Michael F Schein Joins Us On The Join Up Dots Podcast
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Introducing Michael F Schein
Michael F Schein is our guest today on the Steve Jobs inspired Join Up Dots business podcast.
The last time he was on the show we talked about his book “The Hype Handbook: 12 Indispensable Success Secrets From the World’s Greatest Propagandists”
During the conversation he told us “Your success depends on getting people to think of you first.
But with so much competition in the marketplace, it has become increasingly difficult to attract anyone’s attention.
In a perfect world, ideas would rise and fall on their own merits.
But it’s not a perfect world.
If you want your message to reach a big audience, you need a presence and a platform that shines.
It’s hard to do, but some people (and companies) always seem to be able to make it happen.
They’re the ones who are always in demand as speakers, sources for articles, and interview subjects.
They’re the ones who can always find new business opportunities without effort.
How The Dots Joined Up For Michael
Now he is taking it a bit further with his “Secret Society” (Hype Strategy #2) experiment from that book that has had some very interesting results.
As he says “I reached out to a highly successful subset of my email list and invited them to become part of a special “Black Book Club.”
It’s a small invite-only circle that meets periodically and also gets regular “elite info and scoops”. Most importantly, being a member comes with all the ritual and secrecy that you don’t see much anymore and which makes these groups so intriguing.
I’m not charging anything for it. For now, at least, I feel that would defeat the purpose. It’s kind of like Freemasonry updated for the 21st century.
I have actually been surprised by how excited these very busy and very successful people have been to take part.
So what is it that has sparked interest in individuals how perhaps have many of these type of offerings coming there way each week?
And out of all the points he made in the Hype Handbook, what made him choose this one to dig deeper?
Well let’s find out as we bring onto the show to start joining up dots the second time with Mr. Michael F Schein.
During the show we discussed such wieghty subjects with Michael F Schein such as:
Michael talks about his “falling into business” route to success and how he formed his ideas into a structure that made sense to him.
We discuss how the new Rockstar’s of the days have changed to the leam start-up legends that so inspire such as Musk, Jobs and Zuckerbeg.
Why scale is so important for many businesses, but may well not be the perfect solution for many entrepreneurs.
How we can all be Batman in our lives, we just need to go out and become our own superhero.
How To Connect With Michael F Schein
Or if you prefer just pop over to our podcast archive for thousands of amazing episodes to choose from.
Full Transcription Of Michael F Schein Interview
Life shouldn’t be hard life should be a fun filled adventure every day. So now start joining up dots tap into your talents, your skills, your God given gifts and tell your boss, you don’t deserve me. I’m out of here. It’s time for you to smash that alarm clock. And start getting the dream business and wife You will of course, are dreaming of. Let’s join your host David route from the back of his garden in the UK, or wherever he might be today with another JAM PACKED episode of the number one hit podcast, Join Up Dots.
David Ralph [0:40]
Jaeger morning here. Good morning to you and welcome to Join Up Dots. Thank you so much for being with us. Listening to today’s conversation. And today’s guest has been on the show before. The last time he was on the show. We talked about his book The Hyper handbook 12 indispensable success secrets from the world’s greatest propagandist. And during the compensation, he told us your success depends on getting people to think of you first. But with so much competition in the marketplace, it’s become increasingly difficult to attract anyone’s attention. In a perfect world ideas would rise and fall on their own merits. But it’s not a perfect world. If you want to message if you want your message. To reach a big audience, you need a presence and a platform that shines and it’s hard to do. But some people and companies always seem to be able to make it happen. Now, he’s taking it a bit further with the secret society hype strategy number two experiment from that book. But as had some very interesting results, he now says I reached out to a highly successful subset of my email list and invited them to become part of the special black book club. It’s a small invite only circle that meets periodically, and also gets regular elite info and scoops. Most importantly, being a member comes with all the ritual and secrecy, but you don’t see much anymore. And which makes these groups so intriguing. I’m not charging anything for it. For now at least I feel that would defeat the purpose. It’s kind of like Freemasonry updated for the 21st century. So what is it that has sparked interest in individuals who perhaps have had many of these types of offerings coming their way each week? And out of all the points he made in the hype handbook? What made him choose this one? To dig deeper? Well, let’s find out as we bring onto the show to start joining up dots with the one and only Mr. Michael F Schein. Good morning to you, Michael, how are you?
Michael F Schein [2:36]
Hey there, David, it’s great to be here. I’m doing well,
David Ralph [2:39]
you aren’t doing well, because you’re back on Join Up Dots. Second time. That doesn’t happen. This. This is like a secret society, but only a few people have have done. Now I remember the conversation greatly because it was one of those books that you produced. But I actually enjoyed. And I say that with open transparency. But there was a time that I would read every single person’s book that came on the show. And now recently, I’m getting bored with them. I’m getting bored with them. But I’ve actually gone back and I have gone through yours a couple of times because it is one of those ones that you can just pick it up. And it’s gossipy, isn’t it it’s gossipy with intent. Now, what is it about that book that appealed to so many people out there?
