Welcome to the Join Up Dots Podcast with Matt Johnson
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Introducing Matt Johnson
But that is just a bit of what he does as he says “Right now, there is a group of people running the business of their dreams.
Building an audience, working with clients they love, and serving them profitably.
How The Dots Joined Up For Matt
They are thought leaders in their field.
Are they famous?
Depends on who you ask.
They aren’t signing autographs at the grocery store.
They aren’t taking selfies every five minutes.
They aren’t trying to be everywhere on social media.
Yet when they show up at industry events and conferences, they are recognized and sought after.
What’s their secret? They have become famously influential to the right people. And so can you.
My mission through the MicroFamous podcast, upcoming book and our podcast agency is to launch new thought leaders into the world.
MicroFamous gives you a new strategy to attract an audience, build influence and create ideal clients – systematically.
So you can teach, train and lead people without being locked into a business you hate.
During the show we discussed such weighty subjects with Matt Johnson such as:
Why it is so important to find a deep niche and go with a subject that isn’t saturated or main stream. The riches are in the niches.
Matt shares why he is reluctant to travel the world and attend conferences preferring to be famous in his own tight community.
Why there is a ground swell of people now who are dropping away from using social media and focusing on the smallest crowd possible.
We wax lyrical at the bad advice that people are receiving when it comes launch a podcast, and what we would do to make it different.
How To Connect With Matt Johnson
You can also check our extensive podcast archive by clicking here – enjoy
Interview Transcription For Matt Johnson
David Ralph [0:01]
Once upon a time, there was a guy with a dream, a dream to quit his job, support himself online and have a kick ass life. Little did he know that dream would lead him into a world of struggle, burnout and debt, until he found the magic ingredient and no struggles became a thing of the past. I of course, was that person. And now My dream is to make things happen for you. Welcome to Join Up Dots.
When we’re young, we have an amazing positive outlook about how great life is going to be. But somewhere along the line we forget to dream and end up settling in Join Up Dots features amazing people who refuse to give up and chose to go after their dreams. This is your blueprint for greatness. So here’s your host live from the back of his garden in the UK. David Ralph.
David Ralph [0:53]
Yes, hello, a good morning. Good morning, everybody and welcome to Join Up Dots. Thank you so much for being with us. And I really Do me now. I say that time and time again, but you can keep your ears too many different podcasts and hosts out there. So the fact that you’re plugging me in, I really do appreciate it after so many years to Well, today’s guest who we’ve got on the show, yes, it’s a guest show today. It’s not just me rambling on his market here. He’s an entrepreneur. He’s a podcast expert, and he’s a musician and he joins us from a podcast pa and production agency based in San Diego. They’re an international team that helped business coaches and consultants break in and dominate their niche through podcasting. Now, he currently hosts niche business podcasts, and recently launched the podcast pitch assistant programme to help experts get pitched to podcast consistently. There’s a lot of peas in here without doing any of the back end work themselves. He is a frequent podcast guest and event speaker to audiences around the US, Canada and Australia. But that is just a bit of what he does as he says right now there’s a group of people running the business of their dreams building all the audience working with clients they love and serving them profitably. They are thought leaders in their field. I famous, he says, depends on who you ask. They aren’t signing autographs at the grocery store. They aren’t taking selfies every five minutes and they aren’t trying to be everywhere on social media yet yet. When they show up at industry events and conferences, they are recognised and sought after what’s their secret that become famous the influential to the white people? And so can you he’s mission through the micro famous podcast upcoming book and his podcast agency is to launch new thought leaders into the world micro famous gives you a new strategy to attract an audience build influence and create ideal clients systematically so you can teach train and lead people without being locked into a business you hate. Brilliant. So what does it take to be micro famous online in today’s oversaturated world and where do people go wrong focusing in on quantity or content or not the quality. Well let’s find out as we bring onto the show to start joining up dots. The one and only Mr. Matt Johnson. Good morning Matt. How are you?
Matt Johnson [3:15]
I am awesome. David, thank you so much. That is a mouthful of an intro holy cow but I’m super pumped to be here.
David Ralph [3:23]
It was I didn’t realise how many peas were in there but I was I was podcasting and podcast pitching and programmes and stuff. It was you know, when you you you’ve got a podcast, a microphone that you’ve been a hope it doesn’t pick up all the explosions. And there’s going to be a load of explosions with that one i think.
Matt Johnson [3:42]
But we’ll get through it. I don’t think you have to worry too much about it. So your audience is fun.
David Ralph [3:49]
So let’s get into this because this is fascinating because you’re doing a lot of stuff in the podcasting world which is great and it’s it’s blowing up exponentially when when I started back in 2014 I think there was me, Ricky’s your buddies. And and some guy called jld. But whatever happened to him? I don’t know. But um, and it seemed like there wasn’t many of us, but the call quality was better. Now this is a leading question, because one of the things that I don’t like about the podcast world now is everybody says they’re a podcast host. Everybody is launching a podcast. And my audience is probably fed up with me saying this, but I think most of them shouldn’t, because they just, they just haven’t got it. It’s just like something else they’ve got to do for their business. Do you feel the same?
Matt Johnson [4:37]
You know, I don’t, but I have a very specific view on podcasting. And I think you’re right in the way that they’re going about it. They shouldn’t be going about it that way. Because what I see is everybody’s going after the mainstream. And I don’t mean like necessarily the mainstream that listens to Joe Rogan, for example, but like the mainstream that listens, that the mainstream of their their industry, their space, and you’re right, in the sense that everybody This launching a podcast that the tendency like the temptation is to run to the middle. But to me the riches are in the niches. So I think there’s room for everybody out here in podcast land, but it’s about getting the right niche. And it’s about figuring out who are the right people for you and going after them like a laser, and creating in the podcast that that is actually missing, like the podcast that those people are looking for. And I think if you do that, there’s plenty of room.
