Listening Expert Oscar Trimboli Joins Us On The Join Up Dots Podcast
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Introducing Listening Expert Oscar Tromboli
Oscar Trimboli is todays guest joining us on the Steve Jobs inspired Join Up Dots business podcast.
He is an author, host of the podcast Deep Listening and a sought-after keynote speaker.
Along with the Deep Listening Ambassador Community, he is on a quest to create 100 million deep listeners in the workplace.
But what is deep listening actually?
Well for anyone what has been married for more than a few years and get accused of not listening at all anymore, these are the skills when you stop just hearing the words and look for the reasons those words are being said.
You get the backstory of the conversation which leads to greater insight and of course hugely beneficial breakthoughs and accelerated development in offices everywhere.
How Oscar Became A Listening Expert
Through his work with chairs, boards of directors, and executive teams, Oscar has experienced first-hand the transformational impact leaders can have when they listen beyond words.
He believes that when leadership teams focus their attention and listening, they will build organizations that create powerful legacies for the people they serve – today and, more importantly, for future generations.
So what is the first part of listening beyond words which people can bring into their daily conversations from today?
And when did he first realise that there was more to what we allowed into our ears than he had been experiencing previously?
Well lets find out as we bring onto the show to start joining up dots with the one and only Mr Oscar Tromboli
Show Highlights
During the show we discussed such weight subjects with listening expert Oscar Tromboli such as:
Oscar shares his belief that most people in life consider themselves to be great listeners but actually the stats prove massively different.
Why the world is attracted to stories, and by embedding stories into your words you will see a big jump in their effectiveness.
The reasons that intonational quality is such a powerful element to add to your speaking skills to allow for greater listening.
And lastly….
Oscar thought building a business was about developing his skills at listening, but actually it was something more profound.
How To Connect With Oscar Tromboli
Return To The Top Of Oscar Trimboli
If you enjoyed this episode with Listening expert Oscar Trimboli, why not check out other inspirational chat with Cody Berman, Michael F Schein, Sanjay Hegde and the amazing Island Brands USA
You can also check our extensive podcast archive by clicking here – enjoy
Full Transcription Of Listening Expert Oscar Tromboli Interview
Intro [0:00]
Life shouldn’t be hard life should be a fun filled adventure every day. So now start joining up dots, tap into your talents, your skills, your God given gifts and tell your boss, you don’t deserve me. I’m out of here. It’s time for you to smash that alarm clock. And start getting the dream business and life you will, of course, are dreaming of. Let’s join your host, David route from the back of his garden in the UK, or wherever he might be today with another JAM PACKED episode of the number one hit podcast. Join Up Dots.
David Ralph [0:40]
Yeah, good morning. Good morning. Good morning, and welcome to Join Up Dots. Thank you so much for everybody out there who’s connecting with the shows who’s listening to the shows, and also taking those first steps those fledgling steps into creating your own income, and of course, your dream life. Well, today’s guest I’m sure he’s got his own dream live because he’s an author. He’s a host of the award winning podcast, deep listening. And he’s also a sought after keynote speaker on a unusual subject. And he’s also he’s an ambassador for the deep listening community, which is, what is it? What is deep listening? And I know you’re asking, well, but anyone who has been married for more than a few years and gets accused of not listening at all anymore, these are the skills when you stop just hearing the words and actually look for the reasons those words are being said, you get the backstory of the conversation, which leads to greater insight, and, of course, usually beneficial breakthroughs and accelerated development in offices and labs everywhere. Now through his work with chairs, boards of directors and executive teams, he’s experienced firsthand the transformational impact leaders can have when they listen beyond words. And he believes that when leadership teams focus their attention, and listening, they will build organisations that create powerful legacies for the people they serve today, and more importantly, for future generations. So what is the first part of listening beyond words, which people can bring into their daily conversations a prompt today? And when did he first realise that there was more to what we allowed into our ears when he had been experiencing previously? Well, let’s find out as we bring onto the show to start joining up dots with the one and only Mr. Oscar Trimboli. Good morning, Oscar, how are you?
Listening Expert Oscar Trimboli [2:28]
Good morning, David. Looking forward to listening to our conversation today. We’ve got a lot to cover based on that introduction,
David Ralph [2:34]
that that was the bit that I was hoping that you said sorry. I wasn’t listening now. And but but you was focused on the introduction. Deep listening. Deep Listening is one of those things that actually, I think I’m very good at because I come from a training and development background where I used to run training courses. And you were always looking for the reasons why somebody would say something, or the reasons why somebody would act in a certain way so that you could help sort of develop them and push them forward. Now, I feel like I’m good at it. But am I just skating the surface?
Listening Expert Oscar Trimboli [3:14]
You and 74.9% of people we’ve surveyed over 22,000 workplace listeners think they’re either well above average or above average when it comes to listening. And when we interview these speakers and ask them the exact same question only 12% of people think that somebody listens to them well, above average, or above average. So G’day, David, welcome to our first bias that gets in our way, when it comes to listening, self assessment, we don’t really have any verifiable criteria to write ourselves as listeners. And the truth is listening. As you would know, as a married man sits in the ears off the speaker. We don’t create value when we listen, the listening happens when we create the experience for those speaking, I think good listeners, listen to what said, great listeners notice what’s not said, good listeners, listen for similarity and great listeners listen for difference, good listeners. They’ll pay attention during the conversation and great listeners listen before, during and after the conversation. So I want to zoom you back into that training room. When you’re listening, and you’re just talking about what people were saying or where you’re listening really carefully to what they weren’t saying and more importantly, who wasn’t saying it?
