Jeanine Cerundolo Joins Us On The Steve Jobs Inspired Join Up Dots Podcast
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Introducing Jeanine Cerundolo
Jeanine Cerundolo is our guest today joining us on the Steve Jobs inspired Join Up Dots podcast interview.
She is one of the founding members of the Higher Purpose Project, which we have discussed with our previous guests Ginger Kern and Dan Adams.
A powerful collection of individuals that have taken it on themselves to create a platform for dreamers, high achievers and goal setters, to channel their passions and overcome their fears.
With a tagline of “Be Your Own Hero” the project is going from strength to strength as the world wakes up to what can be achieved if we only take action.
How The Dots Joined Up For Jeanine
But this is just one part of what Jeanine Cerundolo fills her time with, as not just in group situations but individually through coaching, workshop facilitating, and self development she helps others to identify their true path in life and grab hold of the life that they deserve.
But how does she do this?
How does she find the key to the lock, where others have been looking for that key all their life?
Well let’s bring onto the show to start joining up dots, as we discuss the words of Steve Jobs with the one and only Jeanine Cerundolo
During the show we discussed such weighty subjects with Jeanine Cerundolo such as:
How the film “Finding Joe” changed not just her life, but that of her brother who watched it nine times and then quit his job and moved across the country!
How fear can be a compass to the path we should be heading for!
How there is no such thing as arriving!
How we can project forward to build our dots into stepping stones!
The deep questions:”Who Am I?”, “What Do I Do?”, and “How Do I Want To Get There?”
How as a child she loved to write, and finds the same bliss in doing it now as a living!
How To Connect With Jeanine Cerundolo
If you enjoyed this episode with Jeanine Cerundolo then why not listen to some of our favourite podcast episodes such as John Lee Dumas, JB Glossinger, Hal Elrod, or the amazing John Williams
Or if you prefer just pop over to our podcast archive for thousands of amazing episodes to choose from.
Audio Transcription Of Jeanine Cerundolo Interview
When we’re young, we have an amazing positive outlook about how great life is going to be. But somewhere along the line we forget to dream and end up settling. Join Up Dots features amazing people who refuse to give up and chose to go after their dreams. This is your blueprint for greatness. So here’s your host live from the back of his garden in the UK, David Ralph.
David Ralph [0:26]
Yes, hello to all my listeners out there in internet land. Do you know it’s quite exciting, I am now coming live to 152 countries in the world, it blows my mind. It literally does. I didn’t know there was 152 countries out there. But you’re all listening in. And you are getting involved with the show. And it’s, it’s it’s amazing. So thank you so, so much. It’s the 15th of July today. And so we’ve been going for coming up three months now. And the key thing is we’re we’re sort of over halfway through the year. Now, if you’ve got any goals, any targets any plans for this year, get your body into gear because you’re running out of time. And we’ve got a perfect guest today to really kick you into shape. And make sure that you hit your higher purpose, because our guest today is one of the founding members of the higher purpose project, which we have discussed with our previous guests, Ginger Cohen and Dan Adams, who you can go back and listen to. Now these guys are a powerful collection of individuals that have taken upon themselves to create a platform for dreamers, high achievers and goal setters to channel their passions and overcome their fears with a tagline of Be your own hero. The project is going from strength to strength as the world wakes up to what can be achieved if we only take action. But this is just one part of what this lady feels her time with as not just in group situations. But individually through coaching workshop, facilitating and self development. She helps others to identify their true path in life and grab hold of the life that they deserve. But how does she do this? How does she find the key to the lock? Well, others have been looking for that key all their life. Well, let’s find out about this, the higher purpose project and of course by starting Join Up Dots with the one and only Jeanine Cerundolo. Hello. How are you today?
Jeanine Cerundolo [2:19]
I’m great. How are you? David
David Ralph [2:21]
did on the Janine kind of told me how to say her name. And I did I overcook it.
Jeanine Cerundolo [2:27]
Right now. I loved it. It was so much passion. It’s Italian so could be chillin though, and you said it perfectly. I love it.
David Ralph [2:33]
Well, as you opinions we we just know how to wrap our tongue man the strange word or two.
Jeanine Cerundolo [2:40]
Wonderful. I’m so pleased to be here. Thank you for having me, David, great introduction. No, it’s a delight.
David Ralph [2:45]
Because your your other colleagues, ginger and Dan have both been on the show. And I feel really is a kindred spirit. Because we’re all trying to channel the same energy across the world. And you’re doing it very much by group scenario having people come to you having seminars and summits where these high achievers joined forces over a period of two or three days. And of course, I’m trying to do it by just blasting the words of the motivational and the conversational across the globe. But there’s not that much difference between the two. Is it in essence?
Jeanine Cerundolo [3:20]
Absolutely not. And I think that part of both of what you’re doing at what we’re doing actually boils down to individual Connexions, like the one that you and I are having and that everyone at these in the groups in the facilitated process, they’ll eventually just have a conversation with one person and one statement will blow their mind or open their heart. And I think that’s what really makes a difference is those those one on one interactions as well. So I think that’s the key foundation to get them together in the larger scale.
David Ralph [3:48]
Do you think life is about making Connexions?
Jeanine Cerundolo [3:52]
Oh, yes, I actually have a little quote on a tissue box that holds different things, not tissues. And it says part of my purpose that says I live and love to connect deeply with myself others and source energy, that’s just my word for that. Kind of like, inner inner, what gets you going the enthusiasm behind your voice? For example, that source energy? So connexion is the name of my game, and then I absolutely love it.
David Ralph [4:19]
We don’t get two questions. Number one is what’s in that box? Now? There’s no tissues? That’s intriguing.
Jeanine Cerundolo [4:26]
Yeah, it’s, it’s just random, like stamps chequebooks, like I think is that actually need on hand.
David Ralph [4:34]
flowers or something deep and personal. I thought we were going to get on that. And the other thing is, Can Can you really pick up from passion? Can if you walk into a room, and somebody isn’t saying anything? Can you feel the passion coming out of them? Because I think I can?
Jeanine Cerundolo [4:51]
Yeah, no, I think that we do I think what is it 80% of your body language is how you communicate more than even the words you’re saying. So I think that we do so consciously I there’s a whole book about that called blink that in the first second or two of meeting somebody and before you can read a lot of things I think about them and and know whether you’re connecting Actually, it’s funny that you mentioned that with the higher purpose project because Dan and I had met for about five minutes and and decided to, to collaborate in the future. So sometimes you can just you know that there’s some kind of connexion, some collaboration to be had just based on on that person’s smile. You know,
David Ralph [5:26]
it’s love at first sight it really
Jeanine Cerundolo [5:28]
Yeah, yeah, it is.