David Ralph [5:26]
I was listening to a podcast before we connected and when I started back in 2014, the guy who influenced me was a guy called and he’s in San Diego, Michael O’Neill from the solopreneur, our podcast, and he he had just launched, yeah, he had just launched when I was planning to launch so I was like, clued up on every word. He said, so I listened to his podcast afternoon and he was talking to a guy and the guy was saying, yes, there’s you know, you there’s a guy doing really well with drones podcast, and I thought, okay, that’s interesting. And then how to beat cancer podcast and how to beat this. And I thought, well, this is so niche. It’s amazing how to keep on podcasting on drones. How do you keep on podcasting? Because you do get to a point, even in the more generic shows like my own, where you think to yourself, what we’re going to talk about today, you know, it’s very, very difficult. Is that something as well that people are struggling with, but they’re choosing a subject that really hasn’t got the depth to keep on doing it?
Matt Johnson [6:33]
Well, unfortunately, no, I see most people going the opposite direction and not getting niche down enough. If they start with a smaller niche, My belief is you can always break out and so I think it’s better to go super niche right away, even if you only stay there and super focused on that content for maybe the first year or two. So to me there’s a specific strategy of kind of going super niche building your cult following first and building what I would call like a home base. And then from there, like, once you’ve got your home base belt, it’s like having a castle. Like if you want to go and expand from there and take more territory, you can, but you don’t necessarily have to. If you’re happy living in the castle, and you can talk about the same thing for the next four years, just keep rolling. If you want to talk about new things, you don’t even necessarily have to change your show, you can just start talking about more more different types of content. Or you can just flat out expand the focus, you know, my my original show real estate Uncensored, we’ve toyed with the idea of taking it into a larger niche. And next year, we might do that we might change the name to like to something else that has the uncensored theme to it, but allows us to talk about other subjects. But in the meantime, we can pretty much talk about anything sales and marketing related. We can have any business author we want to on the show because they all want to speak to a real estate audience because they buy books, you know, I’m saying so there’s so much flexibility even if you think you’re locked into a niche, you can start talking about bigger things. And then down the road you can look at what do you actually want to change up the brand of your show, because people will still follow you even as you break into bigger niches. We saw that with Gary Vee, you know Gary Vee with Wine Library TV. He didn’t stay there. He’s not still the Wine Library guy. And anybody can make that, that jump from one really small focused niche into a larger niche.
David Ralph [8:15]
He’s interesting with Gary Vee because Gary Vee has changed cometa lot. I think he is more common sense when he used to be Oh, maybe maybe I wasn’t at the right level. I remember listening to him thinking yeah. Oh, so how so it’s all grind. I know that your work twice as hard to me. I know that you do more in five minutes and are doing two hours it all that kind of stuff. But now he seems to be more systematic with what he actually brings to the world on a level that more people can understand. I think he’s kind of diluted his message but become more powerful for it. Do you see what I’m saying?
Matt Johnson [8:52]
Yeah, I think is I think the reason why Gary Vee got big and when we could do a whole breakdown analysis of his marketing and branding stuff like that, but to me like When I think of Gary Vee, this is the idea that I think he got famous for anyone can hustle their way to success using social media. Like if you boil down everything you actually his first few books like it pretty much everything boils down to that one idea anyone can hustle their way to success using social media. It’s an idea that was the perfect idea for that time. I think what Gary Vee is struggling with is what any coach who’s done it for a long time starts to struggle with, which is that you you know, you have good material, you know, you can get people results. People buy your stuff, they work with you, they sign up for your service, and then some of them still don’t get results. And you’re sitting there wondering what why is this going on? And to me, it’s human nature, but I think people start to deal with that, especially if you’re a speaker and you’re going out and you’re delivering that message and you’ve got thousands and thousands and thousands of people following you like Gary Vee does, but you’re not seeing people implement and get results and it starts to get frustrating if you let it and so I think what we’re seeing with Gary Vee is he’s starting to get a little bit more reflective. He’s starting to look at what he’s saying because he’s trying to make a bigger change. So he’s starting to talk about bigger things than just the hustle. which is I think it’s just a natural evolution. When you start really working with people and trying to get them results as you start to have, you start to get that real world interaction with people and your views on things start to change, you start to realise that sometimes the things that you thought were their biggest challenge aren’t really the challenge. It’s the personal stuff. It’s the it’s people’s lack of confidence in building relationships. It’s it’s people’s lack of confidence and going out and building expertise and then telling other people they’re an expert and giving them a reason to sign up. It’s all that squishy, human human behaviour stuff that actually makes it hard to get people results. And I think Gary Vee is dealing with that. And then Grant Cardone is dealing with that. I think there’s a lot of people once you speak and you coach for five or 10 years, you start to reflect back on why doesn’t everybody get the same results and I think they’re all trying to deal with that.
David Ralph [10:59]
What I do jumped on there was one of the things that you said that people have to go out and tell that they’re an expert. Now with your programme micro famous because, you know, I, I’m doing fairly well for myself, man, you know, I’ve got a podcast that is absolutely rocking and rolling. But I don’t go to conferences. I don’t go to industry events. And I said to somebody the other day, they said, why don’t why don’t you go to conferences and events? I said, I never know when they are. I said, I never know now they just seem to happen secretly. How do people get into this? How did you become famous without sort of, you know, trolling and and ending up at all these rubbish events that you turn up and somebody just launched it and there’s a woman knitting in the corner, and there’s some bloke asleep with some beer balls around these feet? How do you get the good ones?