David Ralph [4:31]
I’d say yes. On all of that. I’d be listening to who was saying stuff. I’d be looking at the people that weren’t saying anything. I’d be looking at the reasons why they were saying it because a lot of the things that I used to encounter were positive obstacles. People would say things in a positive way of why things weren’t going to work. And there’s always a reason why people feel that way. So I am I mean, I feel I’m gonna throw it back at you Oscar. But when I feel bad, even though I’ve just been scored as not as good as I think, I think I’m pretty good. I’m gonna, I’m gonna prove it through this episode.
Listening Expert Oscar Trimboli [5:12]
About great. Tell me Tell me a story about something, you know that someone wasn’t saying in one of those training rooms, because I reckon that’ll help everybody understand the difference between good and great listening. Because many of us think that listening is about making sense when the speaker is speaking. But here’s a dirty little secret of listening. It’s not your job to make sense of what the speaker is saying. It’s your job to help them understand what they think, and what they mean. Right, let’s go let’s go
David Ralph [5:43]
into that. Because my, I was hanging on that I was deep listening. And I got a little bit confused. So So go into that again.
Listening Expert Oscar Trimboli [5:51]
Yeah. So when you spend all your time trying to make sense of what they’re saying, that doesn’t help the speaker, your job as a listener is to help them make sense of their thinking. And really, to get to what they mean. Let me give you three numbers. When you understand these three numbers, we can hang up and everyone can have a jolly old time because if you understand the application of these three numbers, the neuroscience are listening, listening becomes easy and light. A lot of people complain to me, David, ah, Oscar, this listening caper. It’s difficult, it’s draining, it’s taxing, really, I would not have for him. Here’s the three numbers 125 409 100. And let me explain each and their relationship between the speaker and the listener. When you know these three numbers, you won’t focus on what people say, you’ll actually start to notice what people don’t say, the first number 125, or roughly on average words per minute speaking speed. In an average English speaking Western workplace, you’ll speak between 125 to 150 words a minute. And if you’re a horse race colour or a car yard auctioneer, you can speak at 200 words per minute, we can still comprehend. Because David, you may know the dirty little secret of compliance training in workplaces, people increase the speed of compliance training and still can make sense of everything that’s being said it up to 200. In fact, up to 400 words per minute, because 400 words per minute, is the average listening speed. So right now, if you’re listening to this podcast, you may be supplying it at two times speed, and still completely understand everything I’m saying. The reality is, it’s okay to be distracted while you’re listening to David and I are having a chat. Because like peripheral vision, you have peripheral hearing, and your ability to focus on what somebody’s saying is pretty simple. But you will get distracted because we’re only speaking at about 125 to 150 words a minute. As a result. You’re jumping ahead, you’re solving you’re fixing, you’re making assumptions you’re anticipating I wonder what’s going on for you right now while you’re enjoying breakfast or lunch or doing a chore before we get to 900? David, let’s spend a bit of time with 125 and 400? Because I bet you got some questions.
David Ralph [8:13]
Well, it seems to me on this, I’m already thinking about when I studied speed reading and your comprehension increased massively. The faster that you read it, it was kind of contrary to what I would have thought, you know, slow and steady wins the day, but by actually speeding up you actually retain more of the information. So is this what happens with speaking as well, when somebody actually is going for it? hammer and tongs over? As we say over here? Yeah, the person that’s listening will actually go bloodier, we’re speaking quick, I’m really gonna focus here. So retain more information. Now they
Listening Expert Oscar Trimboli [8:48]
in fact, they do quite the opposite. They go not only can I hear what he’s saying now, but I can jump ahead and I can use some patents from the past. And I know what he’s going to say next. So I might drift away, I might anticipate what he’s going to say next. Because you can process four times faster than they can speak, you’ll basically enjoy a good old time and most people in our research this shows up as drifting, distracting or being vague in a conversation. Yet, here’s the difference. A good listener will get distracted, a great listener knows they’ll be distracted, and they have some very simple rituals to keep them in the conversation. We’ll come back to that one shortly. So this is the crucial thing as a listener. I’m not speaking fast enough for you. Now here’s a bigger problem though. Let’s get to 900 900 is my average thinking speed in a western English speaking workplace average? If you work in a collaborative, creative, confined, competitor competitive industry, you’ll probably be thinking at up to 1600 words per minute. So when you think that I could be thinking anywhere up to 900 words per minute, but I can only say 125 words per minute, it means the first thing that I say is 14% of what I’m thinking. Now, for most people, you don’t actually want to hear all 900 words of what they’re thinking, because there’s some rubbish in there. There’s some very jumbled up thinking. But you probably do want to hear the next 125 And the next 125. And when you do their body shape, or change their head or change position, they’ll probably take a sigh in, and they’ll probably go now that I think about it a little longer, you know what I haven’t told you, David. And all of a sudden the conversation gets right to the point of what they think and what they mean, rather than the very first thing they say the first time. Now, unless you’re working with a Shakespearean actor, stage actor or movie actor who have lines to rehearse the likelihood that somebody’s going to say what they mean, the very first time they say 14%, therefore, it’d be incumbent on all of us to go as interesting as it is to listen to what they say, it’s more important to listen to what they haven’t said, and thus the 125 900 rule, those numbers, David, when we know those numbers, it means don’t get fixated on what they say the first time, help them explore a little bit further and explain what they actually mean. From our research from people we’ve been tracking for the last four years, 14 110 of them, we know this, they say to us, when they apply these techniques, meetings are shorter, on average, by 15%. Who wouldn’t want a shorter meeting?