David Ralph [5:30]
Did you when you met up with Dan, how many years ago? Was it? Because it seems to me that a higher purpose project is reasonably new, but it’s really now finding its feet.
Jeanine Cerundolo [5:41]
Yeah, it has its legs, but it’s growing them fast. It is about a year and a half in from conception, I guess. I think we met at a meetup group in New York. So speaking of these one on one encounters, you know, it’s just I tend to go to networking events very frequently. And in New York is a great place do that. And so, we met there. And then one of the founding principles was this movie that I really love that speaking of following your passion, and your calling, and your bliss, it’s called finding Joe and I don’t know if you’ve heard of it yet. But if you haven’t homework is to go home and watch this movie. It’s it’s about Joseph Campbell, the famous mythologised and his work and legacy in the world. And it’s all about following your bliss, really finding your truth. And I think your listeners will really resonate with that if they’re at a crossroad or transition of what to do. So not only will get to how that relates to higher purpose, but I showed it to my very practical brother, I’m kind of like the black sheep in the family or the tie, sheep, whatever I do, do my own thing. But my brother was working in advertising and, and doing a very logical, you know, normal track, and then saw this movie, watched it eight times quit his job moved across the country to San Diego from Boston, and started his dream job of doing wedding videos. And now as a wedding videographer and full fledged entrepreneur. So it’s a very powerful movie, be careful what happens to you once you once you see it, because then when Dan saw it, he got the idea for the higher purpose project right away. So and then, you know, here we are. So it’s, it’s amazing what what those kind of films can do. And they speak to your heart about the hero’s journey,
David Ralph [7:17]
when he when he got into the film The third time, yes, you know, you put a five year old in front of a film, and they will watch it nine times back to back, but an adult in front of a film, they will watch it once. And maybe again, couple of years later, that’s kind of not normal behaviour. But did you think to yourself, oh, my God, I’ve opened a portal and he’s gone mad somewhat.
Jeanine Cerundolo [7:44]
No, I thought to myself, hooray, he’s drinking the kool aid that I’ve been drinking for years. And I feel like this movie is it’s, it’s because it’s a documentary. And there’s a lot of different statements, it gives me chills and makes me cry almost every time I’ve seen it. And I’ve seen it more times than he in the past three or four years. It’s almost like for me to go to like the Bible. You know, like, for me, it’s just that that’s what I live by. It’s almost like a credo, just the words, that each of these people saying the sentiments is could no better sum up anything that I believe. So I really appreciate. It’s very simple. It’s what you said earlier about some quotes that we were discussing. There’s, there are things that seems simple on the surface, but actually, those are the deepest things. Wisdom can come in small packages, you know?
David Ralph [8:29]
Well, I bet all our listeners are exactly like me at the moment thinking right? Finding Joe, is it on Netflix? Can I watch it tonight? But yeah, give us an overview of it, because I’m intrigued how this one film made your your, your I was gonna say your husband and but your brother quit his job and move over to San Diego because that is that is powerful stuff, isn’t it? So tell us finding Joseph about
Jeanine Cerundolo [8:53]
it is basically so it’s a documentary features people from Deepak Chopra to Fleetwood Mac to Tony Hawkins all these famous musicians and skateboard artists and healers, talking about what it means to follow your passion. I mean, David, you would love it based on what your show is all about. It’s just what does it mean to connect to that part of you that knows that you’re a hero that resonates with every movie you’ve ever seen. And that was Joseph Campbell’s whole thing he saw every storey and he greatly influenced Star Wars, the creation of Star Wars, who’s good friends with George Lucas. So he said, Every storey we’ve ever seen every myth has the same trajectory or the hero. It’s called the hero’s journey, you know, he, he hears the call to adventure, and then he refuses it. No, I can’t do that too scary. And then he finds a mentor who helps him out Obi Wan Kenobi style. And he goes through tests and tribulations. And at the end, he gets the elixir, he comes to that prize, after after much, much harder, harder and work. And then he returns to his community with it. And so that’s actually a lot of what we do with the higher purpose project is we model the whole experience after this trajectory, because we feel like all of us can relate to it. To some degree, we are all heroes in our own journey and supporting actors to each other’s hero’s journey. So it’s it’s quite powerful as a concept. So
David Ralph [10:12]
the question is on this, because I always think of the questions from the listeners point of view, because listening in at the moment, they’re on the trains, they’re on the buses, and they haven’t got the chance to actually speak to you. Skype to Skype almost said face to face. Yeah, Skype to Skype. Yeah. So do you think everyone has got a hero in them? It’s just a lot is Layton. It’s like a volcano that hasn’t erupted? Or do you think some people are just born to go through the motions?
Jeanine Cerundolo [10:40]
No, I kind of come from the philosophy that everyone is both creative and a creator. And the hero for me hero is not necessarily that you have accomplished XYZ and that you have blood on your face, and you’ve come through slaying the monster, you know, it’s not as dramatic as that. But I think that we all have something where we feel called toward and something we feel that we fear. And usually they’re the same thing. Often fear can be a compass can be a way to say, Aha, that’s what I have to move towards. It can also be a signal of danger. And you have to distinguish between the two. But a lot of times the things are socially afraid of, oh, I’ll be judged for this. And maybe you can relate in, I don’t know if you had any of this for starting your podcast, there’s a point where this podcast was an idea without form. And you had to do something to say, I’m going to put it out there. And I’m going to do these elements. And this is going to be and I’m going to reach out to these people. And that didn’t just happen, like, like a snap, you know, like you had to probably confront some things, I’m assuming, but you can tell me more about it, to bring that into reality and and cross that those thresholds?
