Patrick Kayton Joins Us On The Steve Jobs Inspired Join Up Dots Podcast
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Introducing Patrick Kayton
Patrick Kayton is todays guest joining us on the Steve Jobs inspired Join Up Dots business coaching podcast.
He is a man who has spent all his life being fascinated by what makes people tick.
And when it comes to working out why some people learn really easily, whilst others struggle then he is your man to go to.
Is it about the style of teaching, or the style of thinking that helps people learn?
Wow that’s a deep question to start with straight away, but hey, what a great question to ask, as todays guest has built his whole success around developing Cognician an interface needed to create discussions and ask insightful questions within the e-learning process.
How The Dots Joined Up For Patrick
Along with his brother, Barry he realised that there was a world out there that felt that e-learning lacked engagement, and was simply a platform based around multiple choices.
And I agree with them whole heartedly.
As they say At Cognician, “We believe that anyone is capable of learning something new if they have the right tools. It’s our mission to make such tools and to create the best online learning experience possible, which leads to sustainable behaviour change.
People don’t change easily. And giving them information won’t solve the problem on its own. If you want to change people’s behaviour, you need to start by changing the way they think. One really powerful way to do that is to give them new questions to ask. New questions turn their thinking in new directions. New thinking leads to new revelations. And these aha moments are what lead to genuine shift.”
Well let’s bring onto the show to start joining up dots, as we discuss the words of Steve Jobs in todays Free podcast, with the one and only Mr Patrick Kayton.
Show Highlights
During the show we discussed such weighty topics with Patrick Kayton such as:
How he had a revelation as a kid when he stared at his bookshelf and realised within the pages of those books were littered with ideas and theories!
How people think that they have to keep everything they have, and are scared to loosen their grip even if there is a chance of a better future!
How he recalls two great bits of advice from his Father….Number one: “Life is never a straight line”
And Number Two: No matter what part of your life you are in at that time it will come to an end….whether it’s good and bad!
And lastly…..
How he became aware that people think differently and was convinced that those different thoughts made the world a richer place
How To Connect With Patrick Kayton
Return To The Top Of Patrick Kayton
If you enjoyed this episode with Patrick Kayton then why not listen to some of our favourite podcast episodes such as Geoff Thompson, James Nord, Dan Lok or the amazing Noah Kagan
Or if you prefer just pop over to our podcast archive for thousands of amazing episodes to choose from.
Audio Transcription Of Patrick Kayton Interview
Intro [0:00]
When we’re young, we have an amazing positive outlook about how great life is going to be. But somewhere along the line we forget to dream and end up settling. Join Up Dots features amazing people who refuse to give up and chose to go after their dreams. This is your blueprint for greatness. So here’s your host live from the back of his garden in the UK, David Ralph.
David Ralph [0:26]
Yes, hello, bear world. Welcome to another episode of Join Up Dots. This is Episode 179. And I’m really enjoying myself today I’m doing back to back interviews, and I’m having amazing conversations with people. And today’s one is gonna be really amazing because this guy, this guy, he’s a kindred spirit, I can feel it when I read his background. He is a man who has spent all his life being fascinated by what makes people tick. And when it comes to working out why some people learn really easily was our struggle. Ben, he’s your man to go to he is it about the startup teaching, or a style of thinking that helps people learn? Well, that’s a deep question to start with straight away. But hey, what a great question to ask. As today’s guest has built his whole success around developing cognition and interface needed to create discussions and ask insightful questions within the learning process. Along with his brother Barry, he realised that it was a world out there that fell, but he learning lacked engagement, and with simply a platform based around multiple choices, and I have to say I agree with him wholeheartedly. As they say it cognition. We believe that anyone is capable of learning something new if I had the right tools, is our mission to make such tools and to create the best online learning experience possible, which leads to sustainable behaviour change. Now people don’t change easily and giving them information won’t solve the problem on its own. If you want to change people’s behaviour, you need to start by changing the way they think one really powerful way to do that is to give them new questions to ask new questions turn their thinking in New York actions, new thinking leads to new revelations. And these aha moments are what lead to genuine a ship lover. Now this man is someone who is speaking my language, big time. So it’s with huge delight. But I get to bring on to the show to start Join Up Dots, the one and only Mr. Patrick Katyton, how are you, Patrick?
Patrick Kayton [2:18]
I’m very well, indeed. Thank you and better after that fantastic introduction. And we’re looking for a marketing manager at the moment. And if you want to give up your podcasting, you’re welcome to join us
David Ralph [2:28]
with it fail feel like work, Patrick? Because I absolutely
Patrick Kayton [2:31]
not. I’m now
David Ralph [2:33]
in that state of my life. But if it’s not fun, I ain’t gonna do it. Absolutely. And that’s what everybody in this company believes. So is that sort of inherent with your company? Because it is basically I’m on the first plane over about
Patrick Kayton [2:48]
it absolutely is, you know, we’re really hard workers, but we enjoy the work that we do. And and I think everybody who is with us and his family of the belief that it’s an absolute absolutely point in spending eight plus hours of your day doing something you don’t enjoy it. But mind boggles that anybody would do that?
David Ralph [3:07]
Well, it does, doesn’t it. And that’s one of the reasons I started this show way back in time, I realised that I was going through the motions, I was at a job, but I didn’t hate, I just was bored with my mojo had gone, I’d got to a point where I could just do it with my eyes shot. And then I’d come home, and I’d go back the next day and not do it again. And it just seemed like my life was on poles somehow. So for you to be creating something, not just for yourself, but for the world and your employees. I’m going to salute you sir, actually, I’m going to give you a round of applause. There you go, live a little bit of a sound effect to get you going. So So do you really sort of wake up every morning and love your job.
Patrick Kayton [3:50]
I do indeed. And there are a number of things that get me out of bed in the morning. And one of them is my toddler when she’s crying.