David Ralph [11:37]
Any meetings? Ask a really? Amen?
Listening Expert Oscar Trimboli [11:41]
And one of the things you could do to shorten the meeting, meaning not to have it at all, is ask this question always before the meeting, not when you’re having the meeting. But before the meeting, what will make this a great conversation? When we when we’re training our deep listening Ambassador community on how to use this phrase, they say that one in five meetings, doesn’t need to take place. So fewer meetings, shorter meetings, when you listen deeply?
David Ralph [12:10]
Yeah, I agree with that. I agree with that totally. Because I used to go to every meeting known to man in corporate land. And when I had a switch one day, and I used to say, don’t I have to be into this, you know, what am I going to gain from this and more often than not, they couldn’t tell me other than it was a nice to be rare. And so my brain was never engaged because I was always thinking, I don’t know the point in being here. Now, what interests me is when I’m listening to you, I’ll give you a classic example. I asked her last night, there’s a guy called Eckhart Tolle, and he wrote the amazing book, The Power of Now, which is kind of a life changing book. And I love his books. But I can’t listen to him because he just droning on. And I’m always, I believe more engaged. When somebody has got a singsong quality to their voice. They put intonation into it, just like you’re doing, you know, you’re presenting yourself on a podcast, with a kind of lyrical musical quality to your voice, which is engaging, is that something that helps to listening as well, when somebody is actually not just droning on in a way that bores you?
Listening Expert Oscar Trimboli [13:24]
I think when you present in a narrow monotone range. And when we’ve interviewed voice coaches on this very topic, you can already hear that you’re mentally detached, when the frequency ranges really narrow as I’m doing right now. Now, rather than continue on in this vein, we know humans connect fastest to stories. And when the storyteller brings a range, brings depth, and brings emotion into those conversations, which means vocal variation, as well as change in tempo and exceptional use of the pause that will pay attention will be drawn into that part of the conversation. Think carefully about how you present information. Here’s a couple of hacks from a listening perspective, as someone who studied listening deeply for 18 years if you have to present and you want your audience to listen to you in a way that makes sense for them, and they’ll be heard, start with a story than lamb with a statistical effect, not the other way around. Unless you know your audience really well. And you’re in front of a room of Actuaries or engineers. That formula will work consistently. Now, by the way, I do work with actuaries. So as someone who failed high school maths, I find it really ironic, David, that I’m brought in to consult to actuaries who spend all day talking about maths and one of the things I love about working with these communities is even that formula in that community with actuaries, as humans, that great listening cultures, other great speaking cultures. So the Inuit of North America, you may know them as the Eskimo, the Maori, the Polynesian, the indigenous communities of Australia, the jungle tribes of the Amazon and the north of Eurasia. They all have this lyrical quality to the way they use stories. So vocal variation is a way to keep somebody listening, because variety engages us, because we can’t anticipate what’s going to happen next.
David Ralph [15:41]
Now, one of the things that intrigued me what you were saying there was that you have developed this into how consulting business. Now, if the majority of people out there think back, they’re good listeners anyway. And certainly, in my experience of middle management, and above, they think that they’re good at anything. What what makes them actually hire you why? Why would they actually look to bring you into an organisation, if we all think we’re good at it anyway.
Listening Expert Oscar Trimboli [16:10]
Three things consistently happen. Number one, they get smacked around the jaw by a regulator, depending on their industry, the regulator will have said, you haven’t listened to your customers, you haven’t listened to the citizens, you’re polluting their rivers, or any variation of that. So number one, regulators who point out that they’re doing well, number two, they’re getting smashed by the media, because they’ve done something that means, oh, well, I’d say hearing complaints,
David Ralph [16:39]
give us an example. Give us a story, keep their names out of it, but tell us what kind of things they’re getting punished for.
Listening Expert Oscar Trimboli [16:49]
Obviously, zoom you in, we were working with an organisation in the financial services industry, and they were working with the contact centre team. And they had these famous Messages On Hold David, you know, the ones at the end of this call, please stay on the line and tell us on a score of one to nine, how you would rate us as an organisation are referring to others. And they had a huge problem there. Nobody was staying on the line to leave any schools behind. They didn’t think anybody would do anything with it. The difference between hearing and listening is action. The same is true with employee engagement surveys, employees hate getting surveyed. And the same thing was happening in this organisation because the contact centre people were getting surveyed as well. So what I said to them was this, as a result of all the surveys, what is something you’ve actually done, and changed as a result of all the scores and numbers and all these calls are being recorded for quality assurance purposes? Oh, they said, Oscar, that’s really easy. Number one. We, we, based on their telephone number, we anticipate what their postcode is, and we match somebody who lives near them. I say great to you tell them that. And they get no. I said, Well, wouldn’t it be great if somebody you were calling knew your local area? And they said, Oh, my God, Oscar. That’s a great idea. Now, David, between you and me, that’s not a great idea.
