Randy Rayess Joins Us On The Steve Jobs Inspired Join Up Dots Podcast
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Introducing Randy Rayess
Randy Rayess is today’s guest joining us on the Steve Jobs inspired Join Up Dots business podcast.
He is the co-founder of Outgrow, a new way to add interactive content on your business and website.
He also has a very interesting backstory to where he is today
Alongside his business partner Pratham, he started a mobile app development marketplace in 2012 called VenturePact.
This was a site for entrepreneurs to connect with mobile development teams.
The challenge at that time was that mobile app development was relatively new, expensive and it was hard to assess the quality and hard to ensure you are getting a fair price.
So this led them to create a marketplace to make it easy to find relevant teams but it was not easy to scale and acquire customers because of the pricing issues.
Instead of them giving up and saying “This online game doesn’t work” they put their heads together and came up with an idea to create a mobile app cost calculator.
How The Dots Joined Up For Randy
As he says “This turned out to be a game-changer for us as we were able to quickly give people a rough estimate and show them how the price varies by feature and by geography.
Not only did the calculator help us build trust with the client but it also helped us win over our mobile app teams as they knew that the person they were connecting with had a reasonable understanding of the price associated with the app.
People were very impressed with the calculator and the information they received on the results page that they started sharing it on listservs and forums, so we quickly received referrals to the calculator and it turned out to perform better than any landing page or ad we had ever tested.
So proof of concept time was good, and traffic was coming in, therefore so impressed with the results of the calculator were they that we built a SaaS tool called Outgrow so any marketer can build calculators and graders to improve their customer acquisition similar to what we had done.
The challenge we realized was that building a powerful calculator required dev and design work so we wanted to make this more accessible to all marketers and entrepreneurs.
And that is the perfect place to start today’s show.
So why do so many people give up when quite often the obstacle they face could well be the business that people are wanting help with too?
And where does he want to go from here, more and more apps, or simply scale outgrow?
Well lets find out as we bring onto the show to start joining up dots, with the one and only Randy Rayess
During the show we discussed such weighty topics with Randy Rayess such as:
Why so many companies need to focus more on their employees body clocks and prime time to work than simply getting them to the desk.
We discuss the basis of a creating a trust funnel, that helps to put the customers mind at rest long before they ever buy.
Randy shares openly the story of how they overcame the issues that had stopped their first business and wasn’t he glad they had those issues.
We go behind the scenes of Outgrow and highlight the issues that all businesses have that they solve with their brilliant system.
How To Connect With Randy Rayess
You can also check our extensive podcast archive by clicking here – enjoy
Full Transcription Of Randy Rayess Interview
When we’re young, we have an amazing positive outlook about how great life is going to be. But somewhere along the line we forget to dream and end up settling. Join Up Dots features amazing people who refuse to give up and chose to go after their dreams. This is your blueprint for greatness. So here’s your host live from the back of his garden in the UK, David Ralph.
David Ralph [0:26]
Yes, good morning. Good morning to you and welcome to the Join Up Dots. Thank you so much for all my long term listeners. And if you’ve just stumbled across us, thank you so much for for sticking with us. Now. Today’s show is going to be a good one because we’ve got the co founder of outgrow a new way to add interactive content on your business and website. But he also has a very interesting backstory to where he is today. Alongside his business partner programme. He started a mobile app development marketplace in 2012, called venture pack and base was a site for entrepreneurs to connect with mobile development teams Now the challenge at that time was that mobile app development was relatively new, very expensive. And it was hard to assess the quality and how to ensure that you were getting a fair price. So this led them to create a marketplace to make it easy to find relevant teams. But it was not easy to scale and acquire customers. Because of the pricing issues. People were just a little bit scared he pence. So instead of him giving up and saying this online game doesn’t work, I put their heads together and came up with an idea to create a mobile app cost calculator. And as he says, This turned out to be a game changer for us. As we were able to quickly give people a rough estimate, and show them how the price varies by feature, and also by geography. Not only did the calculator help us build trust with the client, but it also helped us win over the mobile app teams, as they knew that the person they were connecting with had a reasonable understanding of their price associated with the app. Total clarity from both sides. Now people will Very impressed with the calculator and the information information they received On the results page. But they started sharing it on listservs and forums. So they quickly received referrals to the calculator, and it turned out to perform better than any landing page or add bait ever tested. So proof of concept time was good and traffic was coming in. Therefore, so impressed with the results of the calculator were that I built a sales tool called outgrows, so any marketer can build calculators and graders to improve their customer acquisition, similar to what they’ve done. Now, this is the key part, but challenge they realise was that building a powerful calculator require the dev and design work. So they wanted to make this more accessible to all marketers and entrepreneurs. And that is the perfect place to start today’s show. So why do so many people give out when quite often the obstacle they face could well be the business that people are wanting help with. And where does he want to go from here more and more apps or simply scout outgrow? Well, let’s find out as we bring onto the show to start joining up dots with the one and only Randy Rayees.
Outgrow Randy Rayess [3:13]
How about yourself?
David Ralph [3:14]
I’m always doing great, Randy. I’m always doing great. And even when I’m not I lie about it as well. Because I do kind of think that if you get into that mindset, where and I’m very transparent on the show, there are days when you can’t be bothered, I can’t be bothered. But you have to almost kind of trick yourself into getting up and getting going by saying, Yeah, I’m good. Do you kind of have that mindset? Or are you quite happy to just slop around on the sofa in your pyjamas for a few days saying I can’t be bothered?