David Ralph [11:42]
No, you’re absolutely right. I, I had many points, I had this idea, first of all, and I was at work. And I’ve told this storey before, but hey, who cares? It’s my show, I’m going to do it again. It came into my head, I’m going to do a podcast and I’m going to speak to people across the globe, about fantastic the challenges and obstacles and all those kind of things. And I honestly this is quite naive. Looking back at it. I thought to myself, this is unique. No one has ever thought of this before, because I hadn’t been in that environment. And then once I looked around, I realised Oh, actually, there’s so many people doing this, I vain, and almost folk is never gonna work, you know, people are already ahead of the game. And then I thought to myself, no, I’m going to do it different from them. And I’m going to do it better. And I don’t know if I am doing it better. But all I know, that was my concept. So I’ll put one I’m going to do this. And I remember sending out an email to a lady. And in the in the early days, you know, no one knew of me in any shape or form. And I sent this email to this lady and this gentleman. And the very first email I sent, funnily enough was to elton john. I just knew that he wasn’t going to respond. But it was by sending an email that kind of asked for his help, but wasn’t going to get a response. It was my way of kind of overcome coming that starting fear. So I wrote an email, I sent it and in my heart of hearts of a white, that’s gone, bang. And then I did another one very, very quickly. And when I did that, the bloke came, it was Saturday afternoon, he came back so quickly, it was untrue. But yet, I’m on there. And it was Oh my God, I’ve got to do this now. I’ve got to do. And so yeah, I went through all those little steps of fears. And even when I had 34 shows recorded on the day of launch, I almost didn’t press the button and launch. Yeah. And it’s just, you know, I look back on it now. And I think it’s madness. What was stopping me. And the only thing that was stopping me was the same thing that stops everyone. It was the fear of looking stupid.
Jeanine Cerundolo [13:43]
Yep, it’s such a big one. And I love to recommend things. There’s a book I’m reading called the energy of money, and you think it’s about money. But money is just an energetic currency. It’s it’s a representation of a lot of different things. So they say when you’re trying to bring something into manifestation, you reach a point called trouble at the border. And I think that’s so funny, you know, it’s just like this threshold, that’s just like, oh, now you’re about to make it and then everything you know, in my world call it dreams and dragons, you the moment you fixate on your dreams, all the dragons and finding Joe has this metaphor as well, all the dragons come up to play, they’re like, well, you’re going to look silly, well, this person’s doing it better than you, as you said, or this or that. And so I think it’s funny that you said, you know, well, I can do it better. Because I think that what one thing that helps me is not not having the element of well, that person’s better, or I’ll be better, but thinking, I can do it in my own unique way. And it’ll be different. And so whoever resonates with me is going to be a different person who resonates with someone else and someone else’s someone else. So there’s room for everybody, you know, to do it their way.
David Ralph [14:42]
Now, that is a key part. And I want the listeners to focus in on that. Yeah, Janine is saying there is you do not have to be world conquering, you only have to be the best in your field. And if you create a field out there that other people are in for a start a small, you’re going to win that game instantly. If you’re going into more competitive once again, find the angle that makes you slightly different from them. And once again, you’ve got more than a head start to achieve your aim and win the game.
Jeanine Cerundolo [15:14]
Totally. And I’ll and I’ll add, I’ll add one more thing to that, which is that you don’t even have to be the best in your field. I know this because I struggled. I teach yoga. And I struggled with working in a very elite studio in Manhattan and saying, oh, my goodness, well, that person knows more yoga than I do. And this person can do a headstand better than I can, you know, all the things, which is actually for me, yoga is about self compassion and loving and accepting yourself where you are. So it’s kind of ironic to be competitive or secure about other people. But, you know, I heard some great advice, which was that you don’t have to be the Ph. D. Yoga teacher, you can be a fifth grade yoga teacher, and you’ll teach people who are in first and second and third and fourth, and fifth, you know, all people who know a little bit less of yoga than you do. They have something to benefit from what you do know even if you can’t compete with somebody at the quote unquote, masters level. So that really helped liberate me with I do have something to share, regardless of why that compares to other people’s credentials. So I found that very useful.
David Ralph [16:09]
So how bendy Are you in the yoga state?
Jeanine Cerundolo [16:13]
Yeah, it’s funny, because I tend to joke when people like Oh, I’m sorry, I’m late, or this or that. I’m like, it’s okay. I’m flexible. You know, it’s my job. So yeah, I feel like one thing that that I love is that every breath takes you deeper and the bending is changes from day to day, you know, I went running six miles for the first time in my life, I was not that bendy The next day, it was it was very sore. So it’s just about coming back to the breath and the moment and saying it’s okay to be exactly where I am. And yesterday, I could do this kind of pose. And on the left side, I can’t do what I could do on the right side. And that’s perfectly fine. I’m going to be exactly where I am. And just breathe into it and go a little bit deeper from where I am right now. I’m not trying to be somewhere you’re not because you can’t get there from you have to be exactly where you are. If you’re gonna take the next right step.
David Ralph [16:58]
Because I’ve never been been able to touch my toes ever. Yeah, I live on a lot of people say that. And then they use it as a they say, Well, I’m not flexible. So I can’t do yoga. And I said, Well, that’s why you should do yoga. That’s exactly a good reason to start. I’ve got very long legs. That’s my excuse. My My legs are like three quarters of my body. I’m like a stock and your
Jeanine Cerundolo [17:19]
arms very long as well. No.
David Ralph [17:21]
Tiny little arms, huh? No, I think that like
Jeanine Cerundolo [17:26]
your normal arm. So what is it? Yeah, when you’re when you’re doing the poses called 10, astronauts a forward fold. So when you do it, elongate first in Ted us in a mountain pose reach up. And then when you’re bouncing forward, my favourite imagery imagery really helps because the imagination is really, really a big key. So imagine yourself as you have a rod like a towel rack right under your stomach as you’re rolling over that and you’re like the towel. So you want to be very loose with your torso and with your arms so that you’re bending over that imaginary towel rack and keeping your legs strong. And I think as you do that, and then keep breathing. You imagine your head is a big heavy rock completely sinking and you let go because a lot of us still hold attention. We’re still holding our necks holding our shoulders. So you just completely relax. Maybe like a willow tree when sway from side to side with the branches which are your arms. And I think that that already gets you about an inch or two. Maybe if you don’t touch your toes, you get an inch or two closer towards your shins with your nose. So try that one next time and let me know how it goes.
David Ralph [18:21]
I don’t know if I will to be honest. I had to do a handstand yesterday, my kids are doing handstands and I said dad do it. And I go Yeah, I could do that. I used to be able to do handstands, I couldn’t come anywhere near I realised that part of that. That kind of flexibility and bending and all that kind of stuff. I know I should do it. But it’s not just noise.