David Ralph [18:21]
I was thinking the same thing. Yeah, I was thinking the same thing.
Listening Expert Oscar Trimboli [18:26]
Now, here’s the thing. When they implemented this change, the difference between hearing and listening is action. Action is explaining what you did with the information, you collect it and play it back to the people who were there. So when people came in on the call right at the very beginning, they said, David, thanks for waiting on, we wanted to let you know in the last six months based on survey feedback that we’ve been given from people exactly like you were made the following three changes. One, we’ve matched people to the contact centre agent that they’re going to talk to who knows your local area? Well, so I didn’t say they live in that area. They just say they know the local area. Well, number two, they said, based on your feedback, if your credit card is renewing, in the next six months, we’ll set up a reminder so that you don’t have to contact us oh my goodness, I’ve just had to go through the pain of updating my credit card for a completely different reason. Somebody did that for me, I would be so gracious. And then number three, when they talked about what’s the ultimate change that they were going to make, they they sent to these people now you collect all this information everywhere they sent to these people the changes they made every six months if they asked for it. Now what happened very quickly was the number of people who left a score went from below 10% to over 40% Which is fantastic as a starting point. But number two, the contact centre people were really curious about local landmarks and something they could talk to the person who was calling them so they could go, hey, you know, the local pub called the ball and rooster? Well, you know, are you far from that because I don’t live too far from that all of a sudden, you got an instant connection. And rather than a contact centre agent being somebody, I have to give my information to, oh, I might actually bump into them at the elephant and rooster. Now, these are really simple things. David, don’t you think yet most organisations don’t do that, because they’re obsessed with hearing. They’re doing the survey. But that’s not listening, listening is actually taking action on that, in your average day, David, you’re going to be surveyed at least four times, based on a number of transactions you might do during that day. Now, for many of us, we avoid like the plague filling in those surveys, because we have no idea what’s going to be done with that information. The difference between hearing and listening is action. If you take action and tell people that you have, they’re more likely to fill in the next survey as well, it’s a virtuous circle from there
David Ralph [21:08]
is that is interesting, because I know a lot of podcasters who have very successful shows, but then the interaction with their audience is kind of non existent. And they will give them loads of ability to connect with them. I am doing it over time. And for the size of my audience. You know, I do very well for myself, but I don’t get every single listener jumping over and connecting or downloading of free calls or asking to speak to me or whatever. But they listen, and they listen constantly. And then they will email me out of the blue and say, I’ve been listening to every show for the last five years. But this is the first time that they took action. So what is it then, on a personal thing, what is it that stops people actually taking action, when they have been listening intently,
Listening Expert Oscar Trimboli [22:01]
this wonderful radio station called wi I fm What’s In It For Me FM till they care until they actually care. And they have to make the change. The listening isn’t relevant. So a lot of people that I work with get very frustrated. So as a former Marketing Director of Microsoft, I understand that our work as podcasters is a really intimate piece of work. Over time. Something will change in what the listeners life experiences, and you will start to become irrelevant all the way along, you need to create value for them all the way you need to give them a very simple way for you to connect with them. And if you do when they’re ready, they’ll be ready to talk to you. I think the frustration for the podcast host the business owner is I’m doing it, I’m doing it, I’m doing it. And what you’re doing is you’re like an oil rig driller in the middle of the desert, you’re drilling, it’s dirty, its filthy, it’s sunny, it’s windy, you’ve got mud on your face, and then all of a sudden out of the blue. Oil gushes out when it’s ready, not when you stop drilling. You have to keep drilling those holes in the desert David. And I think every episode is another step into the desert, but it’s nowhere as dirty or as dusty or as windy as somebody drilling real oil rigs out there. So just keep in mind is your attention in if your attention then you’re going on, nobody’s talking to me. If your attention is out, let me create great value for these people. And when they’re ready, they’ll be ready. I want to give you a really simple story. I was doing an interview in the United States knee. Thanksgiving, it was in 2018. And this person had started to listen to all my podcasts, interviews. And in 2020, in the middle of the pandemic, he sent me a message and said, Oscar, I never thought we could work together but with the pandemic. Now maybe you can do a workshop for my team via video conference. What I didn’t know this was one of the largest professional services organisations in the United States, and eventually became one of my largest clients. Now the reality is I had no idea, David, I just kept drilling oil rigs in the desert. Now that’s all I did. We’re
David Ralph [24:45]
talking to Oscar we’d be back with him after these words, but I want to delve more into your business. Would you love three coaching expert business lessons and the ability to be surrounded by like minded go getters or building six figure incomes on line for free, or Join Up Dots six bigger Online Business School is now open and showing you how to create a 10k income online per month. So if you’re serious and changing your life forever, head over to join up dots.com forward slash Bisco and register today. And dip you say it’s free. Yeah, I’m sure we did. That is join up dots.com forward slash biz skull. Right. Okay, we’re talking to Oscar and up to this point, we’ve been talking about his skills of listening and helping others develop. But this is a business podcast, Oscar. So when you started, when did you realise that actually what you had was something that you could transfer from potentially the corporate environment to building a business yourself.
