entrepreneur practices, including the two that changed his life. Head over to Join Up dots.com to download this amazing guide for free and we’ll see you tomorrow on Join Up Dots.