Jeanine Cerundolo [18:42]
Number one thing. Yeah, yeah, well, first of all, don’t shoot on yourself. I, I that’s a something I find very, very interesting is how often we we say that to ourselves that that should or try is another big word like that. Like, I’m going to try to do this. And actually, if you think about a balloon and a new needle, and you’re going to pop the balloon now try to pop the balloon in your mind’s eye imagine yourself trying Yeah, it’s kind of a funny image, isn’t it? You’re just sitting there with a needle looking kind of silly so either you pop it or you don’t there’s no really thing in the middle and should is another word that we get caught up on like, you know and then it becomes a chore you know don’t if you don’t want to do it. Don’t do it as my philosophy if you want to do it do it all the way hundred percent.
David Ralph [19:21]
I had ginger Kern on the on the show, Episode 32. And I said the word should to her and she went to me. She went to me.
Unknown Speaker [19:30]
David Ralph [19:32]
yeah, yeah. As soon as I said it, I thought oh, dangerous territory. And so I I kind of pulled back from it. And I was safe. I was safe. I’m ginger attack. But yeah, soon as you said the word should bang. She was on to that one.
Jeanine Cerundolo [19:45]
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s it’s one of those things our ears are trained to hear and to say, well, we’re, the alarm bells go off.
David Ralph [19:53]
So let’s start joining up your doors, because I’m fascinated about you Janine, and anyone who is in the position of helping people and and helping people overcome the fears that stop all of us. But you have those fears as well, you’re human, you’ve always got those fears. So how do you go from that child through the transitional part of adult being, I assume, last like most of us to be able to find your unique path? Were you in a position comfortable enough to be an arbour to Ben, facilitate and coach and help people find their true path in life?
Jeanine Cerundolo [20:35]
Oh, that’s such a good question. And I think I’ll start by saying that it’s not always comfortable. And it’s that there’s no, my big thing is there’s no such thing as arriving. So I can tell you that I’m in a place where I feel like I’ve accomplished the goals I set out for three years ago, and I’m doing everything that I love. And there’s always a mountain right after the one you just summited, and there’s always another place to be. So something I like to say is, we’re both a bud and a flower at the same time. So if you think about it, you are always completely whole and perfect. I really believe that I think that right now in this present if you just take a breath. Wow. It’s like what you said the beginning you said you were doing fabulous. Like we’re fabulous. We’re alive. It’s great. Like, what are we striving for? This is just perfect. And you’re also but there’s still like the nature of you is to grow and to say, let me do another podcast. And let me get to this next goal. Like you started on the show saying we’re halfway through the year, like, Where are we going? So the trick, I think, is an enlightening in balancing the two and saying, I am both simultaneously and I’m okay with it instead of seeing them as opposition. So that’s been that’s always my task. You know, there’s never a moment where, yes, there’s a lot of moments where I’m like, Yes, I’m so aligned. This is so wonderful. I’m on top of the world. But those are peak moments. I think that knowing that it’s kind of like a peaks and valleys kind of existence. And it’s all part of the journey and just accepting it as it flows. This is just something that keeps me comfortable with being uncomfortable.
David Ralph [22:04]
So so the little five year old, Janine, if I’d asked her what she wanted to do with her life, what would she have said,
Jeanine Cerundolo [22:12]
Oh, she wanted to be a writer.
David Ralph [22:14]
So why isn’t she have it now? Because Yeah, between you blog and that kind of stuff? Yeah.
Jeanine Cerundolo [22:21]
Yeah, I am. Yeah, I didn’t, I always was very keen on self expression. And then my medium was writing, I love to dance. I’m not a good singer. But sometimes I sing when I feel like it. And I love to paint. And again, I have no formal painting training. But that’s cool, too, is when you’re attached to an art form or self expression. Sometimes you think you have to be good at it right, that should pop in while I should have done this painting, as well as the other one, the liberating thing for me with an art form that I didn’t know very well is I could be terrible at it. And there was no expectation, you know, it’s like that I have no way to ruin this painting, because it’s going to be better than the blank canvas for sure. And, and I love painting. Now, it’s just like, so much fun to finger paint, or put colours and do this and do that and just play. It’s just as such an expression of play, because I don’t, I’m not trying to be good at it. I know, I have no skills in it. And I have paintings that I’ve done all over my room that I that I kind of think are quite meaningful to me so.
David Ralph [23:19]
So the only people because the tagline to the show is connecting our power or connecting our past to build our future. I’m a great believer. And I was a believer. And now I’m a total believer that every one of us if we looked back at who we were, when we were younger, and the things that we love doing and the things that we really enjoyed. And the best of all the things that we found easy, all things that we should be doing now. But for some reason or other, we get lost on the way and we go into a job and office job or whatever, just for the money. We think that’s what it needs to be done. Because I only know looking at what I’m doing now, it feels so natural. And it news so much like I should be doing this. But part of me goes, why the hell was I doing it? 20 years ago? Yeah. And if I look back at my school reports, when I was a five year old and a 10 year old, 11 year old, it was what I’m doing now it was David, to speak to people. David likes to have conversations when you should be doing this.
Unknown Speaker [24:19]
You know, you shouldn’t be doing that. You should be having conversation. Yeah, absolutely.
David Ralph [24:22]
You know, and we all lose that, don’t we? So this the Janine of five year old to 11 year old, you was always on that path. Do you think?
