Podcast: Play in new window | Download
Matt Edmundson Joins Us On The Join Up Dots Business Podcast
To subscribe to the podcast, please use the links below:
Click Here to Subscribe via iTunes
Click Here to Subscribe via RSS (non-iTunes feed)
If you like the show, we would be so grateful if would consider leaving the show a review in iTunes as well as Stitcher Radio.
A couple minutes of your time can help the show immensely! Thank YOU!
Introducing Matt Edmundson
Matt Edmundson is todays guest joining us on the Steve Jobs inspired Join Up Dots podcast.
Matt started his business journey in 2006 when he launched an ecommerce brand with the desire to make sales of £10.000 in 4 months.
He did a bit better than this and his store reached £10.000 sales within one week, and by the end of the year, their sales were £400K.
Since then, they have achieved global sales of $75million, that’s over 7 million products shipped.
Matt is now the CEO of the Jersey Company, a group of health, wellness and beauty companies that deliver products and services to over 120,000 loyal customers.
How The Dots Joined Up For Matt
As he says ” I am an eCommerce entrepreneur and coach, a digital business guy who has had more failures than successes; it is just that my successes far out-weigh my failures.
More importantly, I have a great team that makes magic happen.
I’ve got a bit of a loudmouth (in a good way!), and I’m always bouncing new ideas around. I am someone who likes to challenge the ‘norm’ (I call this idea undefault).
If I could afford it I would buy Liverpool Football Club for no sensible reason: I’m just a fan.
My kids would prefer me to buy an Aston Martin, and my wife would prefer me to spend the money on the house (or donate it). Being a family man I exercise the skills of negotiation and compromise: I buy gadgets.
He is here to to share his journey and experience as a real-world eCommerce entrepreneur, and reveal how he turned the chaotic first month of his business into a successful brand.
So how do you battle against companies like Amazon, who are getting bigger and bigger when starting our with a e-commerce business?
And when the failures hit, what made him come back for more and give it another go instead of dropping into business despair?
Well lets find out as we bring onto the show to start joining up dots with the one and only Mr Matt Edmundson
Show Highlights
During todays show we discussed such weighty subjects with Matt Edmundson such as:
Why its so important to focus more on the repeat customers almost more than the first time customers.
Matt shares his belief why fundamentally when building a business you have to tap into the why that makes people buy.
Why people quote Steve Jobs, and motivational content inspiring people to go for the thing they love…but this might be the wrong way to go.
and lastly……..
We discuss how much you can care for your listeners and customers and show meaningful interactions time and time again.
Show Highlights
Return To The Top Of Matt Edmundson
If you enjoyed this episode of Matt Edmundson, why not listen to some of our favourite podcast episodes such as Mark Egan, Ryan Kugler, Greenpal or the amazing Jaryd Krause
Or if you prefer just pop over to our podcast archive for thousands of amazing episodes to choose from.
Full Transcription Of Matt Edmundson Interview
Intro [0:01]
Life shouldn’t be hard life should be a fun filled adventure every day. So now start joining up dots tap into your talents, your skills, your God given gifts and tell your boss, you don’t deserve me. I’m out of here. It’s time for you to smash that alarm clock and start getting the dream business and wife you will of course, are dreaming. Let’s join your host, David Ralph from the back of his garden in the UK, or wherever he might be today with another jam packed episode of the number one hit podcast. Join Up Dots.
David Ralph [0:40]
Yes, hello. Good morning to you and welcome to Join Up Dots. Thank you so much for connecting with us and getting us in your little earbuds wherever you are across the world. Well, today’s show is a bit different because it’s to English people. Yeah, it doesn’t happen very often on Join Up Dots we normally trot across the globe. But today we’re travelling up to Liverpool. Yeah. Today’s guest joining us on the show started his business journey in 2006, when he launched an e commerce brand with the desire to make sales of 10,000 in four months now he did a bit better than this. And he store reached 10,000 sales were beaten one week, and by the end of the year, best sales were 400 grand. Now since then, they’ve achieved global sales of 75 million. That’s over 7 million products shipped. He’s now the CEO of the jersey company, a group of both wellness and beauty companies, but deliver products and services to over 120,000 loyal customers. As he says I’m an e commerce entrepreneur and a coach, a digital business guy who’s had more failures than successes. It’s just that my successes far outweigh my failures. More importantly, I have a great team that makes magic happen. I’ve also got a bit of a loud mouth in a good way and I’m always bouncing new ideas around. I’m someone who likes to challenge the norm. I if I could afford it, I would buy it Liverpool Football Club. save you money might save you money, but no sensible reason I’m just a fan. My kids would prefer me to buy an Aston Martin and my wife would prefer me to spend the money on the house or donate it. Being a family man, I exercise the skills of negotiation and compromise. I buy the gadgets. Now he’s here to share his journey and experience as a real world ecommerce entrepreneur and reveal how he turned the chaotic first month of his business into a successful brand. So how do you battle against companies like like our favourite Amazon who are getting bigger and bigger when starting out with an e commerce business? And when the failure is here, what made him come back for more and give it another go? Instead of just dropping into business despair? Well, let’s find out as we bring him onto the show to start joining up dots with the one and only Mr. Matt Edmundson.
Matt Edmundson [2:57]
I’m all kinds of edified and built up after that intro, David. I’m not gonna lie. That was amazing. Thank you.
David Ralph [3:02]
It is lovely to have you here. So you are up in Liverpool. You don’t sound Liverpudlian. Where did you start your sort of journey where? Where did you pop out of your mum?
Matt Edmundson [3:14]
That was in Derby. So Derby, for those who don’t know, and why would you if you’re outside of the UK, is if you put a pin in the middle of the UK, that’s where Darby is. It’s in the middle of nowhere. And I came to Liverpool after, after sort of a journey to America, I lived in the states for a little while, came back and did University here in Liverpool and just stayed ever since if
David Ralph [3:38]
I’m honest, why would you leave? Yeah, why would you leave is a great place to be. Now, obviously, you’re here to talk about your entrepreneurial journey. One of the things that jumped out at me straight away is you had a desire to make sales of 10 grand in four months. Now, I speak to a lot of people, and a lot of people, and most of them have a desire to make 10 grand in about six years, you know, for four months, it’s quite quick, what made you think that you could hit the ground running?