Outgrow Randy Rayess [3:46]
Well, you know, I think everyone has some bad days. But I think what you’re referencing and you can kind of tell your energy is infectious. So if you have this like very positive, strong energy, I like to call it kind of default state Positive, you know, where your default state is positivity. And sometimes you move out of your default state. But I think your your natural state is being positive. And I think that’s, that’s a very important quality to have. And once you think of yourself as default state positive, then that helps you get out of those moments where you have a bad day or the moments that were things are down. So I try to be like that as well. So I you know, I’m far from perfect. I definitely have negative days, but I try to be default stay positive, so on most days, and try to wake up and be like, you know, I should be happy. Not first reason, but this might not be happy as as kind of a default state. So I like that way. That’s the way I like to look at it.
David Ralph [4:41]
I agree with you totally. And I also think there are days where you just have to accept that actually, you’re a bit of a grump. You’re just a bit Moody, and I particularly like those kind of October Mondays when everybody’s going off to work and I sit on my sofa and I think I’m not going to do anything. I’ve watched YouTube videos and Netflix. And I kind of I only have to sit there for about an hour and a half watching these people walk down to the railway station and then I actually perk myself out because I’ve got that ability to do that by actually taking control of my time. Now with yourself Randy, let’s give an overview of what your day is like because obviously you are developing outgrow you’ve got many different things. What is the time at the moment when you’re speaking to us because I assume it’s quite late is it?
Outgrow Randy Rayess [5:30]
It is late. It is quite late is actually late at night us time. But so I usually will. I am kind of a night owl. I do. I find that once the we do have a lot of customers in the US and we do have international customers as well. But we I find that after customers leave like and they’re finished there. They leave their work kind of their work hours and then we have some Have some time to kind of be a bit more free and more creative and there’s less kind of inbound demand for my time. So I find that the the evening is, is time for some is kind of more free creative
David Ralph [6:16]
as interesting, isn’t it because most people get told that they have to be at a desk at a certain time. And lots of people that’s not a good time. Lots of them are like, you know, I’m not a night owl. I’m a kind of early morning person. So from five or four whatever I can be up and about doing it but by the time I get to about eight o’clock, nine o’clock at night, I’m ready from a bed, I can’t do it. Why do you think that businesses are still have that you’ve got to be there at a certain time because it makes more sense, but you look at people’s kind of biochemistry and their body clocks and work to the time that they’re going to be able to produce the best work back for you.
Outgrow Randy Rayess [6:57]
Know, this is a very great point and it’s really interesting. problem because I think if you look at the reason you kind of there’s multiple reasons. So one is, I think, the general concept like factory workers, if you look at the nine to five from like the early 1900s, when you were when they were building cars, you needed people on the assembly line in sync from nine to five, you couldn’t have someone come and eat on their own. And they just do it at work at 8pm or 11. Because it would mess up the whole assembly line. So you need people to come on time and leave on time. And then over time, now you’re like, Okay, well, for software work, you need to be working at the same time. And I think that it is very hard is if you don’t have part of a team is working from nine to five, if you have like a four person team, sub team, and you have part of two people working from 9am to 5pm. And then the other two people working from 6pm to 2pm. You have zero hours of overlap. I think that’s very hard. But I think what you’re trying to say is as long as you have some overlap, and you’re not doing support work where you really need like The hours are you you’re answering calls and you’re dependent on other people. And then most of your work in software, then you’re really just dependent on the few people on your team. So as long as you coordinate with them and have some overlap, then I think it can be very flexible. So I think it’s understanding, okay, well, first of all, if we’re not doing a run on an assembly line, we can be more flexible. But we need to make sure there’s some overlap and clear communication within the team saying, okay, you’re my three other people working with me on this specific project. You guys know, like, I’m probably going to be starting at you know, instead of starting at seven, where you guys are morning, people something seven, I’ll start at 10. But I’ll tell them in advance, and I’ll give them everything they might need for the first few hours, you make sure they’re notified about it. So that sort of that clarifies it. So I think those are important points. But it’s a very interesting question.
David Ralph [8:47]
Now, let’s talk about outgrowth. And because I I went across to your website, as I do, I do my research, Randy. And I was very impressed because it’s not just a mobile app cost calculator. There was so many Different things and surveys and quizzes that we know that the more interactive you can become on a website on a business to kind of bridge that I always call it not a sales funnel, but a trust bundle people basically want to have to put their mind at rest is a winner, isn’t it? It just seems obvious to me. So explain to the people out there who don’t actually understand what I’ve seen what you’re actually producing with outgrow and why it’s so important.
Outgrow Randy Rayess [9:31]
Sure, so that’s, you know, just funnels a great kind of high level way to describe it. I think. The way people communicate, you know, with their customers, the way companies can you give you their customers. It has transitioned. And they think in the 2000s, mid 2000s of transition to when people when we saw many companies start to create blogs. And that was where you could write content and you help educate people about things. And then recently, the transition that’s happening in over the last five to 10 years. If you take the blog, which is a static piece of content, and you complement it with more personalised pieces of content that information, things like a chat bot, a calculator, quiz, a recommendation engine and assessment, and that helps complement the blogs which give a lot of information, but aren’t specifically personalised to that specific person. So if a person comes on and is running 100 person company versus a 5000 person company, you’re probably going to give them a bit different recommendations. Whereas a blog post that kind of reading the same one, and so here, you can ask this person specific questions, and you can tell them if you know if it’s a management company or a management consultancy, or if it’s a software company, or if it’s e commerce company, depending on who’s on your page, they should probably see things that are more relevant to them. And so what we do at outgrow is we make it easy for marketers to build these pieces of content these interactive pieces of content without any design or technical skill.