Matt Johnson [11:47]
Well, I mean, I’m the same way. So I, I pretty much don’t go to events unless I’m there to speak, which sounds terrible, but it’s true. I mean, I’m a natural introvert. I love working from home. My team is scattered all across the world. I think I have one person in California and he moved out to San Diego. So I don’t roll into an office every day. I love my life, the way it’s structured now. And I have no interest given the fact that I love where I live. And I’m like four blocks from the beach. I don’t really have a lot of interest in travelling either. So you throw all that stuff together. And 10 years ago, it would have been a major challenge for someone like me to build a successful agency. The great thing that came along for both of us is podcasting. And to me, podcasting is the best networking right now. It’s way superior to events, when I think about how so so I came out of a digital agency, right. So I left about four and a half, five years ago, when I think about the CEO that I used to work for and how he had to build up his agency that he did exactly what you said. You show up to the events. There’s people knitting off in the corner, they’re falling asleep, they’re look they’re looking at their phones are halfway, not even paying attention to the speaker. They’re planning out where they’re going to grab a beer after the last session. And you think you’re going to go there and make all these interesting, great connections and build relationships with people and it just it really Rarely materialises that way, like the events don’t solve the problem. The relationships can solve the problem, but you go to an event and maybe you have two or three people that you met, I can target virtually anyone I want. And you can too. And you can get them to come on the podcast. And you can have a really good authentic 45 minute conversation with somebody where you really get into deep stuff and you build such a deeper bond with them than you would if you actually shook their hand and look them in the eye. But they just got off stage speaking. Like I can tell you from experience, like when you get done speaking and you’re you come into the crowd or whatever and you’re shaking hands, you are not present. You are You are not mentally there, like you are still recovering from that, that like expending that energy speaking. So the idea that you’re going to come up and meet somebody well known, very influential, and you’re going to shake hands with them in between a session at an event and they’re going to remember you like that’s a long shot. It happens but it’s not consistent. So for me, podcasting is my networking and and it’s why I don’t have to go events. It’s why I get paid to go speak at events, even though I’ve never attended the event. Because podcasting has replaced that for me in my business. And I’m sure it’s done the same for you. And it’s done the same for a lot of my friends and clients. podcasting is now how we meet people and the relationships that we form. When we have that initial conversation ends up leading to a deeper relationship. So if we decide to go to an event number one, it’s optional. Number two, we’re actually really not even there for the sessions were there to meet with very specific people that we already know. And we’re just there to meet them in person and push that relationship deeper. So that’s kind of my approach has been to use podcasting as networking.
David Ralph [14:40]
is interesting because I’ve spoken you know, two and a half thousand people now whatever it is, and, number one, I’d never met another podcast or in real life. I’d never even stumbled across one drunk on the pavement and I never get invited to anything. And people say to me, his cousin, you’re not putting yourself out there. And I go,
Unknown Speaker [15:05]
yeah, I think you
David Ralph [15:06]
have to do you have to. So I’m interested with yourself, but you get invited to speak on stages, but you don’t attend the event. Now, I would have thought that the owner of the event would have said, Well, unless you’re showing your face, we’re not going to put you up there.
Matt Johnson [15:21]
Yeah, it’s not like that, I think if you build up and this is where it helps to go into a specific niche and build relationships with all the key people because if they respect you, and they know you’re going to share good content, they don’t need to kind of get their pound of flesh out of you by making sure that you’re there for the entire event or showing up to every session or, or that you showed up to the last two events before the book you on stage to speak. It’s about the content that you’re going to share and the relationship that you have with the person who runs the event. If you have that they’ll be fine. So I mean, there’s there’s definitely some you know, some sometimes there’s some hidden obligations like hey, can you come speak And oh, by the way, can you come to this cocktail hour thing you know, the night before you speak like, okay, like I get some of those things sometimes. But for the most part, I rarely have anybody go, Hey, we’d like to, we’d like you to speak at this event. But we only book people who have attended or we only book you, if you show up and you buy a ticket and you’re there at the entire event and you speak like that, that just doesn’t happen. And if you build up a name for yourself in a space, it won’t happen. Because there they’ll be happy to have you and you showing up to anything else for them feels like gravy. Like it’s an extra donation of your time, which is exactly the position you want to be in, especially if you’re an introvert. And events are not your thing anyway, like I want to go up and show up and speak. And then I want to get the f out of there and relax and then maybe go meet up later with a few very key strategic people that I feel like earning push my business forward.
Unknown Speaker [16:46]
Unknown Speaker [16:48]
great comedian but he didn’t believe that that was possible for him. And so he made a conservative choice. Instead, he got a safe job as an accountant. And when I was 12 years old, he was let go from that safe Job, and our family had to do whatever we could to survive. I learned many great lessons from my father, not the least of which was that you can fail at what you don’t want. So you might as well take a chance on doing what you love.
David Ralph [17:16]
Now, do you love what you’re doing? Because this is something that I asked all the time. It’s one of the reasons I always play that speech because a lot of people can you kind of go for the love but you’ve got to go for the love. And now I’m a bit more pragmatic and I think I don’t actually mind doing stuff I don’t love if it gives me more time to do what I do love. So I look at it and thinking yeah, I’m lucky I’m I’m enjoying the majority of it. But if it was paying me good money, and it gave me the chance to then sit on a beach and, and have cocktails with Matt Johnson somewhere in San Diego. I’m going to take that.
Matt Johnson [17:51]
Yeah, I think it’s a I think it’s a balance. I do think we spend especially this generation spends a lot of time navel gazing and thinking a lot about what we’re past. about and what we love and what we want to do. And we tend to not think a lot about what other people want from us, and what’s valuable to them. And to me, the sweet spot is finding both. Now what’s interesting, you talk about like joining up the dots, there’s a couple of dots from my past that have enabled and helped me to build the business that I have today that I never would have thought would have come into play in business or led me down this path that I’m in. Like, I love the battleground of ideas. That’s what I love about marketing. It’s what I love about copywriting. It’s what I love about running a marketing agency that came from me growing up as a kid with a pastor for a dad and reading theology books from the 1800s and me and him batting around ideas and him pressing me to like, come to conclusions and then defend my ideas. So I grew up thinking I was going to be in ministry or missionary or something like that, like wildly different, but it’s the same thing. So yes, I love what I do, but not because I went and did the thing. I thought it was going to be when I was five. I found it different way to be super valuable to other people that still allows me to do what I love, but to do it in a way that other people are willing and able to pay me for. And then because I’m able to do that, and then I’ve built the agency in such a way that I was able to delegate a lot of the day to day stuff. Well, now I have time again to go back and do music and things like that, and some ministry things for fun, not because I’m trying to chase a paycheck with it. So another one of those dots was being a musician, right? And I’m not I’m not trying to be a full time musician. I chased that for about five years and realised that my, the marketing skills that I built along the way are a lot better served, doing marketing for other people. For other businesses, the skills are just more valuable there than they were in trying to figure out how to market myself and market the music. So I think for anybody, you know, that’s, that’s in the audience going like I’m trying to find what I love to do. Yeah, like, just like what you said like figure out a little go a little bit more pragmatic for a while. Think about what other people are asking from You, and maybe you can find a way to love that and then do what you really love on the side where you don’t even have to make money doing it.