Matt Edmundson [4:09]
That’s a really good question. What it was, at the time, when we launched the site, we did a little bit of research. And we thought, from the research from what it was telling us, we thought we could probably do about 10 grand in sales. Now bear in mind, this was 2006. So the information that we had available to us is very different to the information that you have available now. And so yeah, our best prediction was 10k. We thought if we could do 10k, we would be on track because we thought if the site could do net sales of around 50 grand a year, that would be a really good target. So 10k for the first four months seem seemed like a good stretch goal for us.
David Ralph [4:46]
And of course nowadays we’re bombarded with data. So was it kind of easier at that time was it you know, because I think so many people get waylaid by the data and don’t actually take action. Were in in the old days, I think you took action. I mean, you you made it up as you go along.
Matt Edmundson [5:05]
Yeah, to be fair, I still feel like that, David, I’m not I’m old school. That’s what we do is make it up as we go along. Yeah. I think you’re right. I think there’s so much information now that people they call it paralysis by analysis, don’t they? And I think you can get so caught up in data. And sometimes the data is useful, sometimes it’s helpful. But, you know, sometimes you’ve just got to bite the bullet and give it a go. And so it was easier back then. Because you didn’t have to think about so many different things like Now, if you’re starting a business, you know, what social media platform Do I need to be on? Do I need to do a podcast? Do I need to do a YouTube channel? Do I need a Facebook page? And that’s before I’ve even thought about my website. And already, I’ve got to work 24 hours a day just to feed content out there. Whereas back in 2006, is like, well, there’s a website coming by or don’t we don’t really care.
David Ralph [5:54]
When I started my podcast, I, it felt like there was three of us. And that was it. And one of them was Ricky Gervais. He’s and he was doing all right. So I let him have a success. And when and then there was two of us by the side. And it really did build like there was no one else podcasting. You know, it was the total Wild West. And now we’re celebrities jumping into the mix who, you know, get 600 million reviews, and I haven’t even launched the show. I think to myself, you know, is it going to hit a peak and then settled down again, are the sort of this celebs and the, the momentum of publicity and celebrity going to dip away and it becomes a level playing field again, what do you think?
Matt Edmundson [6:38]
is a really good question. I mean, I, I’ve, I’ve done three podcasts over the years. We’re now currently on our third show. And I think what wins at the end of the day, is obviously you’ve got to have great content, but you’ve got to consistently have great content. And I think you you’re always going to come back to the status quo. Because after people after six months, they’re going to go I’m out because it was hard work, or I’ve not got the audience or Jeremy and there’s, there’s always some reason not to keep going. And I think those that have got great content, and do that consistently will always win,
David Ralph [7:11]
are you I used to struggle, man, I’ll be honest, I used to struggle in the early days when the audience was there with me, and it was early days. And they sort of they disappeared. And I used to think why they left in her Why Why are they not listening anymore? Why are they not connecting with me? And I realised I was just part of their journey. And for that period of time, they might have been doing a commute when they were listening to podcasts, and they may change their life, you know, as it is. Now, when you’re building a business, like you have, how do you get that recurring business? Because that really is how things exponentially grow? Right? You keep a new build? What are your secrets for? Getting that groundswell that just keeps on increasing?
Matt Edmundson [7:55]
I can have a really good question. I think you’re absolutely right. One of the things that we nailed pretty early on in our own, in our own business, was actually how do we how do we build a good strong repeat customer base, because it’s really hard to get the first, you know, to get the customer to buy from you the first time. So keeping them makes an awful lot of sense, whether that’s a customer buying from you, whether that’s somebody listening to your show, coming back time and time again, whatever it is, those people are always the lifeblood of your business, the evangelist tell everybody else about you. And so I think, fundamentally, you’ve got to do something that absolutely resonates with them as people and their values. So you’ve got to understand your customer, you’ve got to understand what makes them tick. And then you’ve just got to sort of help resonate with them in a way that makes them want to come back time and time again. So you see that with examples like Tom’s you know, Toms Shoes, brilliant example, of a guide is like, let’s make these shoes, but let’s put a story with it. And all of the customers that buy Toms, know that when they buy a pair of TOMS Shoes, that Toms are going to donate a pair of shoes to somebody in the third world, right. And if you have that set of values, then that resonates with you in such a way that you keep coming back, you keep buying the shoes, and you tell all your friends about them. So it’s finding out what makes your customer tickets, finding out what their values are, and doing your business in a way that really, really connects with that. And I think if you can do that, you’ll get a lot of repeat customers.
David Ralph [9:27]
Talking about bird world, I always reflect on the fact that when you see these these harrowing videos of people starving in Africa, the majority of them are wearing Man United shirts. And I always, I always think to myself, haven’t they got it hard enough? Who’s donating B shirts over there over time? fans? Probably Yeah, maybe maybe. But it’s a strange thing. Now, one of the things that we see over here and I don’t know if it’s the same worldwide is the desire for companies, not to Focus on repeat customers, folks classic example, car insurance and household insurance, they give you all the bargains to become a customer. And based on the first year of the renewal, they basically screw you over. And I always go, right, I’m not staying with you and I go off to become a new customer somewhere else. But let’s don’t grow it. And they’re still thriving. Now fundamentally, I feel like shaking their shoulders and saying, you know, that’s not how it’s done. Why are you doing that? Is there a laziness of customers of you know, switching off and just being sucked into the second year cycle? And then going, Oh, I’ll do something about it on the birgir. Is there an apathy that companies can tap into? Or is that just the wrong way of doing business?
Matt Edmundson [10:47]
I think it’s Personally, I think it’s the wrong way of doing business just because it doesn’t, it’s not how I would do it. But I think there is an apathy in with within people not to switch, right. So whether it’s your car insurance, because the aggravation, the hassle, whether it’s your energy supplier, whatever it is, you know that I mean, there are companies now out there who are actually making a really good income helping you switch from one provider to the next. And so the problem this creates, of course, is it creates a market where there is actually no customer loyalty where everybody knows, actually, I’m going to be here for 12 months, and then I’m off I, you know, I it’s, I find it a very, very peculiar way to grow business. And obviously, they’ve done it well. And I think the people that have come out of it really well are people like confused, calm, you know, those sorts of price comparison sites, because they’ve trained everybody, just to keep coming back time and time again. And when when pricing becomes the key motivating factor on whether you buy something which it does through a price comparison website, you in effect, create this race to the bottom. And so you’ve got a discount to get your first customer in. And then hopefully, when they buy from you a second time, which a portion of it well, you’ll make your profits then and and i think that’s just the industry that they’ve created. And I think it would be very, very hard to break from that.