David Ralph [10:59]
Now I could only just do it, because I’m a bit of a muppet when it comes to certain things and good. And I just click buttons and drag things around, or do I still need support?
Outgrow Randy Rayess [11:10]
And you so, you know, we may we, you know, we try to make it such that anyone can use it. So you could go in and build, build a quiz, build a chatbot, build a calculator. And the only challenge is if you have something with a math, so if you’re trying to build a very complex calculator, then as long as you know the math, then you can build it. Now if the math is something where you’re not a mathematician, or you need a mathematician from your team to help you with the specifics, then you know, there might be a need there. But I would say most cases, you don’t need help. You don’t need help to build it, you can build it on your own. And then for there are specific content pieces that where people build they’ll need help either from us or from their team to help them think oh, if I’m trying to recommend products, and I have signed up And product options, you probably want someone from, you know, you’re you’re either not only merchandising and different departments to help you think through how to decide which products to recommend and what logic you should build into your recommendation engine. And so that’s where you probably need other people. But I would say maybe 80% or so you can you don’t you wouldn’t need someone like, technical skill or design skill or specific math skills.
David Ralph [12:24]
But did you know Mandy, there was a moment there was a moment when you could have said, No, David, I don’t think you’re a muppet. I think you’re a sexually attractive, intelligent guy. But you just breezed past it. May I got up that opportunity to blow smoke up me and you didn’t do it.
Outgrow Randy Rayess [12:42]
I was preparing three months for the reply and thinking through how to respond to the previous part of the question that I missed that. All right next time you mentioned it, you can feel free to mention it later on. And I’ll make sure to
David Ralph [12:52]
I will, I will test you if I remember I would test you later on. So so let’s let’s think about it from within. Join up the dots. So so so somebody’s coming on and I imagine somebody is brand new, do they need a lot of content to make your apps viable to them? Do they actually have to have an established business? Or is this something that they can put on right at the beginning?
Outgrow Randy Rayess [13:18]
Yeah, you can do it. So you don’t need any any specific content to start with. You know, we have people come in, and if depending on their business, they can come in and say, Oh, you know what, let me just create an assessment to assess someone’s knowledge about x. So let’s say you have a course that teaches people about sales. And so you might create an assessment that tells someone assess your knowledge about sales you may need you ask them seven or 10 questions and you ask, and then you can give them a score based on their answers and you show them a results page that says, Okay, well, you have good understanding of sales prospecting, which you can have some help with sales, negotiation and closing, or whatever it might be. And so that would be just a very quick way to start. So what we see A lot of the people who are very early on we’ll start with like simple assessments, which just help assess people’s knowledge or understanding or, or maybe even assess someone’s like, if you’re security consultants, you assess their security, the current security processes you have in place. And that’s a really good way to start. And then the more advanced things, if you have a new company, and you don’t really have a lot of products yet to sell, you’re probably not going to build a full on recommendation engine, because you might only have one product, so you’re not going to go a product recommendation tool, and you only have one product to sell. And so that would come later on. So just depends on on where your business is and what stage you’re in.
David Ralph [14:35]
So people generally how they used to do it maybe two or three years ago that they would have a website, they’d have a blog, whatever, they would get people on a lead magnet, but even start doing email marketing, drip drip drip out, maybe lead them into a webinar. With what you’re doing here. We can basically set different channels so we can speak the right language. To each person and not just get every customer in one big bucket, hoping that one person will reflect and respond to the content that we’re actually producing out it’s far more tailored based on their problems and their issues. They tell us and then we show them the channel that’s gonna help them
Outgrow Randy Rayess [15:21]
that’s that’s such a good way to summarise it. Yeah, I think was you know, we call it segmentation. And that’s exactly what it exactly description. So basically, someone comes through your funnel, your, you ask them a set of questions to give them the assessment output or the calculator, the ROI math, but through those questions, you now are able to segment and say, Okay, well, based on this company size, and the, you know, the number of you know, the number of people they have in you know, let’s say their marketing department, I can I know that they’re going to generate they’re, they’re going to generate like $20,000 of value from our software, and they’re probably going to be on one of our larger plans. I’m going to route this person directly to sales. Then someone might come on they’re new, they’re small business, they’re gonna go to your, you know, a free plan or a or a freelancer plan that you might have for first freelancers, and then you might give them send them to a free trial or you send them to an to an email list. And then if they’re really early on, and they’re not ready to buy, or even, you know, try out your tool, you send them, you know, your newsletter campaign, you might send a webinar, and so you can really segment and based on the answers to questions, and put people in the right kind of email campaign or marketing campaign or sales or send them directly to sales based on the information you have.
David Ralph [16:35]
Now, I know a lot of people understand the concept of this but actually building it in the background. They get confused with this channel and that channel and this segment and this campaign, how does it actually operate behind the scenes so the customer lands on the website, they answer a quick survey, what is the engine behind like, Is it something but once again, people pretty much know where they are in the process when they’re building it and when they’re adding trigger points to push people to the right places.