But I think that the thing that is always interested in excited me about about this business, and the technology we have built in the place we came before from before we were doing this is that people are constantly changing and and that it can be for the better or for the worse. And everybody has the power of changing for the better if they just have the right tools and the right guidance. And that usually starts with asking the right questions. And you know, this is a little revelation that I had when I was very young. And I made more and more sense out of it as I got older. And eventually, I think you could call it you could say I guess you know, the kind of the stars aligned that in that I was at a point in my life where I was running a business with my brother, the business was successful from a point of view of having created really powerful stuff, you know, really good products. But we went very successful from a business model point of view. And we spent an enormous amount of time I’m trying to think about how to bring together in a kind of a confluence all these different things that we knew were fundamental human truths, valuable ideas that really could make a difference in the world. And suddenly, bang, we hadn’t this idea of building a piece of technology that has ultimately turned into this whole business cognition. And from that moment, and they were different, kind of callings. Were waking me up every morning saying you are doing the right thing, you’re doing a powerful thing, you’re doing a good thing. And, and it’s never stopped.
David Ralph [5:35]
I had that same feeling every morning, every morning, I literally bound out of bed where the years, I was always I’ve always been quite good getting out of bed to be honest. But yeah, now it’s like, I can’t wait. And even before my eyes have opened, I’m starting to think what I can do VISTA day. And I can do that. And it’s it really is what I want the world I want the people out there that is listening to these shows on a daily basis to realise that you in a job, but you you’re unhappy with their has other jobs. Or you can do it better in that job. If you if you just you lost your inspiration somehow, like I did, you can only ever have that leap of faith and jump. Or you can just go Now why am I feeling this way? Why? Why did I used to love this job, and now I’m a bit bored and do something about it. It’s a very trendy, I was expecting a longer answer than that, Patrick, that was that was a passionate expression of my feelings where
Patrick Kayton [6:29]
it will let me give you a longer answer. And I think many people who find themselves waking up in the morning and regretting you know, regretting in advance going to work. And I probably feel like they’re stuck for a number of reasons that have nothing to do with work, or have nothing to do with their lack of motivation for going to work, they might be stuck because they’re too busy doing other things that get them to stop making a change, they might feel as though making the change would somehow come with an incredible loss. And so there’s fear, there’s risk involved in making change. And and then there’s something that most people don’t, don’t even ever get to realise that there are processes for doing things that reduce risk, and enable you to follow a path that is more likely to be successful. And that begins with with really healthy thinking habits. And some people are more naturally will, it would appear that they’re more naturally better critical thinkers than others. And so they can take a look at their situations, their scenarios and laugh and be objective about them and apply a really great practice and think like an expert about how to tackle the challenge that they’re dealing with. And the truth is that nobody is naturally born with those skills. There are a number of different life experiences or educational experiences that stack up to make people better thinkers than others. And people who are better thinkers are likely to have a a better time in their lives dealing with difficult situations. So they’re less likely to feel like they’re stuck in a rut, because they recognise that, you know, I’m going to great bit of advice my dad gave me when I was really young. He said, you know, and and i think he was probably trying to console me in some kind of difficult moment and some kind of trying challenge that I was going through, he said, and with two things, actually, we would repeatedly said to me last never a straight line. That sounds so kind of folksy and, and basic, but it really helped. And it helped my young years to know that you’re constantly going to be facing twists and turns. And the other thing is he said, no matter what difficult situation you’re in, remember, it always comes to an end. It always comes to an end, it always gives way to something else. And while you’re in it, you just have to remind yourself that there’s an end. And people who are really great thinkers are able to go Okay, well, there’s an end. And there’s obviously a number of different routes that I could take to get to the end, let me explore what some of the different ones look like. And let me explore traders are involved in taking the different paths. And let me understand what the benefits are of going down these different roads. And then now that I’ve understood what a live will look like, let me let me choose one, it’s really unlikely that you’re going to be stuck and not move forward, if you’re able to be able to explore things in that way. And so this is what cognition I guess is all about is that we realise that and to bring structure and process and powerful concepts and powerful mental models to bear on your challenges makes you a much happier, more effective, motivated person.
David Ralph [9:38]
I think that is a marvellous statements that your dad made to you. He if your dad sounds like Yoda, he sounds so wise.
Patrick Kayton [9:48]
Just not short and green with pointy ears. But yeah, he is a wise man.
David Ralph [9:51]
Yeah, life is never a straight line. And that’s really what this shows about that, you know, you can’t join up the dots going forward, but you can look back and realise where you you’ve got to just by those choices, those decisions you made, and that kind of perseverance to go through. So growing up with your dad and your brother, obviously, which you’re now working with, what was was it an entrepreneurial vibe that you was in was it always going to be the case that you were going to go into where you are now because you seem to me, if I was growing up, and I had you as a teacher, I think you would inspire me, I think you’ve got that vibe, and you would make a very good teacher.