Listening Expert Oscar Trimboli [25:49]
I’m not that smart. David, someone pointed out for me, Zoom me into a room. It was a Microsoft boardroom in 2008. There was a 90 minute budget meeting, you know, the ones you hate. Yeah. And Tracy, my vice president at the 20 minute mark stared me straight in the eyes, in the Sydney boardroom. And we were doing a video conference between Seattle, Sydney and Singapore with 18 people. And she stared at me in a way she never has and said Oscar, you need to see me immediately after this meeting. Now, I don’t know about you, David. But when your boss says that, The only thing I’m doing is counting how many weeks of salary I’ve got left in my bank account. At the 70 minute mark, which meant the meeting finished early, which is unusual for a budget meeting. Everybody left the room and Tracy looked at me and said go and close the door.
David Ralph [26:41]
And can I can I just ask you jumping into there when she said that first being? Did your listening skills go out the window? Did you just go into your own world and think oh my god, and everything else became like a wasteland with Tumbleweed? passing you by?
Listening Expert Oscar Trimboli [26:57]
David, I couldn’t tell you what happened from the 20s. To the end of it. Yeah, I can imagine. Yeah, the only thing I could fixate on was my notepad and paper. And I was calculating literally on that piece of paper, how many weeks of salary I had left. And the reason I know wasn’t paying attention because I got a 32% increase in my budget revenue line. Right. That’s how little attention I was paying. As I walked back from closing the door. And Tracy asked me to sit down next to her. And what she said next changed my life. And what she said next, I also didn’t pay attention to she said, Oscar, if you could code the way you listen, you could change the world. Now as profound an insight as that was in that moment. And I only think that Tracy could have made that observation day that the only thing going through my head was I hadn’t been fired. That was the only thing I was thinking about. I wasn’t worried about whatever Tracy said about coding and listening and verb labour. The only thing I could manage to say to her was Tracy, do you mean code or code code? And she said, Oscar, we work at Microsoft, I mean code. Now, from that point on, I’ve become, in my wife’s words, completely obsessed with coding, how to listen. And we’ve researched 22,000 workplace listeners, we’ve we’ve got listening quizzes and games and jigsaw puzzles, and books and podcasts and all kinds of ways for people to access a listening differently. But wasn’t till two weeks later, that I realised there was a business in this, David, because the only thing that was going on in my head for the next 14 days was this. How the hell am I going to manage to deliver in the next four months a 32% uplift? In my budget, I was running a billion dollar budget line. So it wasn’t beer and peanut money. It was a big chunk of change. I had to sort out 10 days later after that meeting, we had the opposite meeting where we had to roll out the budget for all the Australian business divisions. And the CFO Brian said to me, Hey, Oscar next week, could you come and audit my listening in the budget meeting and I just said, Brian, even talking to Tracy I haven’t got time for this listening caper. I got a 32% uplift in my revenue line. And Brian said, Oscar, I can’t help you with the top line, but I can help you with investments to get you there quicker. And I simply said as a good coin operated salesperson. What time do you want me there, Brian? And with that, I turned up with my notepad and paper and I went wow, I saw a lot of triple barrel questions. Wow, he interrupts Wow, he doesn’t ask everybody in the room. And 20 minutes in I realised that I was coding How to listen. And that’s that’s where everything kind of started from there. Do I think there was money in it at that stage? No way. Did I think there was a big impact if meetings could be shorter? You betcha.
David Ralph [30:13]
It’s fascinating base, because so many people have skills that are just naturally given to them. And it is by understanding of its value and its value that other people want. And when it’s something that you can just do naturally, well, more often than not, we turn a blind eye to it, I see so many people who are trying to develop beings, but they’ve got no background in at all. That’s the mantra of Join Up Dots, the dots join up, the experiences lead you to a point where you actually go actually, I pretty much know this already. But that’s when the obsession kicks in. So when the obsession kicked in, how did you develop that? Did you just buy 1000s of books on the subject? Did you just watch YouTube videos? Did you Google it? How did you actually build up that obsession?
Listening Expert Oscar Trimboli [31:07]
Ah, no, I just I just made boatloads of mistakes. I’ll give you a really simple example. I’ve bent, eventually I went, Okay, I’m going to go out. And I’m going to set up my own consulting practice in this area. And I went on there and a variety of courses locally and globally to learn about, they’re so obsessed about the literature, got into whatever YouTube videos exist, and all of that. But one thing I learned really fast, David is, it’s not enough to be good at it. It’s not even enough to be obsessed about it, you have to find it really hilarious. I thought the way I could create 100 million deep listeners in the world was to role model listening. So one of the first skills I had to learn was how to tell stories and how to become a speaker, ironically, because you’re not going to convince people how to listen merely by listening to them, you can just takes a really, really long time. And in 2018, I was sitting down with Dermot in a workshop in a hotel in Melbourne. And I turned to him and I said, Oh my god, Tim and I’ve been writing blog posts and email newsletters about listening and world class listening for two and a half years. I’ve got nothing to show for it. Now termites from Ireland. He’s incredibly elegant, professional, well spoken man. And he said in a beautiful Irish broke he and I’m not going to try and pretend.