David Ralph [12:05]
Now over here as well. This may not mean anything to people globally, but over here, it will it will have a huge resonance of the power of the Meerkat. And oh, sorry about that. Was Siri joining in? No problem. Yeah, so the Meerkat compare the market you’ve got let’s talk about the to suppose there meerkats and I always argue with my family, whether they’re a same sex family, or they’re the Butler, and, and serban. And we have this argument every time they’re on. Now, fat is a brilliant bit of marketing, that even when I forget about the company, I remember the meerkats it’s become it’s become a like a verb, isn’t it? Like, like Google? And, you know, with your own business? How do you keep yourself sort of front and centre of people’s memory nowadays without the gadgets without the meerkats without those kind of cheesy things? Because it certainly works. But online, I don’t see many people sort of tapping into that kind of that that clever branding somehow.
Matt Edmundson [13:18]
Yeah, I mean, people that, you know, like, do the meerkats have got, you know, way more money than the average internet entrepreneur to sort of figure all of that out. But I think for me, it comes back against tapping in values. I was having a conversation with a good friend of mine this morning. And she’s wanting to launch a website selling vintage clothing. And so we were having a conversation about that, and asking me what I thought and I thought, you know, here’s the thing, if you think about something like vintage clothing, you’ve got a very clear defined market, right? You’re, you’re going after people who want to buy vintage clothes, who believe in that as a concept, right? So already, you’re connecting on a values basis. But you’ve got to remember, fundamentally people on buying clothes, and this is what I had to say, Sure. People aren’t buying clothes from your website as they are. But in essence, that’s not what they’re buying. They’re buying how they look in those clips. They’re buying that all look good, germane that feeling they get when they put something on and they look at themselves in the mirror and they go that’s fab. And I think that’s the feeling she has to tap into. Right? And if she understands that she’s not selling clothes, but she understands that she is selling that, that is how I think as a small business, you can tap into that whole branding, that whole feeling that you get from brands, because you’re totally resonating with people. So we talked about doing things like you know, don’t just send the dress out in a jiffy bag because no one ever no one ever felt great when they opened a jiffy bag with a dress in it right. So could you wrap it up? Could you put it in tissue paper in a nice box? You know, could you put something in there like a postcard that’s on has a message on it, which says, Well, you look absolutely fantastic today or so gentlemen, something like that. Just with a little note on the postcard, even putting a stamp on the postcard, but keeping the postcard blank to sign a little note on a post it note sticking into the postcard and saying, one of your friends needs to hear this today. So why don’t you write a little note in the back of this postcard and send it out, gentlemen, but you’re you’re you’re tapping into that hole, telling someone and helping someone feel great in their clothing. So understand that tap into that. And I think the rest of it will fall into place.
David Ralph [15:38]
I agree. 100%. And so much, I’m gonna give you a round of applause, sir. Because I talk about this time and time again, I talked about it with my clients. And I just I bore people, I bore people. And I say I know hard to believe and know honestly, honestly, you should see my wife, she looks like she’s had a stroke at the time she’s she’s dribbling dribbling out the corner of her mouth. There’s 10 reasons why people buy. And what you’re touching in on vintage clothing is she isn’t buying the clothing, she’s buying the clothing to gain price to feel more loved. And certainly to increase social status. And through our products, people sell the products, but what we should be selling is what’s behind the reason, okay. And for all the people out there that the list is basically to make money, people will buy it to make money to save money, to save time to avoid effort to escape mental or physical pain to get more comfort, to achieve greater cleanliness or hygiene to gain praise to feel more loved to increase social status. And it’s almost like I had Bose embedded into my brain. And I hadn’t just googled him. But that is the 10 reasons why people buy and if you use them to grow your business and just being one, okay, every part of marketing, every part of customer interaction, I’m going to choose three of those 10 that are so important. I don’t think you can go wrong. Really? I really don’t
Matt Edmundson [17:11]
know, I think you’re right, David, I think you’re tapping into the real reasons as to why people do what they do. And the real reason, you know, the classic example is drill bits, you know, people, people don’t buy drill bits, they buy the holes, the drill bit make, you know, I buy a drill bit not because there’s a drill bit, but because I want to put a shelf up or a picture up of the family, gentlemen. Yeah. And it’s, it’s understanding the reason behind it. Why am I doing what I’m doing? If you can tap into that like to say from a marketing point of view, you’ll do super well because you’re everybody else. There’s 10,000 websites out there selling vintage clothing, there’s 10,000 websites selling drill bits. What can you do to stand out? Well instantly you understand why people are buying things and you talk about that you resonate with that. Because fundamentally, people can buy vintage what maybe not been disclosed but they’re certainly buy drill bits on Amazon. You know, Amazon is a soulless website is just a big hypermarket, you know, you go in,
David Ralph [18:06]
it’s great, though in that way. It
Matt Edmundson [18:09]
is I mean, it is what it is. But if you want to compete with Amazon, you’re you can’t be as big as them. And you probably can’t command the same prices that they do, or you probably can’t even do delivery, how they do it, you know, because that they are what they are. But what they can’t ever do is they can’t be your voice. They can’t be that that version of you that authentic self that comes through your business that cares for people or loves people or helps people or whatever it is you’re tapping into. And that’s where you can when
Jim Carrey [18:41]
My father could have been a great comedian, but he didn’t believe that that was possible for him. And so he made a conservative choice. Instead, he got a safe job as an accountant. And when I was 12 years old, he was let go from that safe job in our family had to do whatever we could to survive. I learned many great lessons from my father, not the least of which was that you can fail at what you don’t want. So you might as well take a chance on doing what you love.
David Ralph [19:07]
Going back in time, Matt, I used to work for insurance companies and banks and basically every month on the 18th I would receive my salary into my bank account and everything was lovely. But I was unfulfilled. I was depressed. I needed a challenge. So I decided to go for a challenge where it wasn’t guaranteed that I would ever get paid again. And I might be living in a cardboard box and basking in a corner of the street. Now I did it and I think you did a similar thing you went for something but the rewards weren’t guaranteed. Why do we do that? Why do you think that nowadays so many people will take the risk and so many people are willing to to just go for that. That dream I suppose that online dream because it is certainly is hard to get it going? Well, not in not in four months, you show up. Yeah.