David Ralph [20:09]
Because when I started Join Up Dots, I think it was an ego based thing. I just bought a quite fancy this I fancy, you know, having my voice out there with people listening. And as it grew and grew and grew, I saw and I’ve referenced this a lot, I lost myself, I totally lost myself. And I became detached from the real me. And what I struggled with Matt was there’s a different persona on the podcast, then there is in real life. I’m somebody that likes to be on my own. I’m very introverted. Somebody said to my daughter the other day, she goes to dance class, and she said, Yeah, your dad, I think your dad lacks competence. And my daughter when no Believe me, my back doesn’t lack competence is just anti social references where I struggled. I struggled with that and Little bit of how do I present myself to the world that I expect me to be podcast host, or I happy with the other side. And when it came together for me, and this is why I’m referencing This story was when I realised that we can be all to everyone we can be different parts, we can be different roles. And so when somebody is micro famous, and they are putting selfies out there, and they’re doing this, and they’re doing that,
Unknown Speaker [21:29]
do they have to,
David Ralph [21:30]
you know, is is that the way because we’re seeing people do that all the time, and they’re putting, you know, many different hats on? Is that the right way? Or should they just choose one identity and go with that? What do you think?
Matt Johnson [21:43]
Well, you know, it’s a it’s a hard question, because it’s really it comes down to what’s most valuable to other people. And sometimes what’s most valuable to other people is to be that rock star. That’s one of the things people love about Gary Vee, and it makes him such an easy example. Because he’s selling the dream to all the rest of us out here and entrepreneur land. He’s selling the dream of being a business Rockstar. The problem is there’s not there’s not that many slots available for profitable business Rockstar and he’s got he’s got one of them tied up. And he’s basically I think maybe unintentionally kind of raised up a whole generation of entrepreneurs for the last five years that think that that’s the way to grow the business is to present yourself as this business Rockstar, and there’s a lot of them. And I’m one of those included where that’s just not my persona. Like that’s not the persona that I inhabit naturally. It’s not necessarily thing that I want to put in the world. I don’t think my daily life is all that interesting. I spent a lot of time in a Starbucks, you know, looking at, you know, typing into a laptop. I spend a lot of time you know, keeping up with my team, making sure that our systems are airtight and making sure that people are developing professionally, making sure that they’ve got a path of growth coaching people. There’s a lot of stuff like that, that just it’s not it’s not business rock stardom, so I don’t spend my time taking selfies and doing 15 Instagram stories and stuff like that a day and I think a lot of us get divided into two groups. Either we’re doing that we’re doing the selfies we’re doing the the Instagram stories, we’re we’re on seven different platforms, we’re doing that and most of the time it’s not working. And then the other camp is that people that don’t do it but feel guilty for not doing it. Like hey, I feel guilty because I’m not active on Instagram. I feel guilty because there’s there’s somebody succeeding on LinkedIn, and I barely paid any attention. Right? So we go we go through this where we’re either in one camp of doing it or when the other camp of not doing it, but feel guilty for not doing it. And I just I looked at some of the clients that I have, and they’re not they’re not an either camp. You know, one of my very first clients when I when I got into podcasting and consulting was a guy that runs a real estate team in Nebraska to city of around a million people were were both from, he runs the number one team in that state basically, and he needs a million dollars a year off of a real estate team that he runs in about four hours a week. So once you hear about something like that, it like breaks your brain. You’re like how like, how is that possible? Like most real estate agents can’t make more than 40 grand a year without working 70 hours a week? How is he netting a million a year and working a morning a week? Well, it’s it’s team building its systems, its marketing, its, you know, entrepreneurial fundamentals and stuff like that it’s approaching the business as a business is a lot of things. But once you know that, that’s possible. It you start realising that there there is a path to get there. And it wasn’t because he was on social media all the time. In fact, he still isn’t. We’ve run a podcast for him that’s grown a multi six figure coaching, consulting business, he’s still not active on social media, more people talk about him on social media than he posts himself. And to me, once you see stuff like that, and you start to realise that there’s this whole underground group of people that are like that, they just have, they have really good marketing. They have good systems, they have good teams. They don’t have to be active on social media all the time. The problem is the Gary V’s and the grant cardones of the world aren’t talking about them because it doesn’t reinforce their point of view. Right? There’s nobody else They’re saying, hey, you don’t have to be active on social media. Right? And so I think there’s a gap there. I’m hoping to feel part of that with micro famous to, I guess bring a message of hope to people like like that that feel like they’re they go back and forth between just trying to be active on social media all the time and then feel feeling guilty that they’re not like there’s there’s a better way and there are other people that are doing it and proving that it works.
David Ralph [25:25]
Well, I will be your poster boy, sir, because I don’t do social media at all. The only thing that I do is when my podcast goes out, it automatically goes on LinkedIn and stuff, but I don’t wait. I don’t go on to Facebook, I don’t do anything. And more often than not, it’s because I can’t really think of anything worthwhile. And that’s the kind of, that’s the key to social media. It’s not supposed to be worthwhile. It’s just supposed to be sort of out there. And also, I’ll be interested in your point on this, Matt. I feel I give enough away of myself on this. Show, you know, I opened my heart I opened my soul walks and all. I don’t want people to know more about me. I don’t want to be posting selfies of myself walking across the field on my day off, you know, I don’t need that.