Patrick Kayton [10:30]
And I was a teacher for a short time and in Taiwan. And you know, I guess I’ve been involved in education for a long time, but it was never mind to be a teacher all my life. But I think it’s probably the most noble profession. And there is so sad that it’s probably one of the least paid or one of the worst paid professions around the world. And, you know, you think about it, you take your, your child, you know, I take my tablet to a paediatrician and, and you know, I’m hundreds of pounds down by the time I walked through the door, and but I can send my child to school. And, you know, one or two paediatrician visit says this here close to the annual school fees. And I’m not knocking paediatricians and I think that’s a fantastic job. I mean, no, not at all. But why is it that there’s such a major disparity between what a teacher gets paid and what a doctor gets paid? And it’s really curious, anyway, but probably not similar topic I want to explore, you asked about my, my dad and my brother, and we probably didn’t live in a very entrepreneurial household, but only because we, we never really thought about all the different kinds of businesses that we could start that came later. My dad, the closest sort of thinking my dad has to kind of entrepreneurial thinking is that, and he grew up really poor. And he had many, so many businesses that he ran, he was he was working business, South African would not even sure if it’s a South African words most and, you know, a kind of a whole career salesperson, as a young young kid, he would do that he would go down to the ocean side, and collect crabs and sell them to the ocean area. And, and lots of little things like that, you know, he had buy and sell and Record Rack and then around the neighbourhood. And so he’s always had that that kind of idea, you know, how can you take something that’s valueless, and turn it into something that’s valuable. And my brother was a different kind of inspiration. And he remains so to this day, I’ve never met a more effective and potent think of him very. And he’s just the kind of person who asked lots of powerful questions. And for as long as I can remember, and you read voraciously, so, and by the time I was sort of 10, or 11 years old, I was surrounded by lots of books. And I was encouraged to read lots of books, we shared a room together. And you know, he would always pass on new books to me. I had this revelation at about 11 years old that all of the books I was reading, were trying to convey some kind of new and powerful idea. And they weren’t just storeys about I was remember eating animal farm. And I realised that this isn’t a storey about animals. This is a storey about an idea. And that felt incredibly empowering to me. And, and I didn’t even think I knew what the word empowering meant at the time. But But looking back that that’s the way I felt, I felt more powerful for knowing that. And I remember looking up at the bookshelf that was in our room and thinking, wow, all of those books must be about ideas like this, and all of them must be so empowering. And somebody taking the trouble to articulate a storey and and and mould a storey around an idea. And when I realised that that was probably the beginning of my fascination with the idea that people think differently, I was already aware that the ideas are all over the bookshelf couldn’t possibly be all in common with each other, there’s no way that all of those authors would have agreed with each other. And it seemed to make the world a much richer place. And, and I became quite obsessed with the idea of learning about as many of those ideas as possible. And, you know, just jumping around here a bit with my thinking is, I don’t know if you know the name, Charlie Munger, Charlie Munger is Warren Buffett’s business partner. Yeah. So
David Ralph [14:22]
when you said it, I was thinking, who’s Charlie Munger? Yes, I do recognise that.
Patrick Kayton [14:26]
Yeah. So monger has this great phrase that he says his investment decisions are influenced by latticework of mental models. And what it means by that is that he spent his career building up different models for looking at the world and understanding the world. And the more and different kinds of models you’re able to bring to bear and your challenges, the clearer the solutions become. And that’s, you know, what it meant to me, I didn’t know, obviously, I wasn’t able to connect these dots. But looking back as a young person reading a lot, and I have a lot of different models, I’m able to apply to the world, certainly not as many as manga can, and certainly not so many that have this kind of investment presence. But I think that that’s a powerful thing that not enough people know about, you know, there’s a reason you want the ideas in your head, because you can connect the dots between them and draw them out where necessary and apply them to different situations. And it happens so fast, you barely even realise it’s happening. But people who are able to bring lots of ideas to bear in the challenges, more effective, more powerful people. That’s fascinating.
David Ralph [15:35]
But as an 11 year old, you were battle aware, you know, I when I was 11, I was trying to think what I was doing, was I reading sort of books like that? No, I don’t know what I was doing as an 11 year old, really. So for you to have that realisation that there was knowledge, there was ideas, it was people to thinking that had created these things. Now, as an adult, do you look back and kind of go, yeah, that’s actually quite astonishing.
Patrick Kayton [16:03]
I do think it’s certainly strange. And I’m sure that you know, the idea is when is fully formed as they are now. And but I certainly, it was a moment that was an epiphany that stayed with me ever since and influenced a lot of what happened after that,
David Ralph [16:17]
that now you’re working with your Bravo as she was talking about your brother, and how he is to you. I grew up with a brother, and he listens to all the show. So if you’re listening to Steven love, yeah, and thanks for listening, and all that kind of stuff. And we used to fight all the time, we was always punching each other. When you’re in the boardroom, Do you ever feel like getting buried in a headlock and giving him Did you it? Does that kind of rapidly kind of intensity come out ever?
Patrick Kayton [16:46]
No, no, it never has. The
you know, we often get asked that question because people think it’s unusual that the brothers could work together. And, and Funny enough, when you meet other sibling business partners, they usually have the same kind of curious reaction to that, that go, yeah, you know, any people who make it work and understand. And we went through the process of joining an entrepreneurial organisation last year called endeavour, and which is a fantastic I mean, if anybody is listening wants to look at that just search for endeavour and on the web. And it’s, it’s a great organisation, global organisation for encouraging emerging entrepreneurs and emerging economy entrepreneurs, and helping them to grow their businesses. Anyway, we were going through the international selection process. And out of the 20 odd companies that were there, I think there was something like four or five companies that were run by siblings. And we all had the same kind of impression, you know, who else would you choose? Is your business partner? Well, absolutely no one, because nobody knows me as well. And nobody, there’s nobody that our trust as well. And, and, you know, nobody who can kind of complete your sentences as as coherently as they can. So, and it’s a relationship that has only ever worked well, for us.
David Ralph [18:04]
He certainly sounds like it’s flourishing. So So how did this idea come with cognition, because when I, when I was reading about it, I thought to myself, Oh, God, I should have had this. I was in management for many, many years. And I used to have to get people to do e learning courses. And I always used to test them out beforehand. And they used to bore me, stupidly, were just some weird picture, somebody drawn, and then ABC at the bottom, and then I’d go to the next one. And I used to test it out sometimes. And I might just go on that one beyond that one, see on that one, or cannot spell words, cab, ABC back, and just see if I could pass on that. And more of the not I got close to it, you know, sometimes I passed or not. And I used to think this is lunacy, I could just whisper movies and get that. But to be able to do something about actually pose these questions. I think that’s inspiring. And I think that’s amazing. And I’m, I would like to do one of your courses now, because I like to get asked questions. Do you? Do you find that that is the way of the world now people actually like to be tested? Or do people like to do what I did and just go agency BC and sort of try to get through them?