Outgrow Randy Rayess [17:10]
Yeah, yeah. That’s that’s a very good question. So the way I like to look at it is usually though, the way you think about you asking people a set of questions, right? Most of the time, you need to be questions up to usually 12 questions. He hasn’t three to 12 questions and at the end, and you want to give them a result that is powerful, want to give them something on the last page that shows it was worth your time to fill this out, so that they’re more likely to share it, they’re more likely to trust you, right? Because that’s that that part in the trust funnel, as you mentioned, is really important. And so the question is, you know, that I think you’re asking is you have these set of questions, and then you have this results page, how do you determine what result speech to show? And then how do you determine which segment to put the person in? Right, that’s the that’s the key question you’re asking. Absolutely. Yeah. And so, so for the segment, it could be You can choose what you want the segment to be. It could be question three, let’s say you have like, seven, you know, seven questions, question Three’s Company size? Or Question four is and how many people in your sales department? Or you know, what’s your monthly marketing budget? Whatever the question, you know, you can choose as your segment based on that. Or it could be, you know, it could be a question around, you know, which quarter this year are you going to, you’re looking to, you know, say you have a question like, oh, you’re looking to invest in a new sales optimization software, someone says, Yes, and you say which quarter, and then based on the quarter they select, that they’re looking to invest in, you put them in a segment for like, you know, six months down the line segment, or whatever. So you can use that just based on the questions you see, okay, people who answered like this for this question, go into the segment. And you can configure that directly with any basically any email marketing tool very natively in outgrow, so it’s very easy to do. Now for the other part, which is how do you determine? So that’s how you determine the segments. The other question is, how do you turn off the results page? For an assessment that’s relatively easy, you ask them a set of questions around the processes they have in place. And then you have a set of processes that you think are ideal. So you can say, sales team might need sales development reps, and you ask them, How many sales development reps Do you have relative You see, relative to account executives think that ratio is off, you can mention, you can say, Okay, well, if the ratio is greater than five to one, then you can put a recommendation on the results page saying, hey, you seem to have too many accounts, too few sales development reps based on the current ratio that you have now. And so you can say for each, let’s say you have five points you want to highlight on the assessment. For each of those points, you set up, you come up with a logic, which could be as I mentioned, that the ratio was off. It could be you just ask them specific values that they have or specific time they spend, you know, you clean your data. You clean your email marketing data, yes. How often do you clean your Marketo marketing unit does SVD do duplications? If they say yes and yes, then you can give them a score of an A if they Say yes and sorry. They say yes and monthly, you can give them an A if they say yes, and quarterly, you might give them an email or something like that. And so you’re going to the logic is it’s kind of doesn’t require any advanced knowledge to do that. But you just need to see first decide, okay, what are the key variables or things I want to highlight? And then what’s the math that I want to use to determine that?
David Ralph [20:21]
Let’s listen to Jim Carrey. And we’ll be back with Randy,
Jim Carrey [20:23]
my father could have been a great comedian, but he didn’t believe that that was possible for him. And so he made a conservative choice. Instead, he got a safe job as an accountant. And when I was 12 years old, he was let go from that safe job. And our family had to do whatever we could to survive. I learned many great lessons from my father, not the least of which was that you can fail at what you don’t want. So you might as well take a chance on doing what you love.
David Ralph [20:50]
Now and classic Join Up Dots territory, I want to take you back leaving what you’re doing without grow at the moment taking you back to that moment, where you and your partner Problem had started the mobile app development marketplace venture pack. And Ben got into sticky territory. How did you overcome that? Because it seems obvious to me as, as I said in the introduction, but your obstacle that you hit actually became the thing that other people were struggling with. And so you found this solution, and then boom, you sort of moved through. But there’s going to be a time when the two of you in a bar and you’re going, Oh, this is rubbish. This is rubbish. Nothing’s working. Tell us about it.
Outgrow Randy Rayess [21:31]
Yeah, that’s a that’s a very interesting question. It’s a very interesting kind of story of how this kind of developed for us. So I think we, my co founder, prosom and I are both kind of very open to experimentation. And we saw that most of the people coming into our marketplace, were through referrals. And so it was like our referrals of friends, friends of friends and then through customers and For such and the issue we kept on seeing was that the sales cycles were very long, because you have the mobile apps at that time. Were so new, right? So because the mobile app store kind of had just launched a year or two before we started, and so they were there wasn’t like anyone, you know, over one or two years of mobile app development experience. And these were the these were the people who knew everything we started as soon as mobile after started. So most people had like zero years of exposure, zero exposure to mobile apps, and at least the development side, and then very few people understood the pricing. So we saw that, well, the pricing is a big problem. And that’s where we started to say, Okay, well, why don’t we experiment with with a calculator because that will help first, bring people into our flow. Secondly, we’ll educate people and our sales people felt like most of the time, they were just explaining to people educating people about you know, the specifics of how mobile apps work and how development works and how many features and what an MVP concept is like, minimum viable product. So there was a lot of education that we had to do for each person. And before we were able to get before we’re able to get the basic specifications, and then we can get a price and then we can see if it’s even relevant, or if they have the budget, you have so many levels. And so this calculator ended up being powerful on so many levels. And so I think we just went through, we realised that referrals can only get you so far. And then we have this big problem and we’re like, hey, let’s try it. And that was kind of our attitude is always let’s try this.
David Ralph [23:34]
But there must have been a mourning stage. I think we all go through mourning stages in our business, and then we look back on it and we go actually, that was quite good. That was quite good that we weren’t happy with where we are. We wasn’t happy with the customers we were getting. Sometimes you have to sort of let it settle for a while and and not fight it and just kind of as I say sit in your pyjamas with your beer and your bag of Doritos and go this is cool. This is rubbish.