David Ralph [32:42]
Go on. I’d love to hear this.
Listening Expert Oscar Trimboli [32:46]
Your age it? Why would you do a newsletter when you could do a podcast? And it was the ultimate face plant moment for me for like, why am I trying to write about listening when I should be podcasting about listening? So that was one of the first really big changes. But then the other things that happened, David was my clients would say, Oscar, your workshops are amazing. But the minute you leave, everyone forgets, could you write a book, I don’t really want to write a book. In my head. I’m going oh, that sounds like a lot of work. Anyway, eventually, I wrote one book, two books, three books. And then one day, we were doing a workshop and we were using sticky notes. And at the afternoon tea break, I was sorting them out. And somebody raced back into the room. And she’s Emma said to me, Oscar, don’t touch my card. And I thought, Wow, that’s a lot of meaning and emotion you’re putting into a sticky note. I told my editor. And I said to hell, this is what happened. She goes are you idiot, Oscar make some playing cards. So we create a playing card. So every product, every service, all the quizzes, all of that’s been developed by me not really listening well to somebody saying something profound. And they have to say it a couple of times before I get it. So David, here’s the thing I’m teaching the thing I’m really bad at.
David Ralph [34:15]
But what you’re good at is actually going, Okay, I now hear you, and I’m going to take action on it. But that seems to me to be the key thing.
Listening Expert Oscar Trimboli [34:26]
Yep. And don’t get between me and an outcome because I’ll definitely get it down to ultra marathon runner, ultra swimmer, I know the value of a plan. And off we go. I think a lot of the time. I’m not really good on the plan. As I mentioned earlier on, I’m not good at math. So I have this thing called this calculus, which means I don’t process numbers really well. And often use that as an excuse in the past and thought, oh, there’s my excuse. Now. It’s my reason and let’s get on with it. And I’m very focused once a once I do that You know, book number three, we just got that one out the door. And it’s been fun going through that process as well.
David Ralph [35:06]
It’s interesting when you say that because we’ve built a business with a client called dyscalculia.me. And it’s about maps anxiety and not understanding numbers. And it’s a small thing where you think to yourself, it’s just something that somebody’s got to deal with. But it’s turned into a really good business based on on the amount of traffic that just flows into it. Because you’re touching on an absolute pain point. And this, this is where I’m, I’m drilling into you here, Oscar, because we’ve all businesses when you can find a pain point, but people actually are looking for the answer for Ben, the business generally flies. But more often than not, people aren’t looking for the answer, because they don’t think they’ve got the problem, which is where I’m interested now with how you got your first client. How did you get your because that’s a big breakthrough, when somebody actually says, I understand what you’re offering Oscar, and I understand that I need back solution.
Listening Expert Oscar Trimboli [36:09]
43 proposals with nose David, they were all about the importance of listening 43 proposals that had academic research and all of that, and everybody said no, proposal 44 was about profitability in shorter meetings, it had nothing to do with listening whatsoever, I was teaching them exactly the same thing. But I was talking to their problem, rather than my solution. So that time for 43 proposals full of nose, where I was just banging my head against the wall, because I thought everybody needed to learn how to listen. But then I realised that what people really wanted shorter meetings more profitability if they were in a commercial context. And if they were in a government organisation that wanted to avoid regulators, they wanted to avoid media attention. And yes, they too, wanted shorter meetings as well. So once I realised, if I actually went back and listened to my research, which the question was, what’s the upside of really good listening in your workplace? That’s what it said. And if I listened to that research, earlier than 43 proposals, I probably wouldn’t have had to deal with all those noes. So again, David, lots and lots and lots of mistakes. But I kept trying
David Ralph [37:27]
is interesting this because I came from a sales background. And, and when I moved into training, I was always a communicator. So for years, I was a cold caller. And I used to just have to phone people and I was at work, I didn’t really want to talk to me, and try to convert them into something. And it was always about knowing their problem, before anything, and then giving the benefits of our solution. But when I see a lot of businesses come through, Join Up Dots. You’re absolutely right. That the whole website, a whole package, the whole newsletter that I get from them is all about the solution. And it doesn’t speak to me because they’re not speaking the language. So is listening once again, you said that you had to learn speaking skills. But is it more to do with actually speaking but words that somebody wants to hear? So that way you’ve been focusing on it?
Listening Expert Oscar Trimboli [38:23]
It’s not just focusing in on on words they want to hear, but what’s the words their boss needs to hear? Because when it comes to my sale, it’s an absolute luxury. And I always have to ask them this question towards the end of the meeting, not at the very end. Hey, David, if you were to summarise everything we’d said today in a sentence to your boss, how would you say it and starting to listen to how people would say it? And in a lot of cases, I would just go Oh, thank goodness, they said that because I haven’t done a good job of communicating a, b, c and d to them, which I’ve got a little bit of time left. So let me do that. And in a small subset, maybe 20% of people, they got it. They understood it. And they went back to their boss and they were likely to be the sales I made. But I think the big thing and I think good sellers beat the competition and great sellers sell a business case they really understand what’s required to get the money for that. I think once I started listening for that, rather than listening to the person in front of me exclusively, I started to listen to who they had to go on take it to to procurement or finance to training to leadership and development. Once I started doing that, there was a predictability to what I did. I’m not saying it was easier, it was just more
David Ralph [39:49]
predictable. Let’s hear from Steve Jobs and we’ll be back with Oscar.