Patrick Kayton [19:15]
I don’t think anyone likes to be tested. And, and, you know, there are very few of the kind of modules that we offer that have anything to do with with being tested, wherever possible, that working through the module itself is your learning journey. And it’s the journey that’s more important than that than the test that comes at the end. And so wherever possible, we like to build what we call. And it’s not just as really what what is known as performance support. So the conversations, the structured conversations, the scripted conversations that we build, are intended to guide you through a difficult process. And so we asked the kind of questions that an expert would ask and we curate those questions from experts capture them together, in the scripted conversation we call a coaching guide or a kg, then you can ask the questions about your scenario, your personal context that somebody who’s much more experienced would ask. And in so doing, you are doing the work, you are completing the challenge. What’s the point in being tested on whether you’ve done it or not? You just did it? Well, yeah, that’s our Yeah, that’s, you know, so often tests are no preparation at all, for the real thing. And another one of those just purely bizarre things are just and I’m surprised that the school around the reason that most tests exist, the way they do in schools is to make the assessment easy for teachers. And, and the reason that we need to make assessment easy for teachers because teachers have to teach too many people and, and into short space of time, and a too many too difficult constraints. So you know, we want to get into rent mode, take a look at the difference between education in 1850. And then 1950. And the present day, if you took a photograph of a classroom from 1850 1950, and the present day, what do you think would be different in the classrooms, you’d have kids sitting on chairs, on wouldn’t desks facing a blackboard accepted, maybe in some schools, today, the blackboard might be a smart board. And the teachers still standing at the front and writing stuff up on a board. And, and the kids are still listening to the teacher talk. And if the teachers really good, the teacher might ask them insightful questions, and then kind of stand back and let them debate up the responses. And but most of the time, the teacher scribbles and formulas on a board, and then kind of stands aside. And if you think about other advancements that have happened in the same period of time, and you know, the last 50 years have been like a Cambrian period for noon inventions and new discoveries and new economic models, and, and we’re a different species in because of it. But what is actually changing education, it’s very sad. And I think education is in crisis everywhere. And it’s the most important thing, you know, you probably think about health, and education think the most important things that people need to look after in their lives. And it’s not just stuck in this kind of old world model. It’s also confined by these periods of time you go to school, and then you leave school and you go to university, or maybe some kind of tertiary education, perhaps, and then you go into the working world. And unless you work for a very enlightened company, that’s the end of your education. Well, that’s just ridiculous, because the world is changing at such a rapid and can write in such a continuous way. Everything you’ve learned during that period of time at school, and many tertiary institutions completely out of debt the next year. And, and we need to, you know, I think really a lot of people complain about the millennials, you know, used to be people born in the late 90s, and sort of early noughties and moved into the workforce now, or born and born during the 1970s and workforce now, and but the one thing that they’re actually really good at, is recognising that information is ubiquitous, and they’re quite willing to go and find out new stuff and explore it. And, and if you look at people age 40 Plus, not so keen on doing that, you know, and they spent their time studying. And this is our experience and the organisations we deal with. And they’re not completely averse to it, but they’ve spent a tonne of studying and now they’re kind of in leadership roles. And, you know, studying is for the for the kids. And, and I think they’re going to hit a bit of a speed bump in the next few years. Because there are 20 somethings who are coming along, and for all of you. And the shortcomings that a lot of people might talk about with the millennial generation, they’re really, really good. Keeping up with new stuff. And recognising the changes is continuous, rapid, and just learning new things on the fly. And I think that’s the world we live in now. You need to learn fast and, and continually.
David Ralph [24:14]
I agree with you totally. And I have to say, Patrick, that was the most calm rent I’ve ever heard in my life. If every word was chosen to perfection, I agree with you totally. And I have these conversations on a daily basis with people and be successful pretty much go. Everything I learned at school hasn’t done me any good at all. Now, I don’t want to say that out loud, really. Because there’s going to be kids going, Hey, he just said that, and I don’t need to go to school is very, very important to do that.
Patrick Kayton [24:42]
Yeah. But there’s a different way of thinking about that too, as well. I’ll get back to that later.
David Ralph [24:46]
We’ll come back to that. But I just think that what we should do is do not education, inspiration, this is my word I’ve created. And it’s like inspiration, and education. So we find the things that kids come alive, Yvonne. And we develop that because that’s their core strength. That’s the things that they love. And I remember going into classes, and looking back on it now and go, Oh, I love that teacher. Why did I love him? Well, it was just the way he made me feel it was the way that he inspired me. And the other ones I don’t remember at all, they obviously just were going through the motions. And I remember those teachers that would say, right, okay, turn to page 152. And write that in your book. And I used to think even at that age, what’s the point? You know, I’ve got it in the book, why am I writing it again, it just seemed like lunacy to me. So I do think that we are just basically trapped in this conveyor belt to push people through to employment. So we push them through a tube that they come out the other end straight into another tube, and they’re trapped somewhat. And that’s what this show is all about is about telling people, that it’s up to you to make informed choices. It’s up to you to go a different path if you want to, and question and be aware and never stop learning. Because the learning part of your life, it should just be the beginning. You should learn all the way through. Now that’s, that was a rant when it that’s how you do it, sir. So so I’ve been reading something about you. And I’d want to come back to your point. But there’s something weird about you. And I, I love this because it’s really weird. on your website, it says you occasionally default to communicating through some lyrics and movie quotes. How do you do that? When you’re talking to somebody? Do you actually burst into song? Or do you just slip the song lyric in so that they don’t actually know that you’re doing it? How do you actually communicate in that way?
Unknown Speaker [26:47]
I don’t know that
Patrick Kayton [26:51]
these things kind of happened on the fly. And I’m a big movie lover, and I’m a big music lover. And I think my brain is as full of
music lyrics is it is full of ideas, and
David Ralph [27:04]
they get they get caught up in an opportunity that does anybody sort of join you when you’re in the office? And you sort of go Yeah, I got, I got chills, they’re multiplying. And then suddenly, you’re doing grease and it’s like
Unknown Speaker [27:17]
an episode of Glee in your office.
Patrick Kayton [27:20]
And yeah, Barry and I’ve been communicating like that since we were a kid Sadie. Now we don’t get to do much of that because he’s gone off to California to establish cognition nk on the west coast. And occasionally, we still do get get up to that kind of Mr. follower on me tickles. Well, if
David Ralph [27:38]
you’re ever in London, and you want a few pints, and a bit of karaoke, I’m your man.
Patrick Kayton [27:44]
That’ll be the 30th and the 31st of October will be my next trip to Lana. David, I’ll give you a call.