Matt Johnson [26:16]
No, and I don’t think and i think that like I mentioned these these folks that prove it is possible to build a really successful business without it. I don’t think it’s necessary. It’s, I think there are a lot of people out there listening that are absolutely resonating with you going, I want to do great work for the right type of clients. I know I can get people results. I know, I can teach train and lead people. But that doesn’t mean I want to be on Tech Talk. You know, and I think that’s perfectly normal. Not only is it okay, but I think there is a path to building a successful business attracting the right people in this day and age in this world of influencers that we live in without going down that road without being active and without being glued to your phone all the time. The question is just what what is that and I think I’ve got, you know, and you and I have both stumbled across that strategy, which is podcasting. It’s a combination of being a guest, and it’s a combination of eventually hosting your own show, you know, I think there’s a way to go about it. That’s the most easy direct path. And we can talk about that in a second. But I mean, you and I have both essentially come across what I think is the answer right now podcasting is the answer to becoming micro famous without being glued to your phone. So that’s my approach and and I know a lot of people that it works for them in real life. I also know a lot of people who have big social media followings that look like they’re successful from the outside, but when you talk to them, they’re twisting themselves into pretzels trying to figure out how to monetize their audience. And that’s a really sucky place to be and it’s, it’s not a lot of fun. They’re not having a good time. And I’d rather have I’d rather have a I would rather have a simple, beautiful, profitable business that not everybody knows about, but I’m famously influential to the right people, then to be famous in General be famous to a lot of people and then be twisting myself into pretzels behind the scenes trying to figure out how do I get these people to buy something from me.
David Ralph [28:10]
But that’s the key thing. And I did a podcast and it’s probably going to be going live tomorrow, whatever day this is going out if you lose track of it don’t even podcasting man. But um, it was all about the offer. It’s all about the offer. And I keep on saying to people, you don’t build a business, you create an offer, you go out and you speak to people and you solve their problems. And then you not only got your avatar, but you’ve got what you’re selling to that avatar, you know, I see people, they create the business and then they go, what we’re going to do with it, and in many ways, I did that with Join Up Dots. I launched Join Up Dots thinking, Oh, I just make a squilliam pound by being a podcaster. And I realise Actually, yeah, it’s a bit of a push. And so it took a while for me to find my angle and move it to where I want to be. He’s going incredibly well now, and I’m very, very happy. But it’s it’s a fundamental point, isn’t it? But the offer has to come first. It is down to relationships again.
Matt Johnson [29:10]
Yeah, it really is. And you and I have very similar journeys because I got started in podcasting in 2015. Kind of on a lark. Basically, one of the guys I was working with in my old agency pitched me on the idea of starting a show. And we had a vague idea that he want to do some coaching and I wanted to experiment with creating online products. And we just kind of got out there and started doing it. We started going live on on YouTube. Then when Facebook Live came along, we jumped on that and we rip the audio out of our live broadcast and turn it into a podcast, you know, like super, super, super easy. And what I found out is that we like we were going after the mainstream in our niche, and we attracted them successfully. The problem is the mainstream doesn’t jump all over your latest product necessarily. Eventually they might Yeah, definitely not at first, right. And I think that’s what most people that build successful podcasts and then have trouble money. enticing it find out the hard way is most of the time, the mainstream is happy with what they’ve got. That’s why they’re the mainstream. That’s why that’s that’s, that’s most people, the average person is happy with their phone, the average person is happy with their laptop. They just want it to work. Seth Godin talks about this all the time. So you have to go after the early adopters. And here’s the thing that I wish I could have maybe changed earlier in my in my podcasting career. If I if I had to do it over again, and I was starting, like, for example, I did a real estate podcast. And we went right after the mainstream. We went after the, you know, the younger agents, which there’s many, many times more of those and there are experienced people that are killing it in the business. There’s always more people that are struggling, right. That’s where we went after. That’s where my co host he has a heart for them. Nothing wrong with that. But that’s who we naturally attracted because that’s who we were on the show. So we attracted an audience of people who are struggling. Guess what struggling people don’t have cash to pay. For coaching and drain money. Exactly. Right. So it’s like it’s a two edged sword. So sometimes the people that you think you want to help the most, because you see the need, remember that they don’t necessarily agree with you that they need what you have, because they don’t have the cash to pay for it. And they’re not going to go out on a limb and buy it because they’re too afraid to take action on it anyway. So anyway, going back to like the thing that I would do differently. knowing what I know now, if I was getting into podcasting, from the very beginning, whether it was starting one or two, being a guest on one, whatever it is going back to your offer, I would go and I would use podcasting to connect with the best people in the industry. And what I mean is the the early adopters, the affluent, the people that are the most ultra successful, the ones that are at the top of the industry that other people respect and look up to the ones that are already speaking at the events. If you go straight to them, and you build authentic, real relationships with those people and you You find out what their needs are, and you build something for them. They’re going to be way, way easier to sign up as clients. You don’t have to have everything figured out because they’re willing to roll up their sleeves and get in there and experiment with you. Right. And then when it works, they get to tell other people about it that they did this cool new thing. And they get to brag to all their early adopter ultra successful friends about what they did. And they’re basically introducing you to other people that want to do it. It worked for me It worked for winning with the podcasting agency. It worked from my old CEO. That’s how he got started with his agency. And that’s the one mistake I see a lot of people making is they go after the mainstream and I basically call that trying to run before you can walk, go to the early adopters First, go to them and you think they’re harder to get ahold of. It’s actually not true. I’m sure you’ve noticed this with booking guests on your podcast. It’s way way easier to go straight to the top of an industry and get the most ultra successful people. Because they’re the ones that are the most confident, they have the most free time because they have a team behind them. They’re willing to, you know, come on your podcast, or if you’re in person, they’re willing to say, for example, you could call up one of the most successful people in your industry and say, Hey, I just want to be a fly on the wall for a day, can I come bring you coffee, I’ll bring you lunch, I’ll be your errand boy for the day, just let me hang around your office, every single one of my clients, the most successful people at the top of their industries, they would all say yes to that. If you go to the average person in the industry, they’re going to tell you, they’re too busy, and they’re going to try to hoard all their amazing secrets to themselves. Right? So I think people underestimate how much easier it is to go straight to the top of an industry and go after the most successful people. And those are the early adopters like those are the people that you want to get on your side first. And then after you get all the kinks worked out of your offer, then take the offer to the mainstream and by that time you’ll have all the success and all the testimonials and all the credibility you need. You’ll have all the influencers on your side already. Then the mainstream will sit up and pay attention and go. Okay, this is something I need to look at. And it already works out of the box. Great. Sign me up.
Unknown Speaker [34:07]
Next be back with Matt, after these words, are you ready to make a full time living online? Check out the amazing Join Up Dots business coaching.