Matt Edmundson [20:03]
Yeah. I wish I could have predicted that one. No, I think you’re totally right. I mean, what you don’t realise is we launched that website in 2006. But from 1998 to 2006, I was building websites in the back of my head, you know, in the back room of my house, trying all kinds of things. We, we built up multiple e commerce websites over the years trying and it was like a craft that we honed. It wasn’t like, I just sort of stumbled across it. I mean, you know, everything was okay. There was a lot of hard work going on behind it. And I think, what tends to happen, have you ever, ever heard the phrase Michael Gerber uses it all the time, the entrepreneurial seizure? Yes. It’s a great phrase, isn’t it just for whatever reason, somebody at some point in time has an entrepreneurial seizure. And I quite like that as a phrase. And I remember, I had mine, I think, when I was a kid, I always knew that I would run my own business. But I also knew that when I was sort of, in my early 20s, I needed to be mentored. And so I deliberately worked for a guy who’s a very good friend of mine, now actually an entrepreneur who mentored me for five years in, in entrepreneurship. And so when the time came to set up on my own, I felt a lot stronger about, you know, what we were doing and where we were going. But I appreciate for a lot of people, they don’t have that luxury. And so I know a lot of people do side hustles, you know, where you work nine to five, you come home, and then work sort of six to nine, or six, or 10, whatever it is trying to build something up. And that works for some people. But fundamentally, like you say, David, at some point, you’ve got to bite the bullet. And you’ve got to take, you’ve got to take the jump, you’ve got to jump in the water. And that usually means no salary. And when that happens, I always use the analogy, like when I was a kid, my dad threw me in the deep end of the swimming pool, it’s not very, you know, it’s not the right thing to do these days, I’m sure social services would have had some insight about it, if I’d have done it with my kids. But that’s how we did it back in the early 70s. You know, my dad would throw me in the water, and I’d either sink or swim. And at some point you you’ve got to take that leap of faith and on the belief that somehow you’re going to make this work.
David Ralph [22:28]
I look back on the leap of baby. And you know, that old phrase about an entrepreneur is the one that leaps and then builds the umbrella or the parachute on the way down. And I think, what needier what any idea why not just stand on the cliff and spend a little bit of time say, you know, reducing your overheads for a period of time giving yourself a runway, getting a little bit of plan, you know, don’t spend any money, but do research. And I didn’t do any of that. I just got a beam up on it decided about I hated the company that I was working for. And and it still goes down in history. You’ve one day before I was going to get a big bonus because I’d been there 10 years, I told him to stick it and I walked out. And and people still mentioned that. Did you really just walk out one day before this bonus? I go Yeah, I did. I just knew that I couldn’t work anymore. And I just had to do that. Bang, I would never go back. I could never ever go back even with the hours and the downs and the uncertainties and, and the the sort of early mornings and the late nights and the times when you’re walking around thinking. I know, people think I’m a bit of a genius here, but I haven’t got a clue. I really I really don’t know what I should be doing next. I would never go back.
Matt Edmundson [23:45]
No, no me that I wouldn’t be able to. I don’t think I enjoy what I do too much.
David Ralph [23:52]
What do you enjoy? What what what what gets us? And he said around but you know what I mean? What what gets you on site? is this? Yeah, yeah.
Matt Edmundson [24:03]
It’s me excited. I think you know what, I’m one of the, like you, David, you can hear it in your voice. Right? You and I think some of the most privileged people on the planet because we love what we do. And I think if you you know you, you hear all the time people quote, like Steve Jobs, you know, and if you can, you know, do what you love, then you’ll never have to work another day as long as you live kind of thing. And then there was a whole movement of people who were working jobs and thought, well, I love yoga. So I’m gonna quit my job and become a yoga instructor. And it all went very wrong very quickly. I don’t think you know, quitting your jobs do what your what you love necessarily makes sense. But I think what happens is, you start doing something and you become you become really good at it. You become so good at it that that becomes your passion. And I think there was a brilliant book called so good. They can’t ignore you. Unlike that, yeah, which talks about this a lot. And it’s that kind of, I think what tends to happen as you as you grow as you go through the trials and tribulations and you face the giants, and you slay them, and you feel good about that, and you, you have the successes and the big wins, and you know, you, you turn over 400 grand in the first four months of your online business without even ever thinking that was possible. And you do all of those things, and it builds something new, which goes, man, I just love this, and you become better and better and better at it. And as you do the more in love you You come with it to the point where you just go, there’s no way I’d ever go back.
David Ralph [25:39]
I was talking to a guy earlier, and we was talking about the danger of building something compassion, because after a while, the passion does leave you you know, and I was totally transparent with him. There was a time I couldn’t bear Join Up Dots, I couldn’t bear talking to someone and it was all kind of I was thinking, do I have to do this for the rest of my life? You know, I built a personal brand is this it? And it became a bit restrictive around me. Now, I think to myself, where 70 free days a month, it’s not that hard. You know, I can I can do three days a month, but there was a time that the passion was definitely gone. And I often say to people do you want to have the life you love, but be accepting of maybe two days a week that you’re going to be doing stuff that you don’t like? Or is it better to be doing something you really do like, but then it becomes a job and you lose the passion for it? What do you what do you think?
Matt Edmundson [26:37]
Eggs? A very good question. And one of the things that I I look at my kids, you know, I’ve got my oldest is at uni, my youngest is sort of still at school. And one of the things that they don’t do very well, which we had to do in the in the 70s. And the 80s was you they don’t know how to be bored. Right. So there’s, there’s always a device that they can pick up and amuse themselves with. And you see this actually, you know, you go to the shop. And we’ve seen this a lot, I think over locked down because there’s been a lot of cues. But when you go to a shop and you get into a queue, people can’t stand just queuing, they have to be doing something on their phone face, but whatever it is, you know, they’re gonna be playing a game or something like that. And I think the reality of life is a good chunk of what you do is going to be boring. And how you cope with that, and how you deal with that, I think reveals a lot about your character. And I think there’s a reason why anybody that’s sort of Gen Zed millennial kind of age range doesn’t stay in a job for very long before getting off to the next one, you know, they’ve been told time and time again, I think they call it the millennials, the sort of the unicorn generation, don’t they? Because they were told from a very early age, you know, you’re going to set the world on fire, you’re going to change history, you’re going to be history makers, and all this sort of stuff. And that’s very difficult to reconcile when you’re in a job. You know, 70%, of what you do is mundane, and a repetitive task or a boring task. And so the what then tends to happen is people equate boredom with a lack of fulfilment. And I think Actually, no, it’s not true. I think we’ve just forgotten how to how to handle boredom. Well,
David Ralph [28:24]
yeah, I love being bored. I do, you know, as I go to airports, and people will listen to the show will know this, I don’t have a phone, I don’t have a landline, I don’t have a phone or anything. So I don’t have anything to sort of pass the time. And I’m quite happy to sit on a plane for like 16 hours and not even turn the telly on in front of me just sort of sit there and sort of zone out. And I think I’ve trained myself to do that. Because as you say, my kids go off to the toilet, and I take their devices in and I say to them, you’re going to be busy in there anyway, you’ve got something to do when you’re in the toilet, you don’t need to and it’s not hygienic, you know, just just leave it behind, but I have to fill up every single second. Now, on that train of thought. Okay, and this this is not what I was expecting to talk about on the show, but your professional Matt you bought it helped me with personal, but let’s carry on with that kind of inability to be bored. I also see there’s an inability for people to stay on track. And certainly in entrepreneurial. There is a big sort of groundswell not even a groundswell. It’s a movement of people that will start something they will buy a URL, they will work like crazy for premiums, not see any results change and go off on something else. And then after three years, I say it doesn’t work. But all what I’ve been doing is sort of pivoting. Do you think that is going to get worse as well when people instantly You know, my kids in the car If I put the radio on, and there’s adverts, they instantly jump onto another radio station and I say, it’s gonna have adverts on bail. You’ve just moved the adverts to a different time, just leave it as it is, but I’ve got to build every single space.