Outgrow Randy Rayess [24:03]
I agree, I agree that you have these down moments, we had multiple down moments because we used to run a lot of experiments. And 80% of them were would like fail. And I think we use a lot of marketing experiments. So we’d run like ad experiments, we and we, what we saw was that the reason why most of our marketing attempts were feeling was because we were we’re only getting a marketplace, so we only get a fraction of the revenue. And now looking back, it’s very clear to us, but at the time, it wasn’t very clear to us. But now you can see, we only getting a fraction of the like from a deal but only getting we’re getting a small amount from each deal. Whereas the the people actually doing development, they’re getting the whole they’re getting most of the lion’s share of the revenue, but they’re doing most of the work. So mix kind of makes sense. But when you’re doing most marketing campaigns, their willingness to spend is much greater, because they’re getting the whole pie. So so what happens is our ad, our ads the cost to acquire customers were so high because of this competitive climate, that most of the things we were running and attempting to do with Sam. And so this was a period where we were like, everything is every aspect of referrals, and that that kind of gave us the heart of the business. So referrals and those things gave us kind of a slow, steady growth, it was very slow, very steady. And the thing is, the percentage of growth kind of quickly goes down. Because at the beginning, if you only have, you know, 50 customers, if you’re able to get, you know, five extra a month, that’s pretty good. But once you have, like 305 extra a month is a much smaller percentage. And so that’s the issue with referrals. And we can solve that. We ran all these experiments, and it was like this period where we were just like, well, this isn’t this ad isn’t the solution to moving beyond referrals. So this was this kind of phase, which is like, how do you move beyond the referral business? And that was our bottleneck, I would say.
David Ralph [25:51]
I think everybody’s bottleneck when they start is that belief, but if I build a website, they’re going to make sales from it. They don’t see the end. That’s operating behind it the fact that potentially I would say 2% of all my sales come from the first landing, I would say 98% come somewhere down the route. It could be six months, it could be two years, but people are sitting there, hold ring around looking coming back. Now, with that, obviously, one of the big things is retargeting where you put cookies on your website so that when people land on it, you’ve been know where they are. And some of the Masters out there, it still blows me away, that I can go on a website, have a look at it. And then when I’m on YouTube in the evening, they pop up and I say, Oh, we saw that you didn’t quite click through on my thing. This is clever stuff. Now, have you got involved in all that as well about the retargeting and the cookies?
Outgrow Randy Rayess [26:47]
Yes, Yes, we are. We are involved in that in two ways are involved. First, we use that for ourselves. And the second is we enable, we enable this for our customers. You know, one of the cool things that we get to do is we get to work With the best marketers in the world, because a lot of the marketers using our tool, at least in the early days were like the most innovative marketers who are kind of ahead of the trends. And so they would come in and they were, they would ask for, like thousands of things. So, you know, we think we have a very powerful product and even early on, and now they kept on pushing us to improve. And so one of the key things they said early on is, hey, we need to be targeting because we’re only going to ask for the email later on down because we’re gonna summon seven questions, then we ask them for their email and show them the result. We want to retarget the people who leave after question three. Yeah. And we want you to tell us what they gave us in question one and two and retarget based on that, so we not only say we target but segment that we targeting. So we build that because customers came up with them like this is a genius idea. We built it and so now we allow for that retargeting and it’s actually really powerful because you know that someone like you say you’re selling shoes and someone said, you know, your favourite player question when there’s LeBron James. Now you might not have I might never have about your email. You never reach the end, but Your favourite players LeBron James. I have retargeting pixel. And I know I can not only just retarget you but now I can put you in a segment for LeBron. And so you choose of LeBron James or of let’s say, you know, Messi, or Ronaldo, Cristiano Ronaldo or whatever it might be, you answered and now I can. Now I can target so the retargeting is much more personalised. And it’s really, the conversions are so much higher, because it’s now it’s, as you mentioned, it’s not the first touch point anymore. It’s now a second touch point, maybe maybe a fifth touch point, you never know how many customers they had before the first contact he’s interacted with. So you know, it has to be multiple touchpoints in most cases, just because of the amount of information people are exposed to in any one time. It’s hard for them now to make decisions on one page.
David Ralph [28:45]
Now, that is obviously one of the big pieces of the puzzle that people don’t know until they get into it. And as you say, You tried 80% of your things failed at the very beginning. Where are you now? When when you look back, do you kind of go haha? Yes, it’s obvious. Ah, we should have seen it because I certainly do. I look at the majority of things that have failed over the last eight or nine years, I look back on them now. And I think it’s obvious why they failed. It’s so obvious. I don’t know why I couldn’t see it at the time. Where were you in that kind of laughing and looking back at how stupid we were?