Unknown Speaker [34:15]
Hello, my name is Alan. And I’ve just completed the excellent eight week course with David
Unknown Speaker [34:20]
before I started working with David Actually, I had no idea at all, where to start. I had a lot of ideas about
Unknown Speaker [34:28]
what I probably thought was going to be good in business. David was out to help me through that dire to find that passion. Within literally minutes. We had we had a business idea and for the last seven weeks, we’ve been building on it and building on it and the position I’m in now I don’t think I ever got here
Unknown Speaker [34:45]
on my own
Unknown Speaker [34:46]
because of the amount of information that David gives the structure. He’s got the full package here and he explains it in a way that I can understand. His support is phenomenal. I feel like this is the way business This is supposed to work. David
Unknown Speaker [35:01]
helped me understand. Okay, what were the next logical steps that I should do? How, how can I get this up and running? So I would really recommend this as an excellent course helping you. If you have an idea if you have no idea, really teasing that out and at some of the practicalities and steps to take to really launch your business, whether as a full time job was a side hustle. So it was really excellent. I recommend it for anybody thinking about setting up their own business.
Unknown Speaker [35:26]
But both it’s an exaggeration to say David will totally save you, us.
Unknown Speaker [35:30]
Thank you, David, for all your amazing help and support which keeps on going. And we certainly couldn’t be where we are today without you so your author,
David Ralph [35:41]
so if you would love to become my next success story and have your own life changing online business following my step by step system. fine tuned over many years to take away the effort and expense that others struggle with. But come across to Join Up dots.com and book a free call with myself. Let’s get you living the easy life and sits there waiting for you to get it right. He’s Join Up dots.com business coaching. Okay, we’re with Matt Johnson, who has got the micro famous podcast and he’s bringing micro famous to the world. Now. What do you think actually is micro famous is what? in a in a snapshot.
Matt Johnson [36:24]
So to me, it’s becoming a famously influential to the right people. So not to everybody, just the people that you want to serve an impact whoever that is for you. For me, for example, with the agency with the people that I want to work with the business coaches, the consultants, the people that are already running multi six figure businesses, I only need 5000 of them. Right. So when I think about what micro famous means to me and my personal lected, just the agency that I run, I think about just being famously influential arrest one of my friends calls it being Tom Cruise famous to just those 5000 people. If you are, if you’re running like an online business unless it’s like e commerce or something like that, where you’re selling really low priced products, if you’re selling any kind of service, if you have an any kind of offer, that’s let’s say, 500 to $1,000 or more, you really only need those 5000 people. So if you think about it, that’s one of the reasons why I tell people, they don’t need to be everywhere on social media. Because if you only need about 5000 people, then think about your Facebook profile. Like I don’t have a big Facebook page, I have a small growing group that we’re experimenting with. But for the most part, like the only place where I’m really active, if you can even call it that, on social media is on my personal Facebook profile, where I just talk about what’s going on in the business and life and I share whatever music I’m working on, and it’s kind of a mishmash of stuff. But I’ve got 5000 friends and then like 4000 people following or whatever. And if those are the right 5000 people that I’m connected to on Facebook, I don’t need everybody else. I don’t need to be on Tech Talk or Snapchat. I don’t need to be everywhere. We’re on LinkedIn. I don’t need to have 20,000 followers on a Facebook page. It’s just it’s about having the right people. So that’s how I look at what micro famous is. And for anyone listening, if they’re thinking about what it means for them, if you just think of if I had access to the right 5000 people, would I actually need anybody else? And I think for most people, especially for coaches, consultants, speakers, authors, those types of folks that have a like a high ticket offer, the answer is no. You don’t need everybody. You just need the right 5000 people
David Ralph [38:38]
which is one of the problems that people have with podcasting, but it’s all about grow your audience grow your audience and i i got trapped into this where I in the early days, I was spending so much time doing everything other than podcasting, because I thought I had to get like millions of people. And then I’ll Sorry, I can’t be bothered and my business actually became more profit. Because I wasn’t chasing these numbers, but I couldn’t speak to them. There was too many coming to me. And a lot of them, you know, I’m sure that might not be listening to the shows anymore. But I would say we’re just time wasters. They were just tire kickers. And I ground to a halt through the energy of trying to support all these millions of people. Now, is that a problem? Well, I think it is a problem. And I still think it’s a problem that people are trying to teach people how to podcast saying, it’s all about growth. It’s all about growth. It seems to be the second stage, launch your podcast, grow your audience and then monetize.