Matt Edmundson [30:15]
Yeah, I think it’s it’s a fascinating thing, isn’t it? I mean, you, you look at things like Apple Music now, which we have, you know, you pay your 15 bucks a month and you subscribe, you never have to buy an album again. But again, when we were younger, you’d buy a record or you buy a CD, or, you know, God forbid, a cassette tape. And you had to listen to the rubbish songs to get to the good. Yeah, you had to listen to the whole album. And, and now because you don’t need to do that you don’t, nobody buys an album anymore. They just they just listened to one song or one track off of that album. I think it’s, it’s, they call it shiny object syndrome domain is to sort of moving from one thing to the next, because the next thing seems a bit shiny. So you’ve built a platform, say on Instagram, and then clubhouse starts, then you’re like, well, now I need to go build my clubhouse platform. And then I need to build Pinterest over here. And you’re continually flitting between one thing and another without getting really good at something. And I agree, I think part of me, part of me likes the idea. I mean, part of my, my whole business philosophy is you have a look at something you don’t know whether you’re going to be able to do it or not. But you see, there’s an opportunity and you have a go, you try it, you see what’s going to happen. And then you pivot and you adapt as you go along as you learn. But I think I think too much. Too much change breeds inconsistency. So coming back to the conversation about podcasts earlier on, those that win are the ones that are consistent. The key to YouTube, for example, the key to creating a great YouTube channel is consistency. It’s just being consistent is the same with Instagram. Just be consistent. And consistent means doing it for more than you know, three months and not seeing any results.
David Ralph [31:58]
Yeah, but it’s more to it as well, isn’t it? Yeah. You know, I’ve dabbled with Instagram. And more often than not, I kind of think to myself, Oh, I don’t really know what to put on there. You know, if you’ve got to have a firm business focus, how is that platform, going to bring people back to your website, or your offer, or whatever, you know, and I did a course on Instagram, just because I was interested in why people were so focused on it, and the colours and the schemes and the amount you pose and that there was so much to it that people don’t understand. And they’re not willing to do the deep dive and find out about it. You know, I hear about clubhouse probably 70 times a day, people will email me and go, Oh, we’re starting something like clubhouse. And we’d like you to be an early adopter. And I go, No, I don’t want to be an early adopter on anything. I’m fed up with being an early adopter, because it’s just another bit of energy that I’m putting out somewhere else. What I like to do, Matt is find out where my results are coming from, and then double down on those things, you know, and so with me, literally, I don’t do anything else other than podcasts and our podcast, podcast, podcast. And when I say I’ve done two and a half 1000 shows people always say well, well done to you. Well done to you. And I always think well it’s not that hard. It’s just that I’m not spending all my time doing all the other stuff. Right people are you know killing their time we’ve so they only do seven in pre year’s or one if you’re Meghan Markel gets paid a billion pounds by Spotify, and did one podcast drives me mad. I haven’t even listened to it. It drives me so mad.
Matt Edmundson [33:44]
Yeah, that’s the power of celebrity, isn’t it? But you’re right. I mean, see, but you talk about your podcast. What are you doing? You’re showing up every week? Well, that’s consistency. And you’re putting out good quality content. You’re not you know, there. There are a few weeks where you feel better about it than others. But the
David Ralph [33:59]
Oh no, I love every week. My I love every week. Everything is the amount of Emmys that I have lined up on my doorway and Golden Globes because of this podcast. It’s become embarrassing. It really has.
Matt Edmundson [34:14]
Well, good on you good on you. But you see, there’s the thing isn’t it’s consistency. It’s fine in a platform that works for you, that works for your audience, something that you can do on a consistent basis and show a path. And that’s the key, I think, and it’s the key with businesses, the key with social media, it’s the key to marketing. Where are your customers? What what’s going to connect with them? What can I do well, where do those things overlap? And how do I do this consistently.
David Ralph [34:39]
I was talking to a guy last night called john Barton and john Barton is a listener of the show. And he’s got a cleaning company in Devon. And so he goes around and he cleans curtains and sofas and all that kind of stuff. And he came through and he wanted to discuss sort of SEO and I said to him, you know, forget SEO Think about your local streets. Think about the nearest customer to you, which is probably your next door neighbour, they’re sitting on a sofa, they’ve got curtains, why don’t you get 4000 leaflets printed up for 14 pounds and just do a leaflet drop, you know, put the information directly to where they are. And he would his business, it’s thriving, he’s doing very well. But he was already thinking, you know, it’s got to be online, it’s got to be global. It’s got to be his Facebook ads, and Google ads and all that kinds of stuff. And I said to him, ultimately, everything’s about building relationships with the right people. And so how do you connect with them the most, and for me, a business like that is to walk down the streets, and then put things directly through their letterbox, and, you know, get repeat customers that way. With your business, is there an ability to go back to basics as well? And actually do the kind of business build that we used to? Or is it always going to be online? Sort of, um, you know, ads and ad spend and that kind of stuff?