Michael F Schein [3:26]
Gosh, I feel like despite the fact that the book is called the hype handbook, I feel a little bit bashful guessing. I think maybe there’s a few things. I think first of all, I was a writer before I was a business person. In fact, I never wanted to be a business person, I kind of fell into it. So it was really important to me to write a good book, you know, a book where I cared about how I phrased things I cared about the storytelling I cared about something that someone could pick up, even if perhaps they weren’t trying to learn about business. So hopefully that came through. I also think the subject matter is inherently juicy, right? I mean, there’s a lot of these business books that, you know, as you said, they’re, they have some information, but they’re there. They’re pretty brass tacks, you know, leadership strategies for the 21st century project management for Dummies, whatever it is this, I’m looking at all of these very colourful figures, these propaganda artists and cult leaders and rock managers and hip hop moguls and teaching you how to use what they do in an ethical way. And I think that it’s just inherently fun stuff
David Ralph [4:40]
is you like a good story and it’s pop culture. There’s rock stars, and there’s it’s dirty and grimy at times and I loved it. I really did. Now, I’m intrigued with what you were saying about you fell in to business. Now. A lot of people certainly connect with us here on Join Up Dots. And they’re desperate to get into business. But they’re, they can’t think of the idea. Oh, I just can’t think of what I can actually do. Now you fell into it. So was it something that you look back on now and you think that actually, the best ideas come to you, you don’t go to them?
Michael F Schein [5:19]
Well, ideas have never been my problem. I mean, if I’m good at anything in this world, it’s ideas. I have 10 ideas a day. I mean, there are other parts of business, that I that I’ve had to really struggle to learn, and I’ve gotten either good at it, or I’ve surrounded myself with people like operations. You know, I don’t have any inherent talent at that. But I’ve worked with people who do, but but I don’t lack for ideas. The way that my ideas took shape, though, as a young person was in more artistic sort of areas. I mean, I wanted to be a novelist for a long time, I wrote a lot of fiction, I played a lot of music. I mean, I played in a band that, you know, we never quite made it. But we had a following. To me business was that kind of boring spreadsheet stuff that my dad talked about with his boring spreadsheet friends that I had no idea what they were talking about. It was in, you know, his insurance, it was taxes, it was whatever. And so no, I mean, I the idea, it seemed very boring to me. I mean, so So yeah, I wanted to write I wanted to do that sort of thing. And essentially what happened was, but I think I wanted to be self employed. I mean, that seemed interesting to me. But um, yeah, it’s funny. I often joke to people that I think part of it’s generational when I was a kid, if you were a creative person, you started a band. Right. And and I think I think business was something that some people liked, but I don’t think it was a romanticised thing. I think it was something that people did to make money, right. But I think now I meet a lot of young people, people in their 20s. And they’re all starting startups. And I think that their heroes are not rock stars. No one listens to rock music unless it’s old rock music. Right. I think they’re heroes are. Steve Jobs and you know, these kinds of people. So I think I don’t think it was romanticised. I don’t think creative people tended to think about business back then what I remember,
David Ralph [7:18]
well, I think you’re right. And I think why these people that you mentioned, like the Steve Jobs are so inspiring, is I was talking to my son the other day about Batman. And he was saying, everybody thinks I could be Batman, because all you need is a lot of money. He hasn’t been bitten by anything. He hasn’t right radio, he’s just got a load of money and a load of gadgets. So we could all be Batman. And I think when you look at people like the Mick Jagger’s and the Bon Jovi’s and stuff, there’s that there’s a kind of stardust, which most of us haven’t got. But we can learn a process, we can overcome obstacles, we can look at providing value to people. And that’s what these entrepreneurs do at their base level. They look for opportunities where they can provide value, but they think is needed before anybody else. And so I think that they’re dead, like the modern day Batman, we can all become them.
Michael F Schein [8:17]
I think that’s a part of it. And I would offer that maybe another part of it is that when I was a young person, and I’m 45 So I was the last generation where this was probably the case. Music led the culture right? So and even before me more than that, if the Beatles brush their hair a certain new way, the entire world brush their hair, boy, right? Whereas now music is something you listen to in the background, there was a time where novelists were on the cover of Time Magazine, that’s very rare now, if there even is a Time magazine that anyone reads, whereas, you know, for young people, technology leads the culture right? I mean, you know, the the newest app, the newest game, the newest social media platform that people who invent these things are there Mick Jagger, right. So on one hand, it’s adding value and, and anyone can do it, but that’s what I liked about punk music. I thought anyone could do that. And I think that’s part of it. But I think the other part is, they’re the people who do this stuff. Everyone wants to just like I listened to music that changed the culture. So I wanted to create a cool band. People play Roblox that changes their culture. So they want to create a new video game or a new app right.