Matt Johnson [39:41]
Yeah, you’re you’re 100% right. And it is a problem. It’s still a problem. I mean, I have to I have to remind clients of this every day because that that’s one of the questions that that any any podcast host gets the most from anybody who’s else’s is podcasting. How do you grow your audience? And, to me the answer The answer lies in Not trying to grow the audience but in trying to give the right people what they want and what they’re looking for. If you do that they’ll find you. Like, I don’t know if you’ve seen the studies on this, but even even now today, with all the tech with all the social media, the chief way that people find out about podcasts, it’s like 65%, word of mouth. So even today, the like the way that podcasts grow, and the foundation of all growth is word of mouth, which means you got to give people something worth talking about. Now, here’s where the like the the pursuit of the numbers leads people away, like an off into the wrong direction. There’s nothing wrong with wanting your audience to grow. There’s nothing wrong with with trying to build a show that’s successful this listen to the people love like all those things. Those are good things. Those are good questions to ask, How can I build a show that’s successful and profitable? Great question. But when you try to, to create a show that just gets lots of downloads, what you end up doing is it leads you to try to come up With something that has a mainstream appeal, and the problem, like I said earlier is that the mainstream is happy with what they’ve got. Right? The mainstream is happy listening to Joe Rogan. And NPR and at least here in the States, I’m sure there’s different shows in the UK that are that are bigger than those. But like, if you look at the top 10, like in iTunes right now, there’s not a lot of business podcasts in there. You know, you’ve got Jim Rome, Joe Rogan, you’ve got Tim Ferriss, little crackit, sometimes you’ve got NPR stuff, you’ve got fiction stuff. But the bottom line is most of the mainstream in any industry is happy with what they have. So you have to find the people who aren’t happy with what they have. They’re looking for the new thing. If you go after them, and you create a podcast that’s built for them, they’re going to love it and they’re going to tell other people about it. The mainstream might not even find you. So and when we’re in this kind of, like business space, you have to realise that like we all have a business and our business is an idea like my done for you podcasting Service is an idea done for you. podcasting is an idea, right? It’s an idea that’s out there. It’s an idea that people are starting to get to know. In the early days, it was an idea nobody had heard of. So it was very, I you know, it caught the ear. It was very different. It was newest, fresh, it was it was exciting. So the early adopters sit up and pay attention. They go, Ooh, that’s interesting. Like, I want to know more about that. So but as time goes on, that starts to change. And people are looking for those those mainstream numbers. So they try to create an idea that speaks to the mainstream that gets this big audience and gets all these hundreds of thousands of downloads. But that’s not the way that those that the people that have the millions of downloads didn’t get that way. By doing that, they created something new that early adopters set up and paid attention to, and then the early adopters told their friends, so you have to follow follow what people did to become successful, not what they’re doing after they’re already successful, which I know that’s a weird lesson to learn. But it’s totally true with podcasting. I’m sure you see it too. There are things that big podcasters do and I’ll give you an Example, putting episode numbers in their titles are announcing them right up front. I don’t know who decided that that was a best practice. But for some reason people think that that’s an amazing, awesome thing to do. And it brings value to the audience. I don’t really see that it does. I encourage my clients not to do it. And then Apple finally came out and said, Hey, stop doing that. We’re not the only podcast numbers in your in your episode titles. But it’s like monkey see, monkey do. So when you look at the podcasting, you know, landscape, so to speak, or the ecosystem or whatever, don’t just go out there and copy what other successful people are doing when they already have a mainstream audience. Do what they did, in the early days, build something that a really small, passionate group of people will go nuts over, build that thing for them, and then they’re going to tell their friends.
David Ralph [43:49]
I agree. I agree. You know, my audience. It went up a lot because I was doing loads of promotion and stuff. So I speak I was going about 25,000 a day, but it killed me. Yeah, absolutely. I killed me. And now it’s just growing. It’s just growing naturally. And then people say to me, how do you grow your audience? I say do it for six years. And I know it sounds like a flippant thing to say. But there’s truth behind it. There’s truth every day or three times a week, I’m releasing episodes. So that hopefully means I get better at it. I’m always amazed when people say to me, I listened to every episode, I think really, you know, I don’t even listen to every episode and I do it myself. You know, but is its persistence is so true.
Matt Johnson [44:34]
Yeah, it absolutely is. I was doing a video update for some of my clients on their podcast stats. And I just like For comparison, I pulled up the stats from from my real estate podcast from like 2017. When Lipson made the big stats switch over so that’s as far back as I can really get good granular stats for my show. And I was showing them like hey, like, Hey, here’s, you know, in this year, we doubled our, our downloads, right we doubled the average number of downloads. For every episode that we put out, and when you look at that graph over the course of a year, there were no crazy spikes. We had no one episode that went viral. You know, there was some mentions here and there in the trade publications. And we got some nice shout outs from people in the business. And you know, we got to speak in events, and yada, yada. But it looks like a long, gradual upward stock market kind of graph with some spikes here and there, but no, no really huge spikes. And I think people don’t realise that, that that, like, that’s how podcasts grow. You just get in there, you start consistently putting out content for a very specific group of people that will go nuts over it. And then it’s going to grow gradually like that. But then the next time you look up, you realise, oh, wow, we just doubled our downloads over the last six or 10 or 12 months, or Oh, I’ve been doing this for a couple years and now it’s starting to take off and I’m seeing the download numbers grow. Going back to Gary Vee, one of the things people forget about him and he had he tried to remind people of is that he essentially shouted into The Void on Wine Library TV for the first 18 months, I think he said that his Wine Library videos, not a single one got more than 300 downloads or 300 views on YouTube for the first 18 months. And that’s a long time wait way longer than most people hang in there. But that’s the game, right? It’s not just about you being good. There’s a lot of people that have done other podcasts, and then they launched a new one, and it still takes the same 18 months to take off, you know. So it’s not just an issue of being good, although that’s part of it. I mean, you know, this, like, you’ve been doing this for six years, and the government doing it for five, there’s only so much better we can get at podcasting. I mean, maybe we can squeeze out another two or 3% improvement in how we host the show, that’s not going to make the difference. The difference is what we talked about and who we talked to and how we speak to the audience and if we’re giving them what they want, and so it just takes time to dial those things in and even once you have the things dialled in, it takes a while for that natural organic word of mouth to start picking up steam. It’s like starting at the very, very top A mountain with a really small snowball. By the time people start to pay attention, it looks like it’s really something. But they didn’t see it for the 18 months before that, that it took to get the snowball rolling downhill.
David Ralph [47:13]
And, of course, we’ve been referencing podcasting because that’s what we do. But this applies to all businesses, you know, there’s no such thing as overnight success. You know, even even legends like Justin Bieber, wanted around on YouTube for about a year and a half before anybody even saw him. You know, it’s, it’s all takes time, doesn’t it? And that’s the problem, we see the highlights, we see the sexiness, and we go, that’s what we want to do. But of course, you know, it would be brilliant if somebody and I don’t know if somebody’s doing this out there. But if I record everything, from the moment, I first think of doing it, but we don’t do it, you know that that would be great if you could record it, and you could actually put it onto YouTube, so people could see it every step of the way. That would be inspirational, but more often than not, we just do Stuff once we’ve already got traction.
Matt Johnson [48:02]
Yeah, that’s true. I was one of my one of my friends is a business coach told me that most of the time like we get ourselves in trouble most of the time because we are comparing our messy warehouse to somebody else’s spotless reception area. Yeah,
David Ralph [48:22]
yeah, I can see that. I can say that. And that is extremely wise advice to lead us to the last bit of the show. And this is the part that we call the Sermon on the mic when we go leave Matt behind and send him on a journey to have a one on one with his younger self. And if he could speak to the young man, what age would you choose and what advice would you give one is find out because I’m gonna play the music. He’s He’s turn seven on the mic.