David Ralph [27:50]
You give us a call. And we will be hugging each other and telling each other that we love each other and singing. I don’t know that the theme tune from Titanic or something? That would be great. But
Patrick Kayton [28:01]
can we not Celine Dion is an exception. We leave her out of this.
David Ralph [28:04]
Okay. All right, which song you’re going to go for?
Patrick Kayton [28:08]
I can adjust. I’m flexible.
David Ralph [28:10]
What what is what is your your karaoke song that when you go in there is the first one that you do?
Patrick Kayton [28:17]
It’s a very good question. And
one of those coming to mind right now is crazy little thing called queen.
Unknown Speaker [28:24]
That’s a good one.
Patrick Kayton [28:25]
I’m also going to spout a bit of danger alive and Eastern era. Okay.
David Ralph [28:31]
So you’ve got a hybrid hybrid approach I’m going with might do a director’s cut of this show, and just have you singing it all the way through and we’re with, we’re stick that on the end, I want to play one of our motivational speeches because it does sort of emphasise what we were talking about earlier about really going for what you love. And this is Jim Carrey, and this was what you said recently. So I’m really glad to get your point of view on this, Jim Carrey.
Jim Carrey [28:55]
My father could have been a great comedian, but he didn’t believe that that was possible for him. And so he made a conservative choice. Instead, he got a safe job as an accountant. And when I was 12 years old, he was let go from that safe job. And our family had to do whatever we could to survive. I learned many great lessons from my father, not the least of which was that you can fail at what you don’t want. So you might as well take a chance on doing what you love.
David Ralph [29:21]
Is that the true message that we should get through to kids, adults, everyone?
Patrick Kayton [29:27]
Absolutely, I think that’s fantastic. I’ve never heard much that comes out of Jim Carrey. His motto was intended to be serious, and I love him for that. But that was really great.
David Ralph [29:36]
He did a speech to graduates and it kind of went viral. And it’s about a 28 minute speech. And it’s really worthwhile watching, because a lot of it was kind of classic Jim Carrey playing for laughs Yeah. But then he hits this middle bit. And that just that one line really made me think, Wow, this is amazing. And then I started putting in the show. And so many people have said yes, I thought it was amazing a work as well. And it’s kind of as you say, you don’t expect him to say it. But there’s such a simplistic truth to that. But we don’t hold true in our hearts. We go in the education system, we come out, we get into responsibility, we kind of almost trap ourselves by the situation, but more so by mindset. And if you say to people, you know, how’s the work at the moment is a job. And I just think surely we should be like, like you Patrick’s bring out a bed every morning to go and do something because everyone can can’t make a choice I need to make.
Patrick Kayton [30:38]
Yeah, absolutely. And so I got distracted for a second because you were already making you think imaginatively, but ya know that that’s exactly it. There’s a what I was bit distracted with was
a reading that I gave it my
my high school prize prize giving in 1995. And I chose not to give up. It was the I was the deputy head boy. And then what we had the traditional role of the Deputy Head boy was to read something from Scripture, I chose not to read anything from the Scripture. And I chose a passage written by a guy named john barrows. And and I think it’s really relevant. So can I can I read it? Absolutely. You
David Ralph [31:19]
go for it, sir.
Patrick Kayton [31:21]
So at the time, I was trying to think of something that seemed to make sense, and for people leaving school and and and, you know, sort of entering the world of work and moving on. And I don’t think I realised just how prescient this passage was at the time for what I’d be doing with my life later. And, and how much the work that I do is based on the core idea in this passage, anyways, here goes, What is the best thing for a stream is to keep moving. If it stops, it stagnates. So the best thing for a man is that which keeps the parents going, the physical, moral and the intellectual parents, hence the secret of happiness, just something to do some congenial work. Take away the occupation of all men, and what a wretched world it would be. few persons realise how much of their happiness is dependent upon their work, upon the fact that they’re kept busy and not left feed upon themselves. Happiness comes most persons, who secret least, and think least about it. It’s not an object to be sold. It is a state to be induced. It must follow and not lead. It must overtake you, not you overtake yet. How important is health to happiness? it the best promoter of health has something to do? bless it is the man who has some congenial work, some occupation in which he can put his heart and which affords a complete outlet, all the forces there are in
Unknown Speaker [32:51]
chilliwack. That’s great.
David Ralph [32:53]
I think that’s astonishing. I’ve never heard that before. That’s by john barrows. Was it?
Patrick Kayton [32:57]
Yeah. And, and to be honest, I didn’t know who john barrows is. But I was, I was looking for something at the time that I in the dead, I think captured what was in my heart mind, which was that there was no way I was going to spend my life doing something that didn’t occupy me heart and soul. And, and I think that’s just the most important thing, some, so much of the rest of the health and happiness of your life, rests on you spending your time literally spending the majority of your time doing something that fulfils you, and if you manage to get that right, and I know it’s not easy, you know, and I think that it’s kind of fallacious to tell a young person, that they’re going to get it right the first time, or to expect them to know what the hell it is, and they don’t have to, but as long as they keep searching for it, and and, and, and they know that they, the search itself, just just that active of knowing it’s important to find something congenial, fulfilling, and as long as you’re in pursuit of it, and you’re going to be healthier and happier just because of that. And sometimes it takes enormous amount of time for people to find out what is fulfilling to them, but the pursuit is worthwhile. You know, we’re working on a one of the products we’re working on at the moment is called strength engage, and it’s a whole online learning experience, a self coaching experience, that gets you to think about your gallops Clifton Strengths Finder, assessment results. And then if you’re familiar with Strengths Finder,
David Ralph [34:34]
yeah, I’ve actually taken it myself. What are your top five strengths? I will tell you why she bought these out because I saw it on your website and I thought, I know he’s going to ask me this. My top five number one a futuristic,
Patrick Kayton [34:45]
I was gonna say futuristic, I would have guessed it. Yeah, number
David Ralph [34:48]
two maximizers. Number three, belief number four positivity. And number five, activator they were my five strengths.