Unknown Speaker [39:53]
Of course, it was impossible to connect the dots looking forward when I was in college, but it was very, very clear looking backward. It’s 10 years later. Again, you can’t connect the dots looking forward, you can only connect them looking backwards. So you have to trust that the dots will somehow connect in your future. You have to trust in something, your gut, destiny, life, karma, whatever. Because believing that the dots will connect down the road will give you the confidence to follow your heart, even when it leads you off the well worn path. And that will make all the difference.
David Ralph [40:28]
So the question to you Oscar is looking back to where you are now. When do you think your dots actually started joining us when When did can you track them back to
Listening Expert Oscar Trimboli [40:41]
our look, honestly, when my parents got married, but I’m not trying to be quick about that they were from two parts of Italy that they should never have got married. And the only reason they got married just because they lived in Australia. And as a result of that, my life trajectory changed dramatically. Because neither parts of the family wanted anything to do with us. We were very isolated. And as a result, my dad got very obsessed about teaching us as kids how to read. So I’d say it goes back very, very, very early on. But for me, one of the things that kind of joins the dots goes back to when I was 12. Well, even earlier, but at 12, I had a werewolf jaw, my jaw was almost a fist forward on my face than what it should be. So as a result, I had to wear braces. Most people at that age wore braces for maybe one or two years, I actually wore braces for seven years to fully retract my jaw back into its correct position. Now as a result, David what it meant was I got really good at asking other people questions and deflecting attention away from my face. And in that moment where I started to ask other people questions, I started to build the muscles of what became the power of coding what was good listening, as I jumped a little bit further forward. While I was still at that high school, I was one of 23 nationalities. We had kids from Eastern Europe at our school, we had kids from South America, we had people from Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam, all at our school leaving war torn parts of the world. And there was an Italian card game called Blue scholar. And I didn’t play it because I wasn’t part of that Italian community, we’ve been ostracised because our parents, Romeo and Juliet, were born in the wrong part of Italy. Now I used to be a pickup player. Now brusca is played in pairs, and you play diagonally across from each other in teams of two. And what happened, the nationalities would play each other. Poland would play Greece, Google, why would play Malaysia, and they’d all speak in their home language, except when I was a pickup player, and they’d still play in their home language, but they’d let their defences down. Because in staying in their home language, they thought I couldn’t understand them. And what I learned was how to listen to body language and notice where their fingers were going on cards, noticing the eyebrow movements, and all of a sudden, they let their guard down. And I was able to become a very good card player. That was the second place. I think that listening showed up for me in that journey as well.
David Ralph [43:22]
So some of that was for a an adolescent growing through quite traumatic, but would you go back and sort of change any of that if you could?
Listening Expert Oscar Trimboli [43:32]
Absolutely not. And at the age of 10, my dad said to me, I’ll skate you become an accountant, you’ll never be out of work. And at the age of 18, I got my first ever job in a chartered accounting firm as an audit Clark and at week six, Robert quant my manager took me aside and said, Hey, Oscar at lunchtime, we need to talk. I just need to do a little test with you. And at lunchtime on that fateful Friday, he read out 20 telephone numbers to me. And I got 16 Correct. And I got four incorrect. And the four that were incorrect word, all divisible by nine. What that meant was I was transposing my numbers because I had just calculus. And what Robert said to me is unfortunately, Oscar, I don’t think you have much of a future in accounting. And two weeks later him and his boss took me out to lunch and had a conversation that completely changed the trajectory of my life.
David Ralph [44:33]
So you’ve had a couple of these Tracy was one and they were another and but once again, you listen to those words and you took action based on them.
Listening Expert Oscar Trimboli [44:46]
While really didn’t have a choice you see with Robin and Bill, Bill said to me asked what do you know about computers and I said, Bill, I have to be honest, absolutely nothing. And in those days in I’m dating myself spreadsheet These were a three pieces of paper, they used to ride on with pencil. Now a lot of people won’t know what that is. But this is how accounting was done in the pre computer age. And Bill said to me, You know what I like about your ski, you’re very honest. I said, Well, Bill, I don’t get a choice. Because I think if I’m not honest with you, I’m gonna get fired either way. And he said, No, look, as long as you tell me the truth, I’ll tell you the truth what I’ve learned about you, you’re a hard worker. And I think you’ll pick up computers, can you instal computers in our accounting firm? I said, Bill, I have no idea, but I’ll give it my best shot. And that sent me off on a trajectory for a career in computers that was three decades long, and took me into some of the most amazing experiences of my life.
David Ralph [45:53]
So what we’ve learned in this podcast is you’ve got to be listening for opportunities. You’ve got to be looking for opportunities, but you’ve got to be willing to go. I haven’t got all the answers. But that’s all right. I’ve got the enthusiasm to make it happen.