David Ralph [9:30]
Now, let’s talk about this Fenn, because what you’re talking about the secret society falls into something that at its essence, is kind of deep rooted. It’s almost mediaeval. You know, I remember being a kid and always creating clubs and societies and meeting in our garden shed, and you had to have a badge and a Secret Knock and stuff. And it was exciting, and I can see how As an adult, that secret society is still exciting. So I want to ask the question is, why is it? Why is it as a 52 year old men, but I am, when you talk about a secret society, I go, Oh, I can’t see a bit of that.
Michael F Schein [10:18]
So, so I think I think it’s really interesting that this dynamic doesn’t end at childhood at all. It’s just that when we become adults, we get, we say, we want to be creative, but we get very brass tacks in our thinking, right? So we might join a mastermind group are a networking group. And we can pay lip service all day to how it’s, we’re giving back and we’re this and that, but really, we’re doing it for our careers, you know, if we had our way we go watch the football game, or we would go hang out with our friends instead of going to the sheetmetal. You know, networking mastermind, right? Whereas if they build a new Mormon temple, there’s a period of time you know, only Mormons can go to it, there’s a period of time before they consecrate it, where anyone can go in and people drive from 10 states around to see this Mormon temple, right. And nothing physically changes, once they seal it off. It’s just that human nature is human nature, when something becomes exclusive and secretive and is surrounded by ritual. We’re inevitably attracted to it. So you know, in the book I wrote in the hype handbook, I talked about secret societies, as I started to use the term loosely and tongue in cheek, I mean, really, what I was talking about was a sort of very high level networking. But when I, you know, kind of came off of that and thought about some new ideas, I thought to myself, well, what if I looked at real secret societies, everyone I know is fascinated by them. That’s if the entire career of Dan Brown is based on these things. So I did some research. And it turns out that the secret society of all secret societies, right is the Freemasons, a lot of the other ones are based on Freemasonry. And there’s, like you said, There’s secret handshakes, there’s ritual, they wear certain aprons, they say, certain rituals, certain chants, but it turns out people have leaked the secret before and the secret is something like Be good to your fellow man. The secret is nothing. It’s nonsense, right? The secrecy is the entire point. People are so attracted to this thing because of the ritual because of the pageantry, because of the secrecy, the secrecy is the secret itself is almost useless. And as a result, people network at a very high level, so many deals have gotten done, the Freemason will do anything for another Freemason. So I thought to myself, What if I scrapped all this boring networking, you know, mastermind group stuff and created a modern equivalent of a secret society, you know, so I called it the ludic circle, put a little Latin in there, and went from there and did a little experiment, it turned out to go quite well, which we can talk about the details as much as you’d like.
David Ralph [13:06]
So what structure did you give this invite? Because you cannot just send an invite out without planning something behind the scenes, what what did you actually give it? So
Michael F Schein [13:16]
there’s two ways to answer this question. Right? I think the first thing to keep in mind is that every single thing that we do the most, you know, Richard, the things we respect more than anything in the world to the most frivolous things were made up, made up from someone’s imagination, from the parliament, to the Congress, to the Catholic Church, to the circus, right, it’s all made up. So, you know, we sometimes think that these organisations kind of like, and again, I don’t want to say the Catholic religion is made up that may not be true, but the church right, all the ritual on all of this, I think it’s important to keep that in mind. Because sometimes we think these things work like risen from, you know, mountain and just kind of came to life four o’clock, but at some point, someone put their heads together and said, How are we going to do this thing? So with that being said, Everything I do is an experiment. You know, I definitely base the way that I promote my business and my clients business on these mass psychology principles that I call hype, but the actual specific ones can fail miserably and often do and you just want to do them as quickly and as small on a small level as possible. So I that’s how I started, you know, I noticed that I had this email list. And it was a lot it’s a large email list and most of the people are just people just like, like anybody but I noticed that a few of the names because it’s a large list and a lot of it’s based on, you know, a book that got a bit of attention is were names I recognised. So just on a lark, I created a really sort of, you know, fun, invite, right? It wasn’t just Hey Come to us, I put a lot of pageantry in ritualistic language and use the Latin and all of this, not knowing if anyone would respond. And people did. So you know, the first thing, and again, I’m really trying to take this seriously. So I don’t want to give the detail because it is a secret society. And that’s part of the fun, that’s part of what makes people say, I want to be part of this thing. But you know, we had certain things that you had to repeat certain ways that you had to talk certain things like that. And the first one was done digitally, because it had to be, but people really had a lot of fun with it, and took it semi seriously. Right. So then we did the next event, and the next man, we did a dinner. And so um, yeah, we just gave it that sort of pageantry and ritual that a lot of these groups have. And other than that, it’s just a bunch of interesting handpick people in the same room together, which is really what the things aren’t now,
David Ralph [15:56]
did it work though, Michael, because it’s you. And it’s people are interested in your work. If somebody’s listening out there today, they’ve got a bit of an email list, and they send an invite out, that might come across as hang on what this is a bit strange to that somebody’s doing this? Did it work? Because it was you
Michael F Schein [16:17]
know, maybe, you know, I think I think, on one hand, thank you for that. I think fortunately, I’ve had some success in my career at the same time. I’m not Elvis, I’m not Jesus. Um, Mike, you know, I’m not David Bowie, right? I mean, so, you know, I think people do respect my work. And that was part of it. That being said, I’ve done networking events, I’ve done dinners, I’ve done things like that, and people have fun with them. But this sparked sort of a different type of energy, right? That being said, as I always tell, to tell my clients, and anyone who asks, the minute that somebody goes public with a marketing or promotional technique, if you try to replicate exactly what they did, you will almost certainly fail. I see this mistake all the time, someone goes out, and they do a really cool tick tock channel. And so with a funnel behind it, right, and a countdown clock. So everyone in the world is out there doing the same kind of tick tock channel with the same kind of countdown clock, and they wonder why they’re not having the same result. And that’s because they’re copying the tactics, what you want to try to do is look at what people responded to psychologically, sociologically, like what is it in the human psyche? Or in sort of our social nature? That got us to reply? And can you? Can you replicate that in your own way? Or can you draw a lesson from it and apply it to your own vibe? So if you’re not Mike shine? Maybe you’re something else? Maybe maybe people respect you for a different reason? Maybe you partner with somebody, maybe you make it sports oriented? Right? You know, it’s an elite fantasy football club. I mean, I don’t know. Right, but But what I do know is that exclusivity and secrecy and ritual are very attractive, the way that that actually plays out is going to look different every time.