Jeanine Cerundolo [24:33]
Yeah, I don’t know if we lose it, David, I think that’s the thing. I think we can I think it’s always there. I think it’s like a diamond, it gets dusty. It gets covered. It gets cut, like a little bit dark and confused. But I think it’s just always there. And I do lead a lot of meditations where you do go back to that inner child at different stages and see what you up. What did you love? How can you remember what what did you get on your school report card, let it other say, and you start to dust off that diamond and reconnect. And so I think connecting the dots is, is starting to reconnect with that part of you. That’s always there. I don’t think it goes anywhere. I don’t think it gets lost or it. So it’s a way i think it’s it’s just needs to be uncovered or remembered. reminded, remind yourself literally. So. So yeah, so I think for me, it’s bit I feel like for me, it’s been really beautiful, because I’ve known very strongly what I’ve loved and there been a lot for me, it’s been a question of how do I do everything that I want to do because there’s so many multi passionate person. So that has revolved around three, three different realms. The first is self expression. And within that writing, the second is this call it healing arts world. It’s it’s yoga, it’s meditation, it’s life coaching, it’s you know, the forms can be different, the essence is the same, but the way that shows up can vary. And that’s why we have different jobs and different different ways that you express this through different projects. And then the third one for me is entrepreneurship slash, anything to do with having people get to the next step in their lives. So for me for a few years that looked like AmeriCorps Jobs, which, if you don’t know what that is, it’s, or maybe you’ve heard of the Peace Corps. It’s a, it’s different nonprofits that get together to help help people improve their lives. And so for for a while, I worked with homeless and low income individuals. And for another while I worked with at risk youth who had dropped out of the traditional high school setting because they weren’t fitting the mould. And in each of these jobs, they seem very disparate. But for me, it was always like, here’s a person here are their dreams, how do we get them there? How do we get them a step closer to who they want to be and who they’re called to be. And so these three things have been the kind of pillars of my life. And when I had been scrambling to make ends meet in New York City, you know, waitressing and nanny, and doing all sorts of things that didn’t align, I feel the difference. Because I know I’ve known inherently always what what I’m really here to do and what I love to do so
David Ralph [26:56]
well, let’s play the words of Steve Jobs, because I think they they say summarise what you were saying very, very nicely. So I’m going to play his words. Back in 2005, he did a commencement speech to university feathers, and ladies, and this is what he said,
Unknown Speaker [27:12]
of course, it was impossible to connect the dots looking forward when I was in college. But it was very clear looking backwards 10 years later. Again, you can’t connect the dots looking forward, you can only connect them looking backwards. So you have to trust that the dots will somehow connect in your future, you have to trust in something, your gut, destiny, life, karma, whatever. Because believing that the dots will connect down the road will give you the confidence to follow your heart, even when it leaves you off the well worn path. And that will make all the difference.
David Ralph [27:48]
What you recommend.
Jeanine Cerundolo [27:49]
So beautiful. I love it. I think that that’s so true. I think that it’s kind of like a connective tissue or connective thread that you have to weave together. And I really think that we’re meaning making creatures. And I think that we make the meaning. And I think we can make the meaning easily afterwards. He’s so right. When you look back and be like, Ah, that led me to that. And if I hadn’t gone to that party, I wouldn’t have met that person. You know, it all makes sense, even the low points. And I think that’s the beautiful thing. There’s always a gift and a lesson from the points that seem like they’re a breakdown, they can usually be a breakthrough. And and so so for me, it’s a question of seeing if you can make that meaning even in right now. And he said you can’t make them going forward. But I wonder if we can I wonder if you can connect the dots of who you are and what lights you up and what you love to do. So much so that you have a foundation to create the storey that you want to create an invent your life as you would dream it. And then that way, when you’re going to your next dot, you’re going there intentionally and you’re like, this is why this fits in this. And then be aware that you know, man plans and God laughs and you don’t always know what will happen and what curve you’ll get. But you know, that will all connect as he said in the end. So
David Ralph [29:04]
you know, that’s, that is brilliant. I salute you. And I will I will clap and do things and be cheering from a distance. Because you’re the first person to say that about those words. But can we be intentional? Can we? Can we look at ourselves so deeply and understand our core essence that we can actually make those dots into stepping stones and not one person has said that in any of the episodes and when you were saying that I suddenly thought Oh, my God. Yes. Why haven’t I thought about that? Pretty
Jeanine Cerundolo [29:39]
cool. Yeah, it’s it’s I think that’s it. That’s the doctor stepping stones. You said it best herself. I love that. Yeah, it is like, just like I do believe in that I believe that we we are the authors of our own storey. And that that fits into my purpose. I think at some point along the line, I decided that being a writer did not just mean putting words on paper, it meant writing the storey of my life and what did that look like? And that I could be an author in a different way. Not just Janine, Soren below, you know, author of some book, but what is the storey I’m writing every day and the way I interact with people and the way that I live my life? No,
David Ralph [30:13]
do you know you don’t say your surname is what does I do?
Jeanine Cerundolo [30:17]
Oh, no, I don’t think I do not have
David Ralph [30:21]
been a passionate woman. I
Jeanine Cerundolo [30:24]
know, I shouldn’t. I could I will.
David Ralph [30:28]
Talk period because everybody in life and especially people that have found their path. And I didn’t realise this when I started doing the shows. But now I realise it clearly. That the big.as I call it but Dr. Bet you where you find yourself is normally 99% a dark period in your life. And it’s not that where everything’s going well for you is where you’re struggling and you’re you’re not happy and you can’t have been forced into a situation of reassessment. Have you had a double point you were talking about sort of the waitressing in New York and stuff. Would that be your your black.no, I
Jeanine Cerundolo [31:06]
was still very persistent in that. And I still felt like I was like very, you know, make make it bigger, go big or go home whatever the slogan is of New York, I was I was very wrapped into that. I would say I would say it happened a few years earlier the year before I moved there because I had to take a leap of faith to move there. So I was living in Colorado at that school that I was mentioning the high school for the for the students, we like to call them at promise rather than at risk. So so I was working there. And I got there. And I this has been a big dream of mine, David, I had wanted to be at the school for two years, I’d apply that gotten rejected, I applied again, I got in, and I finally got this fellowship to work there. And I got there and I loved it two months of bliss. And then two or three months into it. It was like the fellowship was ending at the end of the year. And I said, Now what now what will happen? And so that felt like the big darkness was, I don’t know. And so I had to start asking the questions. And the questions were, who am I? What do I want? And then how do I get there? And so I answered the first two within that year, and it took a lot of many sticky notes on my computer and many self searching moments to say, Well, okay, what do I know about everything? You’re saying my childhood self? What I’ve always loved, you know, who really am I core? Am I in this world? And what am I here for? And and what do I want, that’s something a lot of people actually don’t know, once you know it, it’s not the end of the storey, then you have to go after it and make it happen. But a lot of people get stuck on I don’t even know what I want. And we have so many options. We live in a world of infinite possibility. So so I think that was that was it I just, I get stuck or in a darkness of the I don’t know. And then if I do know, kind of those fears you were mentioning earlier, well, what if this happens? And what if that happens? And what if nobody likes it? Or, you know, all those fears? And actually that to link it back to finding Joe connecting the dots? One of the quotes, actually, in the question and answer session, I saw the producer, the filmmaker live, he gave a question and answer session. And he said, when I was making this movie, I was thinking of making the movie and I was thinking of it. And so I sent a lot of emails just like you did David to people to help him john, you know, he sent emails, Hi, I’m thinking of making this movie. Will you like to be in it? Will you help me it from the Joseph Campbell Foundation, this and that, and nobody got back to him. He said nobody got back to him. And so then the guy from the Joseph Campbell Foundation, who was also there said, two weeks later, or two months later, I got another email from this director. And he said, Hello, again, you might have heard from before I am making this movie about finding Joe and it’s going to be an if you’d like to join me if you’d like to be in it, please respond. And then he did. So there’s a difference between saying, I’m thinking about this, I want to do that, blah, blah, blah, and actually saying, All right, I’m going to hit that record button, as you said, hit the launch and do it. And then people can get on board and there’s more momentum. So I think that’s something that’s always been my lesson to learn is I have so many ideas. And then how do you get over that stickiness over that darkness enough to say, I’m doing it and you know, join me?