Outgrow Randy Rayess [29:24]
I love doing this kind of exercise. Where are you going to look back and you evaluate the decision. And, you know, usually the standard thing to think is like, Oh, that was like, that idea was stupid. And this is obviously going to work. what’s what’s interesting, I think, is that sometimes there are a lot of this at that time, there’s a lot of things that you can do. And there’s always a way to look at something and convince you that this can work. And so, you know, most of the ideas we tried, were at least good enough for us at that time to think they would be successful. They could work But yeah, there’s certain things that we did like, the amount the amount of experimentation, we ran on different ads and things like that we thought it was, we thought it was like a problem with our bidding. We thought it was a problem with keywords like we thought these all these problems. So we kept on going down these rabbit holes. And so that kind of now look back and looking back kills like we weren’t as smart as we could have been, for sure. And then the cost calculator, it seems very obvious today to us. Because we’re like, we kept on seeing our salespeople spend so much time on this, like, why don’t we do this earlier. But I think hindsight is 2020. And you’re always, you know, you’re always gonna have these situations where looking back things look easy, but at that time, there were a lot of other things that also seemed like they could work. So
David Ralph [30:47]
So sometimes it will work but it’s just not the right time. It’s either not the right time for your knowledge base, or it’s not the right time for your business growth. You know, I’ve actually spent a lot of time in lockdown clean So much of the stuff that I’d kind of half built, or it didn’t quite work over eight or nine years, that was all in sort of Google drives and different things. And a lot of it. Well, I was going to get rid of it. I actually thought, No, I’m gonna keep that that’s not far off the truth here, you know, but it just coming to didn’t match up with either my personal belief, or my customer’s personal belief in me, I think there is a part where the two have to join up, where you kind of go look, actually, I’m bloody good at this. And I know I’m bloody good. And the customers go, yes, we believe you’re bloody good. And Ben, sort of the magic occurs?
Outgrow Randy Rayess [31:41]
Yes, I think that’s true as well. I think, you know, I think it’s, it’s really interesting. It’s really interesting to kind of find what what is that right messaging that works and kind of people understand because we know that our tool is very powerful because we’ve seen so many people go through it and a lot of these people spilled all these customizations. And so we’re very confident that what we have is the perfect product. And from a support standpoint, it’s amazing thing is how do you communicate that in the right way. And so that’s something that’s always a challenge, especially with a new category. So I think the communication part is also hard to to get right. And it changes over time. Like at the beginning, this concept of interactive content, there was no it wasn’t really a category, no one was searching for it. So at that time, if we just said, we just thought of ourselves as interactive or personalised content, like that was not something people were searching for. And so it wouldn’t make sense to do that. And so I think nowadays, it’s starting to come up a bit more. And so it makes a bit more sense than it did five years ago. But I think then maybe in five years, it makes a lot of sense. So I think you know, there’s a lot of variables changing over time as well. That makes it more complicated.
David Ralph [32:51]
Now, with viewers, I’m looking at your pricing at the moment, he got a range of pricing from very affordable $14 a month which is probably about 9% A month, all the way up to sort of a business of 600 a month. Now, what do people need to do on top of this? Do they need to vein pay for say, MailChimp, Aweber or other integrations that unrequired? Or can they quite simply buy this, and their whole lead generation works from your platform.
Outgrow Randy Rayess [33:25]
So, depends on the stage of the business. So most of our customers that are established companies will have will integrate us with it with a system. So it could be MailChimp, it could be ConvertKit, it could be a Marketo. It could be part off it could be we have so we have a wide range of integrations. So most of our customers are doing that. And then they’re implementing outgrow, you can kind of embed it within a page as a chat bot, as a full on landing page. It kind of depends on how you want to embed it but we have a wide range of options. But for really early on if you’re on the smaller plans, and many of them will just use this as a landing page and Then they configure basic emails through our tool, and they don’t really need anything else, they’re just starting with that. But then as you as you get more users, and you want to run email campaigns, like drip campaigns, you’re going to get an email tool, like specialise on that. And so most people will then get a MailChimp as well. And then as they move forward, then they’re going to get like a big gonna probably get a full on website beyond just a landing page. So it just depends on the stage of the business. But I would say the majority people have at least an email tool like for drip campaigns. And they can start with just a landing page as a lead gen form. But then they’re going to have a website as well, too, and then have us as a as an add on to a website. So that’s, I would say the majority large majority
David Ralph [34:43]
because at the moment, I’m researching a drop shipping company, but I’m very interested in and I’ve been going over because I’m very much about building content and building organic traffic. And I’ve been looking at these these web pages, their websites But absolute rubbish you go over there, they have no organic traffic, they just throw up this web page. And they make like about 700 sales a month. You know, it’s astonishing how quickly you can build a business. If a you’ve got a product that people want, and your pricing is right, it’s it seems very sort of easy and obvious. And I think a lot of people do get caught up with making it look really pretty and lovely logos and stuff. And believe me, there’s this company that I’m thinking of starting here, the competitors are doing really, really well because I know that because I bought the products, and I could see what number invoice I was. And so I then went back and looked at when they actually registered their company and I could see how many months and years I’ve been going. And so I kind of did the math, and yeah, it’s absolute rubbish or pants as we say it’s complete pants over here. It works. It just works. It’s a product that people are looking at They want the prices right? And the delivery is good. Boom. People don’t have to spend a long time getting a business up and running, Billy.
Outgrow Randy Rayess [36:09]
Yeah, well, that’s true today. I mean, 20 years, 2030 years ago, that was a different story. But I today with all the software that’s available, it’s amazing how fast you can get up and running. But that also makes it much harder to get get attention and distribution, because in the past, there was only a few companies in your category. And now there are so many more. So it makes it easier to start, but harder to grow. I would say
David Ralph [36:32]
a lot of them are rubbish. Well, aren’t they? If you do your market research, and you look at these companies, a lot of them I wonder how they’re actually doing it Really?