David Ralph [18:16]
Why is attractive? This is the bit that’s intriguing me because I can feel it, it is, I can feel that I would be drawn to it myself. But I also feel a kind of urge to run away from a lot of these people, you know, when it becomes too cultish and non secret society medicine, there’s that closeness, right goes to fear somehow.
Michael F Schein [18:41]
I mean, I think the fact that I’ve been doing it in a tongue in cheek way is attractive to my kind of people. I mean, I think that if I came up to people, in my group, that type of people I appeal to in complete seriousness with with no wink and nod attached to this. It wouldn’t really work. But you know, it’s funny, a lot of times people say that they’re not attracted to these these sorts of things. It’s it’s a function of, they are attracted to it just in a different form, right. So like Pearl Jam has a thing called the 10 Club. And all of these middle aged men who are Pearl Jam’s main audience now, which was very smart of Pearl Jam. They were 15 year old boys when Pearl Jam first got popular and a lot of them joined this 10 club in the very early days. And so if you’re part of the 10 club, you get see you get first dibs on special concert tickets. Once in a while they let members of the 10 Club backstage, they do certain record pressings just for the 10 club. So yeah, it’s not a secret society, like the Freemasons, but it’s a secret society, right? I mean, it’s exclusive. You get to beat that 10 club and as a result, Pearl Jam to this audience that’s like second to the Grateful Dead. In terms of dedication. Why does it work? I’m not sure. I mean, it might have something that Do a scarcity, right? It might have something to do with the idea that most resources throughout history have been very scarce. And if something is only allowed to be accessed by a certain group of people, that becomes very attractive. But just like Robert Cialdini says the scarcity thing is hardwired into us. So maybe the secrecy thing is connected to that. I’m not sure. But I think we all know it works. We’ve seen it a million times in our own life. It’s the way that you know, everyone wants to get into Studio 54. Whether or not the disco music is any better in there than in a regular disco.
David Ralph [20:40]
Yeah. It makes me think about business as a whole. Because so many people are looking for scale scale scale, whether people should be looking for scarcity, secrecy, but charge premium for it, whether that so they have less clients, less customers, but they have more free time and more, more income coming their way. What do you think?
Michael F Schein [21:06]
I think it depends, right? I mean, I think you’re onto something. So I remember when, when I had a wedding long ago, I went to the restaurant at this, this, the place where we’re going to get married in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, and they had these flog raw ravioli at the restaurant. And it was a gourmet restaurant. And it was the greatest thing I had ever had. And so they were going to be catering a restaurant. And I said to them, I’d love to have this at the event. And so they made it happen. And the chef came up afterwards and said to me, you know, that was so hard to get done. Or he said, I hope you liked it. We did it just for you. And I said, yeah, it was great. And he said, Yeah, it was so hard to do. And when I felt bad, because what I didn’t want to tell them it was It wasn’t anywhere as good as when they just made it for one person. Because they try it. They did it at scale. You know, they had to do it for 100 people. And so yeah, I mean, there was a time and place for scale. I mean, McDonald’s is a great example of scale. I also think if you want to not be ruled by your business until the day you die scale is very important. But but you lose something, right? I mean, there are certain craftsmen a chocolate tear, they’re not going to make fine, the finest chocolate at scale, or giros, sushi shop in Tokyo who makes every piece of sushi by hand. So you know, there’s a time for craft, there’s a time for scale. And sometimes there’s a way to split the difference.