Matt Edmundson [36:09]
I think it’s going to be both David, if I’m honest with you, I think you can do it, where you just build using Facebook ads and Google ads, but it’s an expensive thing to do, you know, using customer acquisition. Like that. So it is possible. And we do do it, I would be remiss of me to say that we don’t use Facebook ads, or Instagram ads, or YouTube ads, or an all of those kinds of things, because we do. But I think like you say, fundamentally, business comes down to relationship and Instagram ads are great at getting the customer in the door for the first time. But what’s going to get them in the door the second time when you know, an Instagram ad might work. But fundamentally, did they have a really good experience with you when they shopped with you the first time? And if the answer is yes, then you know, using relationship to build it to build a good customer base. It still it still works. And that includes getting on the phone and talking to them. It includes sending them emails, it includes doing all of those things that you know to do, you know, we used to do this thing years ago before this was sort of pre internet. Before we started doing digital stuff to grow a business, I would send a letter out to customers or potential customers with a fork sellotape to the piece of paper and saying, Listen, you pick the restaurant, I’ll pick the bill. And the fork was just kind of, you know, something silly about the fact we’re going to have a meal, and let’s get together and have a conversation. And that that still works. That’s the more you can have that relationship, the more you can talk to customers, the better off you’re going to be, you know, it’s the fundamentals of sales, isn’t it?
David Ralph [37:46]
Is and it blows me away. And I think I think I was there as well, I think I, early doors, I was very much thinking, Oh, I can create websites and a personal brand and not really interact with people, I could just sit in the garden in my lucky underpants, and be happy. But now I think people are surprised how much time I spend talking to listeners of Join Up Dots on zoom, and trying to help them and support. And I’ve spoken to quite a lot of people they go well, that’s the bottom of your business. And I go Yes, because that’s building relationships. And relationships are key to business. It’s not all about podcasts. It’s not all about Facebook, it’s not all about it is understanding your client base and and talking to them. And I don’t think I will go away from that. I think it’s too valuable to me. Because otherwise you can get a bit isolated. And you can start thinking but that’s what people want. But ultimately, they they’re quite simple. I mean, we’re all quite simple in business. Really do you man. Yeah.
Matt Edmundson [38:52]
Well, yeah, I’m a very simple creature about it, you know? And I think you’re right. I think people just wanting what is it that phrases and people don’t care how much you know, until they know how much you care? And I think that’s
David Ralph [39:05]
good. That’s good. Say that again, everyone. jot that down that will that will get you in bed tonight when you share that with your partner.
Matt Edmundson [39:14]
Yeah, people don’t don’t care how much you know, until they know how much you care. And I think the internet is a place of Look at me. I’m really brilliant at whatever it is that I do. And there’s I see 1000s of them come and go every year, but the ones that stay around are actually the ones that care for people and they care for their tribe, their audience. And I think if you do that people know that you care. And you’ll have customers for life.
David Ralph [39:43]
How do you do that? Matt? Without getting burned out? How do you not open the gates and you release that cracking? And you’re just on zoom or you’re doing phone calls all the time? How do you stop the burnout occurring from caring too much, I suppose.
Matt Edmundson [40:02]
Yeah, I think it’s an interesting one, isn’t it? And I think a lot of it comes down to little touches, you know, very little touches, even, for example, when we would send out orders, just putting a handwritten note, just a handwritten postcard or something in that order, takes 10 seconds for the guy in the warehouse to do it. Well, that, that just shows that you care, right? So what can you do that shows that you care, you can send people notifications on their their birthday in the same Happy birthday. But again, you can do things where you don’t necessarily have to have in depth zoom calls. But you know, I know, for example, when my friends have a birthday, everybody now goes on Facebook and says, oh, happy birthday on their Facebook feed, because it’s easy and convenient to do. So. It takes me 2030 seconds, take my phone out and record a video just going, Hey, Fred, happy birthday, hope you have a great year really enjoyed getting together with you a couple of weeks ago, where we laughed hysterically about, you know, whatever. And you send that as a video, which is going to be more meaningful. And I think, I think if you look and search for meaningful meaningfulness, for me is a big key word at the moment. And I think if you can do that, you create these moments for people where they where you show that you care, right? And you can care for people through the content that you put out. So you talk about your podcast, why is your podcast successful? Why is it gone for so long? Well, because you’re listening to the people that listened to the show, and you’re talking about the stuff that they want to hear about, right. And you know that because you’re talking to them. And so you’ve you spoke to one person over here to give you an idea, you put a show out based on that content, and all of a sudden, three or 400 people or three or 4000 people or three or 400,000 people, whatever the audience is, all of a sudden goes, You know what, David really cares about this topic, he’s really passionate about it, and I care about it, therefore, I like him, right. And you can you can connect with people like that as well. Now,
David Ralph [41:58]
let’s hear the words from Steve Jobs.
Steve Jobs [42:00]
Of course, it was impossible to connect the dots looking forward when I was in college. But it was very, very clear looking backwards. 10 years later. Again, you can’t connect the dots looking forward, you can only connect them looking backwards. So you have to trust that the dots will somehow connect in your future. You have to trust in something, your gut, destiny, life, karma, whatever. Because believing that the dots will connect down the road will give you the confidence to follow your heart, even when it leads you off the well worn path. And that will make all the difference.
David Ralph [42:35]
Now, of course, what he’s saying there is you’ve got to trust and you’ve got to do stuff and gain experience. Because the more experience you can gain, the more the dots do join up. It’s very easy to just sit on a sofa watching Netflix and say, nothing ever happens. That’s good. Do you look back on your life mat and think Yeah, there was huge leaps of faith? Or was it just a series of kind of small, almost unnoticeable dots that have got you to where you are?
Matt Edmundson [43:07]
So I’d say it’s both I mean, there were huge leaps of faith when I you know, when I got married, for example, or when you have kids, you can you take massive leaps of faith in you. But I think so much of life is like if people ask me this all the time, you know, you’ve got this multimillion pound online business going on. Where did that start? And I’ll tell you exactly where it started. It started in 1998, I was having a conversation with a friend of mine, who said to me said, Listen, my church needs to get one of these website things that I keep hearing about, right? websites were just starting to become like well known. And he’s like, I think we should get one who can do it? Well, at the time. I knew one company in Liverpool that could do it. They’re good friends of mine, but man alive did they know how to charge because back then creating websites was incredibly expensive work. And so I said, Listen, there’s some software out there, which you can get. And you know, if any listeners listen to the show, remember the old Dreamweaver software, they’ll know what I’m talking about. And I said, there’s some software that I think you can get, I tell you what, if you buy the software, it was like 800 bucks, I’ll create the website for you. Because I just want to, I just feel like I want to learn how how websites work. And I want to understand how to code a website. And so he said, Alright, let’s do that. So he bought me that software. And I created a website for his church with the very first website that I did. It all starts. So this whole journey for me started with me having a conversation with a friend of mine, and me seeing an opportunity and just having a go That was a very small step. I didn’t know at that point. And envisage where I’d be like Steve Jobs says, you know, 2030 years down the line. But at that very point, I was like, let’s have a go at this and see what happens and it intrigued me and we we made the agreement and it all worked fine. And so here I am, you know all these years. Laser just as a direct result of that small step.