Outgrow Randy Rayess [36:42]
Yeah, well, some people are experimenting, they’re doing it as a side, side hustle, this kind of just exploring the waters. And so you’ll see that or some people are just they haven’t been exposed to the most modern kind of design tools and software and so they’re using They might be using technology or design methods from 20 years ago and they haven’t kind of realised that there’s so much more available today and so you see that that’s probably why there’s a gap. And over time that will that gap will get thinner and people will get more educated and find and get better but it’s hard it’s hard to build a great company and build a great online site and there’s so much so much so many variables so many moving pieces to get right so it’s hard for small teams to get it all right.
David Ralph [37:30]
And jumping back with this Jim Carrey speech that we played earlier. Is this your love now is just a company that you love can you only see this getting bigger and bigger? Are you Is this a stepping stone to something else?
Unknown Speaker [37:45]
Outgrow Randy Rayess [37:48]
I think, I love I love the variety of customers they get to work with and I enjoy this creative process of coming up with all these all these, you know unique ideas for what companies can do across a wide range of industries. And, you know, for me what I love it, I love learning I like to read, I’m curious person. And I enjoy like just good conversations, and creative ideas. And so those are all things I enjoy and kind of what I’m doing now, it kind of fits with that well, because I spend most of my time figuring out how to make outgrow, you know, our software easier for people to to use and, and how to how can we help people come up with great ideas for them to build and then how do we help them be successful with it? So I think all those areas are just a lot of fun and a lot of and I enjoy doing it, that said, you know, we never know what’s going to happen in 510 years. So I think I kind of I always have an open mind of what’s gonna what’s gonna happen in the future. But, but it’s fun for the most part, I’d say you know, there obviously are days where you have rough days or you have issues, but for the most part, I enjoy it.
David Ralph [39:00]
Yeah, I agree with you. I think for the most part I, I always say to people, if you can find something that you like, 75% of the time, you’re doing really well. You know, I’ve done a couple of shows recently, where I’ve been very open about having to do my tax returns and stuff. I hate doing it. It’s like, you know, and every month, I think I get more organised next month. And so I’m not having to spend three days doing it solidly. And being I look at it, and I never do, and then I have a three day burst. It can’t all be good.
Outgrow Randy Rayess [39:32]
Exactly, exactly. Anything that’s an issue. If you come up with a comment with the expectation that you think your job or whatever you’re doing should be 100%. Good. Because I think you are setting yourself up for disappointment, when you assume 100% of the things you’re going to be doing are going to be, you know, perfectly aligned. In reality. 75% is amazing. I would say at least based on my experience.
David Ralph [39:54]
Yeah, I agree. Heres Steve Jobs.
Of course, it was impossible to connect the dots looking forward when I was in College. But it was very, very clear looking backwards 10 years later. Again, you can’t connect the dots looking forward, you can only connect them looking backwards. So you have to trust that the dots will somehow connect in your future. You have to trust in something, your gut, destiny, life, karma, whatever. Because believing that the dots will connect down the road will give you the confidence to follow your heart, even when it leads you off the well worn path. And that will make all the difference.
So following those words, when you look back, Randy have your dots joined up. Can you see the pop or is it just a total mess that you’ve been? I had no idea how I got here.
Outgrow Randy Rayess [40:44]
I do see I do see them joining. I see them joining you know this is you know where to go to college meeting my co founder. The the job the work that we were both doing and then the explosion of the mobile app store and then The background in math that got us through the calculator, the background in engineering, they got us to do this company. And then from that the dick, you know, we became really interested in marketing because of the marketing problem. And then we did the calculator. And then we ended up building a marketing software tool. And now we work with marketers all day. And we ourselves are marketers. So I think we can connect the dots. But I agree that you know, with Dobbs and the fact that he’s just so hard to connect them going forward because of so many variables that are involved, like a very crazy multivariate equation or function that you can kind of really design it with predictability moving forward. It’s really just looking back that you can see how they connect,
David Ralph [41:46]
is what i’m trying and I’ve been trying for seven years now is to get people to understand but listening to podcasts, reading books, and all the kind of stuff that people think they’re doing to help them move forward is not as good as actually doing stuff. And it may not be stuck, you end up liking, so then just scribble that off and say no, I’ve tried that. I don’t like it. But there’s always something even in the bad times that helps you move forward, I can see it as a seamless path to where I am now. And more often than not, the rubbish were the things that helped me speed forward. Yeah,
Outgrow Randy Rayees [42:25]
yeah, the challenges you know, the challenges is what helps you grow because if something works out, then it kind of you didn’t really learn as much because you you thought something would work and then it worked. But we could learn if you thought something was going to work and it doesn’t. Or if you didn’t think someone something could was gonna work, but someone convinced you to try it. But you still weren’t 100% in and then it works and you’re like, Oh, I learned something. I thought it was not gonna work. But I, I was like, Okay, fine. We can just try it and then it worked so easily when things are different from your expectations. That’s when you learn. Yeah,
David Ralph [42:59]
and even a month. Pitt like me can create a nice income online, so it’s not bad.
Unknown Speaker [43:04]
You got it, you
David Ralph [43:05]
got it. I’ve been waiting, right? So the aim to see if I could trick you into it. You’re good. You’re good. Even at middle of the night, your brain is still active, good stuff. Anyway, this is the part that we’ve been building up to. This is the part that we call a sermon on the mic, when we’re going to send you back in time to have a one on one with your younger self. And if you could go back in time and speak to the young Randy, what age would you choose and what advice would you give him? Well, we’re going to play the music and when it’s bait, it’s your time to talk to each other. This is the Sermon on the mic.