David Ralph [22:32]
Now, how do you bring these elements into your own business? Michael, how do you? Because it’s, it’s the playful side of you. But obviously there is results that you gain? Sometimes it goes your way, sometimes it doesn’t. But how do you then bring it into your own business and potentially scale it?
Michael F Schein [22:51]
I think this is sort of the thing I wrestle with and walk the fine line between every day of my professional life. Because on one hand, you know, we talked about ideas, I, at a certain point figured out that thing that I’m best in the world. And I mean, I’m bad at so many things. And I’m not saying that to be falsely modest, I will get lost sometime this week, you know, like walking around, right? But I’m really, really very exceptionally good at connecting the dots, to your point joining the dots, and coming up with really innovative ideas, right? So there was a time in my business. Where scale was more important to us. I mean, we had an agency. So I had a lot of account managers, clients would come in, and we would execute all the marketing for them. So if they needed social media run, we would run the social media. Now that was fine. It wasn’t total scale, but it was scaling that I had employees and I had systems I still have employees, but had a whole staff and all that. The problem was they didn’t get me, you know, they got my systems, but they didn’t get me. What I do now, that’s a little bit different is since we have this pipe thing that’s gotten some attention, you become part of a programme where we work hype strategy by hype strategy. So we’ll say okay, we’re going to work on secret society this month. And we’ll do a series of games and exercises to come up with really strong gambits experiments that are essentially hyper marketing experiments. We customise the tools for you to use them I am on the line to help you with the idea generation, right? But then you as a client have to go out and put one foot in front of the other to execute the experiment. What that does is it helps bake the hype process into your corporate DNA. But what it also does is it allows you because I’m there once a week, it allows you to get that special thing, you know, that is my brain right? But at the same time I can only you’d be on so many calls. So I have to, you know, we charge a premium for that we charge more money. Now eventually what I’d like to do is find people, since everything else around me, in some ways is more at scale, everything is systematised, you know, the games are the same every time the curriculum is the same every time. I’d like to find people who have that special ability to Join Up Dots to be creative. And those people don’t have to be marketers, because everything else is systematised. They might be improv comics, right? I can teach them the marketing system, that’s where the scale comes in. But the way I’m gonna finally be able to replace myself is to find that ultra creative person and have a system that’s so strong, that all they need to do is be creative. And the rest of it can be taught and replicated.
David Ralph [25:47]
is one of those issues with business, isn’t it that the, I always reference that that classic old Michael Keaton film multiplicity, do you remember that film? Yeah, it’s a great movie. And for people that haven’t seen it, and Michael Keaton actor, he plays this, this builder, and he’s so busy all the time that he doesn’t get to go to his kids school plays and stuff. And he finds a way of cloning himself. And then the clone gets really busy, so decides to clone itself and it’s like a photocopier. In the old days, you would get worse and worse quality pictures, and be the clones get worse and worse and worse. And I see that a lot. You know, if you go to a Gordon Ramsay restaurant, you wouldn’t expect to see Gordon there. But it’s the quality of Gordon’s work. It’s it’s that quality, which sometimes can be lost, isn’t it when the owner steps away? So how do you maintain that your brain is in the jar for everybody else? When you’re not there? How will you bring that quality control in?
Michael F Schein [26:50]
I think we’re sort of at the middle stage of that right now. And I’ll tell you what I mean by that. So the first stage of my business was almost what many people think of as where they’re trying to get to, you know, it was an agency. So yeah, we have systems and processes. But ultimately, we what it turned into was, you know, we had smart people working for us. And when our clients said, jump, we said, how high right? So it was, hey, we have an idea for a social media campaign. Now we’re going to execute it for you. And we’re going to run around like chickens without a head doing it. So when they said jump, we would say how high and we made that happen. But the problem was, there was no way to systematise that right? If you’re responsible for just executing a marketing campaign, and doing whatever it takes to get the result, and you’re responsible for doing all the work. It’s tough to scale that type of business, right, you just have to keep you know, every time I would bring on two new clients, I would, you know, have two or three new clients, I would have to bring on a new employee. The other problem with that, again, even though we ran some really great campaigns that I’m very proud of, is that when you tell somebody, Hey, we’re going to handle everything for you, we’re going to handle your marketing. There’s human nature that kicks in where people say to themselves, Oh, I’m basically outsourcing this, I’m advocating this. And the problem with that is that if you abdicate your marketing, in the modern age, there’s a disconnect. So