David Ralph [34:07]
I would join you. Do you know that? Awesome, thank you. I’m sitting here listening to your words. And I should be writing notes down as I do at the time. And I suddenly keep them thinking, Oh, hang on, I’m listening. I’m not writing anything. And I keep on switching off. So we’re finding Jovan, well, actually, is the point of the film for for the producer that suddenly dawned on me, he was so passionate for that film to be made. He was why don’t you think that he had to see that?
Jeanine Cerundolo [34:40]
Oh, he shares your same passion that he was very inspired by Joseph Campbell. But he shares the same passion passion you do about people needing to do what they love in the world so that they come alive, you know that quote by I think, Oh, my gosh, Howard Thurman, it’s don’t ask yourself what the world needs, ask your self, what makes you come alive, and then go and do that. Because what the world needs are people who’ve become alive. So I think that he you, I all share this desire for people to just be lit up inside. And so he really wanted to, to make a movie that would share that message. And that that is the point of the film, I think is to inspire the viewer to get up off their couch and immediately think and analyse themselves. Well, how can I be the hero of my life in this way? And what can I do to the way I say it is following your bliss as when what you do is aligned with who you are, and what you believe that what you do is an expression of who you are at your core and what you believe in value. So I think that’s when you’re really aligned with your with your bliss, your true your true happiness, if you will, happiness to think as as an underrated world word but or, like doesn’t doesn’t do it justice, but we use it because that’s, that’s the one we have right now. Because so many people
David Ralph [35:53]
and I was one of these people. I don’t, I used to read stuff all the time, because I was trying to find but that key. And as I said in the introduction, you find the key to the lock, where others have been looking for that key or their life, you find that by asking the right questions, or pushing them in the right direction. Because sometimes it’s easier to see from the outside when you can see yourself. But I used to be reading stuff all the time, all the time, all the time. And I’d see people doing these amazing things. And there was always something like an elastic band holding me back. And when I found this band I’m doing now it was like five years of elastic bands all got cut at the same time. And I went flying forward. Yeah, and it just is like Rocket Power I’ve got you know, I worked harder than I used to, I hold my hand up and say that, you know, when I used to be in the corporate line, the days I could float through and just kind of have a cup of coffee, and then go after lunch and then come back and do a bit of a now here. It’s it’s drinking when I get up every morning thinking to myself, here we go. And sometimes I’m absolutely whacked. But I wake up the next morning, and I’ve got that Rocky power all over me again.
Jeanine Cerundolo [37:11]
Well, it’s because you’re actually fulfilled, you’re not tired from being stolen and uncomfortable. You’re, you’re actually spent. And that brings me to actually have two things to say about this, oh, I want to go back to the keys for a minute. But I use the word God, you know, pretty loosely, I was raised Catholic, but I have a more. I don’t know I don’t relate necessarily to a specific religion have more expansive view of spirituality as I’ve experienced lots of things. So you can use it how you want. But there is a quote that says, I want to go to God at the end of my life and say I have nothing no shred of talent left, I used everything that you gave me. And that’s been really driving for me is at the end of my life, can I look back at all the dots and say, I have used up everything and being used up every day from you using your potential and investing in and what you love, I think is very different from being wary and exhausted in a different way where you’re feeling, you’re resisting so much what you know, is calling you. And so I think it’s beautiful to go to bed fulfilled and absolutely spent, and then wake up and feel energised to do it again, I think that’s great. And then what you said about the keys is really interesting, because I don’t think I have the keys to other people’s answers. And yes, I can grant them perspective. But it’s only perspective as a mirror GIFs perspective, my job is to hold up a clean mirror that has no none of my own stuff on it. And on my own projections is the cleanest mirror I can so that people can see their own things and unlock those keys for themselves because they hold the keys to their own answers. And so they can ask the right questions or hold the space or do something in that way. And in our work together, where they can see themselves clearly in a new way, that’s going to be the ticket. And one of my favourite songs right now, one of the lines is you’ve got the key, but I’ll never keep my door locked. So I really like that this idea of not locking ourselves up not blocking what wants to be what wants to be manifested, if you will, and just saying okay, like we have the keys. But what if we just kept our hearts and minds and spirits open to what’s possible and, and then just just go from there with it with an open approach.
David Ralph [39:18]
Now, I don’t actually agree with what you’re saying there. I think number one, I think your mirror must be in the shape of a key first. So so you’re waving this mirror around all nice and shiny, but it’s key. And I think what you’re doing, even if the people are finding their own key, they haven’t got the courage to turn the lock themselves. You’re putting your hand on there, and you’re opening the door with him. And I think that’s that is the message isn’t it, you’re actually allowing them to to open that door and see what’s the other side without being uncomfortable and scared of failure. And I think that’s the key to it.
Jeanine Cerundolo [39:58]
Yeah, I think it’s definitely important to have somebody else there because it makes it, you know, you know that you’re not alone, it makes it even I feel this way I believe so much more easily in other people’s dreams, then sometimes my own and I think that’s very human is that we can so easily see the potential another like, Oh, you’ve got this and we want to be their cheerleader. And yet, when it comes to ourselves, we are often our own biggest enemy, our own biggest critic. And it’s harder for us to be as good of a friend to ourselves as we are to others. So it is it is very nice to be in collaboration and teams or to work in the in a coaching relationship where you have somebody supporting you, as you said in that way to give that extra nudge to to open that open that the chest of, of treasures,
David Ralph [40:42]
it’s got to be done as a name that this is a totally different show to what I was expecting to do. Different show to pretty much any of the others because we haven’t so much touched on your life. It’s more about, it’s more the essence of Join Up Dots. And we’re saying to the audience, the God’s sake, if you’re unhappy, do something about it, you know, and it’s not going to be easy, it is not going to be easy. And some people will go their whole life and not find their thing. But if you really start looking and you start taking action, and you surround yourself with the right people, you’ve got half a chance, and I would hate it, if some listener out there is going to work every single day listening to all our podcasts, but not having a glimmer of a better life, I just need to sign up for an evening course, or go and help at a charity event or something just to get that momentum going because it is the momentum that will take you forward, it’s got to, you know, if you get up that bed and you walk to the other side of the room, you have moved to the other side of the room. And it’s the same as in your life, you’ve got to get up and take one step after another after another after another, and you’re going to get somewhere.