Patrick Kayton [34:58]
Wow, that’s it, can see exactly why you do what you do. And anyways, so strengthen, gauge and afford it’s worth my top five our strategic futuristic, individualised individualization achiever and learner, and anywhere to anybody who hasn’t taken Strengths Finder out there, I recommend you do it, it only cost you $10 online and search for gallop plus gallops Clifton Strengths Finder. And, and anyway, the product we’re releasing is we’ve built in collaboration with the Strengths Finder coach, who has spent years developing a unique IP that combines positive psychology with Strengths Finder IP, and he’s been using that to help people understand their strengths better, and take advantage of them. And one of the most powerful things that he’s focused in on is that he says people ultimately want to be useful. They don’t want to feel as though they’re not useful in some way. And if they can find a way to tap into their their usefulness, their efficacy and realise that they’re just fine, exactly the way they are, there is a position in life that will take great advantage of their strengths, then you’re going to you’re going to see a person blossom, you’re going to see them come into full bloom. And, you know, I think one of the things he’s pointed out is that, you know, he’s seen really successful people and help them sort of understand their strengths better. And he realised that many respects, the only reason they’re really successful is that a combination of factors, and in their lives, and their combined strengths. And they were put in a position where their strengths were going to be successful. And because of where they were, if that makes sense, you know, so you know, your strengths, I’m not surprised that you’re really good at doing what you do. And that’s a perfect combination of strings for maintaining fantastic enthusiasm, and, and getting people to see that the power of the, of the future and of the potential of the people you interview. I mean, it is no wonder that people enjoy listening to you. And, and some sometimes people just haven’t found that congenial work, that fulfilling thing, that thing where they’re going to be useful, as soon as they do the combination of natural strengths, plus that that that context will make them comfortable, you know, positively be set on fire with with with with passion and with fuel for success. And it’s simply just a matter of understanding what it what combination of factors make you really powerful and useful. And so we’re really proud of that product, and we’re looking forward to releasing it soon. I will be
David Ralph [37:23]
I think that’s gonna sound amazing. I really do because we promote Strength Finders 2.0 a lot on this show. Because it is, well, when I took that test, I think the first free I kind of went, yeah, yeah, okay, I’ll go with that. And then the last two, it’s taken me a while to realise but by a part of my makeup as well, and it’s pushing me forward. And it’s fascinating. When you take this test, it kind of knows you before you know yourself. And it doesn’t just get those words out. And Barrett goes, it gives you a plan to then develop those things. And I’ve been very focused on sort of building that side of my, my character up. But I like that because it’s practice typical practical advice to go and do something, I hate it when people go find your passion, find your passion, and you will never work again. And you just want to punch him in the face. Because so many people out there, they don’t know what their passion is. But by actually doing a test like that, and actually analysing yourself. It’s the star, isn’t it? He doesn’t give you all the answers, but he’s a star.
Patrick Kayton [38:24]
Yeah, absolutely. You know, a lot of those, I think your experience about I mean, I’m not a Strengths Finder expert, I’m not a partner in the seminary is an expert. And you know, he could talk about this a lot more intelligently than I can. But I think it’s a quite a common experience to look at your top two or three and go, yep, that’s me. And then the other ones go, Hey, and I don’t know, I’m not quite sure how those ended up there. But when you do understand them, and the purpose of our strengths and gauges to is to understand them on a very deep level, and understand how the company of that how they work together, and to cause you to react in different ways in different situations, sometimes very positively something I was about to positively. And we’ve seen, you know, amongst our whole team, people working through these things, and, and really blossoming because they get to come to terms with things that they didn’t think were so positive about themselves. And, you know, things they might have struggled with, and not having worked through the the product that we’re building ourselves, and people are being liberated. It’s,
David Ralph [39:24]
it’s funny, isn’t it really, when, when it comes together for you, I now feel that it has come together after 44 years, I’ve now found the thing, but it just lights me up, I found my passion. But it’s amazing when you find that thing, how easy everything becomes, you know, you do work incredibly hard, and I do longer hours than I’ve ever done. But it doesn’t seem like I’m working, it just seems like I’m enjoying myself. And other people kind of migrate towards you. And the fact that I’m having this conversation with you, Patrick, maybe six months ago, I couldn’t proceed. But you speak to one person, I like how you interact, and then they link you with somebody else. And it just kind of it flows takes us back to that john bellows poem about the part of the river, you know, it just keeps on moving. And it does once once you hit your streams, everything kind of becomes easy. And you realise that for years you was swimming against the tide all the time.
Patrick Kayton [40:19]
One of our business partners has a partnership with a neuroscientist, a neurosurgeon. And there’s a lot of neuro science right now and research is being produced to that quite simply and unequivocably shows that the more time you spend on fulfilling practices, the healthier you are, and it’s quite clear, and there’s a whole chain of chemical events that take place and what one of them fruit, the easiest one to explain, for example, is that the biggest return chemical return that you get on an effort in your life is when you do exercise, it’s 100% focused on yourself. And you get a complete sort of don’t demean hard from I’m doing exercise. But equally, so being engaged in a job where you don’t enjoy what you’re doing. And you don’t enjoy the people you’re spending time with. And you have to put effort into spending time with them. And you don’t you’re not involved in loving relationships and you have to put in and a lot of effort to maintain the relationship with your your other half. And all of those things take away from a healthy chemical state and cause you not to be very healthy, but positive loving time spent with loved ones good exercise, and fulfilling working environment and fulfilling and working experience all add up to a positive chemical state that contributes to a healthy life. And you know, these are things that people have been espousing for a long time. But without the research to back it up. The research is coming up now. And it’s quite clear and spend time on things that energise you spend time with people you love. And, and you’ll be healthier.
David Ralph [41:58]
You can all have it kick ass life, as the American say. And I think that’s totally true. Well, what I’m going to do now I’m gonna just gonna play the theme of the show. And we’ve already sort of alluded to this because your dad said an amazing thing. But life is never a straight line. And Steve Jobs said a similar thing back in 2005, which are based a whole show about, so I’m going to play these words, and I just want to get your flavour of how I make you feel. Maybe 10 years after he said them, this is Steve Jobs.