if you know we create a really contrarian, hip point of view for your brand for your company, and you show up to an interview as the CEO, and you act like your stuffy old corporate self, because you’ve been disconnected from the process. That doesn’t work very well. Right. So stage two, which we’re I think at the tail end of now is we built scale, and systematisation around everything, but me, the brain, as you call it, the brain in a jar. And what I mean by that is, instead of, hey, we’re going to market you, we’re good marketers, what we do now is, you know, it’s a month over month process week one of a month is a module, we build an experiment, using systematised exercises that we use that are based on mass psychology principles that we call height, it’s done with the same games, the same exercises every time. We walk you through processes designed to break down the walls in your brain, but I’m there now this is the part that isn’t scaled, I’m there to help connect the dots to get that amazing, hopefully, and often idea that we can then go out to the world when week two, we
turn that broad idea into a systematic experiment, we have a system that you know, we break it down, we atomized it step by step so that it can be executed out in the world. And then what also happens is somebody in your organisation has to actually put one foot in front of the other are using our tools using our processes to do the experiment, what happens there is you own it. So you become part of it, it becomes part of your DNA. And you really own it and take it to a whole other place. You know, weeks three and four, we iterate, we score it, we turn it into something that can be replicated, and we document it. So what happens is, everything is in a way more scaled than it ever has been. Because the tools are the same, the scoring is the same, the documentation is the same. The only thing that isn’t the same is there’s this guy named Mike shine, who happens to be really good at coming up with the ideas. And if he takes a vacation, or if he’s not on the call, it doesn’t get done. So what would phase three be because one, one way to do it, and a lot of people make a lot of money this way is just to keep charging more and more and more money, right. So like, you know, I happen to know Dorie Clark, she’s on every one of her coaching calls, and she does really well, she just charges so much money for one of those coaching calls that it makes sense for her to be on the call. So that’s one way of doing it. The other way, which in some ways is more appealing to me, is finding people who aren’t necessarily creative in your field, but who are just generally creative. So let’s say I find a struggling improv comedian who all day long, his whole work is connecting the dots and coming up with ideas. Because all of my systems around the marketing part of it are scaled and are systematised I can teach him that part or her that part. What I can’t teach him or her is the creativity. So now, I’m taking someone with the same artsy fartsy skill set as me and teaching them all of the other stuff that that we’ve spent so much time systematising. And that’s where we go next. Right now we’re in the phase where I’m your guy, right, but but I’m pretty excited about that next phase,
David Ralph [32:00]
but you still haven’t walked away from the key element to your business. And that’s like the psychological triggers. But people can’t help but react to that, that seems to be the stake in the ground. But everything we’re talking about spins around,
Michael F Schein [32:18]
I think, what we’re talking about the difference in stage two, and stage three is in stage two, you’ve got Mike shine, using those psychological triggers to come up with great ideas. In stage three, Mike shine has taught those triggers to someone else, and is out there doing additional research, doing additional r&d, writing the next book, right so that the ideas, the holistic concepts get better and better rather than the concepts for one or another client. But again, how many how many businesses, especially service businesses, do you know that are aiming to get there? That’s a hard thing to do? You know, that’s why we go to work every day. It’s a tough nut to crack,
David Ralph [32:59]
and how do you join up the dots with your ideas? So you don’t become a caricature of yourself? You know, we see it time and time again. But somebody will do the five minute startup and then they do the five minute body. Yeah, classic example was Tim Ferriss, the four hour work week, and it was the four hour work week, and then the Four Hour Body of in the four second base and the four second, and after the first two, you kind of don’t really care. I don’t really care.
Michael F Schein [33:29]
So the earnest in me says, I don’t really care, right. And the artist in me wants to be David Bowie, right. I mean, who reinvents himself all the time. You could have gone with David Ralph, that would have worked. I’ve got this cough, it got contorted. Yeah, no, no, really. I mean, David Bowie is famous for reinventing himself a million times he would create a genre and then he would get bored of it and move on and create a new genre. And it was amazing, but very few people can do that. Those are geniuses and I hope I hope to see myself in that category. But on the other hand, you might be bored of Tim Ferriss. But on the other hand, the man’s a multi multi multimillionaire, I mean, every four hour thing he does is bigger than the next. I mean, he did the for I mean, it’s like he found this thing that works. He found a brand he found a package. And he’s killing it. So who are we to say that that’s not the way to do things?