Matt Johnson [49:06]
That’s very tempting to sing along. I could say I could I could do some sweet baritone underneath that do up. Okay. So I would go back to 25 year old Matt, who was getting into real estate. And I did I think what most people do, and I jumped in and just started, just just started going, taking the courses and stuff like that and got into the business. Little did I know, one of my very first clients in podcasting was also getting into business at that same time, and he took a wildly different approach. So if I can go back in time to my 25 year old self and slap him across the face, here’s what I would tell him. If you’re thinking about getting into something, go and find the most successful people you can find. Get around them, however, you have to do it and pick their brain. because number one, it’s going to be immensely valuable to really see if you want to get into that. So for example, if you think you want to go run an online business In ecommerce, go, don’t just go listen to the podcast, don’t just go by somebody course, like go make contact with somebody who’s doing it successfully. And ask if you can ask a few questions, email them, if they’re in your local area asked to take them out to lunch, if they’re going to be in an event, ask if you can grab a beer with them after the event, whatever the case is. But I would have told myself that before I got into something, find out who’s the most successful at it and go pick their brain and find out if it’s actually something you want to do because so many of us including me, with real estate, get into something and we spend all this time we spend six months or a year 18 months doing the courses taking the trainings doing this doing that getting into it, only to find that we don’t like it. It’s not a good fit for our personality. And and real real estate was that thing for me now talking about joining up dots it all worked out because that experience in real estate combined with my marketing experience from being a musician, led me to my old agency and my old agency was the springboard. For me starting my own agency, so it all worked out. But the the client that I mentioned that was getting into the business at the same time I did. I don’t know who gave him that advice. But he went and acted on it. He essentially called up 30 of the top real estate agents in our same city where we both live at the time. And he offered to take him out to lunch and just said, Hey, I’m new. I’m want to thinking about getting into the business. I’m kind of scoping out real estate as a possibility. But I want to know everything I can before I get into it, can I take you out to lunch? And just ask you about your story and your experience in the business and what’s working and what’s not. Virtually all of them said yes. And he was able to go and get, you know, 2530 lunches with really ultra successful people in the business and it told him everything he needed to know. And then he was able to get into the business attack, it hit the ground running because he already knew what it took to be successful. So if I could go back in time, I would I would start off by slapping my 25 year old self who was an idiot in business and that’s what happened to him.
David Ralph [51:54]
Great advice. And I think we would all do pretty much the same where we kind of become islands. Don’t want We don’t reach out because we don’t coming to believe in ourselves enough.
Matt Johnson [52:03]
Yeah, that’s exactly what it is. And I, you know, like, it’s easy advice for me to give now that I get to hang around ultra successful people because of podcasting. But I’m telling you, it took me, it took me at least six months to learn it by hanging around them that that ultra successful people love to share what they’re doing that made them successful. And they especially want to share it with people who will take it and run with it and implement. So if you if you go to someone, you say, Hey, give me give me one or two small tactical things that I can do. And let me prove to you that I’ll take your advice. They’ll give you a couple of things. And then if you do them and you actually come back and say that I did them, they’ll be blown away and they’ll give you even more time and more advice. I mean, look at Napoleon Hill, as an example of that. That’s how he ended up writing all of his books was that’s that’s exactly what he did. He went and interviewed people. And so like the next thing I would tell my younger self is once you have some expertise in something go get featured on pi And start building relationships with podcast hosts. Because those are the influencers right now in this little in the entrepreneur land that we live in the podcast hosts with the audience are the ones that have influence. They’re the ones that can refer you clients. They’re the ones that can introduce you to speaking events and event organisers and other influencers. That’s one of the things that’s worked for me is just using podcasting as networking. And if I lost my business and had to start over from scratch with nothing, that’s the first thing I would do. I would go get featured on podcast, I would start my own show at some point. And I would try to meet everybody I could in that space, and just start building relationships with as many influential people as I could, because once you do that, good things happen.
David Ralph [53:41]
powerful stuff, powerful stuff that everyone out there. So Matt, what is the number one best way that our audience can connect with you
Matt Johnson [53:50]
go to how to get featured calm, because I did a training there on how to create your story hook that actually gets podcast host to say yes to you. So if you want to get featured on podcast, if you’re selling something If you have an offer, David, you talked about that. So if you have an offer and the good The question is, how do you get that message out to the world? Right now? I don’t, I can’t think of a better faster way to do that than to go right to the podcast where your ideal clients are already listening and get featured as a guest. So if you want to do that, if you’re interested in doing that, but you’re not sure how to get started, or even what to say, when you reach out to the podcast host, that masterclass will answer all those questions, and it will show you exactly how to put your background and your experience into a compelling, interesting story. So that when you reach out the podcast host reads that email and goes, yes, I need to have you on my show. Here’s how to get that setup. So that’s all it how to get featured calm.
David Ralph [54:39]
Great, and we will have all the links in the show notes to make it as easy as possible. Matt, thank you so much for spending time with us today. joining up those dots. And please come back again when you’ve got more dots to join up because I do believe that by joining up the dots and connecting our past it’s the best way to build our futures Matt, thank you so much.
Unknown Speaker [54:57]
David Ralph [55:02]
Mr. Matt Johnson making people micro famous now I could I could geek out on that. And because you know, he loves podcasting, and I love podcasting, and when you you love something as much as we do, you want it to be good. You want the qualities to stay good, you want people to really get an experience. And it is my belief that you know, so many people out there launching inferior podcasts and just kind of stuff that’s a little bit rubbish. But of course, it doesn’t have to be that way. Oh, here we go. If you want to jump over to Join Up Dots, I’m doing not only some pre podcast, I’m courses for you. And I’m also doing a two day podcast course that you can jump on and we will show you everything not just about launching a podcast but actually how to make a money making machine because it’s quite easy if you do it the right way. So that’s over at Join Up dots.com that’s my podcast coaching and until next time, I will see You again look up yourselves
doesn’t want you to become a faded version of the brilliant self you are wants to become. So he’s put together an amazing guide for you called the eight pieces of advice that every successful entrepreneur practices, including the two that changed his life. Head over to Join Up dots.com to download this amazing guy for free and we’ll see you tomorrow on Join Up Dots.