Listening Expert Oscar Trimboli [46:07]
And I think there needs to be a bias for action there. And one of the things my dad always said to me, OSCA, you’re never going to be the smartest in the room, but you can always be the hardest working. My wish for you, my son is that you are the hardest working in the room. And sometimes you’ve got to say yes to things that are just outside your grasp. But if you work hard, you’ll be able to reach for them as well.
David Ralph [46:31]
Great advice. That is great advice for everyone. Now, this is the part of the show that we’ve been building up to and this is the part that we call a sermon on the mic when we’re going to send you back in time to have a one on one with that young Oscar and if you could go into a room and speak to him. What advice would you give him? Well, we’re going to find out because I’m going to play the music as I always do. And when it fades is your time to talk. This is the Sermon on the mic
Unknown Speaker [47:02]
with the best bit of the show the Sermon on the mind, the sermon on
Listening Expert Oscar Trimboli [47:19]
winter 2001 and Oscar’s working back light in a room in North Sydney on his right hand side window on level two. You can see the Sydney Harbour Bridge and all the magnificent lights that light up the Opera House. But to his left, he can see a building. That building is the Andersen consulting business today known as Accenture. And in that building is one light that is still on at eight o’clock on a Saturday night. Oscar remembers really clearly his dad saying to him, Oscar, you can’t be the smartest in the room. You can’t be the hardest working. So as I looked across that window, and thought I’m gonna outwork that Anderson Consulting consultant, I know they’re the smartest but I’m gonna outwork them. Nine O’Clock came and we had a visit from Amir, the security guard. And he said to me, Oscar, it’s Saturday night. You’re so young, shouldn’t you be out enjoying? I said, I mean, you look out over that window there. See that Anderson Consulting business? My dad said to me, you can’t be the smartest in the room all the time, but you can be the hardest working. I’m going to outwork that person over there. With that a man nodded to me a Syrian man and he went down and continued his rounds around the building. And he said, as he came back at 1am That evening, he said, Oscar, you’re still working here. It’s Sunday morning. I said, Yes, it may you see that light? He says, Yes, I know. He said, Oscar, can I share something with you? You may not know, thought, Okay. I mean, he goes Oscar, you know, in the Anderson Consulting business, I may have just left that light on my left. And with that, I put my hands in my face and I cried because I realised I’d been chasing a false god. That the Good News asked is you had a strong work ethic, but you had the courage to make the change. Because with that, I packed up all my work. I walked down about a mile to the base of the Sydney Harbour Bridge. And as I looked out, I made a deliberate decision. As important as it is to be the hardest working person in the room. You also need to learn that occasionally, it’s good to be the smartest in the room, too. So try and find a way to join those two dots together, be smart, and work hard. And Oscar, I’m grateful that you learned that lesson because as we look forward three decades, I can see many times you’ve made the adjustment because it’s flexibility, as well as diligence, that’s gonna make a difference in the business you’ve built.
David Ralph [50:05]
Yeah, lovely advice, lovely story as well. Um, so, Oscar, for the people that have been listening today, I know that you’ve got a listening quiz, but you can you can test yourself, how will they find it?
Listening Expert Oscar Trimboli [50:18]
Yeah, please don’t connect with me connect with listening quiz.com and learn about your primary listening barrier. If you visit listening quiz.com, you’ll get a quick report that tells you what’s going to get in your way when it comes to listening, and some personalised tips, about three tips that will show you what to do next, if you jump in, and the listening quiz will connect you with all the resources you need to move from a good listener to a great listener. And from somebody who listens to what said, as well, as somebody who notices what’s not said,
David Ralph [50:48]
Well, we will have the link on the show notes. So you can come over to Join Up Dots as well and just look for Oscar or one of the latest episodes. So Oscar, thank you so much for spending time with us today, joining up those dots. And please come back again, when you have more dots to join up. Because I believe that by joining up those dots, and connecting our pasts is always the best way to build our futures. You are truly a listening expert Oscar, thank you so much.
Listening Expert Oscar Trimboli [51:11]
Thanks for listening.
David Ralph [51:14]
So were you listening to that? Or did you drift off that were you focused in on how he got his business going, how he actually had to be sort of told something was fair, he focused in on other people’s problems, and it got the ball rolling. It’s all it’s all out there in Join Up Dots episodes, we tried to keep it a very free flowing conversation so that we can find the nuggets that maybe we wouldn’t be able to find if we we sort of made it contrived and knew what we were going to talk about at the beginning. But yeah, so everybody out there, your problems in life can be solved. And more often than not, that can be solved by actually just taking action and moving forward. So for anybody out there that is interested in building your own online income that you can control at your own time and come across to Join Up Dots and we will let you know more about that. But just be happy. Stay sexy, and I’ll see you again. Cheers. See ya. Bye bye.
Outro [52:11]
That’s the end of Join Up Dots. You’ve heard the conversation. Now it’s time for you to start taking massive action. Create your future create your life. Easy only you live God. We’ll be back again real soon. Join Up Dots join the gods Join Up Dots join the gods. Jolene, Join Up Dots