David Ralph [34:23]
No, but it’s it’s works when it works. But there’s, there’s Tim Ferriss and there’s Jim Ferris some guy is trying to do. He’s brilliant, isn’t he? And he and his wife, Lynn Farris, she’s good as well. But there’s people that they just kind of do this sort of diluted version, and it ties into what you were saying before, but somebody does a strategy works well, and then everybody jumps on the bandwagon and tries to do their own. And you end up with that multiplicity theory where the version is getting less and less quality each day are you
Michael F Schein [34:58]
what I do and take from it what you will I mean, the thing I do is I’m constantly stuffing my head full of stuff. So I read a lot. And I’m lucky that I get to read a lot, because remember, I was a writer first. So sometimes it feels, I see all these people talking about how I need to read more, they talk about reading, like, it’s this, eat your broccoli thing. And like to me, like, I feel guilty when I’m reading, because even though I know how useful it is to make, I mean, it’s my favourite thing in the world to do. And when I, what I, what I don’t do is I don’t read, I read all the business books, but I think that if you’re reading, you know, Seven Habits of Highly Effective People and four hour workweek and atomic habits and all this stuff, and that’s all you read, you may as well not I mean that, you know, that that’s like table stakes. You know, I mean, that doesn’t give you new ideas, everyone has the same idea. I would even say read the business books, but also read stuff about whatever you’re interested, if you’re into quantum mechanics read about that, if you’re into rugby, read about the history of rugby, because your brain will make connections, you know, human brains are pattern making machines, your brain will make connections between your field and all this other out there stuff that you never would have thought of, I happen to be very good at that, you know what I mean? I mean, people have different talents, some people are good at accounting, that happens to be, you know, my, my talent. So I don’t want to say that this is easy, but it is easier when a lot of stuff is floating around your head. And I would say the second thing, and anyone should be doing this experiment. So you know, if if you hit on your for our whatever your version of that, or some marketing strategy, sales strategy, anything hype strategy, whatever you call it bits working, keep milking that cow until it’s not working anymore. You know, I mean, there’s no reason to give up early. However, you should also be conducting small experiments. To make sure you’ve teed up the next thing, nothing huge. Don’t spend 20 grand, don’t embarrass yourself publicly before you know if it’s going to work, but conduct small wacky experiments, because every single thing that works at some point, eventually doesn’t work. It might only last six months, it might last 30 years. But everything starts to fail eventually, you know, Kodak less than 150 years, right? But digital cameras came out. So you have to have that creative lab where you’re always experimenting, but at the same time milk, your cash cow, I mean, I don’t stand on ceremony. If something is working, man, just just keep running with it until it doesn’t work anymore. Just make sure you don’t get bank, make sure you have something else in the hopper. We did
David Ralph [37:47]
a podcast episode recently, or I did nobody else does this on the reticular activating system in your brain when you get really interested in something and then your brain starts sort of building connections. And so if you are interested in buying a new Jaguar car, suddenly you see Jaguar cars everywhere, which you never noticed. Now, back once again, same as another stake in the ground that you have, that you get really interested in. And you really dig deep into it, which then starts building those connections even
Michael F Schein [38:21]
you I do do that. I mean, you know I sometimes to a fault. You know, I have the hype thing, the hype kind of concept, which I’ve gotten, fortunately, some quite a bit of traction around. It’s been a big success for me, was something that I was just happen to be interested in these kinds of figures are have always been fascinating to me and aligned with my work life, right. But there are times where I’ve gotten interested in things that I can’t really see the connection to what I’m doing. And that can feel like a waste of time. That being said, I mean, your show is called Join Up Dots. I mean, we all know the very famous story of Steve Jobs taking the calligraphy class for no reason except for the fact that he was interested, right. And then it became the basis of all fonts or printmaking class, not calligraphy, or typesetting. Class. So I mean, I would say, I am assuming that your whole philosophy is based on the idea that there’s if as long as you’re digging deep, you’re going to use it at some point, even if you don’t it makes life a lot richer.
David Ralph [39:27]
Yeah, absolutely. Every experience leads to something. And it doesn’t matter, the dark times the good times whatever it is only when you you sit and you expect things to happen, which you know, take us back to the secret society. Few years ago, there was the secret book and your secret bill. And everybody felt that they just had to sit there and wish for something and it it turned up. You know, it’s
Michael F Schein [39:54]
a very actually harmful philosophy that Rhonda burns secret stuff, maybe She’s a real hype artist. But that’s a whole other story, a negative hype artist, as far as I’m concerned. Yeah,
David Ralph [40:05]
I agree. I like the idea of having such strong belief and a vision and working towards something, but not just about, you only have to think about it. And it turns out,
Michael F Schein [40:16]
it’s more of that reticular activating system that you describe the idea that if you know, if I’m obsessed with a certain thing, and opportunity that I never would have noticed now comes to the forefront, I walk up to the person in a cafe, so it feels like fate. But that’s not science, that’s not the universe giving you frequencies or whatever, that’s just nonsense.
David Ralph [40:41]
But you have put yourself in that position, you haven’t just sat on the sofa, humming. You’ve got off and walked where that person what I’m
Michael F Schein [40:48]
saying, right, I mean, and I think I think, you know, hard work is great. But just there are a lot of hard working people who don’t get rich don’t build their dreams, whatever, you know, because hard work, you can be a cobbler making shoes all day or you know, or whatever work in the store all day or just grind away or work for a boss who it takes all the fruits of your labours right? I mean, whatever, or have your own business and not get out into the world. So hard work is important. But a big part of hard work that people don’t understand is putting yourself in lots of situations, so that you can find the patterns when they emerge. Like I used to go to New York City a lot. And I’m starting to do it again, I couldn’t do it in the pandemic, but I would just constantly be trying to get to know people and meet people and have dinner with people. And a lot of that led to nothing. But I always knew that if I had an idea, I would be in the position to connect with someone and make that idea happen, because I had spent the hours kind of connect making these connections, and that sort of thing. So some of it’s about being prolific, not just about grinding away, it’s about throwing a lot of bets out there.