Jeanine Cerundolo [41:58]
Yeah, and I think that’s a the momentum works both ways. The inertia, as you were saying, if you’re doing the same thing and expecting a different result, you’re not going to get it because it’s it’s always repeated. And then you’ll you’ll just yeah, as you said, it takes a lot to get up out of your habit out of your team out of out of what you know. And so it doesn’t actually necessarily happen overnight. But I really find that, for me, what’s been really helpful is having accountability partners, I get together with a friend or two at different times a week. And we spend half an hour to an hour on each just focused on that one person. And we ask these questions and we think about things. What are you working on? And what are you working towards? And what could you do this week, this month, one thing in an area that you feel unfulfilled that you could feel that a little bit to feel that momentum of walking across the room, as you said, and so we hold each other to that and you can create spreadsheets or whatever. But the next week, you say How did that go? How did your art museum go? How did trying that internship? Go? How did whatever. And now you have you have to do it because you said so someone else is watching. It’s like when you go to the gym with a friend You know, they’re going to be waiting for you to at the gym, you know, you’re 10 times more likely to get out of bed and and get there than if you’re just holding a date with yourself.
David Ralph [43:05]
How do people get an accountability partner that they’re sitting in a job, and his big Brando sits next to them that they don’t really talk to other been going to work? And they’ve got Jim on the other side? And that’s kind of it? How do they find a kindred spirit? Or do you need a kindred spirit? Do you just need to have somebody who will task you with something and make sure you’ve done it next week?
Jeanine Cerundolo [43:32]
I don’t know if you need to I think you have a lot of motivation from within for sure. But I do love the saying that says that joy shared is doubled and grief shared is halved. And in that way, I think that anything we do when we get to celebrate with someone who’s on our side, and when we get to cry on someone’s shoulder, who cares about the problem as much as we do? It just makes the ride that much more bearable. Pleasant, exciting, you know. And so I think that I don’t know, I’m a little bit spoiled living in New York, because there’s you if you are bored, you know, it’s your fault, because there’s so many things you could go to meetup groups, you could sign up for things. I mean, now we have the internet anywhere you have the internet, there’s so many coaching programmes, people offering these services, you know, there’s so much available, even just if they can have access to your podcast, I think they can have access to the world is your oyster, you know. So I think if one were looking for an accountability partner, or a or something like that, it wouldn’t be too hard to find someone to share the journey with you.
David Ralph [44:29]
I lived in New York for seven weeks. And I’ll be honest, I was bored out I must go
Jeanine Cerundolo [44:34]
No way. How did you get bored, there’s so much to do,
David Ralph [44:37]
there is so much to do. But I was on my own, I had to go over there to work. And I found that the office people that I was working with would go home in the evening. And so I was on my own. And the first few sort of weeks I’d walk around and stuff and it was the weekends, that was the worst thing just being on your own for like two days. And I kind of closed down, I used to just go to the movies all the time, just so that I could go there. And I’d come at a time it that I could go to one film, come out, go into another film, get a hot dog go into another film. And I do like for back to back just to save time. Now I look at it. And I think to myself what I would have done, you know, as a more mature man is hire one of those locals to take me around and show me the things that I didn’t know. But at the time, I just was like trapped in corporate land, doing a job, which I was good at. But then in the evening, everyone cleared off going back to their families and I was all on my own. I was bored terribly.
Jeanine Cerundolo [45:34]
Yeah, I think that’s interesting. And I’ll kind of refer to our friend ginger again, because she talks about the travellers mindset. And I found that even before I lived in New York, I had my best experiences in New York as a visitor, because I had more of a travellers mindset, I didn’t have things to do, there’s nowhere to go, I just kind of wandered around parks and coffee shops and everything while I was visiting, and there was no agenda. And I found that I met the most fascinating people they would tell tell me about places to go, you know, it was just like one serendipitous thing after another. And that was because my mind and heart were so open to receiving that. Whereas sometimes, you know, I’m not bored here because I live here and I have my my work and things to do. But, but if you know, I also have less of that serendipitous encounters, because I keep my eyes to where I’m going and I have an agenda, you know, you have these expectations, I should be here by that time XYZ. But I think having some unstructured time in your life and, and it’s wherever you live, can can leave room for that spontaneity. And that’s always a good thing.
David Ralph [46:32]
I remember the last time I was bail, I stumbled down to ground zero before the sort of new businesses are going up. And there’s a little church down there, where all the firemen went in and rested in between fighting food, it’s so terrible tragedy that occurred. And all the benches have got like black marks where the firemen would come in basically on fire, resting their boots and singing. And it was one of those things that was so simple, didn’t cost me anything to go in there. But it was a so powerful that, you know, so many people were, you know, giving their lives to help the people. And although we’re not giving our lives to help people, you’ve got to do that having you you know, I’m a great believer that we are here to help each other. And if more of the world help each other, I don’t want to get all religious and all that.
Jeanine Cerundolo [47:21]
No, no. And it’s it is what it’s about. Yeah, and I think that’s what you are doing. I wouldn’t say that you’re not helping people, I hope. I mean, this has been a great chatting with you. I know that’s it’s helped me just thinking about these things. It’s fabulous. And and also to you know, I’m sure all your listeners agree that there’s there’s some nugget of truth that they’re getting out of out of being able to have this platform that you provide and and also, I think our life shifts a lot. I noticed that for myself all the time when I think about myself and my issues and my this and my that it’s a very narrow focus. And I really get stuck. And when I think about serving others, or I’m putting a position where I can help someone even on a small scale, and I see this every day in New York, people get getting up for someone elderly, or someone with a child’s people helping people with a suitcase or a stroller on the stairs every every day I see somebody and get the opportunity also to do it myself. Be generous to a complete stranger Are you lost, you need directions, it’s beautiful and, and so I think that we can do that and that just having a service service mindset and I’m such a quota Holic, but I have one more. And it’s the three things we want most in life, happiness, freedom and peace of mind we can only attain by giving them to someone else. So I think that that inadvertently, you know, the rose the hand that gives the rose get the fragrance on it, that kind of thing. I think that you also are helping yourself when you help another.