David Ralph [45:03]
And the weird thing is, you know, people say to me now Oh, yeah, you were born to be a podcaster. We can see it now, but they didn’t see it when I started. And, and it was almost like, an embarrassment, what you’re doing that for, you know, and I remember, I remember being embarrassed about it myself, you know, and I, I fortunately, I spent 1000s, building a recording studio at the back of my garden, because I thought I didn’t have the competence to sit there with my family listening in, I had to sort of separate myself to be that different person. And that’s one of the things that I think sort of holds back people. They can’t see with dots, how they’re going to join up. But they also fail to separate themselves, and give them closure from where they were, you know, they need to almost create a new environment, fill it with new people that are doing what they’re doing, or want to do. And then with a fair wind, you know, they can start moving forward little by little.
Matt Edmundson [46:03]
Yeah, yeah, I think I think you’re right, I think it’s an interesting one, isn’t it, you know, and just the power of the small step, just putting one foot in front of the other just the power of seeing an opportunity and have like you saw, let’s try this podcast thing. There’s an opportunity here, I don’t know what’s going to happen, but I’m just going to have a go. And I think so often, you know, when we were kids, that’s how we learn how to walk is how we learn how to colour stuff in. But as we get older, we hear lessons about when you’ve got to have a goal, you’ve what’s your big, hairy, audacious goal, you know, what’s the, what’s the SMART goal you’ve got? What’s the 14 step plan, you’ve got to achieve this. And as a result, we’ve been put off doing things because we can’t see the end from the beginning, we’ve not got the goals, we’ve not got the whole strategy document laid out. We just go. No, I feel strongly about this, just to have a go and see where it takes me. And actually, I’m not. I’m not afraid to fail if it goes wrong when it goes wrong. But I think I just need to have a go. And, and not I mean, not that the other stuffs bad, don’t get me wrong, and not the goal settings, but is in its place is great. But I think sometimes we talk ourselves out of taking these steps because we don’t have what we think we ought to have. I remember. I remember one day a young girl came to see me She said, Listen, I Can I grab half an hour of your time. I’ve got some questions. I want to start my own business. And I’ve got some questions that Sure, come on and see me and we sat down. And we had this board table. And I’m sat there at the board table where the game right? How can I help you? And she says, Well, listen. Let me just get a few bits of paper out of my bag. And so she gets these pieces of paper out of a bag. And she puts them all I mean, literally filled the board table with all these different pieces of paper, you know, bank mandates, government forms black, just myriad of paperwork and says, I just don’t know where to start with all of this. Where do I start? What piece of paper Do I need to fill in first to start my own business? And I said, hang on a minute, I feel like I can help you really well here. And so I went and I grabbed the wastepaper basket, and I scooped up all the pieces of paper. And I put them in the in the bin. And I said, Listen, nigo You don’t need to do any of them just start. And if in six months time you’re doing well, then come back. And we’ll start talking about all these different pieces of paper. But until then, don’t panic about it. And it’s just this power of the small step, I think is is one of the keys to sort of being successful in business personally.
David Ralph [48:36]
Yeah, when I launched Join Up Dots, I didn’t ever even have a microphone, I launched this sort of podcast and started inviting guests on. And I had nothing It was it was just an idea in my head. But I did it that way. So that when people say yeah, brilliant, I come on the show, but it didn’t even exist, I would be forced to do it. And it was that kind of like I’ve set this up. Now, where do I get my microphone? Where do I do this? And you don’t have to spend a lot of money. You don’t have to invest? You know, in anything, really. But you do have to invest in knowing yourself. And I think that is where the key comes to it. You’ve got to think okay, if this doesn’t go right, in five years time, I’ve I let myself down. And I think the majority of people will point the finger at themselves. You know, I don’t see really how, and I know people do fail. Of course they fail, but I don’t see how anyone can fail if I keep going. Yeah,
Matt Edmundson [49:35]
that’s very true. I think again, we I think we have to look at failure and redefine it. You know, failure for a lot of people means the end. And actually failure just means that you know, what is it Edison failure? He said that he found 10,000 ways the light bulb wouldn’t work before we found that one way that it would and I think how true that is or not I don’t know. I think the idea though, that concept is good. It’s like you need to read Frame failure, I think in your head if you’re going to be a successful entrepreneur, because you’re going to fail a lot. And actually, it’s getting to a point where you welcome failure as much as success, because you can learn from that just as much as the success. Yeah. And there’s a brilliant book on this. I don’t know, if you’ve read black box thinking, you know, it’s a, it’s a fascinating book it, it contrasts, he contrasts in the book, the airline industry and the medical industry in the States, and how the whole medical industry tries to cover up failure, especially in a litigious society, Germany, where you feel like you’re going to get sued, whereas the airline industry looked at failure, and when no, we need to learn from this. And so the airline industry, in terms of its safety record has come on leaps and bounds. I mean, massively because it analyse failure and where things went wrong, it wasn’t afraid to do so. And he contrasts that brilliantly with the health sector in the States, and how their approach to failure is very different. And as a result, it’s holding them back massively. And I think it’s actually quite true for our businesses. And we, when we reframe failure in our minds, when we when we look at that and understand that and not not being afraid of it, but actually not I mean, not searching it out, but welcoming it when it does turn up. I think for me, like say is key.
David Ralph [51:20]
And it’s kind of you know, it’s funny in it, you look back at things now, and you didn’t think they were funny at the time. But it adds to your story, doesn’t it?
Matt Edmundson [51:29]
Yeah, it does. They there’s a great phrase isn’t there? There’s no test. There’s no testimony without a test. Yeah. And I think you know, you just to have that story. No one ever goes to the cinema to watch a story of the guy that you know, his life went really well from day any and he found the beautiful girl and had the beautiful kids and he lived in a beautiful house. And then he died. Here insisted no one cares, right? We like my story
David Ralph [51:56]
will ever be made. Matt, you’ve just you just told my story in one one fell swoop.