Steve Jobs [42:25]
Of course, it was impossible to connect the dots looking forward when I was in college. But it was very, very clear looking backwards 10 years later. Again, you can’t connect the dots looking forward, you can only connect them looking backwards. So you have to trust that the dots will somehow connect in your future. You have to trust in something, your gut, destiny, life, karma, whatever, because believing that the dots will connect down the road will give you the confidence to follow your heart, even when it leaves you off the well worn path. And that will make all the difference.
David Ralph [43:00]
Does that really make the difference to you, Patrick?
Unknown Speaker [43:04]
Yeah.
Patrick Kayton [43:06]
Yeah, it really does. You know, I’m actually a little bit emotional, and, and another speech well, and and for the longest time,
Jobs has been a kind of a, an icon. And
if you feel a little bit arrogant saying that, you know, I always try to say that very often think about, you know, what Steve, was Steve Jobs doing you think or either you, but you have been a Mac user since 2000. And an apple debo t wouldn’t quite call myself a fanboy. But, you know, a lot of what Apple does is just made sense. And I was rooting for them when they were about to go bankrupt. And, and so I’ve taken a lot of advice and a lot of leaves out of Steve’s book, at least the right ones anyway. And, and I think that yeah, that speech has been a constant source of inspiration to me, this is a herders. And I think he’s right. But I think that you have to do a lot of personal work, to be confident in those dots, you know,
you can easily just see,
what might seem like great ways for all over the place, but if you’re not doing any kind of personal work, and you kind of self reflection, then how do you know what you’re looking at in front of you as a decent dot? And and that’s just curious to me, you know, if you if you’re not a clear, effective thinker, if you don’t spend time thinking about how you think, then anything in front of you, it looks like a worthwhile reasonable does something to follow. And being a really great thinker narrows down the number of dots, gets you to recognise that what’s in front of you is a really great opportunity. And the dots
David Ralph [44:54]
go from being dots to stepping stones.
Patrick Kayton [44:57]
Yeah, that’s right. you recognise them as such.
David Ralph [45:00]
And I suppose what he says bear as well is exactly what your dad says, you know, life is never a straight line. It’s it’s all about squiggly careers isn’t it is all about doing stuff, and finding out what works. But taking something from that to the next point, no, life is wasted. No experience is wasted. And even if you’re in a position that you really don’t like, you can take something from that positive to to create the life that you want. Yeah, that’s very true. Indeed. I’m getting good at is Patrick. Hi.
Patrick Kayton [45:33]
Yeah, this has been a quite reflective experience just thinking about all of these things. Yeah, um, well, since I first received the email from me, you know, saying look back, and I’d like you to share that strength, futuristic, I’m always looking forward. But part of the reflective side of me is always looking back and as a way of thinking about how to look forward. And the best predictor of tomorrow’s weather weather is today. And, and the best way to of today’s weather, you know, if you want to look at it, anything logical would be yesterday’s. And I’m always looking back to try figure out what we did that got us to this point that is useful and is going to help us get forward and what needs to be jettisoned, what needs to change, and really great chat with a great entrepreneur in Johannesburg couple of years ago, and he said, He’s this rocket ship strategy for what made this business work. And he thought about this business in terms of phases. And, and the clients that got him to go lift the rocket off the ground, were kind of phase one, and they weren’t going to help them to get phase two. And he had to let them go to jettison that part of the rocket. And the clients that were part of phase two, and will help them to, you know, relieve the atmosphere and launch into space, but they weren’t going to help them orbit. And he had to let them go as well. And then what he found is that many of them came back. And because he had the confidence to say, you’re lucky, you’re not part of my future. But you’re welcome to join me again, anytime. And that helps us business be very successful. I think it’s a very useful way of looking at the world, you know, what’s what’s part of your past is not necessarily not part of your future. And it’s just another way of thinking about the decisions you make that move you forward
David Ralph [47:14]
to to use a song and I’m going to do some Let it go, let it go. And there’s a lot to be said about that isn’t it up, I was having a conversation with a chap this morning, actually, they all blow into one. And he was saying the number one killer of dreams is not comfortable. I always thought it was comfort. But he said it’s more the fear of losing what you’ve got, you’d rather do hold on salon, instead of actually going, look, there might be a potential that it goes a bit rubbish for a while, but I’m going to get this ago, people kind of go unnoticed is a job, thank God, I’ve got a job business, thank God, I’ve got this. I’ve got I’ve got a girlfriend, she might be a complete lunatic, but I’ll stick with her, where really, you should look at it and go, there’s plenty more lunatic girlfriends out there, there’s plenty more great girlfriends. Good Job says bad job. No, you can just try stuff. And it’s not be all and end all. And when I quit my job to do this, I knew that if it went badly wrong, I would do anything to just earn money. And it was a liberating thought that I would you know, work in a factory, I would lift heavy boxes, I would do anything just to support myself. And it made me realise that yes, I’ve got options because I was willing to create options.
Patrick Kayton [48:29]
Yeah, hundred percent. You know, the wise man, you brought up that point. And the psychological research is within as well, we’re motivated more by fear of loss than by again. And, and that, you know, the research is quite clear on that as well. And I also don’t want to sound hypocritically, hey, you know, I’ve made a lot of adventurous and sort of risky choices in my life that have paid off. But I continue continue to this day to be bound and shackled by fear of making decisions that will potentially cause loss. And in many areas of my life, business doesn’t happen to be one of them. But many other areas that I think everybody’s the same, you know, everybody’s a little bit hypocritical in that way, you can make great choices, and balancing risk and managing risk that have the potential for great reward. And that that puts you into a very fulfilling spaces in your life. But then there are other things other areas of your life, we’re just not prepared to manage the equal number equal amounts of risk, and, and you end up being motivated by fear of loss rather than by again.
David Ralph [49:26]
So just before I send you back at the end of the show, I mean, time to have a one on one on yourself, what would be your big dog on the timeline? Is there one thing that you can look back at and go? Yes, because of that, I am who I am today?