David Ralph [42:07]
So without making this podcast episode go on for three hours. And I’d be quite happy with this. I mean, I’m intrigued with somebody out there sitting there and they haven’t got any platform, they haven’t got any basis to start, how could they set about creating a secret society or a hype strategy on their own, what would be the first thing that you would say that without any resources at all, just by themselves, they could start to make something happen for themselves.
Michael F Schein [42:37]
I left a corporate job about 12 years ago. And I had savings in the bank but enough for about a year to live on. And I moved from South Florida to Miami to be in a completely new industry. So I don’t want to make myself out like I climbed up from, you know, penury and poverty. Because I didn’t, I had a year’s worth of savings and whatever. And you know, had had a corporate job and this and that, however, I had, I knew I had no connections in the field I wanted to be in, I had no income. And all of this, what I did was, I thought about what are things, my assets that I have that are cheap for me to give up and easy for me to give up? But very valuable to other people? And then how can I connect with people around non business things. So I’ll give you two examples of that. So when I first about a year into this experience, I talked to my way into writing a column for ink, digital version of Ink Magazine for free, not getting paid. And as a result, I got to interview a guy who, who had literally from his garage from his actual garage started a half billion dollar company. So this guy had just moved from Indianapolis to New York, and I interviewed him and he was very polite, but you could tell he was just going through the motions. And at a certain point, he brought up the fact that, you know, he loved music. And one of the reasons he moved from Indianapolis to New York was because he had never gotten to see lots of live music. Now this guy could get a private jet and fly anywhere, but he just wasn’t tapped in. I happen to be I was still like, 32 still doing some of that. So I said, I’ll show you around, I’ll show you two things. This guy became my biggest mentor, because I gave the man who had everything. The one thing you didn’t have, I showed him where the cool bands were playing. Right. So what do you know? I mean, are you good at a certain subject in school that someone’s friend, you know, kid needs help with? I mean, you can get really creative, right? And that’s a really great way to meet, you know, bond with the kind of people who can help you. And then I think the other thing is, I think people use social media wrong. Sometimes what I would do is I would sort of been Never literally stock people I wanted to know. So like, I write about Andrew Loog Oldham in the hype handbook, who is the Rolling Stones original manager and he was I really find this guy insanely fascinating. And he was like a god of rock history to me. I mean, it’s a Rowling’s, he roomed with Mick Jagger, you know, as a kid. And so I saw that he was on Twitter, and I quoted him to himself from his book. Now, this is a guy who at once was on top of the world, he does find now he has a radio show. But he doesn’t usually get quoted, you know, on social media. So he responded, and he was kind of happy with it. I said, Hey, can I interview you? Oh, wow, I stroked his ego. Before long I was having breakfast with him. He was coming in New York, and I got to know this guy really well and got access to that world. So if you can, you know, if you if you share a favourite sports team with someone a favourite band, you know, this, that and the other, connect with someone who’s a human, don’t hit someone up and say, Can I pick your brain for business advice, they get that stuff every day. But if you can try to help people with things that you can give up that they may not have access to. And hopefully that’s not just money or things, it’s things that are unique to you. And if you can connect around human things, and social media gives you that access, it’s amazing how simple it is to get to know the kind of people who can accelerate your career.
David Ralph [46:22]
Yeah, great advice. Really, really powerful advice. So Michael, um, for those listening, what’s the number one best way that they can connect with
Michael F Schein [46:30]
you. But one thing I did learn about traditional marketing is that you should always have one call to action. So you know, my company’s called microfilm media and all this, you can look it up. But I would say that just like I said, the first time, if you want to know my whole, my whole thing, you know, all my secrets, just go to wherever books are sold, Amazon, whatever it is, and type in the hype handbook and check that thing out. that’ll that’ll really give you the best view into into my stuff and into what I do.
David Ralph [46:58]
And we’ll have all the links in the show notes, Michael, as always, thank you so much for spending time with us today, joining up those dots. And please come back again when you’ve got more dots to join up because I believe that by joining up the dots and connecting our paths is the best way to build our futures. Michael F shine.
Michael F Schein [47:15]
Thanks. Thanks for putting up with my my rasp I really had a great time.
David Ralph [47:22]
So Michael F shy Yeah, those psychological triggers those things that we’re all attracted to. If you can now that and you can bring that into your business, you really don’t struggle for marketing, it kind of takes care of itself. And we’re all we’re all seduced by that we are all dealing with advertising and and marketing strategies are all played to those those personal deep rooted triggers. Michael understands it, Michael brings it into his business and has become very successful quickly because of it and you can do exactly the same. So my friends, and have another episode you look after yourself. See again, and yeah, Cheers. Bye bye. Do you dream of having a lifestyle you control working when you want where you want around the world? Then join us as we teach you the skills to make it happen. Our entrepreneur group coaching takes you through the step by step process to becoming a multiple six figure earning entrepreneur, struggling to come up with great business ideas or perhaps you’re already working hard but failing to make an income you want. We have the whole puzzle of online success covered. Find out more by heading over to join up dots.com forward slash six and finding out more.
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