Matt Edmundson [52:03]
Sorry, but sorry, to burst the burst of all there. But yeah, I think there is the we need the conflict. And we need the drama. And that’s what makes the story interesting. And actually, you know, you when you talk to guests on the podcast, and when you have guests, the things that you that actually are interesting, yes, you’d like it when they give you some great advice, but you love to understand where they screwed up. You just you kind of because that makes everybody feel human, it makes you feel better. And how did you overcome that? And how did that work? I think they’re the things that captivate us.
David Ralph [52:35]
Well, just before we send you back in time on the Sermon on the mic to have a chat with your younger self, where is your business heading? Now? I’m always intrigued at best bet where you could be just going Oh, I just sit there and watch repeats of the the Champions League Final 2005. You know, we’ve liveable time and time again. What do you actually focus in on when a lot of the issues that people struggle with by paying the bills, the financial elements are kind of sorted?
Matt Edmundson [53:08]
Yeah, I think yeah. Yeah, one of the things that you can never do is just rest on your laurels. I mean, the business that you mentioned at the start that started in 2006, actually, not that I’ve announced this publicly. This is the first show that I’ve done that that business was sold last week. So we’ve we’ve now moved on from that business. And I think the guys that have bought the company are going to take it to new heights, they’re going to be able to inject some fresh blood with it. And I think that’s great. And you know, I we’ve got a whole bunch of projects in the pipeline that we’ve now got the capacity to do and start and to dream about again, and I just love for me the startup, that’s where I that’s where I get the most excitement, that’s where I get the most fun and enjoyment out of it. So. So for me business, in effect is starting again this week, compared to two weeks ago. So I think it’s, I think, for me, it’s not resting on your laurels. It’s not just assuming that tomorrow is going to be good, because today was good. It’s it’s always looking at what can I do to change the world? What can I do to connect with people? What can I do to express my personal values out there in the world that’s going to help people change humanity? And and actually make my kids proud, right. So if I can answer those questions, I’m going to do super well.
David Ralph [54:30]
Now your kids are already proud of you, you know, the football team you support. You’re letting yourself down there. You should be ashamed. But but other than that you’re doing you’re doing all right. Well, this is the bit of the show that we’ve been moving on to that we called a sermon on the mic when we send you back in time to have a one on one with the young man. And if you could go back in time and speak to him. What kind of advice would you like to give? Well, we’re going to play the theme and by the magic of the music, you’re going to be transported back. And it’s your time to talk. This is the Sermon on the mic.
Outro [55:12]
We go with the speed of the show.
Matt Edmundson [55:30]
Wow, I love that intro. I could I could listen to that all day long. So what would I go back in time and tell myself, I think I’d go back in time and tell my eight year old self that actually keep doing what you’re doing. Because it was then I started to understand business. And I started to get my head around it. And I started to buy things and sell things to my friends. And I’d say just keep going, just enjoy that. And don’t let people talk you out of it. Because I think when you’re a kid, people talk you out of things too soon. Other bits of advice I’d give myself I probably go back to myself in the early 20s. And say, Don’t ever buy property? Don’t you’re not going to do property? Well, there are other people that do property really well, you’re going to lose a lot of money in property. Don’t do that. Don’t do that. But the rest of it, I think, what advice would I give myself stiff that I’ve, I’ve told you already, I think it’s okay to fail. And actually reframe failure from an early start, because it used to, I used to feel quite condemned with failure. And I used to be able to, I used to find it really difficult to talk about it when things didn’t work with, with friends, like in the pub, especially if their business or their life was doing better than me, Jermaine, and that whole comparison thing, I would struggle with that. And actually, I don’t need to, at all. Practically, whenever you set a business up, always, always, always have a shareholder agreement in from day one, including with your good friends, because it will save you a lot of heartache down the road, trust me on that one. That would be something that I would definitely want to do. And then I think probably the final piece of advice I would give myself is actually my wife. My wife knows more about business. And I think even though she’s not had any formal training, and this is something that I’ve learned over the years, actually, is to listen to my wife, because her gut reaction to things is usually bang on and, and to not be offended by that. But just to go. Actually, this is really wise counsel and I need to understand this super, super well. So I think they would, they would be the bits of advice that I’d tell myself. Other than you know what you’re gonna be okay. Life is gonna be good. You’re gonna enjoy it. Work hard at everything you do. Because that’s what’s gonna be the big difference in the end.
David Ralph [57:52]
Now great advice and great advice for me because only the other day My wife is giving me business advice. And in my head, I was thinking I’ll shut up. Shut up. Shut up and leave me alone. But I didn’t know
Matt Edmundson [58:08]
that could you possibly understand what I’m thinking or going through right now you don’t leave me alone. To come back. Go.
David Ralph [58:15]
Did you want another custard cream? I have another custard cream that shut you up and down. And we’re on our way, man, what’s the number one way that our audience can connect with you?
Matt Edmundson [58:24]
Yeah, if people want to reach out Connect, be great to do so just everything to do with me is on my website, Matt edmondson.com. All the social media links that I do, you know, Instagram, Facebook, on there if you want to reach out that way. But yeah, if you just head on over to Matt, Mr. Calm and connect with me through one of the channels linked on that website. Be great to hear from me.
David Ralph [58:45]
We will have all the links on the show notes. Matt, thank you so much for spending time with us today. joining up those dots and please come back again when you’ve got more dots to join up because I do believe that by joining up those dots and connecting our pasts is actually the best way to build our futures Matt, thank you so much my brilliant Thanks, David really, really appreciate it totally enjoyed it. Mr. Matt Edmondson. So he started a business as he said, just by starting a website and now he’s got a multi million pound business and it wasn’t part of the plan but the plans are kind of rubbish really plans stop creativity plans, stop inspiration plans stop desperation, I suppose. And little by little where now you know, he just sold to businesses moving on to something new. And it all started with that. Let’s do something even though I didn’t know what I was doing. And in many ways, that’s the metaphor and the mantra for Join Up Dots. Okay. Thank you for everybody who’s listened to this show. Anybody wants to connect with me and have a half hour chat on zoom when I want to give you some business advice or we can get a business idea going or just to say hello is up Always a delight, you can come over to the Join Up Dots website and collect on the contact page and choose a way to talk to me. Until that time, I will hopefully be in your ears anyway and in the next podcast so you’re looking after yourself as always stay sexy and I’ll see you again. Cheers. See ya. Bye bye.
Outro [1:00:19]
That’s the end yet. Join Up. Dots. You’ve heard the conversation. Now it’s time for you to start taking massive action. Future create your life easy only you live. We’ll be back again real soon. Join Up Dots Join Up Dots Join Up Dots Join Up Dots jolina Join Up Dots