David Ralph [48:41]
You certainly make yourself feel better, don’t you?
Jeanine Cerundolo [48:44]
Yeah, yeah. It just gives you that warm fuzzy feeling. It’s just a side effect. It’s it’s a good one. I think that’s very useful.
David Ralph [48:50]
Well, before we put you on the mic, Janine and send you back in time the Sermon on the mic to have a one on one with your younger self. where’s where’s the focus for next year, two years, three years? Well, what is Janine aiming to achieve in her life?
Jeanine Cerundolo [49:06]
Yeah, I’m, I have a lot of dreams, I, I’ve realised a bunch of them. And I’m living a life that I love. And as I said, there’s always more to go. So for me, it’s about really professionally, taking the healing work to another level, I may or may not get a Masters in some sort of counselling or expressive art therapy, I’m looking to continue working with the higher purpose project and expanding our wonderful community and all the work that we do there to light up change makers to help each other with their dreams. I’m working on the poetry which I would love, you know, if we have the time on the mic, I have a little poem that I’d love to share, because I think that would help my 10 year old self. So I have I’ve collected the poetry that I’ve written throughout the years, and I’d like to either self publish or send them to poetry contest or something like that. So a bunch of things I said, I have multi multi passion. So kind of taking each of those is to the next level of, of height and depth.
David Ralph [50:05]
I spoke with a gentleman this afternoon called guy Vincent. He’s Episode 55. And he’s creating a publisher platform where authors and poets and staff can self publish their own books up in, connect the two of you together, because I think there’s, there’s a need for the two of you to get together because you know, you’ve got a body of work, which needs to get out there.
Jeanine Cerundolo [50:29]
Yeah, that’s how I feel. So I’m sharing it little by little, I have like a blog here and there, but I’m really looking forward to, to making it official. Um, so yeah,
David Ralph [50:39]
well, good luck on that. Okay, this is the Sermon on the mic. And this is the bit where, like time travel, we send you back to have a one on one with your younger self. And if you could go back into a room and see the younger Janine, which age Janine, would you choose? Would it be a five year old, 11 year old or maybe it was just a few weeks ago. So I’m going to play the music, I’m going to remain totally quiet. And you’re up. This is a the Sermon on the mic.
Unknown Speaker [51:07]
Here we go. With the best of the show.
Jeanine Cerundolo [51:27]
Hello, darling, beautiful 10 year old Janine, it’s so nice to see you. For the first time where again, it’s really funny, because in five years, when you’re 15, your high school teacher will have you write a letter to me to you yourself in 10 years, and you’ll receive it at age 25. And you will probably cry, I think you did cry. Because what happens is, you tell me your future self, not to stress to to that you will love and accept me unconditionally, no matter what I’ve been doing, or whatever up to because I am me. And you are me. And to take it easy, be gentle with myself. And I’m astounded by the wisdom you already have at this age. And yet, I want to remind you to take that same dose of your own medicine because there’s so many times that it can be easy to get scared or stuck or feel not good enough. And so I have a poem that I wrote that I want to share with you now that I hope will inspire you at 10 and beyond. It’s called testimonial. Let your life be a testimonial to this. That is it is ok and beautiful to be you. That if you take risks, you might quake and fear but you will discover your bravery that you may wish for years to be everything you might become while the deepest part of you knows you are already mighty, that life is only lived once in this body in this mind. So there is no other choice but to have your soul shine through. Let your life be witness to these that you have feared and faced your dragons and given them each a warm embrace melting all their anger, defensiveness and confusion that you have wept and lost and been broken and have let all of that go. Anything that does not serve like sand between your fingers. You have quaked with passion and trepidation, but taken a bold step anyway. And that it led you to green pastures. But before that triumph was the step itself. Let your life be evidence of the following. That passion is the spark that animates our being and that it is okay to follow that spark and let your life burst into flames. That being a Phoenix is painful and scary, that the explosion can shock you into stillness. But that transformation is one of the most beautiful elements in our world. That your truth speaks louder than your hesitation and that your voice is a trumpet meant to be heralded and enjoyed that your intention is the fuel for all your dreams, and your courage will make them manifest. Let your life clearly state this, that love is the destination and the way that light is the freedom to open to your whole being the shining and the shadow. That destiny is just a yellow brick and a winding road which we create moment by moment, that compassion and service never goes unnoticed nor prayers and answered that grace can bless your every breath and serenity can ease your every ounce of shame. Finally, let your life be a testament to the fact that your tenacity outweighs your terrors. That your bold being out shines your worries that your unabashed itself reigns over fearful ego, that your deep feelings linger longer than your wounds and that your love will fill oceans that your life is witnessed to itself. It’s beautiful, beautiful self.
David Ralph [55:01]
Wow. Well, thank you so much for that. And I hope the young Janine was paying a lot of attention to that because it’s powerful stuff. I can’t really say anything other than you know. Thanks so much for being on the show. And how can people connect with you Janine?
Jeanine Cerundolo [55:18]
Yeah, perfect. On Twitter. I’m right now at zest for the quest. All about loving the journey. On Facebook. It’s Janine, car, un do Hello, or my email is the same j and then CR un do Hello. And the website is also my name calm. So any of those ways are all of the above. I would love to hear from people. I’m very open and very receptive and love conversing and meeting meeting new friends. So
David Ralph [55:47]
well, thank you so much for spending time with us today, joining up the dots of your life. And please come back again when you have more dots to join up. Because that’s the beauty of this show. You can come back as many times as you want, because you’re constantly creating more dots to follow. I believe the only way to build our future is by connecting our past Janine Hello. Thank you.
Jeanine Cerundolo [56:08]
Thank you, David. It’s been a pleasure.
David doesn’t want you to become a faded version of the brilliant self you are wants to become. So he’s put together an amazing guide for you called the eight pieces of advice that every successful entrepreneur practices, including the two that changed his life. Head over to Join Up Dots.com to download this amazing guide for free and we’ll see you tomorrow on Join Up Dots.