Unknown Speaker [43:44]
We go with the speed of the show.
Outgrow Randy Rayees [44:03]
Great. So I would probably choose myself talk to myself in my teenage years, probably somewhere around 1415. And I would basically explain a few things. The first thing I would say is that, like, don’t worry too much about Don’t worry too much don’t stress too much about things. Try to be more free and focus on thinking and learning and not make and not having this perfectionist mindset. I think the a lot of math because of this, I have a strong math engineering kind of background and mindset. The mindset was, oh, like, you could kind of be perfect in math or engineering. You could, because there’s always a right answer and a wrong answer. And we’re but whereas like in business and in real life, things don’t work like that. It’s not It’s not like a situation where you’re either perfect or doing the right thing and doing the wrong thing. There are multiple right things and multiple wrong things. And it’s much more complex than than getting you know, a perfect score on an exam or a perfect score or just like fully understanding and mastering a specific math or engineering concept. And I think that’s important to kind of get move away from this perfectionist mindset and to be more free
to just enjoy enjoy the moments enjoy the journey.
So that would be the main thing I would also say like
to experiment I kind of did that a lot in college, but even in the earlier experiment with with different job opportunities, different industries, different roles, and you can learn from each each exposure, each industry you work in each role. You title, there’s just so much to learn and just go in with an open mindset and not think that oh, I can only do you know, sales I only do marketing I only do product should only do engineering should only do customer success, but have a have a mindset of Let me try these things and see what I like and what I dislike about each of them and there will be then I can make the decision and not just focus on making decision beforehand.
Unknown Speaker [46:25]
And I would
Outgrow Randy Rayees [46:26]
say that, you know, don’t expect to any job to be perfectly you know, expect you know, there to be these rough these these where things go wrong. But start each day with a mindset, this positive mindset but with an understanding that things are you know, stuff happens things go wrong and just and don’t let them get ahead of you focus on solving the issues and not being surprised when they come up. So those would be a few things I would say.
David Ralph [46:51]
Right staffing wise words for everyone that’s listening today. So Randy, what’s the number one best way that our audience can connect with you
Outgrow Randy Rayees [47:01]
Sure, so the best way to connect with me personally would be email. So Randy Roboto or twitter.co, forward slash Randy raise or LinkedIn, which is also when you raise and then connect from a business connected company would be outgrow.co.
David Ralph [47:19]
Right Stuff, we’ll have links in the show notes to make it as easy as possible for people to connect. Randy, thank you so much for spending time with us today. joining up those dots. And please come back again when you’ve got more dots to join up, because I do believe that by joining up the dots and connecting our paths is the best way to build our futures. Randy right. Yes. Thank you so much.
Outgrow Randy Rayees [47:39]
Thank you, thank you. This is great. enjoyed it.
David Ralph [47:43]
So chat, bots, quizzes, surveys, I was talking to him afterwards. And he said the conversion rate is about 40%, which is huge to have something like this on your site, building people through the right segmentation, the right choice. To the right content, because that’s how a lot of businesses struggle, especially if it’s a business like mine, because I do quite a few different things. If you are selling, as I was, say flowerpots, then it’s a lot easier because people are coming along and you’re just selling one type of product. But once you get into something that is a bit more varied when you really do need to move your customers through the right channel, so if they’re interested in, for example, podcast coaching that I do, then they get told about podcast coaching, if they are wanting to start a business, if they want mentoring, the right avenues, open up to them, and you’re speaking the right language for that customer. It’s very, very interesting. And one of the things I think most people don’t do at the beginning, they don’t really think about their avatar. They don’t think about the avatars problems, and they don’t think about how they can channel the content. So it makes that natural path. running our business is is run Keep our really and if you do it right at the very beginning, it helps you so much moving forward because you’re not having to go back and change things and, and move things around and stuff. It’s really good, really important. And if you need any help with that you can either drop me a line, I will point you in the right direction, I’ll meet up with you and I’ll show you myself. Until next time you look after yourself and for anybody out there that’s thinking of starting to make a move into online business. There’s only one place to come.
Unknown Speaker [49:33]
Are you ready to make a full time living online? Check out the amazing Join Up Dots business coaching. Hello, my name is Alan. And I’ve just completed the excellent eight week course with David
Unknown Speaker [49:43]
before I started working with David Actually, I had no idea at all where to start.
Unknown Speaker [49:49]
I had a lot of ideas about what I probably thought was going to be good business timing, he was able to help me through that bio to find that passion within literally minutes. We had, we had a business idea. And
Unknown Speaker [50:02]
for the last seven weeks, we’ve been building on it and building on that. And the position I’m in now,
Unknown Speaker [50:07]
I don’t think I’ve ever got here
Unknown Speaker [50:09]
on my own because of the amount of information that David gives the structure. He’s got the full package here, and he explains it in a way that I can understand. His support is phenomenal. I feel like this is the way business is supposed to work. David
Unknown Speaker [50:24]
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Unknown Speaker [50:49]
or both. It’s an exaggeration to say David will totally save you years. Thank you, David for your amazing help and support which keeps on going and we certainly Couldn’t be where we are today without you so you’re awesome.
David Ralph [51:04]
So if you would love to become my next success story and have your own life changing online business following my step by step system, buying tuned over many years to take away the effort and expense that others struggle with, then come across to Join Up dots.com and book a free call with myself. Let’s get you living easy life as it’s there waiting for you to get it right is Join Up dots.com business coaching.
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