Patrick Kayton [49:41]
No, there’s not one thing, there’s many things and and meeting my wife was was was a major one. And having my daughter was another major one, you know, we’ve already spoken about business, the top things and that kind of history that goes back with that. But I think, depending on how you’re looking at your life, there are a million different and moments. And we’re way too complex to put it all down to one thing. And, and I’m comfortable with that. complexity is fun. And yeah, there are many different things, then that have many different dots. And even thinking of you know, laughs never a straight line makes you think of one straight line. Joining the dots makes you think of lots of dots and one line. But we’re all a combination of a huge number of dots. And making sense of different parts of your life means highlighting different lines that join up the different dots.
David Ralph [50:32]
It’s all about making Connexions isn’t it? Yeah. Well, let’s make a connexion. Now, and this is the part of the show when I send you back in time, like a young Marty McFly to have a one on one with your younger self. And if you could go back in time, and have a chat with a young Patrick, what age Patrick, would you choose? And what would you tell him? Well, we’re going to find out, because I’m going to play the theme. And when it fades you up, this is the Sermon on the mic.
Unknown Speaker [51:00]
Here we go
Unknown Speaker [51:03]
with the best bit of the show.
Patrick Kayton [51:18]
So 15 year old Patrick, and
you are probably feeling right now like you’re a little bit too old rascal. And you probably quite keen to get out of it and move on, move on to the next phase. But there’s something you’re missing, you’re really, really focused right now. And you’re passionate about writing and about literature and about reading and about movies and you want to contribute to that world, you want to give something back to the problem is you haven’t tried it yet. And you haven’t actually you haven’t written enough, you haven’t immersed yourself, and then we’ll save it for you. And about 10 or 15 years time, well, actually, about 20 years ago, time and video cameras are going to become pretty much ubiquitous. And you could add a few are gone slightly later, just make movies all the time. And but you don’t have that privilege right now. So the best thing that you can do is right. Unfortunately, while you’re loving the world of literature, you’re forgetting about mathematics, and you forgetting about one of the most beautiful creations that humanity has ever originated. And the result is your school results are going to take a slide that doesn’t really bother you at the time, but it’s going to really needle you for the next 20 or 30 years. Fast forward a little bit at a time. And now you’re at and you’re about to enter university. What you don’t realise what you do realise and you’re a person who loves connecting with other people is that you’re surrounded by fascinating people, and you get to figure out what makes them tick to learn about them. And that’s great. But you don’t realise is that you’re never going to be as free as you are right now. You’re never going to be able to explore as much as you can you think you’re explain but you’re not need to travel more, you need to move more of different kinds of people need to spend more time writing because you’re never going to get the chance to write again, like you will now. And I guess some speaking about regrets. But, and also to tell you that you’re doing a lot of stuff. That’s right. And you’re planting a lot of seeds that are going to one day grow into some really beautiful flowers. And don’t stop being kind, that’s probably one of the best things that you do. And don’t stop making good relationships with people. But realise that, and figuring out how to turn those dots in your life into stepping stones entails a lot of work. And you’re probably not working as hard as you can right now, again, like those results from high school, it’s really going to needle you later on. Because you’re a 90% student, you’re not a 60% student. So put more effort in, you can easily balance it with everything else would you do. And later on, you become a 90% student again. But by that time you making businesses take the opportunity to learn as much as you can read as much as you can write as much as you can. Your real work ethic, it comes later when you’re about 25 which means you’re going to waste the next seven years. So I’m from a word point of view. But what you will do well, and it’ll stand you in good stead for the rest of your life is you’re going to make great Connexions with people and carry on doing that, but putting on a little bit more work.
And that’s all I have to say to you for now. I think if you manage to stick to that into
you’ll be just fine.
David Ralph [54:31]
Patrick, how can our audience connect with you sir?
Patrick Kayton [54:37]
I’d say the best thing to do is to go to our website and cognition calm and check out what’s there. And that’s spelt in a very funny way co Ji and I see I n.com not the way you actually spell it in English. And and read about about what we do there. But otherwise, on Twitter, Patrick kitten and Pierre tr IC k, k y Tio n. And you can also follow cognition on Twitter as well, just co Ji and I see I N and and take a look at what we do. I hope you find it fascinating. You know, we we build a lot of products that are for corporate use, but the one we were talking about during the show strings engage and is definitely for you know, it’s for anyone that’s been using corporate since for us for by anyone who really wants to understand themselves better, and, and to find that thing in life that is going to make you feel useful and fulfilled and proud. And there’s also another product we have called the monumental life and which is 60 plus coaching guides to help you figure out how to lead a monumental life and a variety of different spaces and financially spiritually and healthfully. And I think between those two things, you can find a lot of guidance as well help you lead a richer, happier, more effective, more fulfilled life.
David Ralph [56:04]
Absolutely, we will have all the links on the show notes. Patrick, thank you so much for spending time with us today, joining up those dots. And please come back again when you have more dots to join up. Because I do believe that by joining those dots and connecting our paths is the best way to build our futures. Patrick Hayden, thank you so much.
Patrick Kayton [56:22]
Thank you, David.
Outro [56:24]
David doesn’t want you to become a faded version of the brilliant self you are wants to become. So he’s put together an amazing guide for you called the eight pieces of advice that every successful entrepreneur practices, including the two that changed his life. Head over to Join Up Dots.com to download this amazing guide for free and we’ll see you tomorrow on Join Up Dots.
David Ralph [56:51]
Do you know I felt like I’m because you bought the show it ended But no, it’s me again. Can you do me a favour I’m really looking for some five star ratings and we reviews on iTunes. It really is the Rocket Power that pushes you up. I haven’t wanted to ask before because he felt a little bit embarrassed about it. But now is the time that I need to make the move. So if you love the show, and you’ve loved listening to it as much as I have loved doing it for you. Go over to iTunes and look the David Ralph, Join Up Dots and all the reviews will be greatly appreciated. Thank you so much for everything you do. Thank you so much for simply listening. But if you could do this as well. Wow, we’re going to be we’re going to be mates forever. Thanks very much. Bye bye.
